All Posts by nethervoid

What you have basically just said is nobody ever play any MMOs.

Originally posted by dannis

 

Originally posted by Trinitarian

Thanks for posting this.

I hope weezer can come out with a couple of more journal entries before release, because this one was awesome, even if it was about the same old Tortage stuff we've read before.

The same old Tortage stuff is all we'eve ever read before! I don't recall hearing much about quests or where you go post-Tortage.

 

I mean I guess Funcom doesn't want to spoil it or break their own NDA...

It's a catch 22.  Don't release any info on the mid to end game, and people either think wow it must be as good as the newb area or older gamers who've been around for countless launches just think it must not exist yet.  lol

Isn't Silius the guy that was head of crafting in Beta?  lol  That guy was downright stupid.  All he did for crafting was make it a huge grindfest.  Hell even the items you grinded on couldn't be used in the market.  Part of the fun of crafting, and what other games haven't learned how to master either, is leveling your skill with the craft while making stuff you can actually use and sell.

Silius.  lol

All he had to do was make it take a lot longer to craft each item, while also upping the xp received from each item.  Then add in some kind of wear and tear on items and degradation of items so they would eventually break.  maybe they could have two users before they were utterly destroyed.  That would be enough.

Secondly, don't allow each character to level in all three spheres.  Duh.  Take what was learned in SWG.  One character per server.  One profession per character (give or take).  Brilliant.  Use what we have learned from previous games dude.  This is what helps makes certain the supply of items is kept more even.  Everyone shouldn't be a master crafter.  What the hell kind of sense does it make to have a master warrior, someone who's trained their whole lives to be good with weapons, also somehow find the time to be one of the best smiths in the land?  Uh....wtf?

Nah he didn't want to hear any of that nonsense, and neither did the weird people who actually like crafting grinds in games ala SWG grind fest.  Making a bazillion of an item and selling them to a vendor is boring.  Making a bazillion of an item that's totally useless in the game is even worse.  Not leaving the crafting room at all cause your quest giver, crafting materials (given to you by the quest giver LAWL), and crafting table are all in the same room...wow just stupid and not even close to realistic.  Does not make sense.

Crafting should be fairly realistic.  That's part of what makes it fun.

Silius has a horrible sense of what makes a great MMORPG.  ...  He is good at making robotic gameplay though.  His way of making sure the market wasn't flooded with crafted items was to make crafting boring to the point of tears, which only masochists would enjoy.  And since there are not many masochists in the world he figured this is a good bottleneck to introduce into the game.  LAWL  Make a game better by purposefully making the content less fun.  Brilliant.

Good luck, Vanguard.  =(

Are most people in this thread smoking something?  AC2 was a colossal failure.  How can you give a company props for it?  Secondly, DDO was released with far too little content...e.g. released early despite itself.  Props?  LOTRO has little content, and most of the people who've played or beta'd it said they got bored in 3 months.  Props?

Besides AC1, can Turbine call any of their games big hits?  Can any of them hold a match to the longevity of UO, EQ, and eventually WoW?

Realtiy Check:  Turbine is not a great game company people.  They had a fluke success with AC1, and have yet to live up to the former glory.

Next we'll be hearing how SOE has turned SWG around, and that they're a great game company.  lol  Or how Vanguard's uniqueness makes Sigil a great company.  C'mon people.

Originally posted by nomadian

 

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Also the taunt thing is just a lazy way around the use of ... not hit detection ... it's called something else in the industry, but basically the ability of the engine to know when two mobs (mobiles - yes players are mobiles too) come in contact with one another. I guess it's a real b*tch to code correctly. So anyway, in current pen and paper, the 'tanks' block a doorway to keep the mobs off the clothies, but even still you have to wonder why archers wouldn't just tear the casters a new one by firing over the tanks' heads.

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That would be an interesting step in mmos I reckon, but its got to have little quirks and nuances- like the tank gets hurt and withdraws back so the collision opens up type thing.

I like the DnD ruleset.  Pretty believable combat system, but don't get me started on AOO.  God I hate those.

Originally posted by Consensus

I really liked the concept and what i've heard of EvE. But i downloaded it on trial... instructions where really unclear UI was terrible. whole thing was just terrible, graphics controlls etc. seemed really dull ie. you click space ship to go kill this space ship and watch....

 

No doubt about it.  I would love to have more control over my ship.

"Again, without the out-of-game info. on the web, you'd eventually be lost in EVE.  If you disagree, fine, but your somekind 'Wunderkin' and should be forced into creating a cure for cancer by your government, not at home playing MMO's."

So any game where you use out of game info to be better than you could have been is hard?  I don't agree at all.  You definitely don't need the out of game info to be good enough in Eve to play to 'end game'.

