Originally posted by ssstupido 

About me not wanting the world to change, you are completely wrong. i wish that MMO worlds would change, but on a global scale, not instanced for a single player. Completely agree

like the example someone put above me. on GW you didnt see any vendors until you completed a certain mission. THAT SUCKS!!!! what are we? living on parallel worlds inside already parallel servers? if that means inmersion to you... to me inmersion is when my acts affect the whole world i am playing, not only my watered down copy of it. Must be crazy to put GW as an example of inmersion FOR A MMORPG.

worlds changin is what horizons did (i think it was horizons, but it could be ryzom). Players had to work together to discover new territories that were later added to the game. Also, if i recall right, new races were added also when players discoverd them. and those changes were made for every player, not just a single hero. sssssshhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!! shut up!!!!! wow fanboys do not like to know that a certain game did something better and before

world shaping is what SWG had with player made towns. Towns that were there for everybody, not just those that built the city. Or EVE Online conquerable regions and player made settlements. I think that EVE conquerable regions falls a little short. yes, you can conquer regions, get sovereignity and even build outposts. but those outposts can not be destroyed. Gates can not be destroyed or disabled either. I wish EVE would go further on with player influencing the universe.

What WoW has done is to close even more the already narrow gap between single player games like Oblivion and Online Worlds. To me, that is a big step on the wrong direction. QFT. I feel ashamed to see so many fanboys praise this awful feature. If this becomes a trend, we will not have any more online worlds (well, right now we dont have many left)

Originally posted by damian7

Originally posted by apertotes

so much red is confusing you. if you think EVE is such a bad game, just forget about it and find a better game. but i think that  you are simply jealous cause you didnt succeed on the game and thus you feel the need turn it down for the rest.

unfortunately for you, you are not succeding here either. EVE is a wonderful game, and more than 250.000 players are enjoying it.

what is funny is that during your last interventions you have completely forgotten about the topic of the thread (whether a new player can compete or not) to focuss on a few perceived problems. i pity you.

 

jita (general) >> the problem with this game through the eyes of a pvper!

 

blob warfare - pos warfare - are these not items which are pvp?  are they somehow pve?

i think stupid people are bad.  i think ignorance is bad. i think delusioned individuals are horrible.  i like eve.  there are parts which are broken -- anyone who says these parts are NOT broken - either don't know what they're talking about, or they are lying.

it's really that simple.    eventually the gbtw bug will overtake those soaked in weaksauce. 

oh, i see. it all comes down to it: you just didnt read the OP and came here to troll. now we can continue the discussion, at least we know your intentions. but i must say you are very bad at trolling.

so much red is confusing you. if you think EVE is such a bad game, just forget about it and find a better game. but i think that  you are simply jealous cause you didnt succeed on the game and thus you feel the need turn it down for the rest.

unfortunately for you, you are not succeding here either. EVE is a wonderful game, and more than 250.000 players are enjoying it.

what is funny is that during your last interventions you have completely forgotten about the topic of the thread (whether a new player can compete or not) to focuss on a few perceived problems. i pity you.

really, get over it. EVE is a great game. it is not perfect, just like any other game, but it is the best MMORPG available nowadays. its population has been constantly increasing over the last 5 years. guess what? that means new players are signing in faster than veterans are leaving. these new players are smart enough to understand that total sp means nothing. a player may have 70 million sp, but maybe most of them are on industry, or science.

even if all those sp are on combat skills, he could be flying a interceptor and die to a new player flying a HAC or even a destroyer.

and another thing, although you probably wont understand this argument, but i will leave it here for those that can grasp deeper concepts. the average sp of all EVE players is rising slower than the average rate at which a single character gains sp. this means that, yes,  a new player will be able to be someday at the top of sp charts if he is pacient enough. although that only matters to thick minds like the OP and a few others.

this dude, damian7, keeps posting how EVE devs say that pvp sucks, but he hasnt provided a single reference. in fact, those references do not exist cause that is a lie. EVE devs have never said that pvp sucks, or that the game is broken.

the fact that the game is constantly improved and balanced is no proof whatsoever that the game is broken. its clear this guy is obsessed with EVE Online and probably cant stand its success. too bad for you. the game is great, is successful, and new players are signing in every day. they'll never have as many sp as veteran players, but they know that in a short time they'll be as skilled as anybody on a single category of ships. what any noob is able to understand on 2 days, you are failing to grasp throughout all this time.

