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Originally posted by baphamet

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Originally posted by spiritglow

Originally posted by 22222

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Originally posted by Amathe
Actually WoW has crossed the 7 million mark. The common denominator is that those games are fun. Fun games sell a lot of copies. Games where masochism is encouraged sell fewer copies.

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Amen. Mini chat games and  pain in the ass crafting = Alot of fun Rofl Like wet freaking jeans.
oh so now you are helping Amathe and some of the others derail your own topic haha, nice one! i assume you are just another person looking for something to complain about or looking for a way to justify why you think vanguard wont be successful and your argument crashed and burned.

Amathe's reply looks to be in topic.

Baphamet, feeling a little threatened by Amathe? Hey?

Maybe Amathe's posts are hitting a little too close to the truth...

Spiritglow

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nice first post there buddy, welcome to the discussion. i don't feel threatened by his posts in the least bit. i disprove them on a regular basis.

i don't consider things like "After Brad sells it (which he will), and after the market reaction has caused significant changes (which it will)" truth, it is speculation.

i don't disagree with everything he says but for the most part he comes he and finds a small bone to nitpick witch i have pointed out more than once, but that is a different topic.

i just find it funny that the OP tried to justify why he thinks wow and gw is so popular, saying it is because of pvp and myself as well as alot of others shot down his argument.

so now he jumps on the bandwagon and helps derail his own topic, witch is highly amusing.

but lets get something straight (referring to Amathe's post again) if he thinks vanguard will not be fun i have absolutely no beef with that.

if you want to argue that wow is popular because it is a fun game not only do i not have a problem with that, but i agree with it. so yeah, i am defiantly not "threatened" by his post in any way.

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Originally posted by vesavius

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Originally posted by Zippy
The reasons are quite varied.  There are a lot of groups that hate Vanguard and a lot of people that are very insecure and have a need to express why thier game is better than Vanguard.

The groups of people that dislike Vanguard but thier emotuions are similar and fantatical.  Generally they know little to nothing about the game except whatever stereotypes they have invented for themselves.

1.  The Anti-SOE people hate Vanguard with a passion.  I can't disagree with them about disliking SOE.  SOE is all about profits and not about making quality fun games. But there are certainly many good reasons to be happy about SOE's involvement with Sigil if we can just get past our hatred of SOE.

2.  PvP kiddies  The kiddies hate this game.  They feel threatened anytime any game is not focused on PVP.  Like most kiddies they have an overwhleming need to tell everyong they are right in the most obnoxious way possible.  The PvP kiddies have hated EQ for years and hate Brad McQuaid.  It seems the fact that Brad McQuaid is making another game causes them an endless amount of anxiety and stress.

3.  Casual Gamers  There is a loud obnoxious segment of casual gamers that infest every board.  Thgey are not satisfied with just dumbing down and destroying thier own games.  They feel the need to destroy every other game.  Thus they are here.  Vanguard while not directed at hardcore players and from everything we can tell it is nothing even close to a hardcore game but is not being targetted at the casual market like 99.9% of games.  This if course is a major threat to casual gamers goal to get new games to put players at max level with epic gear upon purchasing the game.

4.  The I hate Games  People  These people bash everyone game.  They infest every board because they never actually play any games. because they don't play games they have nothing betetr to do than bash other games on boards.  In theory one day someone might make the perfect game for them.  Thier quest is to search every game board until they find thier non-existent holy grail.  They love to bash Vanguard even more than otehr games because its a high profile game.

5.  The super-lottery players  Mainly these people fit into the PvP crowd but they are unique in they dislike any major game that has publicity.  It is their goal to to support and play independent developer, underdog type games in hopes they will fuind an underdog game that can compete abd defeat the big budget games in content and quality .  Vanguard will be the second biug budget, greater than $50 millon dollar development game, released since wow was released 2 years ago.  DDO being the last at $65 millon to develop.  These people want underdogs to win and they have no problem joining in and critizing one of the few big budget games.

