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All Posts by baff

All Posts by baff

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4260 posts found

Thanks all, it's been a blast.

You are all extremely saintly people for putting up with my nonsense.

Originally posted by generals3
 

The lack of respect for the law enforcement is something i have noticed to only exist in neighboorhoods you don't to walk in, in my country at least. Now i don't know how cops are in the UK so i cannot claim your dislike towards em is unjustified but what i have noticed in my country is an institutional persecution of cops.

They aren't allowed to do what they have to and when they do it turns against them. Stopping angry mobs? Nah, that's provocation. Patrolling in uniforms in certain areas? in your dreams, it's provocation!

Cops have been transformed in black sheep in criminal neighboorhoods. And it's normal , they are the nemesis of society's scum. But it is sad institutions give in to that.

 

Here it exists not only in criminal neighbourhoods, but also in criminalised neighbourhoods.

There is only so many times a policeman can refuse to help you before he loses his authority.

 

And there is no point him blaming his guidlines. If he is perosnally responsable enough to pick up his pay check he is personally responsable enough to provide the service. 

Of all the people I am willing to take a jobsworth mentality from a policeman in my time of need is not one.

 

But that, I feel, is the culture of the police here. which for me places them on the same moral scale as a fraudster. They take the money for a job they refuse to do and we the people have zero recourse against them. They are a law unto themselves.

All we can do sensibly do is co-operate with everything they ask of us.

 

 

I would like to feel sympathy for the damned if you do damned if you don't nature of police relations with the public. The problem is, they never have come good for me even once. In the end you have to earn the benefit of the doubt. Respect has to be earned by your actions rather than just implicitly commanded by your uniform.

I certainly feel that absolute and unquestionable co-operation is the safest way to deal with the police.

However, righteous indignation is a powerful thing. To expect people to just bend over and take it when they are being unfairly treated is not somehting I am able to do. 

It may be smartest to do that, but when someone is antagonising you, the smart response is not always the first one made.

 

 

I have also been lippy with armed policemen in my youth. Something I would not dream of doing now. And yes a policeman does have to be 110% with gun.

As I always endeavour to be myself.

But an accident made with a gun is not something that can be rectified. Which is why I wholeheartedly do not approve of them being issued them. They are 99 times in a hundred going to be in a position of ambiguity. Those guys had tasers and mace. They could have arrested him in a more controlled enviroment. There are any number of ways they could have got him without provoking a gun fight.

But just like me, cops like guns. They want to be the hero they saw on TV. They are looking for armed engagements, just as soldiers are. It's why they signed up for the armed police inthe first place. 

I've killed the wrong things before. Tragedies I cannot take back. I cannot make ammends for. I cannot make good. If I can do it after a life time of experience with guns, so can a fresh faced copper. There are far too many cops with guns round here these days. They are a serious danger to society.

Originally posted by EQTarbos
Originally posted by C-B-M
Originally posted by baff

As I understand it, the cops shot an innocent and unarmed black man to death in his car. A man who was well known to and well loved by his community.

Why did they do that?

He was a drug dealer that was carrying a gun. The U.K. has a strange translation of the word "innocent".

 We have something in the U.K. called the presumption of innocence.

He was an alleged drug dealer with a gun.

 

The persons who made that allegation being the persons who shot him dead. So you will excuse me if I don't just out and out take their words for it. It;s not like they don't have excellent motive to lie or even just a well documented track record of making tragic mistakes.

 

For a gun toting drug dealer to have reached the age of 29 in inner city London without a criminal record is a pretty tall order. It's not an impossiblity by any means. But he isn't neatly fitting into that mould.

The presumption of innocence is what he is afforded. From me, he will get it.

 

I'd presume the policeman to be innocent too. To be acting out of error rather than mailce, for that matter. I'll take convinving that this man was armed. Sorry but there it is. My source of information is amongst the least trustworthy in the land, that's why I don't readily buy into it.

I've also been in the newspapers enough myself to know that the stories you get from the press are not to be taken as accurate information but are more an exercise in chinese whispers.

The newspapers first priority is to get a story that matches their agenda. The moment that story clarifies into something that does not, they will drop it like a stone.

 

I have also had police officers tell lies about me to the press (to make themsleves look good), and actively conspire to cover up their errors, even if that meant imprisoning me for 5 years for a crime they knew I did not commit. So I am all too aware that that sort of thing can happen.

