Originally posted by Fkinglinux

Originally posted by ZivaDomini

Believe it or not, but I can.

It's my game, my money, my character, my time..all of it. It's mine. There's nothing anywhere that says I can't come and go as I please.

 

So yes, I can determine the rules. If you don't like my rules, don't play with me.

 

Incorrect, if you don't like the game rules, which you don't determine, don't play the game.

I think you misunderstood where I was going with that.

I was implying that, if you bothered me and I was no longer having fun, I could simply turn the game off. To which, nothing ingame or out of game prevents me from doing so.

Since it is My game, money ect ect I am the one who determines if I play or not, no one else. Those are the mechanics I was refering to.

Originally posted by Mrbluray

Originally posted by Fkinglinux

Originally posted by ZivaDomini

The obvious lack of logic is astonishing in this thread.

Griefing is the action of deliberately trying to ruin the entertainment of others. Griefing is not killing someone in a game via PvP. That is simply another form of entertainment. When I am killed, I am not being griefed, I am being defeated in combat.

However, when I am attempting to leave an area, and am killed. Come back to life making another attempt to leave and no longer am trying to fight, and am killed again. That is griefing. You are killing a player who is no longer trying to PvP, but merely leave the battlefield.

You know I am not fighting, You know that I am trying to leave the area, yet you are continously attacking and killing me to which you gain no EXP, currency, nor other ingame items. You are merely doing it to bother me.

 

There is no honor, no glory, in killing those who are not fighting back. There are no emotions involved. There is a difference between a warrior trying to be the best, and a murderer.

 

 

You can have all the e-honor you want. Because in the real world, your ingame lives mean nothing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Killing a player who is trying to leave a battlefield isn't griefing, its a route :P

  Does this mean the North Vietnamese were griefing the US Army during Vietnam?  :P

Ah, I've had the pleasure of serving in real life combat. Fortunately in real life there are no log outs, drops and time outs. There's just combat. :)

Also unfortunately, there is a such thing as retreat to which the rules of engagement state you do not continue to force combat.

P.S. The Army is kind of like the ghetto of the U.S military.

Believe it or not, but I can.

It's my game, my money, my character, my time..all of it. It's mine. There's nothing anywhere that says I can't come and go as I please.

So yes, I can determine the rules. If you don't like my rules, don't play with me.

The obvious lack of logic is astonishing in this thread.

Griefing is the action of deliberately trying to ruin the entertainment of others. Griefing is not killing someone in a game via PvP. That is simply another form of entertainment. When I am killed, I am not being griefed, I am being defeated in combat.

However, when I am attempting to leave an area, and am killed. Come back to life making another attempt to leave and no longer am trying to fight, and am killed again. That is griefing. You are killing a player who is no longer trying to PvP, but merely leave the battlefield.

You know I am not fighting, You know that I am trying to leave the area, yet you are continously attacking and killing me to which you gain no EXP, currency, nor other ingame items. You are merely doing it to bother me.

There is no honor, no glory, in killing those who are not fighting back. There are no emotions involved. There is a difference between a warrior trying to be the best, and a murderer.

You can have all the e-honor you want. Because in the real world, your ingame lives mean nothing.

24 (ahead of the game already)

not just overweight, but insanely obese (YES! I'm still way ahead of the curve)

Depressed!? Why I just tried to off myself last night!

By god I'm going to win! No one is ahead of me! Me ftw.

So if you agree, how can you say that they build grinds?

If you don't have to do it, then how is the game built around doing it? You never must grind. It's your choice, but you don't have to.

I have obtained everything I desired in games without grinding. Did other players have it first? Of course, but I bet I had more fun getting there. Do I max out characters? yup, am I the first? Nope. But from the looks of these forums about how much everyone hates grinds, it seems like I have much more fun getting maxed out than many other players.

I have memories of all night missions where I'd level up, and not even realize it. There's been times, as I'm sure others have had, where I'd click on my stats and realized they'd gone up, or that I had more points to use.

Why? Because I don't grind. I just play.

:D

P.S I don't discuss to win, I discuss to share thoughts.

