Eh there,

I am Anofalye, I am an ex-MMO addict and I haven't been playing any MMO for over 5 years.  Yet I am neither proud nor looking particuliarly to fall back again in the mood, yet since tonight I can't sleep, I figure out I could come back and share some "old" ideas about the topic.

1st common mistake: No gameplay is superior or inferior to any other gameplay.  However, many devs will try to "force" a gameplay beyond a point in the game, if not many gameplays...with the hope the players will change and keep playing.  Thing is, if the player get a 2500% blast experience from it initial gaming experiences, he will likely stay until he get over that amount in "displeasing" experience.  This could usually be transfered into roughtly 50% of the initial gaming time, and note that since the player isn't stopping his initial gaming experience in a day, it still add ups...so it could means weeks, months or even in some case years before they gave up on a gameplay which would never have appeal to them.  For exemple, if someone is enjoying the tradeskills of a game but has to adventure out to get components, eventually it will wear out on him.

2nd common mistake: Lack of relevant content.  Devs will add bazillions things, and this is a good thing.  However they should be adding more of what is successfull, not new games.  It is very hard for a worker to always be improving the same things, human nature is frivolous and when you are paid to work, you often need "changes".  But if you made a successfull game in a way, changing the gaming experience is just about as developping a new completely different game.

3rd common mistake: Lack of revitalisation of the newbies areas.  You can interest veterans players in twinking only to some extand, there is a point where they won't want to play a new character.  If you want your game to last "eternally", you have to make sure every old area is interesting to come back, both for the veterans and for the newbies.

Now, I could go on, but I will switch my message to a brief presentation of myself, so peoples could understand my "agendas" and counter it, as it seems to be a common missconception that we will convince the devs to give us our precious and not our neihbor if we are convincing enought...yet to do so would be the undoing of any game, you cannot favorised any type of players over another, if you have a gameplay, no matter what it is, you have to support it, completely.  You don't have to support accidental gameplays, yet you can, as long as you do not stop supporting what makes the game successfull.

So about me, beside saying I am a highschool teacher who give up teaching for lack of governmental vision, that  my domain of expertise is social studies, that I work in the past as a game designer and work in many customer services departments...I used to be playing too much...my life isn't either a success nor a failure...I have a lot to think about silly stuff...such as games and hobbies and taking it too seriously.

About gaming I am a former solo terrorist who becames a group nazis which try to undermine raiding or PvP as much as I could, as I never like these and devs often put these gameplays in a feeble attempt to retain my subscribtion...and fail with a critial mistake.  I played extensively EQ and CoX and tries a dozen MMOs or so.

As to the solutions I see, they are neither complete, nor enought...but they are the basic IMO (not so humble).

A- Every area of the game needs a level cap.  This is essential, otherwise you completely destroy the gameplay in that zone.  There might be many work around this level cap to "cheat" within the rules, so you are indeed stronger than someone barely at the level cap, but the game has to remain interesting.  A level 50 killing level 10 orcs is destroying the game.  If a player wants to experience that, I have nothing against the idea, but it should be AWAY from the community and without significant rewards.  There could be plenty of things to still earn in old zones, such as secondaries abilities, stats, tiny powers/edges, LOOT.  This is right, there is no sense that all the best rewards are always in the level 100 dungeons, it trivialised everything else, make it useless at best.  Would it be soo bad that the best chest item are made by the dwarves in a zone with a level cap of 15?  Everyone is 15 or lower in there, so the challenge is there.  And there is a beauty in knowing easily, for the players, which zones hold which items locations best items, be them quests, purchasable, drop loot or whatever, they are all in this zone...and you are sure veterans will come back to this lowbie zone from time to time if they play the game a LOT when they feel they need a better breast item.  And as well as working on the loot, they still work on another XP side bonus skills/abilities/powers...

