Originally posted by k11keeper

Is this some kind of joke question? I mean c'mon before WoW came out FFXI had at one point more subscibers then any MMO at that time. I think this guy must be kidding he has to be.

I think it's entirely possible he's not joking.  I probably wouldn't have given FFXI any notice (because I never really got into the FF series prior to it) if my son hadn't subscribed and showed me what it was like.  I was playing DAoC at the time and thought nothing could beat it, so I was very much in my own little world when FFXI came on the scene.  Even talking to some of my co-workers who play WoW now, they've heard of FFXI, but not really anything about it (other than "asian grinder" <sigh>) and subsequently they have no interest in FFXIV.

This thread pretty much sums up my feelings as well.  It took me 2 years to finally hit 75 in FFXI, but I started over once I hit 25 on my Hume because I wanted to be a Galka instead.  There was so much to FFXI that the journey was the game.  I took every opportunity I could to help out lower levels so I could re-experience some of those awesome moments.  I didn't care if it took 2 hours to get that one drop they needed... it was just such a memorable game.  I even leveled subjobs that didn't do anything for my main job, just to play the lower/mid levels again.  Heck I even memorized much of the Renkei chart just so I knew right away which skills to use with whoever partied with me.  Performing a "Light" skillchain for the first time was something I'll never forget.

Hopefully since FFXIV won't have character levels people won't even notice they are experiencing the journey and not rushing to "end-game", but I'm sure there will be those that expect to max out their skills in a month.

Originally posted by Drachasor

 

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Originally posted by Sixpax  
Very good points, and I do agree with you, but SE wasn't without blame either.  I spent a lot of time doing some of the things you mentioned while LFP but I know good and well that I missed party invites because of it.  Even though you could get just about anywhere in 5 minutes or so, if someone was LFP in the same zone that a party needed a replacement, they got the invite.  If SE designed it so that parties could summon people, that wouldn't have been an issue.  If you could put up your LFP flag as one combo and switch to another, that would have helped.  If each job combo had a unique ability that made them all (or almost all) worthwhile, that would have helped.  If they increased spawn rates based on how fast the mobs were dieing so you could get more parties in the same zone, that would have helped.

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I don't really think this fixes the problem, just slaps a band aid on it. I personally think the better solution is to make it so that parties don't have such rigid requirements (one tank, a healer or two, and dps), and in particularly moving away from having classes that are needed in a much higher proportion than the proportion of players who enjoy player them (healers, I am looking at you, though tanks aren't exempt here either). I'm happy to see Square seems to be doing both of these things in FFXI. This makes forming a party much easier, since you don't have to wait for an uncommon player. Combat mechanics will be different of course, but there are many, many fun games out there without dedicated healers and tanks that use tactical combat, so it is quite doable. Hopefully party size will also be pretty flexible (quite possible as well if most xp come from quests, since given the quest system they've described with a little scripting it could easily scale with party size).

 

While that idea sounds good on paper, I don't see how that can work.  If you can kill the same mobs that a "holy trinity" party can kill, then it would be more efficient to do so without a dedicated tank/healer because you'd put out more DPS.  So you wind up alienating the people that do play pure healers and tanks because they'd just slow down your TTK.  To fix that problem you have to adjust mob difficulty so that the party with the dedicated tank/healer can kill more difficult mobs at a slower pace and the party without a dedicated tank/healer can kill less difficult mobs but at a fast pace.  But... that's actually how FFXI was designed.  Merit parties are a prime example of parties with no pure tank or healer.

As for party size, I think that should be viable, and in FFXI it was to an extent.  I remember not having full parties and killing T/VT mobs.  It worked but wasn't ideal.

Originally posted by WSIMike

Originally posted by Sixpax

I said this before in another thread, but it's worth repeating... the problem with FFXI isn't that it is group dependent or that there isn't anything to do while LFP.  The problem is it isn't group friendly.  It always blew my mind when there were 30 people all LFP and all sitting in Jeuno waiting for that invite.  That's the problem that FFXIV needs to address, not the lack of solo content.  I think for the most part people don't mind a group dependent game, what they do mind is not being able to group easily in a group dependent game.

The thing is... how many of those 30 people were even trying to assemble a party themselves? That's the thing... Back then, sometimes finding a group *could* be difficult, yes. But many times, more than some realize, a full party was right under their noses... but they wouldn't have known it because they were all waiting for a party to come to them instead of taking the initiative and putting it together themself.