I still don't understand how a bad UI makes a game hard to learn.  Yes it is hard to find the information you need to make decisions with, but that's it.  Finding agents in EVE is exactly like finding quest NPCs in WoW.  The information is there, but it's not obvious where it is.  Once you know where to find the information, you know everything you'll ever need to know.  In fact, in the lv 40+ zones in WoW you need either out of game info to find the quest givers (because they are no longer in town but spread all over the zone) or you need to run to every corner of the zone to find them.  Actually in that regard EVEs learning curve is lower because the information is there to be had, where as in WoW you have to visit every part of the zone to find all the quest givers.  Again bad UI requires the information be dug out.  That does not make it hard.

Think of how 'hard' WoW would be with EVEs UI and no customization available?  How many raiders do you know in wow who don't read up on builds and talents?  Can you honestly say all talents and trees in wow are monkey proof?  LOL  You should see the talent builds of most lv 70s.  They just suck, and yes they are pretty much unplayable if you actually have to depend on them.  A tank MUST have a proper build or he's going to wipe the party over and over.  In Eve, it's pretty much the same.  Sure you can fly a crap fitting and be a noob in a fleet because you are being held up by the people who actually put in effort to be good, but a tackler must understand how to fit his ship, and must know how to use his equipment...just like a tank!

Eve is not hard to learn, but yes there's a lot to learn.  EQs aggro and pull mechanics were a lot harder to learn than anything NPC based in EVE.  Nothing was spelled out in the UI at all.  It was all trial and error.  And yes there are 'max' level PvE people in EvE who don't know sh** from shinola.  You can get far and still be a total newb about fitting a ship.  Just buy a CNR and fit it with the biggest launchers you can.  There you have an end game character.

But that's not where Eve ends.  Yes it goes beyond the max level grind, and in that you must learn a lot of Eve which has almost nothing to do with mechanics, but everything to do with real life wartime:  politics, tactics, is it better to blob or have a handful of smaller gangs, supply line disruption, espionage, etc etc.  None of this is game mechanics.

I would say those who think Eve has a mind numbing learning curve must be below average.  Either that or I'm Einstein reborn.  It's just not that hard.  Yes it's not Diablo 2 (which by the way shares some of the same 'fitting analysis' as Eve ships with gear set ups and damage reduction caps etc), but you don't NEED spreadsheets and crap to play the game.

Bad UI plain and simple.  If the UI was better, this discussion wouldn't exist.  The only exception to this IMO is with market analysis, but again that's not a game mechanic, it's a real life mechanic.

Originally posted by mercader

EVE is complex, but I just started playing and learnt as I went, read the forums, got EVEmon and things became clearer for me.

The curve is harder than most, but tbh in WoW all I did was run to the man in the question mark over and over, and then kill mobs over and over. To say that game has a learning curve is untrue, which is why, in addition to being a solid game, and having fun aspects, it is one which appeals to a broad customer base.

I guess I don't think EVE has a steep learning curve, because the games I started out playing pre-WoW had much steeper learning curves than anything coming out now, especially WoW.  WoW has probably the flattest learning curve out of any MMO I've ever played.

EQ was harder to learn than EVE ever could be.  And again the only thing difficult with EVE is the lack of documentation.  Once you read about how something works, it's friggin easy.  Not so in other games.

So it's not that it's hard to get good at playing EVE, hence what would be a hard learning curve, all they need is a better interface and integrated documentation.

If WoW had a crappy UI and overly complicated systems with no documentation, would it have a steep learning curve?  Nah.  It would be pretty much the same game as it is now.  Doesn't take long to learn how to click something and press attack...oh wait that's EVE.

Lawl at this game.  I can't believe people still play it.  It's like some guy keeps hitting you in the face with a bat, and you just get up and ask for another.

Originally posted by wide52

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Well, you can't really blame them.

They made a bad product with tons of probblem. What do you expect them to do? Let all the complaints chase away the few unsuspected customers?

The game is probably doomed anyway with bad word-of-mouth and a exec producer going awok. However, getting one unsuspected customer going for another month is another $15 to cover their ungodly development cost.

This proves my point about people that play WOW ( check his post log) come over here  just to bash the game  and probably never played TR . if they had , they would have known that the servers are more full now then ever

I've never eaten feces, but I'm pretty sure it takes like crap.  When everyone bashes a game, usually it means the game sucks.  10 years of MMO experience at work right there.

Originally posted by Nomatica

Why do people keep bringing up vanguard? Vanguard failed for many other reasons. 1. Terrible preformance. I am hearing from people that age of conan will run like guildwars. Great graphics but easy on the computer. One thing AOC has that VG doesnt is server lines that will tremendously help preformance.