The logic behind this, beside gameplays, could be among these lines of arguments, for peoples who cares about logics in a game of elves, fireballs and dragons.  1- The energy of the Gods doesn't support higher levels.  2- The strenght and clumsiness of this area doesn't allows you to benefit from skills beyond a point,  sword mastery is only that good, this orc is twice bigger than you afterall.  3- Gravity changes and affect basics laws on this world, you can't tumble over a 3 floors building in there but in other places you can.  And so on...but first and foremost, gameplay is the main reason.

B- The MMOs has to be as "endless" as possible, without losing the interest of the player.  Every activity has to be the BEST to get good at doing it...you don't want the PvP folks raiding a mob, you don't want raiders soloing components to open the next door, you don't want soloers raiding to get decent loot...Nothing prevent you from "protecting" a gameplay from "easier" gameplay, perhaps solo gear isn't efficient in groups...has quite many idea on how to make that.

Anyway, I'm bored...and going back away from this MMOs area for now.  As an addict, we are never "cured", but since it has been over 5 years since my last MMOs experience, I'm not going to fall for BioWare putting some stories in the old schemes or Blizzard redoing what was done before.  Not that I don't respect what they do, they just do fit in for me.

Back to sleeping mode hopefully...

See, I made the pigrimmage to Santiago, if upon reaching the end I would have found myself, suddenly, not in Spain, not in a religious city....it would have upset me.  Just imagine that at the end of the pilgrimmage I would have found myself in Wallstreet...all smelly, under heavy suspicious scrutiny, not really welcome, as an hindrance...I would definitedly have been pissed.

Instead, I found myself with thousands of smelly pilgrims, feets sored, saw some of the most beautiful churchs/cathedrals...I was happy...I complete my pilgrimmage and did something else after that, keeping good memories.

Some end game are designed only to get a few extra $$$ with no other regards, building on good feelings you had, and willing to destroy everything...they change the rules, the games, and they tells you that now, you are a 2nd class player and nobody wants you in their groups unless you do XYZ!

Originally posted by Quizzical

May I suggest that when choosing your next game to play, you have a look at the endgame before playing the game.  If it's raiding, then move on and find a different game to play.

Unless, of course, you think the lower level content was well worth doing for its own sake, even knowing that you're going to quit when you hit the level cap.

Very well spoken.  Saddly, most games won't tell you much info about their end game until you are way in.  This is called marketing, and some would even LIES to raise their sell.

As to me, no journey is worth taking if the ending cannot end positively.

If they could design an AI to challenge the chess champion...yes they could.

However, the AI doesn't change approach as much as humans and they do far less mistakes (unless programmed to do so)...and they rarely have downtime and waste of time (a huge human flaw).

Not to mention the connectivity been superior all the time...

Remember that the AI is a % of the peoples who create it...and can combine many persons.

The troubles is to balance the AI.

If a schoolgirl is kicking asses and very good and totally uber, it would take great AI against her...but if a retired elderly gentleman have to go to the bathroom regularly, there is a moment when the AI should consider PITY...and now this is getting hard to program­...as someone could be FAKING to get the pity from  a AI...

See, if I completely destroyed player A, and B was helping him, I may very well ignore player B who was merely helping his friend who is a total jackass that I would jump as soon as he spawn again, while ignoring player B who is a guy who can't pick his friends right.

An AI has to be built to be FUN and challenging...and when it outclass me if need some judgment...this is why they are called PvE and used differents stats...to make it fun and challenging rather then just challenging.

Same debate...same argument...same conflicts.

The main flaw is if you accept that either is superior to another (be it group or solo play), then pandora box is open and next thing you know it will be Epic-raids, PvP-slugfest, or tetris-vengeance that will be superior to whatever you enjoy doing in a game.

In theory (a very nice country btw), you need everything supported to be supported equally.