 

I will continue to presume innocence until I am confident to the otherwise.

It's an assumption, but it feels like the right assumption to make at this time.

Originally posted by generals3
 

You need to tell me where you got that info claiming he was unarmed. Everywhere they state he had a gun. Whether he shot or not is still being investigated upon and as far as they can tell he did not shoot. but he was armed.

 

Every time the facts speak against the angry mob. you're siding with the trouble makers who are known to be big fat liars who despise any law enforcement and are willing to lie about it.

 I didn't get any information that he was unarmed. it is an assumption I had made.

The information I got was that the police had reported that he shot a policeman and another policeman had returned fire and killed him.

This information later turned out to be incorrect. (Re-inforcing my pre-conceptions and natural bias).

When it turned out that the man had indeed not shot the police despite their initial claims, I simply discounted everything they had said and went with my gut feeling. Which is that people don't get that mad about something if it is obvious that justice has been served.

 

Like many people in my country I don't have any respect for the police force at all. I typically side with trouble makers against them. I don't feel that the police is an institution that is on my side, that would piss on me if i was on fire. I resent having to pay them. I feel much safer and happier when they are not around.

Disband the police force for all I care. it;'s reached the point in this country where I feel we would be better off with the gangs.

 

In this particualr regard, yes I am.

I believe that there are real threats to my society that cannot be countered without a communal response.

As much as I believe in freedom, I believe that criminals should not be free to act in a criminal manner. There are compromises to be made here.

While I may not agree with each and every law in my country, or even abide by them, I broadly agree with the rule of law as a necessary evil that acts towards the greater good.

Sometimes we don't get to choose freedom. Sometimes we have an obligation to choose responsability instead. 

 

And i recognise that in life there will always be people for whom the pressure of responsability is too much. That can't be trusted with that much freedom.

 

 

I'm not sure that I support Iran. In my mind Iran is an enemy nation. But I am still able to respect them for their achievements. I certainly wish to encourage them in those things that they do of which I approve.

Just as I would not wish my own country to have a moon landing program but am able to readily applaud and admire the U.S. for it's.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp
Originally posted by baff

Is this freedom improving the quality of your life? Is it protecting the just against the unjust? Is it encouraguing people to distinguish right from wrong?

 
Absolutely. It's called the free market place of ideas. Without it, then SOMEONE must make the decision on what can be heard, and what cannot.
Who do you trust to make that decision? I don't trust anyone. Certainly not Politicians or the government.
This is why Totalitarian regimes, like communism, and Theocracy in the Iran, do not allow freedom of speech. They cannot compete in the market place of ideas.

 This is certainly the drawback of our way of doing things.

The question is, do the pro's outweigh the cons?

 

The thing is, I trust almost anyone to make those decisions above you. Even my government. They are the lesser evil in this regard. 

As evil as curtailing freedom of speech is, allowing yours is much worse.

If the government starts curtailing the wrong things we have some slight measure of redress, an election for example. If you are empirically allowed to say whatever you like however ,we would have no such measure of redress over you.

I am of course happy to concede that this is not a perfect arrangement. In an ideal world, extremists like you wouldn't be the way you are. But it isn't an ideal world and we still have to deal with it as best we can.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp
Originally posted by baff

When children speak out of turn, or say stupid or anti-social things it is the job of all adults to shut them up. Why would your country feel the need for such a freedom of speech?

You are not a child, and the government is not your Mommy.

 I am more dangerous than a child.

 

If your mommy was unable to bring you up to be a decent human being, the responsability to curb your bad behviour, unfortunately, falls to the government.

We don't have any high school students here. Welcome to the world outside of America where things are so different in name and system and yet still have just the same effect.

 

 

The Guardian Council is half appointed by their head of state and half elected by their government.

in my country our second chamber are all recommended by government for appointment by the Queen, (except those who are recommended by the church for appointment by the Queen).

 

 

 

Why don't you give me an historical example of a candidate that was not approved in Iran's current parliament and I will give you a history of one who is not approved in our current parliament.

 

£5 to a penny says my terrorist leaders, mass murderers, child killers and fomentors of violent politcal struggle to end the UK state are no different from anyone you can some up with from Iran.

Enemies of the state.

 

You've been to democratic Germany right? You know that the Nazi party is banned there for example? That in order to take office you have to be approved too.

