All Posts by fozzie22

SOE have begun to make Vanguard look good..a long,long way off EQ2s polish but my my its getting thier

Got to love station access.

Originally posted by Fishermage

 

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Originally posted by fozzie22
This thread new or a necro?
 
I lose track :/

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Technically, it's necro; but it's an old thread with a new twist. It was revived when the Senator in question once again trashed the playerbase.

Ohh ta :) i will mooch thru the 10 pages to find the new bits

I'll happily run round my town naked and pst the pics here if SOE gets closed down as a result of any lawsuit

I think your pretty safe from that horror show though becuase simply put you wont win against a massive company like sony,not unless you have a lot of time and a bottomless pit of money and even then i if that where the case i'd still put my money on sony,no court is going to tell any company how to produce thier product.

What SOE/LA did to SWG was wrong,moraly wrong but as for being legaly wrong i'm not so sure,the EULA whatever you think of it covers themselves for this becuase you and i agree to it and they can "enhance" any game they own any way they see fit,now of course you'll come back with the old chestnut about the refunds for the xpac and yes they were in muddy waters with it then but mark my words the lawyers at sony will have tightened up any sort of loophole that maybe could be used tighter than a hens arse in a sand storm.

Get over it i could say,i have,but i wouldnt presume to do that people invested a lot of time in the game (i know i did) and they are having trouble moving on from it,i know i miss the buggy mess that was SWG even now but i can see both sides to the story now (not the NGE that is beyond even me) but the CU i could have accepted happily in time but something had to be done with the game for all its good points it lacked any sort of direction and people in the whole like to be directed,the devs saw how WOW was doing and well the rest is history.

This forum does have a future but not the constant "bring back pre-cu" posts becuase it wont happen it really is that simple but what IMO must happen now is for to take a look at the bigger picture of the genre of MMO's and not let anything like the NGE happen again in any game.

Originally posted by bverji

Originally posted by fozzie22

.But for vanguards woes blame Brad and Sigil not SOE.

I don't blame SOE for Vanguard being crap. I blame them for releasing it  (which as you said was SOE's call) years before it was ready. Which is what SOE has done with all their games.

VG is the Brad mans folly and he did (to a point) take the blame becuase while he did dare i say it have the vision to create a hell of a gameworld he filled it with rubbish,SOE maybe could have delayed for a couple of more months than they did but when somethings a poorly coded as VG was at launch i really dont think it would have made that much difference

Originally posted by therain93

Guys, -- you're right and you're wrong.

Here's how I see you're right.  Yes, SOE changed the game radically more than a reasonable person would expect (even though that is their prerogative). If you previously bought a block of subscription time that ran beyond the duration of the NGE and decided to never play it again (i.e. never log in again), then you're within your right for a refund plus interest.

Here's where I think you're wrong. I see no way you can collect damages or even refunds because they were using money earned from subscriptions to make the change.  Any fallout that they could ahve been liable for because of monies they acquired ahead of time (i.e. the ToOW expansion) were refunded.

The fact of the matter is that no court in the country of the United States is going to issue a decision that tells a business how it should spend its revenues.  It's also not going to tell a company that it cannot change its product or service but, as I mentionend above, would likely force the company to give refunds to those pre-purchased subscribers who were affected (because they quit but never got refunded.) Anything else is a waste of time to consider.

Good post

This thread new or a necro?

I lose track :/

Originally posted by Fishermage

 

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Originally posted by fozzie22

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and i think if ncsoft, or blizzard, or turbine, or mythic, or..... anyone else published the game and released it early people would have actually played it.

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Blizzard wouldnt have released it in the state it came out in..but the big difference is this Blizzard can code games..Sigil couldnt and thats why Vanguard failed.
 
I'll say it again the sheer scale of VG was/is imense but just so poorly implimented and thats the crying shame,and for that reason Brad and his merry gang should still be hanging thier heads in shame.
 
On a side note SOE havent directly made a game post NGE have they? published for sure but not MADE any games,theres a big difference as mentioned the agency will be the game to watch how good/bad it is as they will have actually coded it from the ground up.

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It is an interesting side not that they haven't made a game since the NGE. Why do you suppose that's the case? Could it be because they know their name is mud?

If just acquiring and publishing games stains them enough they do poorly, what will an all-SOE game do? Only time will tell.

