Wrong.

And I, personnally, would like "soft-core PD" (lives per month), this rank me among the peoples who would enjoy among the harshest penalties...and I concede the fact that the Death Penalties are merely 1 tool among many other.

Trying to simplify everything to 1 single data isn't realistic unless, this data is removing the fun from the game.  I am sure, we can find plenty of peoples who would not mind not dying at all.

That's been said, I do believe each server should have a different death penalty.  Where would most peoples flow and play?  Most likely on the light penalties, at least at start.  But eventually, the long lasting communities might show up on medium to harsh penalties servers.

See, IMHO, you need to find a system where the casuals and the hardcore both feel some dread about dying, without feeling dishearted if their character die.  See, losing 10 XP to a guy playing 1 hour per month, this is all you need, it could even be a DEBT system.  You don't need to punish him further.  But to a guy efficient and playing a dozen of hours everyday...it COULD be a thrill to add more.  I really believe that a server (not the whole game) where peoples who died too often can't play their favorite character for the remaining of the month, this would be a grand idea.  To make this idea workable, you may want to give these players a "sense/reason" to want to play there, perhaps that server has a few more options on a layer or another, perhaps some rewards, or an option that isn't available on the "casual servers".

In fact, why does everything has to be available everywhere?  I know, devs work hard.  But, putting limits and restrictions beforehand on the players is also key to the success.  Rewards have to be awarded approprietedly.  Giving everything to everyone would make as much sense as the raiding system in EQ!   See, players have to be able to be good and achieve stuff at what they care for.  Raiding content might be available only on some servers, yet the loot tables on these servers might be working completely differently.  Why prevent a soloer from earning the ultimate sword of utter obliteration if that player isn't going to do anything but solo?  You want to lose a player?  There should be means to acquire it, in his own way of playing, on the appropriate server.  See, on the test server, everyone can be any level, any class, have any loot they desire...it is the test server.  On the solo server, everything should be earnable by soloing, you don't like it, go play on a server with a higher challenge, where you know that peoples equipped with the items are "deserving" of it.

IMO, there could be a "I win button" server.  As long as peoples on my server, earned everything by grouping...and peoples who died too often are prevented to play more this character for the remaining of the month...I would have a blast on such a server.

Now, having different servers rules bring many other questions...and 1 of them is, can friends from different servers play together, and if so, under which rules?  IMO, there should be 1 instanced server, where peoples from every server play together their character...but what they bring there (levels, XP, gear, is subject to rules...for example, an item earned on your server might need a special tag to be brought over there, otherwise it is left on the homeserver...what you can earn there is also subject to rules).

This could become quite complex, while remaining extremely simple.  Conversions systems aren't a hard thing.

But basically, hars death penalties, are 1 aspect, among many other, and IMO, it should be the case on SOME servers.

Best?  I don't know.

The 2 I remember the most:

CoX:  Each level you get to specialised 2 powers, or 1 twice...and every now and then you get a power.  It is simple, but it is addictive, and it works.  You level up, new power, new slots.  I think the enhancement where detering, since I didn't get the feeling the choice was really there, you have a few cookie cutter, might as well just have an automatic upgrade and focus on what work.  But, when they bring in the set...now, this was getting interesting.  The main advantage of this system are:  Casual, Simple, easy to figure...hard to master completely, yet easy to "succeed" and be decent too good.

EverQuest AAs:  Hate them as much as you want, but the ability to earn more XP to get precise bonuses where something I really did like...but this is extremely grindy.  But...I really like to get these...each of them...even the resists!  Afterall, many peoples on my server honestly think I was the first character to max the first 5 AAs trees...may or not have been the case, I wasn't competing, I was maxing it.  When they add the last 2 trees, I really had great fun, stopping to max the less "efficients AAs" to work on the new paths which where more worth it, before resuming the old ones...

Both of these systems have 1 big advantage:  EASY TO UNDERSTAND...the funniest thing is...CoX was harder too master, even if EQ was definitely longer and grindier.  (CoX is a rework of Diablo tree for those who still haven't figure that much out, but it was refined and improve a LOT).

Overly complex guys.

Me, as an achiever, gimme things to achieve, or lose me.  As simple as that.

Forcing me to raid won't get you that.  I am extremely patient, dedicated, focused, determined, but, at the basic, it must remain something I enjoy, something I play and focus the way I choose...aka, for me it is grouping and/or solo.   Other things to achieve such as tradeskills?  Perhaps, as long as they are either interesting and/or not frustrating.

