Originally posted by Nyast

Originally posted by Scubiedude

Only one sentence is needed to properly and completely answer your title question

  "Because they do not listen to what their potential customers tell them what they want in a game" !

And what do potential customers want in a game ?

You make it sound like all players are in agreement in what makes a good MMO. Of course, in reality it's different, and everybody has different opinions / expectations. So who should the developers listen to ?

Maybe you dislike WoW, but you're probably in a minority, as there are millions of players who enjoy it.

Did it cross your mind that maybe developers, by following WoW's path, are exactly doing that today: giving players what customers tell them they want ?

That is the real problem IMO. Few developers have a vision and are ready to go for a niche market, even if that means reduced revenue. MMOs and games, nowadays, are no longer a work of art: they've become an industry.

You are probably right  whene you say that "MMOs and games, nowadays, are no longer a work of art: they've become an industry." but i dont think is true the fact that if someone play Wow is becouse he like WOW. I have played WOW too, for 2 years ,and i have played it just becouse there wasnt anithing different and i was playing it olso becouse i ahd some real life friend playing it too , and i had a lvl 60 player , and there was an expansion near to exit  ... many reasons why i decided to go on playing wow. But the more important thing is that i was playing a game that was boring and i was going on for other reasons.

this is the result of the poll i did in this other link www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/206036
 

Forum Poll

which game you prefer?

Like Wow EQ2 etc....... 25.0%

A full realist game         46.9%

Something else             28.1%
 

Based on 32 votes.

Thx m8 . My english is realy porr... :-) i fixed it

Originally posted by erandur

Might want to change the topic's name, there's no pool here! :D And you forgot to add 'sandbow' games btw. You got themepark, second life'ish games and others. I suppose the others are sandbox games?

There is no poll here? 21 ppl have already voted .... probably some problems with your browser?

Originally posted by wjrasmussen

Originally posted by ianubisi

I've played quite a few very good MMOGs, so I believe your theory is false.

 

I agree.

Does anyone else find it funny that the OP and his followers are wanting the next big great thing and yet the devs they are bitching about are really just doing the same thing. 

i find funny that someone that has found what was looking for ,have fun to see that someone else didn't found it. this is funny... probably if you have time to leave message like this ,you dont like to play so much your game either you would not waste your time in this way...    oo you are right "the istance raid " start later....

we are having a long discussion on the link i writed before . if you got 2 min pls go there and leave your opinion

Just to find a better solution to our questions why you dont go here www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm  to vote? At the moment ppl that watch this website( and for the most are ppl very inteersted in MMOPRGs) say that 0% want to play WOW 80% a very realistic game as i described in this post and 20% something else. At the moment there are only 10 vote so please log in and vote. We will have our little statistic

This is just a pool to let me understand what ppl prefer and if there is a little hole for a mmorpg diferent from the same Wow clone.

The question is easy : you want a game that let you always win something , that doesnt let you loose your items , that can let you feel safe and protect without any kind of risk like Wow and clone of it are? or you prefer a realistic game that could be as much close to the rules of the real life? For exemple beeing able to kill your friends if they need to be kicked or having the ability to trade everything you want in every moment . I hope that with my poor english i was able to explain enought well this pool .For more detail on what i consider a realistic game you can check this post www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/205860

Originally posted by oby1sky

you are right , i had to talk aboout game designers  instead programmers but my english is realy poor.

Originally posted by Inf666

You have 50 mio $/€ in your pocket. The only thing you know is that WoW is an unbelievable success. Whom of the following do you give the 50 mio to?

1. Team A wants to make a WoW clone but only better. Goal: WoW players will see that the new game is similar and better than Wow and change. Chance of success seems to be high.

2. Team B wants to make a game that is not like WoW but innovative. There is a 75% chance though that the project fails because the game is not like WoW.