The next steps, are usually one of the 2 following logics:

A - Everything been equally supported brings equal rewards, so every player will do merely what they care for and get to the point they enjoy before changing focus to another game.  (EVERYONE IS GOOD AT EVERYTHING if they focus enought)

B- Everything been equally supported brings rewards nearly exclusively to the activity linked to it...when the player is done with whatever he cares for, he may then start doing other activities as he isn't advance there yet, or switch games never been interested in this aspect of the game  (aka, rewards make you good at this activity but not other, a sword good at PvP would never be given in PvE...yet an armor good for PvE would never be given in PvP...and so on)  (GOOD SOLOERS ARE SOLOING, GOOD GROUPERS ARE GROUPING, GOOD PVPers are PVPing)  :)

Most games would focus on 1 gameplay and screw all other (old EQ have you raid or you would never be as wanted in group as peoples who do raid...or DAoC have you do some realms fights...or...)  or have it the other way completely (CoX, you do whatever and you are good at everything...yet with later design they change it to have peoples do task forces...which back then make me quite happy, yet it was just as badly "encouraging" 1 gameplay over other).

Why VS?

Why can't you just make everyone progress and be the best at what they do?  You solo, you are progressing in a way that only soloers would out-solo you.  You group, you are progressing in a way that only groupers would out-group you.

See, peoples care mostly about 1-thing, to be good at what they do.  It is natural.  So, if someone solo all the time, who would seriously care if he solo better than anyone not soloing?  I wouldn't, nor would anybody who is a tadbit logical, he has fun owning his pixelised areas alone, why not, give us a few interactions which benefit us BOTH, either trades, or attacking an area simulteneously or whatever, and we would ALL be happy sharing the same world.  The thing is, his soloing must not hinder my grouping, and my grouping must not hinder his soloing and so on...so we all benefit from co-existing.  I hardly care if I am not as good as he is when I solo, because when I do solo, I have my LFG tag on, I do that, until I have something more interesting to do.

An intelligent design would either rewards every gameplay equally, or separetedly.

The first miles are harder.  The first steps, harder.  Doing it 5-6 years before make this impossible to compare.

EQ was a grand masterpiece, it open a new gaming style.

WoW is a refinement of this masterpiece, WoW is an EQ clone redone and reshaped.  Anything WoW earns/achieve is a glorification of EQ.

You are comparing Christianity(WoW) vs Judaism (EQ).

I stop playing EQ in 2003, after more than 1 year of my life spent in-game.  I know the game better than most designers of any MMO, or anyone working at SoE.  If it is possible to love a game, I did love it, at a time.  But, love and hatred are very close emotions and, when I close the door, it was for good.

I play WoW for less than 24 hours, discarding it, and anytime I see anything about this game (guess how many of my friends play it, even if I don't play it, I can't be oblivious to the game).  In my eyes, WoW did developp the last steps, but they didn't build the foundation, they barely took those from EQ, noticeably hiring former players.  WoW might have done many things right, but they obliviously didn't do everything right, nor even a majority of things right.  They merely improve what already exist and make it better.  This is a good job, but by no way meaning they are all knowing, or that everything they do is right...think of it, I rather play Mafia War or Castle Age on Facebook than their MMO, as these devs understand SOME things better (not everything either).

See, progression does matter, and MMOs devs are underestimating the importance of a logical progression which ALWAYS could be further developp by doing things YOU like, rather than things devs try to impose.

Multiplayers is definitely the way of the future, but does it have to be massive?  Perhaps, perhaps not.  It doesn't have to rule the gameplay however, solo and grouping are definitely the 2 main gameplay of any serious MMOs and rewarding peoples from other gameplays at their expanse is a mistake (no matter if you reward Raiders, PvPers, Republicans or whatever fit your boat).  There are other gameplay which are popular of course, but in MMOs, I fail to see any gameplay remotedly as popular as solo or grouping, and nobody serious would even argue on this point, this is how most players play their MMOs.

Wrong.

And I, personnally, would like "soft-core PD" (lives per month), this rank me among the peoples who would enjoy among the harshest penalties...and I concede the fact that the Death Penalties are merely 1 tool among many other.