A good friend of mine was *constantly* in parties. I'd ask her "how the heck do you find parties so quick? You just logged on 30 minutes ago and you're already xp'ing". She'd respond, "I put them together". 

Also, as far as nothing to do while waiting? Crafting, farming, fishing, gathering, socializing (believe it or not, that can be an entertaining way to pass the time), questing... Nowadays on top of all that, there's FoV, Campaign, soloing (since it's a lot more feasible).

I think part of the problem is that many people are stuck in this mindset of leveling being the only useful activity in the game to their character, when the reality is there are *many* activities in the game that can be useful... If I had a nickel for every time I"ve seen people complain about not having money, yet when you ask them what their craft is or what they harvest, they say "nothing... crafting is boring and I can't stand harvesting". Suggest that they do some of that while seeking a party and they respond like you just told them to jump off a bridge.

So many perceived problems in FFXI (and in other MMOs) are self-imposed by the players themselves, yet they blame the developers for it. The developers provide the content... they can't force you to do it if you don't want, but it's not their fault if you don't (not you personally, Six)

 

Very good points, and I do agree with you, but SE wasn't without blame either.  I spent a lot of time doing some of the things you mentioned while LFP but I know good and well that I missed party invites because of it.  Even though you could get just about anywhere in 5 minutes or so, if someone was LFP in the same zone that a party needed a replacement, they got the invite.  If SE designed it so that parties could summon people, that wouldn't have been an issue.  If you could put up your LFP flag as one combo and switch to another, that would have helped.  If each job combo had a unique ability that made them all (or almost all) worthwhile, that would have helped.  If they increased spawn rates based on how fast the mobs were dieing so you could get more parties in the same zone, that would have helped.

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Sixpax

I said this before in another thread, but it's worth repeating... the problem with FFXI isn't that it is group dependent or that there isn't anything to do while LFP.  The problem is it isn't group friendly.  It always blew my mind when there were 30 people all LFP and all sitting in Jeuno waiting for that invite.  That's the problem that FFXIV needs to address, not the lack of solo content.  I think for the most part people don't mind a group dependent game, what they do mind is not being able to group easily in a group dependent game.

I've never played the game. What makes grouping difficult?

In FFXI, if you weren't one of the jobs in high demand (tanks, healers, bards) then you often didn't get invites very quickly for a party.  Typically this was because the vast majority of players were some flavor of DPS making them a dime-a-dozen.  Also, because of the difficulty level with killing regular mobs (for EXP), if you weren't one of the "preferred" job combos, you were overlooked.  Along those same lines, party makeup was very strict as well.  You couldn't efficiently kill mobs if you had 1 or 2 fewer people than max in a party, so even if there were 4 ideal jobs online seeking, you still had to wait for the extra spots to fill.  To make matters worse, travel times in FFXI could be lengthy, so parties looking for a replacement would often search for players who were nearby first, sitting in a major town for a quick teleport second, and everyone else last.  So you couldn't go out soloing in a lower level zone (to skillup and get drops) for fear of being excluded from an invite.  You also couldn't switch to a lower level job while waiting for a party with your higher level one because the LFP interface only listed you as your current job combo.

So basically if you played a DPS job combo and you wanted a party, you had to put up your LFP flag and sit around doing nothing until you got an invite.  Frequently, that invite would never come and you'd log for the night gaining nothing (unless you really, really liked crafting).

However, when you did get into a decent party, the game was 2nd to none IMO.  It made all the waiting worth it.

I'm calling shenanigans on this thread... nobody would legitimately make a claim about only having 8GB of total storage.

Gotta be trolling.

I said this before in another thread, but it's worth repeating... the problem with FFXI isn't that it is group dependent or that there isn't anything to do while LFP.  The problem is it isn't group friendly.  It always blew my mind when there were 30 people all LFP and all sitting in Jeuno waiting for that invite.  That's the problem that FFXIV needs to address, not the lack of solo content.  I think for the most part people don't mind a group dependent game, what they do mind is not being able to group easily in a group dependent game.

Originally posted by Wizardry

I will tell you that the problem is bigger than group limits and such,the problem as in most game problems lies with the players.

I have done quests in several different games that only pop up like 2-3 times a day.Ok that is VERY limited,so you would think ,when someone decides to form a group"if" they form a group,they would tell others in chat,so others can join and get the tough quest/s done.

What i have actually seen on MANY occasion is players will selfishly go alone with a high level guildie to hold their hand,and not care one bit about their fellow gamers.So while they are all cool receiving help,they are not so quick to help others,and this i have seen/witnessed A LOT.