I really dont think though that SCEI and SOE care all that much wehter people think thier name is mud becuase they're aiming for a different kind of market now with console gaming becoming online out of the box,they're not restricted to just the PC gamer anymore.

I've said it before on here i'm sure that within a few years SOE will just be absorbed into SCEI and rebranded Sony Austin or some such if theres any stigma attached to the SOE name or not.

and i think if ncsoft, or blizzard, or turbine, or mythic, or..... anyone else published the game and released it early people would have actually played it.

I'll say it again the sheer scale of VG was/is imense but just so poorly implimented and thats the crying shame,and for that reason Brad and his merry gang should still be hanging thier heads in shame.

On a side note SOE havent directly made a game post NGE have they? published for sure but not MADE any games,theres a big difference as mentioned the agency will be the game to watch how good/bad it is as they will have actually coded it from the ground up.

Originally posted by smg77

Also after SOE loaned Sigil a bunch of money they put a ton of pressure on Brad and company to release the game before it was ready. SOE didn't develop Vanguard but it certainly had a hand in it's disastrous launch.

As it stands now over a year after launch its not perfect,far from it but its 100% better than the mess Sigil left it in,blame SOE for most things but in Vanguards case its a better game for thier involvement,the only shame is that the current dev team didnt make it from the off becuase simply given the world and the size of it it would have been a hell of a game (probably the closest thing to SWG size wise),but as i say SOE wanted to see some return on thier investment (as no doubt did Sigils other investors) but in no way were brad and merry band of idiots capable of bringing a game to market in stable state..SOE's dev team have taken the patient and brought it off the life support system sadly though all a bit to late IMO.

But for vanguards woes blame Brad and Sigil not SOE.

Originally posted by iwantmyswg

as far as i am looking at this i am calling a law office tomorrow.

my aim is a full lawsuit at $OE along with la and smed. i believe due to all the items i lost my jedi being made useless and all the money i lost from having my doc and entertainer along with my tkm $OE owes me alone $10000 in damages. if you are a elder jedi you should get half of that 5 grand for what $OE did.

i am willing however to drop this as long as the following happens.

$OE rolls all of the servers back to the pre-cu.

$OE says they are sorry for the pain and taking pre-cu away from us.

old devs that worked on pre-cu are hired back or moved back to swg.

fanbots are banned from the game for insulting us.

fishermage and wildcat84 are made the head of a players union and that union will have full say over what go's into swg.

Good luck with it

Originally posted by iwantmyswg

 

Originally posted by Kesran

 

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I'm not being absurd in the least; I'm being realistic. Markets are driven by minorities; not majorities. A vocal minority can kill your business. Any SW MMO that does not please pre-CU vets will fail due to bad viral marketing.

 

 

Sorry, but you are kidding yourself.  The pre-CU vets have not driven SOE to make a pre-CU server or managed to make any dent in the player figures for any of the other SOE games - this is because non 'pre-CU Vets' (i.e. - the majority of gamers) don't actually give a rats ass about their ancient grievances and certainly aren't going to be put off playing a new SW MMO just because the relatively small clique of 'vets' are still spitting the dummy out about something that is years-old news.

How you can think otherwise (or believe in the massive self importanceof the pre-CU vets your posts suggest) or that a 'please this small group or you'll fail!!' argument is 'being realistic' is beyond me.

 

we have driven alot of people away from giving $OE money for swg.

 

we have made a big dent in the other games.

not only that but look at how well a game like eve is doing. most of the swg vets went to eve and it is growing faster every day. i won't put it past eve hitting a million subs by the end of the year.

so trust me we are the players bioware wants to go after. not the warcraft kids or xbot kids but the real pc gamers.

Have you forgotten that gaming doyen EA owns Bioware now? yes they make real hardcore games dont they

Originally posted by LynxRufus

 

If it's WOW with a KOTOR skin, no.

 

Welcome to the world of MMO's in 2008

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

 

Most other companies probably wouldn't consider doing it in the first place.  The ethics involved are frankly appalling to anyone with a conscience.

 

Perhaps someone who was considering a similar move though was given pause by the NGE's result. 

What concerns me most is SOE's apparent lack of remorse regarding the whole thing.  I continue to see buggy releases for them (Vanguard came after NGE btw), and the removal of core game mechanics long after release--another Vanguard reference.