Trying to simplify everything to 1 single data isn't realistic unless, this data is removing the fun from the game.  I am sure, we can find plenty of peoples who would not mind not dying at all.

That's been said, I do believe each server should have a different death penalty.  Where would most peoples flow and play?  Most likely on the light penalties, at least at start.  But eventually, the long lasting communities might show up on medium to harsh penalties servers.

See, IMHO, you need to find a system where the casuals and the hardcore both feel some dread about dying, without feeling dishearted if their character die.  See, losing 10 XP to a guy playing 1 hour per month, this is all you need, it could even be a DEBT system.  You don't need to punish him further.  But to a guy efficient and playing a dozen of hours everyday...it COULD be a thrill to add more.  I really believe that a server (not the whole game) where peoples who died too often can't play their favorite character for the remaining of the month, this would be a grand idea.  To make this idea workable, you may want to give these players a "sense/reason" to want to play there, perhaps that server has a few more options on a layer or another, perhaps some rewards, or an option that isn't available on the "casual servers".

In fact, why does everything has to be available everywhere?  I know, devs work hard.  But, putting limits and restrictions beforehand on the players is also key to the success.  Rewards have to be awarded approprietedly.  Giving everything to everyone would make as much sense as the raiding system in EQ!   See, players have to be able to be good and achieve stuff at what they care for.  Raiding content might be available only on some servers, yet the loot tables on these servers might be working completely differently.  Why prevent a soloer from earning the ultimate sword of utter obliteration if that player isn't going to do anything but solo?  You want to lose a player?  There should be means to acquire it, in his own way of playing, on the appropriate server.  See, on the test server, everyone can be any level, any class, have any loot they desire...it is the test server.  On the solo server, everything should be earnable by soloing, you don't like it, go play on a server with a higher challenge, where you know that peoples equipped with the items are "deserving" of it.

IMO, there could be a "I win button" server.  As long as peoples on my server, earned everything by grouping...and peoples who died too often are prevented to play more this character for the remaining of the month...I would have a blast on such a server.

Now, having different servers rules bring many other questions...and 1 of them is, can friends from different servers play together, and if so, under which rules?  IMO, there should be 1 instanced server, where peoples from every server play together their character...but what they bring there (levels, XP, gear, is subject to rules...for example, an item earned on your server might need a special tag to be brought over there, otherwise it is left on the homeserver...what you can earn there is also subject to rules).

This could become quite complex, while remaining extremely simple.  Conversions systems aren't a hard thing.

But basically, hars death penalties, are 1 aspect, among many other, and IMO, it should be the case on SOME servers.

Best?  I don't know.

The 2 I remember the most:

CoX:  Each level you get to specialised 2 powers, or 1 twice...and every now and then you get a power.  It is simple, but it is addictive, and it works.  You level up, new power, new slots.  I think the enhancement where detering, since I didn't get the feeling the choice was really there, you have a few cookie cutter, might as well just have an automatic upgrade and focus on what work.  But, when they bring in the set...now, this was getting interesting.  The main advantage of this system are:  Casual, Simple, easy to figure...hard to master completely, yet easy to "succeed" and be decent too good.

EverQuest AAs:  Hate them as much as you want, but the ability to earn more XP to get precise bonuses where something I really did like...but this is extremely grindy.  But...I really like to get these...each of them...even the resists!  Afterall, many peoples on my server honestly think I was the first character to max the first 5 AAs trees...may or not have been the case, I wasn't competing, I was maxing it.  When they add the last 2 trees, I really had great fun, stopping to max the less "efficients AAs" to work on the new paths which where more worth it, before resuming the old ones...

Both of these systems have 1 big advantage:  EASY TO UNDERSTAND...the funniest thing is...CoX was harder too master, even if EQ was definitely longer and grindier.  (CoX is a rework of Diablo tree for those who still haven't figure that much out, but it was refined and improve a LOT).

Overly complex guys.

Me, as an achiever, gimme things to achieve, or lose me.  As simple as that.