So now this single player will complete a quest removing the chance for anyone else for several more hours before you can do it again.What makes the scenario worse is the fact you can clearly see there is others at the same location ,and there is only one reason for being there,to do that quest/s.

IMO these are not only selfish but rude players,those that receive help and never give back,i try to remember these players and totally ignore them or not buy anything off them from the AH,but it is hard to remember so many.

So you could make every mechanic possible to make grouping work,how are you going to convince others to take part?There is not only the selfish but ,what is the word? Introvert?how are you going to change introverts into extroverts?Grouping just makes sense,it is the reason you should be playing online,but you really have an impossible task of changing personalities,this is the biggest problem of all.

Hopefully the guildleve system will be designed such that you can't have a high-level/skill player power you through the quest (either by not allowing it or scaling their level/skill down to an appropriate number).

I agree with the poster who suggested having a more robust LFP interface.  I also think parties should be able to summon people, so that eliminates the worry about what zone someone is in when looking for a replacement.  I used to spend a lot of my LFP time skilling up different weapons in FFXI and often got passed over because others would camp out in the zone the parties were in (so of course they always got picked first).  Even though I had all of the outpost teleporters available, if I wasn't in the same zone, or at least in Jeuno to get a teleport, I was ignored.

I don't think people are necessarily against grouping, they are just against all the logistical problems of grouping.  Waiting long periods for an invite, long travel times, not playing one of the ideal classes, not being able to switch to another class while LFP, no content to keep you occupied while you wait, not being able to leave a group when you want/need to, etc.  Those are the problems that need to be addressed, and the answer isn't making it more "solo friendly".  FFXI was group-dependent, but it wasn't group-friendly.  For FFXIV, they need to keep the group dependency but make it more group friendly.

Originally posted by ic0n67

Originally posted by Sixpax

Originally posted by ic0n67

Originally posted by GlowingMoon

The character models seem kind of plain and uninspired and the armor models shown so far also seem somewhat bland and uninteresting.

 

Even early on in FFXI the armor was bland, which I'd assume it was by design. Having everyone look the same way in the beginning and then branching out to bigger, brighter, better models enforces the idea that we all started from the exact same spot and grew up.

 

But that wasn't the case with FFXI though.  Everyone looked the same in the beginning, and everyone looked the same in the end.  There was always a specific set of gear you had to get at your level or you were a nub.  Mostly this was AF gear for end-game, and two high level RDM's standing next to each other looked identical.  I got so sick of running into my "twin" in Jeuno.  I want to look unique and be an individual, not RDM clone #1351170.  Don't make one set of gear so much better than everything else that that's all anybody wears.  Granted there were very rare pieces that set people apart, but 99% of the playerbase couldn't acquire those.  More gear options and/or dyeable gear please.

 

Sorry ... never had that problem actually. Between the different races/head/height/job combos I rarely ever bumped into myself. Honestly I can only think of one person who had the same races/head/height combo as me that I ever interacted with on a regular basis ... and we matched on BLM gear just because he'd as me advice on what to get. Dye would be okay, but it would defeat the purpose of being bland early like i described. Plus you'd expand the AH exponentially or have the dye go away when you put it up on the AH. I mean I get where you are coming from there are times I wish my Assassin's Vest and Jet Seraweels gold so I can go all Mc Hammer.

But honestly the better question for gear is how a Taru can ware a pair of slacks that just came off a Galka ... i mean it would have to be stretched out beyond recognition.

I was referring to the gear each class wears, not the character features.  Perhaps I should have said "dressed identical".

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Originally posted by Xiaoki

Yeah, the leveling in RoM is pretty standard fare with its ups and downs but the real problem is that you have to do it atleast twice.

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Well technically you don't have to level a secondary class, but I get what you mean.

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Originally posted by Xiaoki

Also, you can only do standard quests once, which means if you clear out an area on your primary class the only thing left for your secondary in that area are daily quests.

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Personally I like that about RoM because it levels the playing field somewhat between the power gamers and the casual gamers. I usually do 2 or 3 regular quests and the 10 dailies each night, so I never run out of quests to do, even with keeping my secondary at the same level as my primary.

Originally posted by ic0n67

Originally posted by GlowingMoon

The character models seem kind of plain and uninspired and the armor models shown so far also seem somewhat bland and uninteresting.