 

The investors WANT the devs to create a better WoW. If your boss tells you to create a second Wow, then thats what you will do. The devs and the programmers are simply doing what they where contracted for. If you want to see games that are not like Wow then make it so that noone buys a Wow clone and hope that WoW becomes unpopular. At the same time buy the crappy alternative MMOs with bad graphics and lots of bugs. Only cash and numbers count to the investors. No company cares for what a minority customer group wants. Its all about targeting the biggest part of the customer base to maximize the number of potential customers.

Our only hope is that some smaller independend dev team makes a small gem that grows rapidly (Eve online would be a good example).

 

@OP: I do like the game you envision. Its a sandbox with realistic features and true consequences. Do not forget though that most of the MMO players do not want realism but pure entertainment in a fantasy world. In simulations you will always have winners and losers just like in real life. Noone likes to lose and thats why realistic games never really succeed. People have to deal with a lot of crap in the real world already. Imagine logging into your game after a bad day at work just to see your house with all of your possessions destroyed or looted by some uber guild that consists of players that are online 24/7.

If your option are true then i would give 40 milion to the first team to make a clone better then wow  and 10 milion to the second team to make a game complitly different that could become a good job to the eyes of hard core players. If "XXXcompany" would make a game that the hard core players like , you would become a good company to the eyes of the good players and all your  products ,olso the crappy one close to wow  would  have a bigger chance of succes becouse the light players would  read magazine or hear hard core players friends that suggest games made by teh "XXXcompany" wich is able to satisfy every taste.Bytheway, i dont think that your options are complitly correct. Whene you say that "WoW players will see that the new game is similar and better than Wow and change " i dont think you are right. Im afraid that wow players with a lvl  70 lvl prist will never  choose to change for  Warhammer online whene a new expanscion of WOW is close to exit.If you add olso that players who want to stop plaing WOW ,are bored of that tipe of game,  im not complitly sure that they will choose a game so close to WOW. Peronaly i would not waste money giving 40 milion to the first team. I would risk pointing 50 milion on the second team , for the fact that Players that need to choose between WOW and a new clone WOW stay with WOW and players that stop to play WOW WANT SOMETHING DIFFERENT. Oltrought after so many years of WOW the players that want something different are realy much

For your final part of your post  i must admit that you found the center of the problem.I'm one that like to risk .Im a player that without the risk of loosing, not get fun.I have played many years to age of empire and the only thing that was letting me play more and more was loosing and trying to get better. I dont want a game where everybody are happy Always. I'm one of the players that, like you was saying, was getting to home late from work and as soon as i was logging in my Neocron i was checking that the Op had been stolen from a bigger guild looged more then mine. This was a bad feal but this is what was letting me have fun: i was feeiling the taste of a future Vendetta.I was starting to find alley between guild not very strong . We was fighting each other to get use to the fight and then we was fighting the big guild all togheter. Then whene you arrive to point that a guild is getting too big  The GM shoud help the lower side in some way without helping them too much , just enought to let the things be fair.what i think is that you will never have real fun untill you will cry for the lost of something. In neocron ppl where able to loot you after they had killed you. I lost many weapon in this way some of them where rare too but was too wonderful the taste to kill the F...ker that had looted me the day before finding in his Belt ,with big suprice, the weapon he had take to me the day before .Those are feeling that a WOW will never give me. Why i was talking about Call of duty in my first post? Becouse that game is getting every time better and better. Would not be too far from appling an economic systemt and let ppl Live inside that world ... / probably some year before(during the peace time) than the world where CoD is programmed.

Originally posted by erandur

Because we are held back by... reality checks! Having great ideas is one thing, actually making them work is the hardest part. ;) And it's actually a programmer's worst nightmare, heh. Having a great idea, and knowing you can't work it out. And if you do try to work it out, people call it vaporware (Darkfall).