That the liberal in their "liberal democracy" is not a democratically achieved liberality. It is one achieved by foreign military force.

Likewise how do you feel about the Baathist being banned from standing in Iraq. Does their democratic constitution disbar them from democracy too?

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

 

Opposition candidates are not allowed.

 Oppositon candidates are allowed. I doubt your country has as many different parties as they do somehow.

Please read your own links before posting them.

 

 

 

Yes, candidates have to be approved by the Guardian Council. Is this a problem for you?

Only candidates who agree to be bound by the system of governance can be approved. You must swear you allegiance to the constitution or you won't be approved for office.

 

Similarly in the U.K. If you are not willing to swear allegiance to the queen you can't sit in the houses of parliament. We too have a similar system fo candidate approval.

 

In the U.k. this has actually led to some republicans getting elceted but unwilling to come to parliament to vote on anything. In practise however it's a non issue. We are talking of 2 candidates out of 600.

 

Can your senators and congressmen really take office in the U.S. government without first swearing an oath of allegiance?

I doubt it somehow.

Your chaps have to be approved also.

 

 

 

 

 

Originally posted by C-B-M

I hope Iran becomes communist.  Then we can truly respect them.  Communism is the bomb!

 You can't truely respect anything foreign. You feel that you are a nation without equal.

How does it feel to live in a nation that is dependant on communism? OMG communism... LMAO. We all going begging to the commies these days mate. You might want to think twice before you start biting the hands that feed you.

 

Iran  had the option to become communist to throw us out. Cold War stylee. Instead they threw both us and commies out and started a republic of their own.

They still get on well with Russia however. A lot of Iranian students still study at Moscow University and they ship their oil to China.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp
 

 

How can you read this and consider it a democracy? Do you not see the circle of appointments and nominations, that dont' represent the people, and are not elected by the people?

Where do you see representatives in the US that are not elected by the people?

 

 

 Where did you hear that the U.S. has the only democratic system?

I come from a democratic system that also does not elect all it's representatives. We also have an uneleceted second chamber and unelected head of state.

In fact we elect a heck of a lot less of our parliamentarians than the Iranians do. (We publicly elect about 1/3 of ours, they publicly elect 95%). 

 

 

Believe it or not the U.S. isn't the only democracy around. To qualify as a democracy, you do not need to model your government institutions on the U.S.'s.

So sorry to disappoint you with that. But there it is.

 

 

We've covered this ground before. It isn't ignorance of democratic principles that leads you to come out with this stuff. I guess it's just arrogance. The firm and unshakeable belief that if it isn't done the U.S.A. way, it doesn't count.

Inspite of your nations and my nations best efforts Iran is a democracy. That doesn't mean they are a nation allied to us in any perceived war against communism you may be wishing to engage in; just that their system of government is democratic.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp
 

Who do these upstart Yanks think they are compared to us?

So what if they went to the Moon, invented Stealth Bombers, and the first nuclear bomb, and have the worlds biggest military, and invented the internet?

They suck!

 No mate, for all these reasons America rocks the big one.

Credit where it is due.

 

No credit however where none is due.

With so much to brag about already why is it that you feel the need to belittle your rivals instead of celebrate them for their own great achievements, just as you wish other people to celebrate you for yours?

What's your problem?

The Iranians have developed a spanking democratic system about which all fans of democracy and political freedom should applaud.

Do you feel that their ability to do this somehow undermines your own achievements to that same end?

 

It doesn't. The only thing it has undermined is your ability to control their government. Something which any true enemy of tyranny should be appaluding. Only you aren't any enemy of tyranny, like me you are a proponent of it.

You are an enemy of any one attempting to tyranise you and a proponent of anyone being tyranisable by you.

 

You opposition to tyranny is opportunistic only. It isn't a principled goal for you, it's a moral sounding vehicle to other ends.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

 

 

When you use the N word, you're not quoting me, or anyone else on this forum as far as I know.

 I am however using it with direct reference to your racism.

Had a person spoken about niggers or jews in the same way you routinely speak about muslims and iranians, I feel you would then be able to recognise the extreme racism of such comments. Since they don't you can't. Which is why I have. So you can. 

Why you of all people should wish to feel offended by racism is quite beyond me.

 

 

 

Would these be democratically elected Mullahs, that contorl Iran not the people? You do realise that the people don't control the country in any democracy I suppose? That they elect representtives on their behalf?