You can deny the meaning of grind all you want, but if I do not do the same thing repeatedly, I am not grinding.

You don't HAVE to do missions to get experience to level. You choose to.

And what do you mean "if you have fun doing it I guess?" It's a game. The ONLY purpose IS to have fun. There's nothing else. You play games to be entertained. Any other reason is setting yourself up for failure. If you have fun being at level 1 for 3 years, you're winning the game.

MMOs don't build grinds. Players build grinds by repeatedly doing the same task to reach a goal.

If you played an mmoRPG as that, a Role Playing game, then you'd practically never "grind." Simply because no one alive can sit there for days on end hunting, fishing, building ect. You need rest, food, water other aspects of the game.

Even asian grind machines don't MAKE you grind. There's other missions to do, other ways to play. It's you, the player, that forces yourself to do the same thing over and over and over.

But you can't simply say that a repeated action is grinding. In doing that EVERYTHING is a grind. Blinking, breathing, going to work, eating ect ect.

That definition is too shallow. Which is why the definition add the monotonum aspect. Because repeated actions aren't grinding, they're a necessary part of life. You MUST repeat actions. However, doing so to nauseum is the grinding aspect because you're not longer enjoying it, you're doing what you dislike to reach a goal that you do like.

I think fishing was my favorite thing. No one bothered me, just me, my goblin, and the water.

Don't get me wrong, sometimes I'd fish for 1-2 hours. But it was never boring, and I wasn't doing it to gain a level or anything. I genuinly was enjoying it. Chatting with passerby's.

By no means am I saying it's wrong to grind, or that it shouldn't be done. But it's not fair to say it MUST be done, as some are stating. I still maxed my character out in SWG in multiple professions and never did I grind. I did the theatre park missions, raids, PvP, I did the dancer profession and did architect. They were the less exciting ones, but I still enjoyed them. Giving people health buffs before they went out on missions.

But, I also don't care to be the top player, or in the top guild. Those are not of any interest to me. Just a few laughs while I play with friends in a game is all I need.

Grinding IS the repetition of a task. I don't know about you, but that is mind numbingly boring to me.

Whether that is entertainment for you or not is not something I can decide upon. However, since I do nothing to the point of nauseum, it is not by definition grinding.

if I fish and catch 5 fish, then go join a raid and do 1 raid, then go to the tavern and talk for 30 minutes, then go and PvP for 30 more minutes...is this grinding? No, because I am not doing the same task repeatedly. Am I leveling, or gaining some form of experience? Yes. Is this how I play every game? Yes.

Therefore, I do not grind.

The point, is that I do nothing that is not entertaining. I do not play JUST to level. That's like reading a book just to finish it. I don't do that, either. I read it for my entertainment, if the book ceases to entertain me, I stop reading it. The same with a game. If of 80 levels the game ceases to entertain me at level 23, I stop playing.

Despite any of your opinions as to what Grind means.

Grind:drudgery: hard monotonous routine work.

Monotonous:humdrum: tediously repetitious or lacking in variety

Now that you know what grind means, I can tell you I've never once done this in any MMO I've played. Just a list:

FFXI. MxO. SWG. WoW. Graalonline. Ryzom. Eve. CoH. CoV. Jumpgate. Lineage 2. and that one where you're basically a vehicle in a post-apocolyptic world. I forgot what it was called.

I can say I don't recall ever grinding in any of those. Why? because I don't do the same task repeatedly. I don't do the same raid constantly to 1 piece of item.

I do a mission, I go somewhere else. I do a raid, I go somewhere else. I go fishing, I go somewhere else. ect ect. It's not grinding if you're not doing the same task repeatedly. It's simply playing the game. Sometimes I'd just explore, wander around the terrain and see what I could find.

The point, is that I still leveled, I still had fun. I never had to grind. Maybe you reached the max level before I did, but I never hated playing. If I was ingame, I was more than likely having fun.

I don't complain about grinding, because I don't grind.

You guys have had some pretty sad friends if going to bars and buying overpriced, watered down drinks was your teen/twenties experience.