Forcing me to raid won't get you that.  I am extremely patient, dedicated, focused, determined, but, at the basic, it must remain something I enjoy, something I play and focus the way I choose...aka, for me it is grouping and/or solo.   Other things to achieve such as tradeskills?  Perhaps, as long as they are either interesting and/or not frustrating.

Build a yadda yadda yadda world for yadda yadda yadda...well...I am neither an explorer, nor a killer, nor a socialiser (althought I may enjoy each aspect).  If you want to see an Anofalye populating your world, gimme things to achieve...endlessly ideally.  Because if I run out of achievement, either because they are none, I earn all, or I decide they are not achievable (raiding), then you lose the player.

Now that my schedule and free time is more limited, this is extremely important to be understood, I won't bear with critical flaws such as seen in EQ (raiding), or CoX (Nerf-0-thon, geez, can I achieve and not fight to be un-achieved by some nazi freaks who is busy on game balancing something I don't even care for(PvP?  What's that?  oh, this is the side activity which will always remain a side activity!))

See, I reach level 350 in Mafia War (Facebook) with no purchase of anything and with no outside help and no cheating, playing by the rules...waiting for my energy to fills back.  Zynga devs are also PvP-driven, but, I built up my stamina to 30, which is kinda optimal for some XP earning, and everything else goes in what I like.

What if I am done in a month or two?  Well, I will jet out until the game open new stuff and then, I will be back in, rushing in.  Perhaps I will start a 2nd or even a 3rd toon to max.  What If I am unable to reach the top?  That's can be a lot more edgy...I play to excel, to be prime in my stuff...if I don't reach the max, but I see about nobody reaching it and most peoples not ahead of me but a very few who "deserve it", I will continue...if I lose faith in the system.

I don't think there is a clear: Must be able to max it in a month, in 2 months, or endless and impossible to max.  It is how it is built and what dreams it allows me to uphold.  See, if I am playing a character, and in my classe/field there are about 10 other characters on the whole server who are "competing" with me (I have a good ego, so this could be read: better than me but I somehow think I am better), I have my fuel to always advance my character...beating them or just remaining in the platoon is definitely succifient to keep me dreaming, as long as somehow, I can dream of doing it.  Actually reaching it or not, is pointless.   There have to be milestones which are significants on the roads, new powers, new abilities, news graphics, new options...on the way.  But the details...hardly matter.

My 2 favorites MMOs where EQ (grind-o-meter) and CoX (Almost a I did it button).  They are kinda at both extreme of the grind...which I played most?  I don't know.  I have 2 characters max level in EQ and my twinks are not worth naming, and 1 of the 2 character max level was definitely "important", as the other one would have been a "great casual" at best.  In CoX, I think I have maxed about 10 characters and have countless alternates worth naming in comparaison...so both paths actually work.

Grind or not?  Who cares?  As an "hardcore achiever", I will be happy with either.  If I max too fast, I will play other games and do other stuff until the devs add more to earn, if I take almost until expansion to max, then I will focus on this game more.  Which is better, higher focus or just coming back each time new stuff to earn?  Not sure.  Both works.  I came back for CoX a LOT and would still be coming back if not for the *&%@@(*&%#* nerfs.

From an achiever point of view, the deepness of the grind doesn't really matter...and if this doesn't matter for an achiever, how could this matter for non-achiever players?  Socialisers/Explorers/PvPers always complains about the achievements requirements, perhaps how it is done is more important than the lenght of it.

Great post.

Of course, I would disagree about FFXI, but I can't say anything about the game, I can only say I purchase it at release, was never able to play it and my account was erased after the 3 months thing, which I heard they don't do anymore.  Since I am nowhere any game inclined as I used to be (eh, life goes on for me as well as everyone else, believe it or not)...the fact I consider I waste $80 back then (must be worth more than $100 now), it seems extremely unlikely I would ever even dare to try any SquareEnix product again in my life...plenty of games for what time I have left to grant them, without me reconsidering games company who somehow manage to draw my ire...as negative feelings are extremely harsh to get rid off.