 

Even early on in FFXI the armor was bland, which I'd assume it was by design. Having everyone look the same way in the beginning and then branching out to bigger, brighter, better models enforces the idea that we all started from the exact same spot and grew up.

But that wasn't the case with FFXI though.  Everyone looked the same in the beginning, and everyone looked the same in the end.  There was always a specific set of gear you had to get at your level or you were a nub.  Mostly this was AF gear for end-game, and two high level RDM's standing next to each other looked identical.  I got so sick of running into my "twin" in Jeuno.  I want to look unique and be an individual, not RDM clone #1351170.  Don't make one set of gear so much better than everything else that that's all anybody wears.  Granted there were very rare pieces that set people apart, but 99% of the playerbase couldn't acquire those.  More gear options and/or dyeable gear please.

I just hope this isn't the only thing they port from FFXI.  Better to copy FFXI than WoW.

Originally posted by Wizardry

Originally posted by HairyGoatBoy

Correct me if im wrong but isnt this game sounding like a skill based system? Job Class will be determined based on the weapon, armour or harvesting object currently equiped and used.  Sounds a little like Ultima to me. Perhaps if i equip my staff and cast a Fire 3 spell multiple times i will gain a .2 of a point that caps out at 100 for fire magic. That is what it sounds like to me.

Im not saying this is a bad thing but my rational says to me that the armoury system is a fancy name for a skill based system not a xp system. Im curious as to whether people agree or disagree with me on this.

 

p.s. on a side note are guildleaves just another name for quests that come on cards that can be traded and shared?

Actually,this system is sort of fake,because,it IS already in place in FFXI.The difference is that FFXI utilizes everything....class/weapon/spells/skills.Everything in FFXI had to be leveled up the exact same way,your different types of magic, your staff, your 1h sword,your 2h axe ,it all had to be skilled up.So there really is nothing new here,i can't see why they are panning off a streamlined FFXI as being anything new.The clas system is IMO a needed aspect of MMORPG"s.The reason is ,someone asks you what class you play in FFXI,you have to answer, there is no class,or i play everything at once,it just sounds wrong.

Gear and weapons already played the majority   role in FFXI,you had many choices of what you wanted to use,but you grabbed a sword and shield to tank,you loaded up on INT  gear to nuke,you loaded up on WIS to heal,nothing is changing here.it is really the exact same system.It has been easy for Square to claim they are making it easier for the player,but in reality this game design is making it MUCH easier for them to design.This game has replaced the time spent on content and replaced it with better graphics ,more detail.How well this is balanced out is a waiting game to see.

I disagree that this simplifies things.  In FFXI, level checking made things very easy for the programmers.  What weapon you could use, what armor you could wear, what monsters you could handle, what other players you could party with, what spells you could cast, how strong your healing was, etc.  You can't simply replace all of those checks with skill checks.  For instance, assuming you need a lute to cast a certain party buff, will my lute skill determine the strength of it?  If that's the case, then how do they program it so that I can't just skillup in town playing the buff song over and over?  If party strength is determined by comparing skill levels, what happens if I have 100 in lute and 10 in sword, so I cast the ub3r party buff before combat and then switch to my lowbie sword so it doesn't kill party skill-ups?  What determines whether I can wear a 100 armor plate helm or a 1000 armor one?  My helmet skill?

Originally posted by Portland

Wow !! i am glad i havent bought it exactly due to the reasons you guys list up above. 1st time i kept my fingers of a new released game in years because it was always the same.

inbalance, boredom, bugs etc etc etc..

 

glad i kept my 50€ 

 

 

Same here.  I had high hopes for Aion, had planned to buy it, and even started to get caught up in the hype, but after the Warhammer debacle I promised myself I'd wait at least a couple of months after a new MMO is released before playing it.  That way they have time to fix major bugs/balance problems and let's the server populations sort themselves out.  Plus it let's me find out how the community feels about it.

Glad I waited this time.

I think that's just the nature of the beast.  Really if you think about it, pretty much all games with an advancement system are grinds of some type.  Quest grinds, gear grinds, skill grinds, mob grinds, PvP grinds... you're pretty much just doing the same thing over and over.  That's how they (hope) to keep you playing.  The trick is how to make the grind fresh each day and/or how to disguise it.  I really don't know what else they (MMO companies in general) could do to get away from that other than have GM interaction with the game world to create spontaneity, but the only game I've seen even suggesting that is on hold right now (Hero's Journey).

• What's the most suitable tank combination?