In your country I think you call them senators or congresmen perhaps?

 

Of course not all democracies elect every member of their parliaments. Many second chambers for example are full of appointee's rather than electee's. Iran like my own country has an appointed second chamber.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

I'm sure the Iranians could handle it. Their police use guns not sticks. And they have quite a bit of experience handling riots.

 

2009–2010 Iranian election protests

 

This is their equipment:

Equipment

That's police equipment, not the military. For those that don't know the MP5 is a 9mm machine gun. I've shot one, and it's a sweet machine gun. Shoots just like butter, not like the jumpy Uzi.

 The Uzi is heavier and with a slower rate of fire than MP5.

It is marginally less jumpy. Not that I would describe either as jumpy.

 

Weight dampens recoil (mass=inertia). Rate of fire increases the frequency of recoil.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp
Originally posted by baff

 

You thought you were the master race but it turns out the niggers are just as smart as you are. Oh noes! (They are much funnier too).

 

 

 

 

Since you're not actually quoting someone else that used the "N" word, it's just you using this word to describe Iranians.

I think it's offensive.

Boohoo.

I'm using this word to describe people who are being racially discriminated against. It is a provocative word but one I find appropriate to your attitudes.

I could use the word Sandniggers I suppose, since clearly you think Black people are worthy of more respect than Iranian people. But I do not recognise the difference between racism expressed towards niggers and racism expressed towards sandniggers. It's just racism to me and the word nigger best connotates that.

Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by baff

Oh. and he was innocent.

He was carrying a gun, they found it next to him after he was shot, that means he's not innocent, he had no license and the gun was modified.

"Ballistics tests on weapon found with dead man in Tottenham indicate firearm had been changed to use live ammunition"

The police officer shot him because he feared for his life he said, turns out he was right.

They also said De Menzies had a backpack full of explosives.

I'm not inclined to take their word for it at all. sorry.

 

I would add though that this is the first I have heard of any gun being produced as evidence. Should it turn out to be the truth as it may well turn out to do, I will re-appraise my conclusions at that time.

What I won't be doing is giving the police the benefit of the doubt. Their track record hasn't earnt it.

Originally posted by murdera2k6

I don't really buy into all the political undertones of poverty and recession. wealthy people got involved just as much as the poor.

Pretty much summed it up, but I only disagree with the last bit, the majority of rioters were from poor backgrounds. The rest of the idiots who rioted around the country where just opportunists..

 i saw some interviewed on TV not all were from poor homes. though more were than weren't.

There is also some good ones in the Telegraph. The model, the accountant, the olympic ambassador, the war hero.

 

Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by baff

As I understand it, the cops shot an innocent and unarmed black man to death in his car.

 

Innocent? He was part of a criminal gang and was under police curveilance.

In this picture his hands make a gun sign.

 

 While this is certainly the story the police tell and perhaps how they understood the situation. I feel that people don't tend to get that angry about a fair cop.

If you are accused a of a crime you commited, you don't get anyway as mad about it as iwhen you are accused of something you did not do. The strength of the locals reaction to this event leads me to believe the Police had got it wrong.

Oh. and he was innocent. Making a gun sign in a photo, if indeed that is what he is doing inthat photo....is nothing like the same as shooting a policeman.

It is neither a criminal act nor an action that demands he forfeit his life. A man with a gun shot dead a man without one.

 

The man who shot the unarmed man was a policeman, and the unarmed man had no criminal record and was not involved in any criminal act at the time, he was riding in the back of a taxi cab.

To add insuit to injury the police complaints department instantly seemed to be finding in favour of the police, so that the public clearly had no recourse to justice from inside the judicial system itself.

As I understand it, the cops shot an innocent and unarmed black man to death in his car. A man who was well known to and well loved by his community.

I view it as being very similar in nature to one of those LA riots where the same sort of thing happens.

 

We aren't big on gun culture here and the police have a recent history of doing the same thing in same place.

 

The Police then released a story saying they had been shot at first and all the locals knew this was bollocks, so they formed a protest march on the police station. The police responded to this peaceful march with violence. Then things really kicked off.

 

What provoked this riot in my opinion was nothing less than righteous indignation. A very motivational form of anger.

 

 

I don't really buy into all the political undertones of poverty and recession. Wealthy people got involved just as much as the poor.

There have been austerity riots here. There will be more to come. This wasn't one of them.

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