Ryzom was a great game, had a lot of fun there on the English server (screw it, I'm so not playing with these scranny little french speakers...geez, "wedoitmonthslaters" players...niak niak niak...sorry, not my type!).  Ryzom was too hardcore for me, and coming from me, at that moment when I used to have a LOT of free time...geez....that's quite a sentence, yet, at the same time, if you have bazillions free time and look for a great game, gotta agree.

DAoC...my memories of this game are...dwindling.  They where kinda positives, yet...I play it what?  2 weeks?  How long ago?  8 years ago?  More?  Geez...didn't hold me back then, wouldn't today.

The other 2 where not granted a try.

Saying I have a different opinion than the poster doesn't invalide his opinion nor mine, in fact, I appreciate his...maybe I will try 1 of the other 2 game eventually...althought I have to play Aion and Champion online and I don't have the free time right now...perhaps later...or in a decade!  :P

I have to try this game...eventually.  Or Aion...or...I dunno.

I really enjoy focusing on 1 game, no matter how silly the game.  And right now, I am unsure if I could trust a MMO again.  Perhaps, perhaps not.  I feel compelled to try it...yet...I don't feel as trying it now, always as...what if it is another disappointment?  Right now, I don't know...and if they are crazy nerfing, well, I don't have to cope with it.

Hehe, I am just enjoying Fantasy Wars right now...niak niak niak.  Perhaps a MMO again..."soon"...who know?

Hehe... I am reading this, and...I smile.

I will never accept any nerf to my characters, period.  So, it is a good thing I am not playing yet.

See, why I am playing a game where I INVEST thousands of hours on 1 character, always advancing this character, if this advancement is subject to constant changements based by the whim of the devs?  If you want to nerf and change rules, why bother with levels in the first place?  Remove the grind completely or enforce and support your rules, once and for all, either way totally, but not both.

For me it is time Cryptic answer this basic questions:  Levels and rigidity, or game rules change which may alter the game completely and no grind at all.  Those walking in the middle of the road, they get slammed.

You have to reach a point where there is a choice, levels/grind or nerfs/majorgamechanges.  Changing the rules AFTER player grinds is a slap in the face of those players, it is a: we don't care about your FUN.

Something which offer always MORE of what the player likes in order to progress in the "most efficient ways".

You like to PvE-grind, then grind yourself, and everyone who will grind better than you, they are grinding as well.  You like to PvP, than PvP away and anyone who kick your sorry @$$ earn it while PvPing, whatever there was to earn.

Just keeping this simple logic is beyond most devs.

There is a point where you just have to let's it go.  Will I play a MMO in the next years?  Perhaps, perhaps not.  How can I say?  My life can change a lot, I may have more or less time, I may enjoy other games.

I didn't start playing games with MMOs, and my last game won't be a MMO.  Of that, I am sure.  How many more MMOs will be tried, I have no idea, could be none or dozen.  Right now, I am playing games on Facebook, they kinda remind me old BBS games...and guess what, there are more players in my "main game" than in all MMOs combined together.  MMOs are a neat and nice dream, and I would definitely enjoy dreaming about 1 again...not just anyone!  Afterall, I did write a complain letter to Zynga about some gameplays issues in their Facebook game, I guess you won't change the monkey!

I will most likely try Champion Online, not in the near future however.  The other?  I wish them the best...

Eh guys,

As years passby, our interests change, our dedication and motivation also change.  Games are just that, games.  Which, by everymean should be taken overly seriously, with a lot of drama and "it the end of the world" mindset, afterall, they are games.  One who cannot take a game seriously, has very little imagination.