Originally posted by damian7

Originally posted by kishe

You do realise that even the player who has been there for two years only uses about 2-3 million skillpoints at a time?

 

 

 

maybe, if they're flying a frigate.

now, if we're talking about heat, which we should be, for all the bonuses, you have the below three skills, no matter what you're flying.

1 thermodynamics (512,000 sp required just to obtain) - prereq - science lvl 5 - 256k sp, energy management lvl 5 (which requires engineering lvl 5 - 256k sp)

2 nanite operation (256,000 sp prereq) - mechanic lvl 5 - 256k sp

3 nanite interfacing (+24k sp) - mechanic lvl 5 + nanite operation lvl 3 - 24k sp

 

now, are you flying something with rig slots?  are we talking t1 rigs or t2 rigs?  t2 rigs require lvl 4 of the appropriate rigging skill in order to use.  those are rank 3 skills, so you're looking at about 135k sp for each rigging skill you'll need for the t2 rigs you want.

 

defenses?  each armor and shield compensation is 90k - lvl 4, or 512k lvl 5,  4 types - EM, explosive, kinetic, thermic.  plus things like hull upgrades, shield operation, shield management.  we're looking at a couple of million just for shield tanking or armor tanking.

 

there's a lot of engineering/electronics skills that can give you an advantage no matter what ship you're flying.  add up to a few million here no matter your ship.

navigation?  there's easily a few million SP here that will be used no matter what ship you're flying, even moreso if you've got an mwd or ab.

 

say you're in something that only uses small turrets, sure, that's only 256k to get a rank 1 gun skill to level 5, which then unlocks a couple of specialties (rank 3s, which will max at 768k sp); but, you also have weapon upgrades, advanced weapon upgrades, controlled bursts, gunnery, motion prediction, rapid firing, sharp shooter, surgical strike, trajectory analysis -- 9 gunnery support skills.  now, if i have all of those to level 5, and someone else has them at level 0 thru 3...   at any rate, if i'm in a frig shooting guns, i'm using all of those skills JUST shooting my pew pew.  the support skills go up to rank 6.

that's using just guns as an example,  similar examples can be made for both missiles and drones.  if you're flying a frig that uses a combination of attacks, you're using all the support skills associated with said attacks, along with the one or two skills which affect only the weapon you're currently using.

 

so, if you just died and docked and you're in a rookie ship, i can see how you may only be using several million sp in it; but, even in a frig, you're using a lot more SP (if you have them)... this isn't including *advanced* skills like cloaking.

 

that's a lot of SP, usable in any ship in which you fly.

 

i have 60 million sp, and i havent completed any of the "general" skill trees you are talking about. there are 400 million total sp, and out of those 400 million, probably 150 or 200 are placed on secondary skills that are useful on any ship (drones, engineering, electronics, mechanics, navigation, leadership, gunnery, missiles).

so, if anybody had those skills to level 5, they would have a great advantadge over any new player, even with a similar spaceship command level trained. but, as you should know, nobody has all those secondary skills trained to level 5. some people get on without drones, others wihtout electronic warfare, others without shields or armor skills, many more do not even train mechanic skills, or havent maxed navigation. in the end, most players fit most of their sp on spaceship command and their weapon of choice. that is why a new player will be able to compete, cause nobody has completed engineering+electronics+drones+navigation+mechanics+leadership

Originally posted by gillvane1  

Skills do the same thing. If you can take any skill you want, then there will be something that is close to an optimal build, no matter how you design the skill system.

what is the optimal build for EVE?