You are perfectly right. The reason why im writing those things is to do something to let my dreams come true. Im not a programmer or someone that could make a game. I just played many games and i know how i would like mine. I know that the game that went closest to my wish is Neocron and that Reaktor killed that game with Neocron 2 . I know olso that Reaktor shoud have solved the lag problem instead pushing inside new stuff. I realy hope that one day someone will be able to make a game like this one or leven better... p.s. Neocron 2 will probably close but if someone shoud want to live it again now is free. dunno for how many time more

I think that as soon as a game need so much quests to be interesting , then isnt a realy good game. I think that the quests shoud come out by itself in a game. Think for exemple in the real life: inst a machine to tell you to go to collect 20 items , is the life it self that give you the quests. You work as a wood cutter? well will be your clients to ask for some wood and here it is the quest : go and collect enought wood for your clients.Probaby you are a joung cutter and you started to work for someone one that was juast a wood cutter? well he will order to go to take some wood , and if he will be an "A.SH.E" you shoud have the ability to kill him .  Are you a soldier? some weapons are required for the new villagers , so need to be built new weapons , so need someone to take some iron and a blacksmither is needed for building them. here is the quest. You want gooder weapons and you know that in the next willage there is a better blacksmither ? you go there to make your weapon and perhaps you bring the blacksmither of your willage with you. Probably the old blacksmither will let him learn how to make weapons better. Those are quests.but shoud be the playes to be the charaterof all those things not some stupid NPC with some question point over the head

Wow and all the clone of it need quests just becouse the comunity it self doeasnt realy exist. Few guild think at their members realy. DHP system is just a way to give to everyone items. Without it ppl would fight each other ( olso if they can't) to have that peace. in the actual system wow let the players think more for their self instead for the group. everyone think first for its own just becouse the only pint in those game is to show the last cool loot you have taken from the rare boss . In the system i'm describing every villager would try to have better neigbor becouse whene war will come the more they will be good the better will be for everyone.

Is the system of wow & company it self to give a "solo system" of play.The quests in a game like im describing would come from life it self and from GMs that shoud have special charater for let the story have a particulary backgroud . i dont know, for exemple GMs could have heros charater  or god charaters to lead villagers in epic battle but at the end the result of the batle and so the story line shoud come from the actions of players.

I realy hope that your project will work as this would give at least a compass to look better to all those mmorpg. The list game of mmorpg.com need realy an upgrade becouse the pvp column is too much reductive to have enought information to choose your favorite game , and second there are too much "?" .So the suggestion is to avoid as much as possible the ? from your list as this would not help the classification

Good luck m8 and tell me if i can help you in other ways.

you are right , i had to talk aboout game designers  instead programmers but my english is realy poor.

You are right whene you say that the companies choose just looking at money. What im asking my self is : there would be so few ppl that would like to play a more realistic game like the one i was talking in my first post?

I dont want to believe that i would be one of the few ppl that would buy a game realistic as the one i described you before.Something more attached to the rules of the real life. I talked about Wow and indirectly about all the game like eve whene i was talking about playing always over a starship, but i could go on talking about everquest or Guild wars. They are 2 opposit game but the target is always the some Take down the big boss in a PVE istance or kill the best fighter in a pvp fight . What you get is an armor or a weapon to show to the other friends like a Manager do going around the city with his Ferrari , or in the second case you win a battle and you become the first fighter in a list over a webpage on internet. Is this RPG? How can you call those, RPG? The armors or the wepons you get from a constructor shoud be just a tool to get to the real target , defend your village and the ppl that live inside it from invasions . This is an RPG. Or you use the weapons and the armors to attack another village if this is the decision taken from the mayor you elected togheter with the other citizens of your village. or you kill your Mayor becouse you dont accept the rules he give you . You make the story of the game in this way. Instead with the actual MMORPG "getting the tool" has become the target . In wow everquest and all the clone of them  you live a story just written from someone else That monster will die in the upgrade of the story olso if noone will never be able to finish that istance . This isnt an RPG this is another way to read a book or looking a film called "WOW "

This is a Good project and you had a great idea.

This are questions i would add:

Does the game let you built your house?

Deas the game let you personalize it ?

The " bank" of your item is the house ; and can you own more then one?

