Originally posted by SaintViktor

I bet if we had much better mmos noone would care how long it took to make.  Sadly not many people are successful at making mmos.

I would say the two are related. Let's face it: the companies making "MMOs" these days (and I use the term loosely) are absolutely terrible at it, leading to both long development times and terrible gameplay and/or design choices.

AVG or Avira, hands down.

Originally posted by Khrymson 

The harvesting & crafting is more than just clicking a button and watching a bar fill.  You actually prepare and cut up or craft each individule piece of whatever you're making and then assemble it all in short mini-events that last a few sec to several min each.  Its quite fun!

It reminds me a bit of Cooking Mama.

I think the most irritating thing about the Premium system is how they've carefully selected the bits that are Premium only so you get into a job and get working at it, then go to find out how to use the materials you've collected (sometimes even led there by a quest chain) only to have the guy say you have to be premium to do the follow-up skill.

A good bit of the game is free, yes, but all the really interesting bits are Premium. It's disappointing. I'm not even "out of the gate" yet (so to speak) and they're already slapping me with their Premium advertisements around every corner. So far the game has been just lots and lots of mini-games and not much else, which is fun, but very little actual substance. It's nothing like Runescape at all (which could arguably be good, since Runescape is 100% substance and 0% fun).

Article is extremely short, and mostly just says "Moonkin are good, but also bad" over and over again.

I've been going out of my way to make sure my friends DON'T play Warhammer.

The game is shallow, empty, and broken. It has a few features that I find intriguing, but even those are mangled beyond any usefulness. In the end, WoW is simply more fun.

I am about sick of going to WoWhead and the like and having 90% of the page be click-through links to Warhammer though. I'm sure 90% of their website traffic is generated by uninterested WoW-players who are just trying to find info on the latest quest line.

Originally posted by Lord_Ixigan

Either way your post could have been worded better. It carried with it an aggressive air, like you expect SV to fail.

We should expect them to fail. This industry is not well known for being kind to newcomers. If the developers of Mortal Online want respect, they have to earn it. Chasing away people asking earnest questions just because they mention other games is not a good way to do that.

Originally posted by Vetarnias 

So there is no universal standard in the case of a game by which to judge it -- no, not even popularity, or critical reception.

I disagree.

There are plenty of examples in history of things that have been chosen as "best" by popular vote. The American system of belief is dependent almost totally on the opinion of the majority. We (among many other countries) even select our President by it, which is arguably one of the most important decisions to be made.

People have an unconscious obsession with finding the very best, by whatever definition. When there is no objective way to decide, we revert to opinion. Since individually our opinions are irrelevant to each other, a statistical analysis is used. It could be argued that the statistics are skewed since WoW has reached a "critical mass" (which is, that many of the people playing it are only playing it because it is popular) but it's the best and only method we have to decide what is "best," by any definition. Since the majority like playing WoW over other games, it's statistically the one most likely to be enjoyable to any one specific person, and therefore the "best."

It's nice to have an actual debate about this though, and see some real, intelligent responses instead of the usual "LOL PHAIL" garbage we see around here.

Originally posted by Yamoth

Well that kind of thing is really impossible since that mean who ever deveploing that MMO is totally depending on either donation and/or revenue through advertising....

This.

MMOs don't run for free. There's always some kind of business model to earn them money, and it's usually out of your pockets.

Originally posted by Orthedos 

To me, an average reading skill people should know that I mean when I start a new paragraph with the words "To Kosmos".  Your reading skill is definitely in another league.

At this point I can't tell if you're serious, or just jerking my chain.

If it's the former, you really need to learn to read and you really need to learn to stop assuming it's everyone else that can't. I've clearly quoted in every single reply so that you could see what you said (since you obviously have no idea) and yet you STILL don't recognize your own writing. Stop throwing around insults and read the damn thread.

If it's the latter then you really need to find a better hobby.

Originally posted by goneglockin

Originally posted by GoodBadUgly

Originally posted by goneglockin

 No one who really wants this segment to pick up in MMOs is doing theirself a favor by playing DF.  It only lowers the bar for later.

 I have been cursed because I finally have gotten to experience a real taste of the kind of MMO I have always longed for.    When this one is over, its probably gonna be over because no gaming company seems to have such a good vision of what a nice hardcore MMO should be like.

 

If it were true that there would never be another MMO with a similar type of principles or the same sort of vision as DF intended, then yes I'd agree with a purchase for the sake of the last hurrah.  That ain't the case though. 

Perhaps not "forever" but certainly for a long time. Investors always look at the trends from the past and make sweeping assumptions about things that happened, especially in games. If a FFA full-loot PvP game fails, it's clearly because people don't like FFA full-loot PvP and has nothing to do with the poor communication, poor billing, lack of server space, constant crashing, or whatever other problems there may be with the game.

If Darkfall fails, it will absolutely have repercussions within this industry. To want it to die simply because it's "not good enough" is silly; play it anyways, show them you like these sorts of games, and then wait for someone else to make a better one.