Originally posted by charris1980

OP: one word. teamwork. everything you said is appropriate for solo pvping, but if you gathered 5-10 others, i don't care if they've been playing for 10 years and have 90 million points, you'll probably win that fight.

not even that. a 90 million sp player may not be pvp trained, or may be caught unaware on a weak ship or with a npc fitting. on those cases, even a single noob can win a 1vs1 fight.

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Those ratings were given BEFORE the Siege "crashes". Just as intended by FunCOM.

The printed magazine UK PC gaming was last to publish and it gave 73%

Now that the real face of Conan is out at 5 frames per second in the 48/48 Siege battle systems, the drops in ratings will be even further.Even on 8800 GT's now.

FunCOM didn't include these siege battles btw because they KNEW the game coudn't be animated with 96 people in one place.

That's why they waited: to cheat the "professional reviewers" and hence sell a few more copies to innocent people wanting to like a new MMORPG. I was in open beta I saw it and I predicted it.

It all happened just the way I said it would go with "Age of ...". The game is beheaded by its own system requirements which are dated 2011.

The market IS there, the Conan product is not.

dude, your self-praising has just got you blocked enjoy your new status. i cant stand your grandeur ways.

btw, i think AoC is an awful game, but not cause of its graphics.

Originally posted by gillvane1 

It is irrelevant whether your character increases in power through levels or skills. Both accomplish the same thing, an increase in power.

i agree about levels, i think that having them wont automatically turn a game not-sandbox. but i think having classes is terrible. and the problem is that levels almost always come together with classes.

also, levels often use XP to advance, and XP is usually adquired by killing mobs. and that is a problem for non-combat chars. the moment a healer wins XP for healing, and a crafter for collecting spices or cutting down trees, and a trader for selling and buying, then levels would be a good alternative for a sandbox game.

but as long as non-combat chars are forced to do quests or farm mobs to advance, then levels will be a problem for a game to be sandbox.

well, WoW had even better ratings, yet the game is possibly the biggest backstep on MMORPG history. ratings mean close to 0 as long as they can be influenced by marketting and $$$$$$

Originally posted by remusus03

Originally posted by apertotes

Originally posted by Aguitha

Totally agree with the OP.  I tried the game, loved it, but stop playing cause there is no point.  You'll never be able to compete against peoples who've been playing for 3 years.  I'm sure CCP could get at least as much of peoples playing the game if they could open up a new servers and gives new players a competive chance, i know i'll jump in right away, but they wont.

 

i have 2 characters, one has 55 million sp, the other has 28 million. if they were to fight, the 28 million would win almost every time. the younger char has specialized strictly on T2 cruisers and battlecruisers, and is a fearsome sleipnir/vagabond fighter.

the older char is a great miner, industrialist, inventor, trader and corp manager, but cant fly any combat ship bigger than a destroyer.

who would you bet your money for on a 1vs1 fight?

 ur forgetting something the point was  about PVP char going up against another PVP char mate ....not a carebear char against a pvp char.
 

no, that was not the point. the point was that someone claimed that it was impossible for a 8 million char to win against a 10 million char. and the beauty of this game is that sp means really nothing, because they can be expended on many different skills. that is why  A NEW PLAYER IS PERFECTLY ABLE TO COMPETE, WHETER ON PVP OR ANY OTHER LAYER OF THE GAME.