The new SWG jedi revamp will apparently penalize people for wearing particular cloaks that they may have looted or paid  significant sums for.  Once again progress is being invalidated or penalized if this is true.

My worst MMO nightmare is the idea of handing the current Smedley run SOE real dollars for in game spy gadgets in the upcoming agency game.  If SOE hasn't changed it's philosophy and ethics drastically by the time that goes live we will definitely see some intrusive legal intervention.

RE Vanguard that wasnt a SOE devolped game as you know if anything its better,no much better than it ever was while Sigil were hamfistedly coding the game,all SOE did was give them more money and forced a release date on them (mainly IMO so they could get thier hands on the game when it went tits up),but that said that game needed at least another 12 months of dev time and given Sigil had wasted $30 million of MS's money would you let them have much more time? i know i wouldnt.

Originally posted by Fishermage

 

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Originally posted by miagisan
this argument is sooo 2006

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Not really. Not if you follow how it has changed the market, and how it has harmed every SOE game, and how it has started to change the way all MMO companies do business. It's part of tomorrow.

Time will be the only judge on this lets see if anything similar happens in say 10 years or so

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

 

Originally posted by fozzie22

But who in thier right minds would take on SOE and LA? no-one is that foolish surely?

The only reason I didn't give this more attention earlier, is that I was working with a colleague (lawyer for the federal gov't) and government policy makers to address gaps in legislation related to recidivism rates for dangerous offenders.  You can perhaps understand why this was a priority. 

 

With the recent passing of a significant bill in parliament, I find myself with time on my hands, and holidays upcoming.  How much of that I invest in exploring possible legislative gaps re. corporate exploitation of consumers of virtual entertainment remains to be seen.

You know what really got my attention, and kept it, was the absolute arrogance shown by SOE with regard to consumer protection legislation.  People don't spend years developing these laws just to have arrogant corporate money hounds show utter disdain for it.  The arrogance, blatant disinformation campaign, and utter disdain for customers honestly really pissed me off.

I agree with you 100%,but honestly all SOE would do is just tie anyone who tried to take them to court up for years on end with red tape,now if Bill Gates had played SWG then we may have had a chance..after all he's retiring now,got a few bob and a bit of time on his hands :)

Originally posted by xxUltimaxx

You CANNOT create a contract or agreement that allows you to commit an illegal act such as fraud. The only reason nobody has brought SOE to court is because of the amount of money gained would not even start to cover the lawyer fees or the time it would take to complete such a trial as SOE would bury anyone in paperwork. 

But SOE and LA dont see it as fraud (the NGE) i mean,they see it as "enhanced"..though i would like a pint of whatever they where drinking at the time they thought it made so "enhanced"

Originally posted by Dracis

 

Originally posted by fozzie22

And Dracis refering to your other post sadly it does cover the gameplay maay change issue..

 

Read the part in red.."we may enhance gameplay" pretty much cover the NGE..i.e new game enhancments,now given its a POS is another matter but hats off to SOE they covered tthier asses well with it tbh,mainly becuase the wording of tthe agreement is so vague they could aply it to anything

Once again, and please let this be for the last time, the statement, "Gameplay may change during online play", does not include the changes of the NGE, the part of the EULA I put in red does. There is a difference. The warning about gameplay changes online is basically stating that they can't control what other people do, say, or how they act online.

 

Please read the entire thread that I linked.

Edit* Just so you know, I'm not defending any game companies EULA. All of them are horribly against customers and I am very much in favor of some one eventually challenging them. What I'm against is the ignorance of the players who think that broad statements like, "Game play may change with online play" allow gaming companies to do whatever they want, whenever they want, because it simply is not true. I'm not trying to argue or flame, I'm trying to educate.

I mean "new game enhancements" was hardly catchy was it? so looking at it they covered themselves very nicely tbh.

But who in thier right minds would take on SOE and LA? no-one is that foolish surely?

And Dracis refering to your other post sadly it does cover the gameplay maay change issue..

Read the part in red.."we may enhance gameplay" pretty much cover the NGE..i.e new game enhancments,now given its a POS is another matter but hats off to SOE they covered tthier asses well with it tbh,mainly becuase the wording of tthe agreement is so vague they could aply it to anything

Thing is though as i understand PC software you never really own it do you? just a licence to play/use the software so if this is true they can and do pretty much anything they like to any piece of software.