Originally posted by Orthedos

Originally posted by Aethios

Originally posted by Orthedos 

I clearly said To Kosmos: .... That means I am not talking to you.  I never said you ask the OP to shut up.  I am talking about the first reply in this thread.  I clearly wrote "to kosmos" and "the first reply" separately.  If you cannot read, don't blame me.  READ before you said something.  I never put words in your mouth, I am not even talking to you on that part of the argument.

Maybe I need to split 2 replies to 2 views in 2 separate replies, but with I was expecting some common reading skills from the readers here and I kinda get lazy and lump them up.  Maybe I should expect less.

 

"If I do not read the replies that follows, the opinion from the OP is just a rant, not much. He has nothing solid to offer. What follows however are some very despotic views who seems to be based on the fact that they had paid for it. That is what upsets me. As I said, both views matter, and again both does b/c none of them are very informative. At least the OP is more polite and does not tell us to shut up. The first reply simply says shut up, which to me sounds like mad hatred driven."

This is a direct quote of the post in question, and I don't see "To Kosmos:" in there anywhere. Clearly it's my reading skills that are in question here when you are simply making up text and pretending it's there when it's not.

Oh but it's okay if you badmouth me here for shooting down the OP, and then at the very same moment you're in another thread ranting about how terrible Darkfall is. Right... but you're the unbiased one here, am I right?

Where did I said TO kosmos?  reply #14 last line.  Luckily I never edit that reply.  So its still original.  All the rest of the discussion follows from it.
 

So you think I'm talking about a completely different reply even though I clearly quoted the reply I was talking about. You addressed me directly, implied that I told you (or the OP) to "shut up" and then left it at that, as clearly evidenced in the post above. What part of that is so hard to understand that you need to drag in a completely different post that has nothing to do with this at all? You're just talking in circles.

EDIT: Cut out some of the excess quoting to save space on the page.

Originally posted by Orthedos

Originally posted by Aethios

Originally posted by Orthedos

Originally posted by Aethios

Originally posted by Orthedos

At least the OP is more polite and does not tell us to shut up.  The first reply simply says shut up, which to me sounds like mad hatred driven.

 

I never said "shut up." Don't put words in my mouth.

 

I clearly said TO KOSMOS, who said the OP's view does not matter.  I also clearly said the first reply, which is Kosmos' not yours.  Stop jumping around in anger.

 

Who's angry? Maybe you should be more specific so people don't think you're making wild accusations.

 

I clearly said To Kosmos: .... That means I am not talking to you.  I never said you ask the OP to shut up.  I am talking about the first reply in this thread.  I clearly wrote "to kosmos" and "the first reply" separately.  If you cannot read, don't blame me.  READ before you said something.  I never put words in your mouth, I am not even talking to you on that part of the argument.

Maybe I need to split 2 replies to 2 views in 2 separate replies, but with I was expecting some common reading skills from the readers here and I kinda get lazy and lump them up.  Maybe I should expect less.

"If I do not read the replies that follows, the opinion from the OP is just a rant, not much. He has nothing solid to offer. What follows however are some very despotic views who seems to be based on the fact that they had paid for it. That is what upsets me. As I said, both views matter, and again both does b/c none of them are very informative. At least the OP is more polite and does not tell us to shut up. The first reply simply says shut up, which to me sounds like mad hatred driven."

This is a direct quote of the post in question, and I don't see "To Kosmos:" in there anywhere. Clearly it's my reading skills that are in question here when you are simply making up text and pretending it's there when it's not.

Oh but it's okay if you badmouth me here for shooting down the OP, and then at the very same moment you're in another thread ranting about how terrible Darkfall is. Right... but you're the unbiased one here, am I right?

Originally posted by Bama1267

 Quite honestly , pick your poison. PVP will be the worse of all 3. I found PvE isn't too bad but only slightly better than any other type servers. Also from my own experience the RP server I was on , just seemed populated with older dbags.

The only way to get any enjoyment out of this game from a social aspect is to find a good guild.

I agree, finding a good guild is always the best way to avoid the idiots in WoW.

In my experience, "Normal" servers tend to have players who are more laid back and just want to get stuff done, while "PvP" servers are the kind of servers filled with hyper kids jumping around screaming "OMFG PWNT ROFL" all day long (and probably spamming the space bar, too).

Originally posted by Orthedos

Originally posted by Aethios

Originally posted by Orthedos

At least the OP is more polite and does not tell us to shut up.  The first reply simply says shut up, which to me sounds like mad hatred driven.

 

I never said "shut up." Don't put words in my mouth.

 

I clearly said TO KOSMOS, who said the OP's view does not matter.  I also clearly said the first reply, which is Kosmos' not yours.  Stop jumping around in anger.

Who's angry? Maybe you should be more specific so people don't think you're making wild accusations.

Originally posted by Orthedos

At least the OP is more polite and does not tell us to shut up.  The first reply simply says shut up, which to me sounds like mad hatred driven.