WoW is as sandbox as Doom 3

Originally posted by Aguitha

Totally agree with the OP.  I tried the game, loved it, but stop playing cause there is no point.  You'll never be able to compete against peoples who've been playing for 3 years.  I'm sure CCP could get at least as much of peoples playing the game if they could open up a new servers and gives new players a competive chance, i know i'll jump in right away, but they wont.

i have 2 characters, one has 55 million sp, the other has 28 million. if they were to fight, the 28 million would win almost every time. the younger char has specialized strictly on T2 cruisers and battlecruisers, and is a fearsome sleipnir/vagabond fighter.

the older char is a great miner, industrialist, inventor, trader and corp manager, but cant fly any combat ship bigger than a destroyer.

who would you bet your money for on a 1vs1 fight?

ok, this is going on nicely. but still i need feedback on some games, and whether they can be called sandbox or not. this games are:

- Horizons: i am inclined to believe that it is not really a sandbox, altough the crafting is excelent

- Linage 2: seems that altough it is PVP focused with sieges and all that, it isnt really a sandbox games. opinions welcome

- Neocron: i have no experience on this game at all, and opinions have been contradictory so far

- Asheron Call: same as above. more opinions needed

- Fallen Earth

- Earthrise

and i would like to thank all those that took the time to share some memories with us. those that started with WoW and linear games are all they know are missing all those great things

Originally posted by jakojako                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        
True, in no game can a noob kill a 3 year old player, but in every other game that noob has a CHANCE to eventually get to that 3 year old player's level and CHALLENGE him/her.

yes, do you know why? because those 3 year old players are artificially capped at level 80 and cant progress any further. how on earth that is a better solution to you, i do not know. i know i prefer to play a game where my advancement will never be halted just to make it easy on new players.

about the rest of your post. really, you just proved what most EVE players love about the game: only smart people will succeed.

i have 2 characters, one has 55 million sp, the other has 28 million. if they were to fight, the 28 million would win almost every time. the younger char has specialized strictly on T2 cruisers and battlecruisers, and is a fearsome sleipnir/vagabond fighter.

the older char is a great miner, industrialist, inventor, trader and corp manager, but cant fly any combat ship bigger than a destroyer.

but that is not all. yes, there is more. EVE is the only game where 5 one-month old players will easily beat a single 5 year old player.

but do not go away yet. yes, there is even more. even a veteran character, pvp trained, can be caught unprepared on a vulnerable ship and get beaten by a much younger player on a well fitted ship.

and you know the best part? you will completely ignore this whole post cause its just unrefutable, and will continue to post your stupid nonsense garbling, and, and yes, this is the best part, you will remain away of this great game and refrain us from your presence.

oh god, how i love the internets

Originally posted by katriell

Ryzom

A couple years ago, a group of people from the RP guild I was in did a bunch of missions around Pyr, a desert city nestled between the roots of a colossal dead tree. Absolutely nothing forced us to do the missions, or even suggested we do them. The reward was merely a small amount of faction/civilisation/tribe fame. We each could've done them alone, had we asked around for the locations of materials that needed to be harvested and such. But voluntarily grouping up to do those missions, for our own purpose and on our own terms, was the most fun "questing" experience I've ever had. We ran all over the region, carrying messages and items across the dunes, massacring animals and bandits, finding requisite materials and digging them up together, peppering our maps with landmarks, and roleplaying all along the way.

And so many more memories, of PvE invasions...participating in storyline events that set the stage for later events and watching the world change with those events (servers ended up with different storylines)...complicated politics between the factions of Kami, Karavan, Neutral, and a myriad of grey areas, and the 50v50-100v100+ territorial PvP that followed...treks between regions involving anywhere from one person meticulously braving the wilderness to dozens barging through the world obliterating everything in their path...harvesting for hours, a relaxing activity for me despite or, in fact, because of the nigh-constant effort to keep from getting killed by volatile material sources or preying creatures...collecting potentially interesting materials and then experimenting with different combinations of them in the crafting window to find out how to achieve good item stats - after 2.5 years I finally stumbled upon a combination that could produce a sword with both high damage and high speed (for its weapon type)...