Build a yadda yadda yadda world for yadda yadda yadda...well...I am neither an explorer, nor a killer, nor a socialiser (althought I may enjoy each aspect).  If you want to see an Anofalye populating your world, gimme things to achieve...endlessly ideally.  Because if I run out of achievement, either because they are none, I earn all, or I decide they are not achievable (raiding), then you lose the player.

Now that my schedule and free time is more limited, this is extremely important to be understood, I won't bear with critical flaws such as seen in EQ (raiding), or CoX (Nerf-0-thon, geez, can I achieve and not fight to be un-achieved by some nazi freaks who is busy on game balancing something I don't even care for(PvP?  What's that?  oh, this is the side activity which will always remain a side activity!))

See, I reach level 350 in Mafia War (Facebook) with no purchase of anything and with no outside help and no cheating, playing by the rules...waiting for my energy to fills back.  Zynga devs are also PvP-driven, but, I built up my stamina to 30, which is kinda optimal for some XP earning, and everything else goes in what I like.

What if I am done in a month or two?  Well, I will jet out until the game open new stuff and then, I will be back in, rushing in.  Perhaps I will start a 2nd or even a 3rd toon to max.  What If I am unable to reach the top?  That's can be a lot more edgy...I play to excel, to be prime in my stuff...if I don't reach the max, but I see about nobody reaching it and most peoples not ahead of me but a very few who "deserve it", I will continue...if I lose faith in the system.

I don't think there is a clear: Must be able to max it in a month, in 2 months, or endless and impossible to max.  It is how it is built and what dreams it allows me to uphold.  See, if I am playing a character, and in my classe/field there are about 10 other characters on the whole server who are "competing" with me (I have a good ego, so this could be read: better than me but I somehow think I am better), I have my fuel to always advance my character...beating them or just remaining in the platoon is definitely succifient to keep me dreaming, as long as somehow, I can dream of doing it.  Actually reaching it or not, is pointless.   There have to be milestones which are significants on the roads, new powers, new abilities, news graphics, new options...on the way.  But the details...hardly matter.

My 2 favorites MMOs where EQ (grind-o-meter) and CoX (Almost a I did it button).  They are kinda at both extreme of the grind...which I played most?  I don't know.  I have 2 characters max level in EQ and my twinks are not worth naming, and 1 of the 2 character max level was definitely "important", as the other one would have been a "great casual" at best.  In CoX, I think I have maxed about 10 characters and have countless alternates worth naming in comparaison...so both paths actually work.

Grind or not?  Who cares?  As an "hardcore achiever", I will be happy with either.  If I max too fast, I will play other games and do other stuff until the devs add more to earn, if I take almost until expansion to max, then I will focus on this game more.  Which is better, higher focus or just coming back each time new stuff to earn?  Not sure.  Both works.  I came back for CoX a LOT and would still be coming back if not for the *&%@@(*&%#* nerfs.

From an achiever point of view, the deepness of the grind doesn't really matter...and if this doesn't matter for an achiever, how could this matter for non-achiever players?  Socialisers/Explorers/PvPers always complains about the achievements requirements, perhaps how it is done is more important than the lenght of it.

Great post.

Of course, I would disagree about FFXI, but I can't say anything about the game, I can only say I purchase it at release, was never able to play it and my account was erased after the 3 months thing, which I heard they don't do anymore.  Since I am nowhere any game inclined as I used to be (eh, life goes on for me as well as everyone else, believe it or not)...the fact I consider I waste $80 back then (must be worth more than $100 now), it seems extremely unlikely I would ever even dare to try any SquareEnix product again in my life...plenty of games for what time I have left to grant them, without me reconsidering games company who somehow manage to draw my ire...as negative feelings are extremely harsh to get rid off.

Ryzom was a great game, had a lot of fun there on the English server (screw it, I'm so not playing with these scranny little french speakers...geez, "wedoitmonthslaters" players...niak niak niak...sorry, not my type!).  Ryzom was too hardcore for me, and coming from me, at that moment when I used to have a LOT of free time...geez....that's quite a sentence, yet, at the same time, if you have bazillions free time and look for a great game, gotta agree.

DAoC...my memories of this game are...dwindling.  They where kinda positives, yet...I play it what?  2 weeks?  How long ago?  8 years ago?  More?  Geez...didn't hold me back then, wouldn't today.

The other 2 where not granted a try.