At an era, I was believing that with some obscur writing l33t skills, or searching around, you might be rewarded by finding the appropriate game, but I came to realize, this is an utopy.  It may, or not, exist, and it has absolutely nothing to do with me or you, but everything to do with their team and how they figure they could make $ by making this game.  Which lead to the only logical conclusion, no matter how long it could take for some to reach it (some may never get there, but, that kinda cool, they are desesperate optimist who believe in a perfect MMO, and I wouldn't dare throw them a rock, me who did believe in many fairy tales such as talking to Devs and putting sense into them, geez, rather talk to a rock, at least the rock isn't going to fast-talk you in anyway!)

Well, new jobs, a GF, new responsabilities, perhaps a house and/or kids in the future (oh yeah guys, you should be afraid of the new noobs that it would bring forth on you all, I can already hear the shouting by zone in against something which is fundamentally "wrong").  Anyway...I disgress.

I guess, I am, kinda looking, to know if a hardcore or casual PvE solo/grouping game has come out or may come out (Oh, I can already hear the peoples with twisted ideas about what is hardcore and associating it to their gameplay rather than to the harshness of any other gameplay, but, I disgress here).  I have absolutely no patience or tolerance toward foreign gameplays (I know, I should not be looking in MMO if I don't want to raid or PvP, I heard you, bazillions of times, but MMO are, no matter what you say, an ideal setting for grouping or friendly competition and this definitely could justify such a game or server).

Now, I hear the GF approaching and...mind you, she think I am cured, and no more a gamer.  I guess, this is a weakness and a sin, which, I may, or not, indulge in again, in the future...and the quantity has yet to be determined, based on my interest on the products and what is happening in my life around.  That's been said, have a great day, answer me positively, constructively, or even flame me away (within the rules, regulations, laws and moderations eligibilities of this new MMORPG.com era, which I am totally unaware of, in fact...everything is possible...this website could even just be a parade for mafia activities now and be empty and this email totally wasted, but...I dunno)

Talk to you all...eventually.

Simple...

Just that the BEST at what I am doing, is someone doing this exact activity.

Getting this simple sentence working without having an extremely dumb set of rules, is a challenge in itself.  Can you make it so, that the best soloers in your game, are peoples who solo?  While making sure, the best groupers in your game are peoples who groups?  And ideally, you would have to do both if you want to be good in both...rather than a simplistic setting where everyone is good at everything (kinda dumb and remove the interest to do harder stuff).  And so on...  If you implement a gameplay, it should be self sufficient, from day 1, until the end.  A newbie in this gameplay should be drooling looking at someone playing said gameplay, not someone waiting for his "other gameplay" to be available and just killing time...his arrogant and undeserving attitude would kill the "side" gameplay.

So, an extremely simple sentence, yet soo many ramifications, soo many traps, soo many challenges, to just get this simple truth, which apply to Real Life, also apply to your game.  The best blacksmith, well, he shoulds be a blacksmith, don't you think?  Unless blacksmithing isn't a worthy gameplay, then it can be something simple, bad, time consuming, in order to keep peoples busy while they are waiting on their real gameplay, whatever it is...but then, don't go advertising you have a blacksmithing gameplay if it is merely a filling activity for peoples playing something else.  A gameplay, to be advertised, should be self-sufficient.

LOL, I don't anymore.

I did play EQ until I get incredibly annoyed with the raiding mentality, I want to group, or to solo, never to raid.   Cost many later MMO the fact I wouldn't even try them.

I play CoV/CoH until I got aggravated beyond repair at always losing the toys they initially gave me.  Nerf, nerf again, more nerfs, always nerfing.  I am still aggroed on the first nerf I suffer...so eventually, there was only 1 logical conclusion, me leaving or playing other characters...I try the other characters, but they continue their nerfs on these as well.  For the sake of balance, they lost my interest as a player...I am an achiever, an hoarder, that which you gave me, you never take back.