I'm 24 and I can honestly say I've no desire at all to go to a bar or get drunk. Do I get drunk? Sure, but very rarely. In fact the beer in my fridge has been there since March. Yeah, that's right...March. Gross, huh?

A lot of my friends are very similar. We go out to dinner and have real conversations. We discuss science, politics, whatever. Just today I had a conversation with a 22 year old friend of mine about the maturity of the human specie, and how we can't accept our roles in society because we're too busy acting like children. Even the adults, too busy worrying about me me me, not enough on what would benefit our (OUR, not just mine, or your) lives.

But then, I typically only hang out with that type of crowd. The "WOOO! Lets get drunk tonight!" group never appealed to me.

I play for quite the opposite really.

I'm married, one of my good friends lives with me, and I have a job that I've been at for almost 4 years. So, I'm fairly established. I play to get away from all of the responsibility. To be silly and playful, because in real life I'm the one who has to take charge, pay the bills, yell at bill collectors who over-charge for something we didn't even want.

I play because life is too busy sometimes.

"Staying at 60 removes the grind, the need to depend on others and you aren't playing Blizzards game."

So, not grinding means I'm not playing a game by Blizzard anymore?

Something people are forgetting. Whether it's because some of you are young, just never don't really have much experience in the origin of MMORPGS.

MMORPGS came from PnP RPGs. The whole point of it is that you ARE the hero. You ARE the elite omg badass. You ARE Mace Windu, you ARE Jango/Bobba Fett, you ARE Luke Skywalker.

You ARE the hero/villain of this story. That was the point. That's one of the biggest complaints (not from gamers themselves, but PnP players and some developers that I've watched on TechTV and read about.) The complaint that people are losing that feeling of being the hero/villain because so schmo ragtag can kill them.

But that's beside the point. You are the hero/villain. You should be able to kill them.

"Edit: look, I am well aware of the English meaning of the word. In my opinion the definition of "persistent" in context of games, implies change to the game's world while you're not there. The more drastic the change, the more persistent the game world feels."

I think you're honestly thinking of dynamic. Because what you've just said is basically what dynamic is. The more drastic the change, the more dynamic the world feels.

The game IS persistant. No matter what it feels like. It just is. It's like saying is their air or not? You can't see it, taste it, smell it ect ect, but it IS there. It's a fact. The same with Persistance. The world IS persistant no matter what it feels like.

However, people keep trying to add the word dynamic to the word persistant, and make them 1 definition. They're just not. They are two seperate words, with two different meanings. One can be related to the other, but they are not inherantly related.

Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe

Originally posted by ZivaDomini

You guys are trying to put the definitions of Dynamic and Static into the word Persistant, and I don't know why.

Persistant:

Def 1.Never Ceasing. When you log off, is the game still there? Yes. It does not cease to exist.

Def 2. Retained. Again, when you log off, is it still there? yes.

Def 3. Continuity. Does things continue to happen? Yes. People still play, missions are still accomplished.

Nowhere, in any of those 3 definitions do any of the other things you guys are talking about occur. They are not even hinted at.

There is nothing to stop the game from being Static, or Dynamic. However there is no dynamic persistance, or static persistance. The game IS persistant. They are both adjectives describing the game itself. The game would be a massively multiplayer online role playing game, where the world is dynamic AND persistant. Not Dynamic persistant.

 

The problem with your definition is that even a Counter-Strike server that runs the same map 24/7 could be considered a "persistent world."

That's not "my" definition. That is THE definition of Persistant. Look it up. It's plainly defined in dictionary.com.

FPSs are NOT persistant worlds. Because the worlds reset each time.Whenever you end the game, that world ends. It no longer exists in any form at all. The maps reset entirely.  Just because your character saves it's rewards or unlocks or whatever you call them, doesn't make the world persistant. It simply means your character was saved.

A persistant world and a saved character are not the same thing.

Editted for better definition.

I don't see how anyone can like the Spiderman films. Especially Spiderman 3.

I used to be such a huge fan of Warcraft until WoW came out. I can only hope the movie won't destroy anymore of my love.

With DX11 and windows 7 just around the corner, I definately wouldn't be upgrading right now.