Saying I have a different opinion than the poster doesn't invalide his opinion nor mine, in fact, I appreciate his...maybe I will try 1 of the other 2 game eventually...althought I have to play Aion and Champion online and I don't have the free time right now...perhaps later...or in a decade!  :P

I have to try this game...eventually.  Or Aion...or...I dunno.

I really enjoy focusing on 1 game, no matter how silly the game.  And right now, I am unsure if I could trust a MMO again.  Perhaps, perhaps not.  I feel compelled to try it...yet...I don't feel as trying it now, always as...what if it is another disappointment?  Right now, I don't know...and if they are crazy nerfing, well, I don't have to cope with it.

Hehe, I am just enjoying Fantasy Wars right now...niak niak niak.  Perhaps a MMO again..."soon"...who know?

Hehe... I am reading this, and...I smile.

I will never accept any nerf to my characters, period.  So, it is a good thing I am not playing yet.

See, why I am playing a game where I INVEST thousands of hours on 1 character, always advancing this character, if this advancement is subject to constant changements based by the whim of the devs?  If you want to nerf and change rules, why bother with levels in the first place?  Remove the grind completely or enforce and support your rules, once and for all, either way totally, but not both.

For me it is time Cryptic answer this basic questions:  Levels and rigidity, or game rules change which may alter the game completely and no grind at all.  Those walking in the middle of the road, they get slammed.

You have to reach a point where there is a choice, levels/grind or nerfs/majorgamechanges.  Changing the rules AFTER player grinds is a slap in the face of those players, it is a: we don't care about your FUN.

Something which offer always MORE of what the player likes in order to progress in the "most efficient ways".

You like to PvE-grind, then grind yourself, and everyone who will grind better than you, they are grinding as well.  You like to PvP, than PvP away and anyone who kick your sorry @$$ earn it while PvPing, whatever there was to earn.

Just keeping this simple logic is beyond most devs.

There is a point where you just have to let's it go.  Will I play a MMO in the next years?  Perhaps, perhaps not.  How can I say?  My life can change a lot, I may have more or less time, I may enjoy other games.

I didn't start playing games with MMOs, and my last game won't be a MMO.  Of that, I am sure.  How many more MMOs will be tried, I have no idea, could be none or dozen.  Right now, I am playing games on Facebook, they kinda remind me old BBS games...and guess what, there are more players in my "main game" than in all MMOs combined together.  MMOs are a neat and nice dream, and I would definitely enjoy dreaming about 1 again...not just anyone!  Afterall, I did write a complain letter to Zynga about some gameplays issues in their Facebook game, I guess you won't change the monkey!

I will most likely try Champion Online, not in the near future however.  The other?  I wish them the best...

Eh guys,

As years passby, our interests change, our dedication and motivation also change.  Games are just that, games.  Which, by everymean should be taken overly seriously, with a lot of drama and "it the end of the world" mindset, afterall, they are games.  One who cannot take a game seriously, has very little imagination.

At an era, I was believing that with some obscur writing l33t skills, or searching around, you might be rewarded by finding the appropriate game, but I came to realize, this is an utopy.  It may, or not, exist, and it has absolutely nothing to do with me or you, but everything to do with their team and how they figure they could make $ by making this game.  Which lead to the only logical conclusion, no matter how long it could take for some to reach it (some may never get there, but, that kinda cool, they are desesperate optimist who believe in a perfect MMO, and I wouldn't dare throw them a rock, me who did believe in many fairy tales such as talking to Devs and putting sense into them, geez, rather talk to a rock, at least the rock isn't going to fast-talk you in anyway!)

Well, new jobs, a GF, new responsabilities, perhaps a house and/or kids in the future (oh yeah guys, you should be afraid of the new noobs that it would bring forth on you all, I can already hear the shouting by zone in against something which is fundamentally "wrong").  Anyway...I disgress.

I guess, I am, kinda looking, to know if a hardcore or casual PvE solo/grouping game has come out or may come out (Oh, I can already hear the peoples with twisted ideas about what is hardcore and associating it to their gameplay rather than to the harshness of any other gameplay, but, I disgress here).  I have absolutely no patience or tolerance toward foreign gameplays (I know, I should not be looking in MMO if I don't want to raid or PvP, I heard you, bazillions of times, but MMO are, no matter what you say, an ideal setting for grouping or friendly competition and this definitely could justify such a game or server).