While some of my characterizions may have been poor attempts at humor and satirical there is a large anti-Vanguard crowd out there who feels compelled to make as much noise as possible even if they know little to nothing about the game.  Look at the posters that bash Vanguard here they know virtually nothing about the game or its design.  But on the otehr hand look at the supporters often they know little to nothing about the games design.  But at least the supporters are somehat nicer.  But I can't blame the supporters as there is so much hate and misinformation being spread about Vanguard it is hard for people to actually see past the misguided stereotypes the kiddies post.

When you read the ant-Vanguard posts keep in mind what  is common about the Vanguard haters.  They are fantical beyond reason, they know little to nothing about Vanguard or MMO's for that matter, and they feel an overwhleming need to tell people their opinions.

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Word of wisdom.

All that I will add is that people don't even really hate the game as much as they pretend, they just love flaming people who actually care and are easy to get a reaction from. You will see the same people who flame VG fans on just about every board across the net... attacking religious groups, console systems, politics, sports teams... anything that people actually care about. It makes certain people feel better about themselves to 'control' others to obtain a desired reaction. Usually people who have no control over their lives in RL. Tragic but true.

Thats the bottom line here- people already care about Vanguard, and thats an amazing thing for a MMO to inspire before release.

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Originally posted by Amathe

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Originally posted by Zippy 

 This if course is a major threat to casual gamers goal to get new games to put players at max level with epic gear upon purchasing the game.

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This post is just full of juicy fiction, but I will limit myself to two points in rebuttal.

First, Brad came to these boards and posted about how casual players would enjoy Vanguard. I said that wasn't so. But according to Zippy, who claims to be knowledgeable about the game and who also claims people like me are not *wink*, Brad was wrong and casuals don't and won't like it. Thanks Zippy for clearing that up!

Second, In WoW, in EQ, in EQ2, etc. you can't wear epic gear when you log in because it's level restricted and because in most cases it's bind on pickup and non-tradeable. But the *cough* Vanguard hardcore, who love their twinks, have persuaded Brad to allow you to be able to wear most anything. So little Skippy can wear epic level gear in Vanguard at level 1 if his big brother who actually plays the game hands it to him (it won't give Skippy the full effect).

But to answer the OP's question, read Zippy's post. Now imagine years and thousands of Zippy-esque posts on the Sigil boards telling everyone how the fans of this game are so much better than the players of any other game, and ridiculing everyone else as lazy bums looking for a handout. And I believe the answer will become apparant why people are critical of this title.

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Originally posted by gestalt11
I suspect its because the devs are making claims about inclusivness and fun and originality, but a lot of people just think this is EQ redux and don't believe that game ever included any of those.

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Originally posted by Anofalye

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Originally posted by Rattrap

Raiding -> It sucks , what can i tell you. But some mmo developers think it is a good idea, just like instances...

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Instancing improve an individual gaming experience.  So no matter if you like or dislike instancing, it doesn't make or break a game.  Instancing can improve/lessen a game, not define it.

Raiding kills grouping.  You can't group effectively in the ultimate dungeons because you need to RAID in order to acquire the gear to match these grouping challenges. Peoples will desire these who earn these raiding gear, in fact putting groupers as a second choice, inside grouping.  What a nonsense.  First choice in grouping have to be groupers!

I say it again, non-raiding server = I will buy the game.  Without non-raiding servers, I will not waste any money, non-raiding servers are a MUST and they are EASY to get up and working.  I am sure SoE can provide 5 programers right NOW if Brad lack the staff and that within a month the non-raiding server is up and running!  Non-raiding server also allow casuals to DREAM.  These games are about dreaming, if you can't dream, you don't play the game.  A raiding server kills any form of dreaming for me.

Enforcing raiding will lead Vanguard to it demise.

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Originally posted by Amathe
Actually WoW has crossed the 7 million mark. The common denominator is that those games are fun. Fun games sell a lot of copies. Games where masochism is encouraged sell fewer copies.

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