In the RVR can you conquest outpost of the other faction?If yes , does the outpost give you some benefict for construction or trade skill?

Is the istance the main target of the game or is just a second way of lvling?

Are the istance a number restricted place or a free for all place without any limit of player inside?

Is the loot gived to the first one that loot  or just following other rules?

Can you vote with a ingame system for a Mayor of your faction?

are the item soulbound or can always been tradeble and useable

Are items that suffer damages been repairable? and if yes repaiting them will bring them always to 100% or just to the lvl of the repairer , and the item will ever suffer a permantly lost of % that you wont be able to repair

Are you always in a starshipe or you play olso as a person?

The fact are two: or i m not a good sercher or programmers aren't  realy able to make good moorpg

I cant understand why seams so diffucult to find a good idea to make them .I cant understand it becose to my eyes look so easy. You take the engine of  every good first shooter game  like for exemple call of duty . You ambient it in a village. You are a citizen of it and you live there. You will be a wood cutter or a butcher or every thing the ppl have always done olso in the real life  . So you grow in this village and you work in this village but  you can move too to see how the near villages are, or you will be able to become the citizen of another willage. In those willages election will take place and you will be able to become the Mayor.

You will decide the politic of this village and you will decide that this village will have good relashion or bad relascion with the others. You will be able to invade the other village and conquer them. You will be able to fight with enemies and friends ( in the real life you can kill your neighbor right? ) .you will be arrested from the "police" if you will be catch from it after have done something bad . You will have your home and why not your shop. if you die ppl will be able to loot you  . I want to fight using the mouse for pointing enemies like a normal first shooter. You dont like this ambient? Place all those things in the future in another planet or bring this in a fantasy world but dont change this base. In the normal life you dont grow with items that you will never be able to sell to someone else or give to someone alese ( souldboud ? what is that? ). In the real world you will be able to fight enemies and friends . In the real world you will be able to work or have a house to built as you like . you dont kill someone just to ern point to be able to "buy a pvp armor. What is the point of it?you do pvp for new armors and you make pve for new armors instead WoW you could call it World of  Walentino ( or if you prefer Wersace).In a serius game  you shoud  be able to loot ppl you have killed. In the real world you dont have the look of a starship ALWAYS ( will you ever get down from it ? ) someone can tell me why ,who make games ,just think them as they shoud have as target only  little babys that would start to cry and quit after they have been looted from his enemie or friend? Istance shoud exist just for lvling but not as the only target of the game . Im starting to hate those stupid istance . Some game consider them just the funniest thing to do. What is the point of them? just to go in the mainplaza of the game to screem that you have killed the last boss? or you like it just becouse you will show to the others your last loot of the boos you killed? THIS IS BORING . WHAT ABOUT STARTING TO MAKE A NICE GAME? after Neocron  no more realistic game was ever done.

P.S. sorry for my english , but i believe that my italian would be less understandable

Guys thank you very much for your help.

Anyway after checking all the sci-fi game out there i noticed that neocron is still the best cyberpunk game out there at the moment.I played so many mmorpg but i must admit that i realy loved too much neocron.

Thank you for your help and lets hear again whene a good sci-fi game will be done again. Till that moment i hope to see you all in the outlands :-)

See you

Thank you very much i will go to have a look to this mmo.

I dont want to play anymore with elves and gnomes or other stuff like that too.

I realy hope that another Neocron will be done from the beginning , hoping that they learned all the errors they did with the first 2 chapters. ( i must admit that neocron 1 was my favorite mmorpg)Learning the errorswill let them make a game loved from more then 2000 ppl and  will let ppl understand how wonderful it is the cyberpun ambient,  and probably the biggest problem that Neocron had ( few ppl playing) will be solved.

Anyway I WANT A GOOD CYBERPUNK GAME TOO

i wasnt thinking tha the forum was the some for every game.

I was thinking that the forum was different for each game so i copied the letter for every game i needed the answer of. Im sorry for the spam but i didnt know i was doing spam.