Now, I hear the GF approaching and...mind you, she think I am cured, and no more a gamer.  I guess, this is a weakness and a sin, which, I may, or not, indulge in again, in the future...and the quantity has yet to be determined, based on my interest on the products and what is happening in my life around.  That's been said, have a great day, answer me positively, constructively, or even flame me away (within the rules, regulations, laws and moderations eligibilities of this new MMORPG.com era, which I am totally unaware of, in fact...everything is possible...this website could even just be a parade for mafia activities now and be empty and this email totally wasted, but...I dunno)

Talk to you all...eventually.

Simple...

Just that the BEST at what I am doing, is someone doing this exact activity.

Getting this simple sentence working without having an extremely dumb set of rules, is a challenge in itself.  Can you make it so, that the best soloers in your game, are peoples who solo?  While making sure, the best groupers in your game are peoples who groups?  And ideally, you would have to do both if you want to be good in both...rather than a simplistic setting where everyone is good at everything (kinda dumb and remove the interest to do harder stuff).  And so on...  If you implement a gameplay, it should be self sufficient, from day 1, until the end.  A newbie in this gameplay should be drooling looking at someone playing said gameplay, not someone waiting for his "other gameplay" to be available and just killing time...his arrogant and undeserving attitude would kill the "side" gameplay.

So, an extremely simple sentence, yet soo many ramifications, soo many traps, soo many challenges, to just get this simple truth, which apply to Real Life, also apply to your game.  The best blacksmith, well, he shoulds be a blacksmith, don't you think?  Unless blacksmithing isn't a worthy gameplay, then it can be something simple, bad, time consuming, in order to keep peoples busy while they are waiting on their real gameplay, whatever it is...but then, don't go advertising you have a blacksmithing gameplay if it is merely a filling activity for peoples playing something else.  A gameplay, to be advertised, should be self-sufficient.

LOL, I don't anymore.

I did play EQ until I get incredibly annoyed with the raiding mentality, I want to group, or to solo, never to raid.   Cost many later MMO the fact I wouldn't even try them.

I play CoV/CoH until I got aggravated beyond repair at always losing the toys they initially gave me.  Nerf, nerf again, more nerfs, always nerfing.  I am still aggroed on the first nerf I suffer...so eventually, there was only 1 logical conclusion, me leaving or playing other characters...I try the other characters, but they continue their nerfs on these as well.  For the sake of balance, they lost my interest as a player...I am an achiever, an hoarder, that which you gave me, you never take back.

Since that...I am mostly playing tiny games such as D&D tiny adventures on Facebook!  Still need to get my first character to a score of 28k!  :P

My interest into the genre is also at an all time low.  In fact, I was more interested in the first BBS games than I am currently in the MMOs as a whole.  I will try some more MMOs...eventually.  But that isn't anymore on my agenda, the genre might as well disappear, I wouldn't shed a tear.  I try really hard to convince peoples, to no avail, they keep doing their stuff, the way they think is okay...but thing is, in entertainment, you can do some stuff, you have some freedom, but you cannot make a player play a game which he doesn't want to (raiding) or changing the rules non-stop and destroying their achievements (nerfs and smoother XP progression).

Some of my friends are trying to convince me to play LotRO or give WoW a chance, but I am not going to play these.  :)

There are other grouping games, it doesn't have to be a MMO.  It was a natural choice and cute and everything, but the price these devs ask is out of balance (raid/nerfs) and cannot be meet.

Originally posted by Yamota

I know all new MMORPGs claim to be the next generation MMORPG but I think WAR has quite alot going for it to be able to claim that:

1. PvP centered advance system. Get exp while you advance and not as en "end game" like all other MMORPGs.
2. Tanks are actually useful in PvP and not only for PvE. They can guard and taunt that works on other players.
3. Healers are not heal bots. Archmages and Zealots (dont have experience with Shamans and Rune Priests) can actually dish out a decent amount of damage and can also buff and crowd control to some extent. First MMORPG I played where I actually enjoyed playing an healer.
4. Morale. Gives you extra powers depending on how well its going for your team. Definetely innovative.
5. Build up attacks. Classes like Archmages, Bright Wizards and Sword Masters can build up to stronger attacks by performing either one type of spells/abilities or a combination of spells/abilities. Again innovative.