Dude, that is great!!!!!!  i wish developers had played these games and knew how it felt. cmon, keep them stories comming!!!!!

ps: updated the OP's list with ATITD. i still have doubts on Horizons (there seems to be a debate about whether it could be called sandbox or not), L2 and Neocron. also, i would like even more feedback on AC. so come on, post your opinions. and dont forget your memories

Originally posted by Zorvan

Originally posted by apertotes

ok, i have doubts about whether the next games could be defined as sandbox or not: Asheron's Call = psuedo sandbox, contains level system

more opinions on this game would be helpful

Roma Victor = litter box

yeah well, as bad as you think the game is, is it sandbox or more of a mainstream game?

Lineage 2 = grinder, not sandbox as you have no real choice in builds or activities

,Dark and Light = worse than a litter box, even a mangy half-blind cat wouldn't piss in this one

yes, no the best of the games, but sandbox nevertheless, right? but, is it running still?

 Pirates of the BS = level and equipment based with quests, nowhere near sandbox

Vanguard = level and equipment based with quests, nowhere near sandbox

Seed = had promise, met an unfortunate end so we'll never really know

so it is definitively cancelled, right?

Neocron 2 = level and equipment based with quests, nowhere near sandbox

 

In conclusion, the ability to roleplay or a large empty world does NOT a sandbox make.

 

 

Originally posted by lupisenparis

To me I would think 'sandbox' would mean a game that attached a feeling of being enclosed or restricted.  I dont understand how having diversness could equate to a feeling of 'sandbox'.

well, i guess from a strict gramatical point of view, it could mean what you understand, but when speaking about games, sandbox style means the opposite of what you say: diversity, freedom, variety, options, "openness" (is that even a word?)...

i have updated the OP's list with Horizons, but i would like to know what is the actual state. is it running? is it cancelled? if it is running, can it be defined as sandbox on its current style, or is it more like SWG, that once was a great sanbox concept?

also i would like more opinions on Neocron and Linage.

thanks so far for your comments. and remember to write your memories.

Originally posted by lupisenparis

what is your definition of 'sandbox'

that the player can influence the game world somehow, and they have many ways to develop their characters not limited to combat (for example, crafters can advance by crafting, and do not need combat experience).

having a strong player supported industry/economy and politics is also a must.

not having levels is a nice extra, but not a real condition. although most (and the best) sandbox games get rid of classes and levels and focuss on skills instead.

Hi, welcome to Sandbox Parade. I would like to create this topic as a nostalgic place were we can share our favorites (either good or bad) memories from any sandbox game we have played. Why sandbox? well, because they are a endangered species. as far as i know, only EVE Online is succesful among sandbox games. despite their lack of economical success many of us long for a new and revamped UO, with all the features that made it unique, and today's technology (not only graphics, but UI, performance, etc)

So, if you have an unforgettable memory from a sandbox game you used to play (or are still playing) you like to share, this is the place. It doesnt need to be a huge or incredible thing, just something you miss on today's games. It can go from planning a complete industrial takeover to a simple conversation with friends on a galactic bar.

Only one condition aply. Must be something related to the sandbox style of the game. No raids or quests, unless they were somewhat infected with sandbox elements.

Also, i would like to make a list of all the sandbox games that developers have dare to create, and watch out their actual status.

1. Ultima Online (status = running, but it has lost quite a lot that made it special)

2. Starwars Galaxies (status = running )

3. EVE Online (status = running)

4. Shadowbane (status = unsure)

5. Ryzom (status = unsure)

6. Second Life (status = running)

7. Horizons: Empires of Istaria (status = unsure, running, but not on a good shape? updates would be welcome)

8. A Tale in the Desert (status = running 3rd iteration)

ok, i have doubts about whether the next games could be defined as sandbox or not: Asheron's Call, Roma Victor, Linage 2, Dark and Light, Pirates of the BS, Vanguard, Seed and Neocron 2

Please, tell me your feelings about those games, and point out those that you think should alse be on the list.

ps: and dont forget to write any unforgettable memory you have about those games