I never said "shut up." Don't put words in my mouth.

---

Originally posted by Stormwave1
I decided to roll on a RP server, since I thought that would increase my odds of being involved in a more mature player community.

---

Well, that was your first mistake.

---

I went into the pub, where there were lots of people "RPing". That is, standing around begging for "cyb0r". I was asked in a whisper, "need a sex slave", to which I replied, "lol?". Moving on even from that, I continued my questing. I entered a mine at level 7, there was a female caster of some description at the entrance with me. She agroed two mobs, one of which I was about to attack. I checked she was okay, and when I realised she was, I entered the mine. A minute later I heard a voice behind me say "u reported". Confused I replied, "What?", and the response I recieved was something along the lines of "reported becuz u r in RP realm u not know how to RP". I replied, "I can speak in proper English..." and she left. I still am not quite sure what I did wrong. I guess what I want to know is, is this common place? If so, I know for a fact that WoW is not for me. If this was just a freak occurance, and there are good mature guilds, or later game is better, please let me know and I might continue.

---

I can't speak for the RP servers (all stories I have heard of them have been horrific) but I can assure you that the lower levels (on any server) will be riddled with all manner of the mentally challenged. When you get to around 20 or so, it tends to get better, and continues to improve as you level up. At the top-end content, most of the idiots have been filtered out and it's quite enjoyable.

If you are looking for some serious and mature people to play with, I am assembling a group of players on Runetotem currently and you're welcome to join us. I'm more than happy to teach you what you need to know about the game and answer any questions you may have.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Runetotem&n=Aethios

Originally posted by Orthedos 

Come on, the OP said he decided not to pay for something, and he gave his reason.  How unreasonable can that be?  How more reasonable are you?  You said you paid for something and that suddenly makes you the authority in this field?  Could it be that you are stupid and you paid, and we should avoid your views?

If you object to his views tell us why.  A blanket statement saying you like it means nothing.  We never know if you really paid, play and understand at all.  Why must he paid before he is entitled to forming an opinion and sharing it?  If everyone must pay before he can talk we would be muted half of our life.  If you tell us you are unique, are you hinting to us that your view means nothing to us cos you are unique?  Or that you are unique and more clever and should dictate our taste?

To kasmos: why would his view not matter? why would your view matter? To me both matters, and with your attitude, his might matter more.  At least he is not hatred driven.

Not hatred driven? Are we even reading the same thread?

Whether I like the game or not is irrelevant (in fact, I haven't even played it, and therefore have no opinion on the subject) but what he's saying is dead flat wrong. I object to what he's saying because he's saying "I'm too good to pay for this game and if you were dumb enough to shell out money, then you're an idiot and I'm better than you too." That kind of elitist attitude should never be coddled, especially in this suffering market.

If the game is good, pay for it. If it's not, then by all means tell people. However, if you haven't played it, don't even know if you like it, but are just parading around stroking your ego, then what's the point? At least the people paying are enjoying themselves.

Originally posted by goneglockin

There's no question I would get some enjoyment out of darkfall.  I just have respect for myself and refuse to hand over my money to these people who think they can pawn off a poorly made, unfinished product on me. 

I'd say your missing the point and you'd say the point is to have fun but you're wrong.  This is a business and you're a consumer, and you're taking the shaft- you may be enjoying yourself, but that's still what's happening here. 

If I'm paying for the game and I'm enjoying myself, where does the "shafting" come into play?

There's no "higher purpose" here. Either the game is worth the money or it's not, and it has nothing to do with your self-respect. It's all about fun (since it is just a game, after all) and whether or not you're enjoying yourself while playing it. If you don't like it, then don't pay for it, but don't try to convince others not to play it because of some sick personal agenda. Let people be people and the game will take care of itself, one way or another.

Originally posted by goneglockin

Originally posted by Kasmos

Have you played it? No?

Then your opinion doesn't matter, because I have, have put a lot of hours in it over the past few days, and couldn't be happier with my $54 that I spent.

 

Anyone can learn enough about any kind of product to determine it's value.  That's why we have consumer reports, reviews, customer feedback, forums, etc.  If it weren't for people who settle for mediocrity you'd be happier still.

Until then enjoy justifying your purchase.

Even with consumer reports, review, customer feedback, forums, etc... it's impossible to determine from those alone whether you will like a game or not. I have played plenty of games that have gotten good reviews but were total and absolute garbage. Then you throw in sites like ZeroPunctuation that give purely bad reviews all the time and the formula becomes even more complicated.

Why is it so difficult to find out before purchasing a game whether I will like it? Perhaps because I am unique and *gasp* other people have different opinions! Enjoy justifying your unreasonable hatred of people who are simply enjoying themselves.

Originally posted by tarkin1980 

If the game is so boring that you don't want to play it yourself, I'd simply cancel my subscription.

You're mixing up "macros" and "botting" which are two totally different things. With macros, you're still playing, you just have to press fewer buttons (like WoW macros to bind multiple spells together into a single key, for example). That's what the discussion is about.