Since that...I am mostly playing tiny games such as D&D tiny adventures on Facebook!  Still need to get my first character to a score of 28k!  :P

My interest into the genre is also at an all time low.  In fact, I was more interested in the first BBS games than I am currently in the MMOs as a whole.  I will try some more MMOs...eventually.  But that isn't anymore on my agenda, the genre might as well disappear, I wouldn't shed a tear.  I try really hard to convince peoples, to no avail, they keep doing their stuff, the way they think is okay...but thing is, in entertainment, you can do some stuff, you have some freedom, but you cannot make a player play a game which he doesn't want to (raiding) or changing the rules non-stop and destroying their achievements (nerfs and smoother XP progression).

Some of my friends are trying to convince me to play LotRO or give WoW a chance, but I am not going to play these.  :)

There are other grouping games, it doesn't have to be a MMO.  It was a natural choice and cute and everything, but the price these devs ask is out of balance (raid/nerfs) and cannot be meet.

Originally posted by Yamota

I know all new MMORPGs claim to be the next generation MMORPG but I think WAR has quite alot going for it to be able to claim that:

1. PvP centered advance system. Get exp while you advance and not as en "end game" like all other MMORPGs.
2. Tanks are actually useful in PvP and not only for PvE. They can guard and taunt that works on other players.
3. Healers are not heal bots. Archmages and Zealots (dont have experience with Shamans and Rune Priests) can actually dish out a decent amount of damage and can also buff and crowd control to some extent. First MMORPG I played where I actually enjoyed playing an healer.
4. Morale. Gives you extra powers depending on how well its going for your team. Definetely innovative.
5. Build up attacks. Classes like Archmages, Bright Wizards and Sword Masters can build up to stronger attacks by performing either one type of spells/abilities or a combination of spells/abilities. Again innovative.

However I feel there are some areas that they taken the easy way out:

1. Hardcoded teams. This is not good and defeats the purpose of MMORPG where you should be free to choose your allies and not have the devs do it for you. This has been done in basically all MMORPGs, new approach maybe?
2. Same class types as all other MMORPGs. Healers, tank, dps, CC are all here and act pretty much the same as in other classes (specially the nukers). Can someone invent a new system? Getting tired of the same type of classes in all MMORPGs.
3. Weak/no death penalty. Turns the game into an FPS when death have no consequences and takes away alot of the excitement when fighting. WoW started it and all other MMORPGs are following suit.
4. RvR doesnt go all the way. By that I mean that there doesnt seem to be a real sense of victory or defeat if you lose a region/scenario, just some bonuses. In a real war then a defeat could be devestating, not so in WAR. Again turns the game more into an FPS and it feels like a threadmill that can never end.

Anyway, as a whole I am very pleasently surprised on how innovative the game is and I recommend others who havent tried to give it a shot. I will be subscribing soon and then, hopefully, I will get some EU trial keys to give away

1- Already the case in City of Heroes/Villains.

2- Already the case in City of Heroes/Villains.

3- Already the case in City of Heroes/Villains.

4- Already the case in City of Heroes/Villains, in a variant form as a side bonus for the whole zone.

5- Already the case in City of Heroes/Villains.

Yet, CoH/V success is mostly due to it PvE, not it PvP.

I guess this invalide your argument...yet I have always said CoH/V was 10 years ahead of all competitors, PvP and PvE wise...yet too casual, but...eh, that is kinda cool I guess.

I had fun in Ryzom, which neither other title can claim.  I play it for a month I think...

So for me, I would go with Ryzom, understanding it is never going to be big...yet the dreamers at the start where planning lot of things.  Just seeing a glimpse of that dream is worth it.

AoC and WAR are both stuck in the arrogance of devs who think they can make you play what they want you to play instead of allowing you to play what you want to.  It is...unbearable and unpractical in both cases, from a PvE-endgamegrouper mindset.  Where Ryzom could have an underbudget argument and still leaving you some room to be happy, AoC and WAR both have heavy funding and a total lacklusting disrepect of most gameplays in the game.

Maybe the Atlantica game is worth it, I didn't have the energy to check it out.  Too many disappointments in the past...such as WAR and AoC.  At least I didn't pay a penny to either devs group.  So I can sleep well at night.  This gamer is getting grumpy and old. :P