However I feel there are some areas that they taken the easy way out:

1. Hardcoded teams. This is not good and defeats the purpose of MMORPG where you should be free to choose your allies and not have the devs do it for you. This has been done in basically all MMORPGs, new approach maybe?
2. Same class types as all other MMORPGs. Healers, tank, dps, CC are all here and act pretty much the same as in other classes (specially the nukers). Can someone invent a new system? Getting tired of the same type of classes in all MMORPGs.
3. Weak/no death penalty. Turns the game into an FPS when death have no consequences and takes away alot of the excitement when fighting. WoW started it and all other MMORPGs are following suit.
4. RvR doesnt go all the way. By that I mean that there doesnt seem to be a real sense of victory or defeat if you lose a region/scenario, just some bonuses. In a real war then a defeat could be devestating, not so in WAR. Again turns the game more into an FPS and it feels like a threadmill that can never end.

Anyway, as a whole I am very pleasently surprised on how innovative the game is and I recommend others who havent tried to give it a shot. I will be subscribing soon and then, hopefully, I will get some EU trial keys to give away

1- Already the case in City of Heroes/Villains.

2- Already the case in City of Heroes/Villains.

3- Already the case in City of Heroes/Villains.

4- Already the case in City of Heroes/Villains, in a variant form as a side bonus for the whole zone.

5- Already the case in City of Heroes/Villains.

Yet, CoH/V success is mostly due to it PvE, not it PvP.

I guess this invalide your argument...yet I have always said CoH/V was 10 years ahead of all competitors, PvP and PvE wise...yet too casual, but...eh, that is kinda cool I guess.

I had fun in Ryzom, which neither other title can claim.  I play it for a month I think...

So for me, I would go with Ryzom, understanding it is never going to be big...yet the dreamers at the start where planning lot of things.  Just seeing a glimpse of that dream is worth it.

AoC and WAR are both stuck in the arrogance of devs who think they can make you play what they want you to play instead of allowing you to play what you want to.  It is...unbearable and unpractical in both cases, from a PvE-endgamegrouper mindset.  Where Ryzom could have an underbudget argument and still leaving you some room to be happy, AoC and WAR both have heavy funding and a total lacklusting disrepect of most gameplays in the game.

Maybe the Atlantica game is worth it, I didn't have the energy to check it out.  Too many disappointments in the past...such as WAR and AoC.  At least I didn't pay a penny to either devs group.  So I can sleep well at night.  This gamer is getting grumpy and old. :P

I don't know.  These forums where extremely cool way back in time.  They deteriorate a little with changes, changes needed as the site get bigger and you cannot give a personnal supervision to each user and have to follow strict rules.  So, technically, more staff...so you can be more, intelligent, on the applications of the rules.  See, if someone punch someone on the street because he finds it funny, the cops should arrest him.  If someone punch another who was trying to steal them, what should the cops do?

Beside that, better and more interesting MMOs which don't always resolve around PvP/RvR/Raiding.  :P  I know, Kunou is a God and roxor, so why not ask?  :P

I wouldn't have bothered.

But I keep seeing these posts asking for some negativity about their game.  WAR flawed due to the fact it shaft everyone who doesn't share the vision of the "endgame".  Deal with it, WAR is always going to be that way, from a PvE-grouping point of view it is never going to be appealing.  Yadda yadda talk all you want, a player must either PvP and/or Raid to acquire some gear which would be helpfull in groups...no time to waste with such a lacking design.

I got a job in the past...and most of the interview they where asking me questions about the MMOs I was playing.

What can be viewed as a flaw can also be viewed as a strong point.  Depending on the job.

And habbits-wise, I wouldn't be concerned myself, someone who play MMOs a lot is likely to have few other habbits which may conflict with the job and he will lose interest in his MMOs soon enought, assuming it is ever a problem, which I don't think it is.

So I would say this is mostly a myth.  Of course, there can always be some weird folks out there, but who care for them?  I am sure someone may refuse to hire someone because he is good looking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVDejmZajv0

Axxis --- Stay don't leave me

2008 was the most boring year of my MMO existence.  I almost completely stop playing them. 

The main issue here is to know where to draw a line, this is a human, this is a monkey.  Changes are suddens, but often 1 feature/aspect at the time.

Originally posted by skeaser

30 years old and just got your cherry popped? I'm going to go out on a limb here and call you a troll or a liar about your age. You know, you can have sex and MMOs right? Time management friend...figure it out.

So what?

Ain't popped yet!  Hardly care!  1 day, the right person.  Until then, sorry, but I am busy pulling this train on your guild so they can wipe...again!  :P