Most people will tell you it's Knight/Warrior, but I disagree.  I personally believe the Knight/Priest is the best tank combo because they can reduce the threat generation of everyone in the group, and use heals to help mitigate damage on very difficult fights.  Heals also generate threat on all mobs so it's like having another AoE threat skill.  The bonus to this combo is the Priest/Knight is also the best healer in the game (see below), whereas Warrior/Knight is meh.

• What combination can provide a hybridization of crowd control and high dps?

I have to give this category to Scout/Rogue.  Mages do have some nice CC abilities but they can't completely incapacitate one target indefinitely like a Scout/Rogue can.  Plus many of the Mage CC abilities cause damage/threat to the target, which isn't necessarily a good thing.  Despite the stigma of the class, Scouts have the highest single-target sustained DPS on long fights.

• What's the best healing combo?

Hands down it's Priest/Knight.  They have the biggest heals (thanks to Divine Intervention), the most mana efficient heals (again thanks to Divine Intervention), the best buffs (thanks to Enhanced Grace of Life), and the highest survivability of all Priest combos (thanks to Enhanced Armor and Resilience).

• What's the most utilitarian combo?

Have to agree with RoMd00d here.  Mage/Priest gives you high damage, decent CC, and secondary healing power.

• What's the highest dmg combo in game?

For AoE damage, it's Mage/Priest.  For single-target burst damage, it's Rogue/Scout.  For single-target sustained (long fight) damage it's Scout/Rogue (a close 2nd goes to Scout/Warrior).

My ideal party would be:

Knight/Priest, Priest/Knight, Scout/Rogue, Mage/Priest, Rogue/Scout, and whatever the instance calls for as the last spot (off tank, second healer, more DPS, etc).

Originally posted by Wizardry

Originally posted by CDCosta

Originally posted by xiirot

I found the crafting in FFXI to be one of the worst out of any game I've played. I sincerely hope they do something different.

 

Really? It's actually up at the top of great Crafting in an MMO.

 

It was such a simple yet complex system, and it actually mattered if you were good at it and had a high skill.

No it was not very complex,it had a set of luck features that in their own offered very little influence.It had the 20 level gap for ++,it had the moon phases that offered around a 3-5% bonus or fail.It had a 3-5 level gap just to be able to craft or fail severely.There really was not much complexity to it at all.

To have complexity,you need several mechanics and FFXI crafting had next to none.Pop in your crystal ,pop the mats into the boxes and sit back and hope.

 I did like the size of the database,but i feel it could have used a little more thought into the crafts.There was the main ONE item every 20 levels or so,then the rest were just there to skill up on.I don't like the cap idea.i would rather see a game structure itself well enough to allow players to use any food anytime.I mean in real life is there an age cap other than booze? lol.

Sure FFXI crafting could be improved, but I can't think of any other MMO's that did a better job.  I hear SWG had decent crafting but I didn't get into that aspect in the short time I played it.  I liked how DAoC relied heavily on crafted items (many of which were better than any drops), but there wasn't much complexity to it.  All other MMO's I've played had terrible crafting implementations.

I think my ideal crafting system would take FFXI's as a baseline and add the ability to alter the item based on optional materials that you added.  That way crafters could experiment with different recipes to make something better than the standard recipe.  I would also add a quality rating to every material so the better the quality the better the crafted item.  Merchant bought materials would have an average quality, but materials you harvest/craft could be low or high quality.

Originally posted by CDCosta

Originally posted by xiirot

I found the crafting in FFXI to be one of the worst out of any game I've played. I sincerely hope they do something different.

 

Really? It's actually up at the top of great Crafting in an MMO.

 

It was such a simple yet complex system, and it actually mattered if you were good at it and had a high skill.

I have to agree.  FFXI crafting is better than any I've seen in other MMO's.  You need a craft system that's not easy to master (otherwise everyone and their brother is a maxed out crafter and the market is too watered down) yet worth every bit of effort you put into it.  FFXI accomplished exactly that.

To me, the problem with FFXI wasn't that it was "forced" grouping.  The problem was the logistics of grouping.  Restrictive job/level requirements, travel methods and times, not being able to seek with one job while playing another, and even the LFP facility left a lot to be desired.  That's the things people hated.  I know level-sync fixed some of that although I didn't play when they implemented it so I can't say whether it was good or bad for the game.

If they can keep the heavy group dependency and yet make it easier for people to find and get into groups, then I think they'll make (almost) everyone happy.