 

2. Funcom is a more experenced company in mmorpgs then the ones that made vanguard. Anarchy online was a pretty good mmo so im hoping to see that funcom took lessons on what they did wrong and right in their last mmo and do things better with AOC.

1.  Vanguard has server lines - You just can't see them

2.  The makers of Vanguard made EQ - Sounds like at least the same amount of experience or maybe more depending on how you look at it

The real problem with most of the failures since EQ is promising content the budget can't deliver.  If AoC has a problem it will most definitely be linked with this previous statement...and it's so common it's just not surprising at all anymore.  I actually expect it now.

Guilds will be setting 90 minute time frames that start at 3am server time.  This will eliminate most any other guild from attacking because the attackers will all be sleeping.  Then the same guild will get all butt hurt and blow up the forums when someone actually does hit them at 3am and they then log in to find a burning heap of rubble.  lol

This is one of the reasons I stopped reading up on new games before they are out of the NDA.  Too many times I've been let down.  Hell I even bought Horizons after reading what the 'features' were on the box.  lol

Best way to go about this industry is to be pessimistic about every game until it's actually released, else you will be let down time after time after time.  Out of every 10  MMOs that are released, one is half playable.  Out of ten half playable ones, 1 is actually worth pumping a couple of years into.

I don't think the learning curve is all that steep.  The real problem is the presentation of data in the UI.  If it had a skill planner built into it and maybe the EFT tool, the learning curve would actually flatten out quite a bit.  I mean seriously how hard is it to lock a roid and fire lazers, or lock and enemy and push f1-f8, or knowing how to put a blueprint and some mins in a factory and popping out items.

The actual things to do in the game are real easy to learn how to do.  The lack of easily accessable information on how they work is the hard part.

Yeah I actually hate how you can be clearing boss trash, and the boss is just standing there having a cup of tea: 'Oh look.  This new raid party is having a pretty easy time taking care of my guards.  *takes a sip*  Wow this earl grey is simply lovely!'  But at the same time if mobs had real intelligence, how would a raid party actually ever get to the boss?  It would have to be like 500 to 20 odds because the whole 'fortress' would attack at once, like old world castle warfare.  That would actually be pretty sweet, but very very hard to code with the time limitations of most teams.

Also the taunt thing is just a lazy way around the use of ... not hit detection ... it's called something else in the industry, but basically the ability of the engine to know when two mobs (mobiles - yes players are mobiles too) come in contact with one another.  I guess it's a real b*tch to code correctly.  So anyway, in current pen and paper, the 'tanks' block a doorway to keep the mobs off the clothies, but even still you have to wonder why archers wouldn't just tear the casters a new one by firing over the tanks' heads.

It would be sweet to see a new MMO tackle these two soft points in current MMOs.  PvE would be more about actual tactics in fighting instead of being ability based.  It would also mean monsters would be smart enough to use their whole force at once, and we would get some really cool actual 'battles' for raiding, while the group stuff would have to be against smaller groups of enemy or maybe like special ops hit and run tactics or whatever.

All of these reasons for why roleplay doesn't work in MMOs are the reason it did (and still kinda does except the engine is pretty old) work in NWN player run servers, because the server creators created the backdrop world and the history with ruins etc, and then they would run some of the antagonist gods etc, but most of the good vs evil was run by players, through guilds, housing, storylines (which were fueled both by DMs and player actions) and other etc etc etc.  It is just way way way better than table top because instead of just 6 or so 'people' in the world to interact with, you've got like hundreds who 'live' there and who you converse with.  The plots were that much deeper and intertwined with each other.  It was like 200 people playing table top in the same 'world'.  It was friggin awesome.  I would love to have a chance to start a new experience like that again.  I can't even go back to table top because not having that computer engine adds so much overhead to the game.  I spent more time with the damn rules than I did playing the game.

Sorry for the unparagraphed blob.  I'm at work, and time is precious.

Originally posted by CaesarsGhost

 

Originally posted by darquenblade

 

Originally posted by CaesarsGhost

I recently have lost the last bit of respect for BioWare, but I'm glad you guys are keeping at it.

 

Their first respect lost was when they stopped making their own technology and leased other's to be "quicker to market".

The final straw was the phrase "Without Gygax, there would still be a BioWare."  Pompus remark for a company who made all their money on games based on DnD originally...

You show me one goddamn quote where BioWare said that.

 

And as far as I'm concerned, your opinion on whether middleware is good/bad for a company is completely irrelevant. Come back when you have some credentials other than MMOCenter and The Chronicle.

It was on IGN when a whole bunch of them were saying Goodbye.  He said there'd be a BioWare, but no NWN or BG.  Your language is quite unappreciated.

 

It's merely my opinion, I'm entitled to it as much as you're entitled to yours.  I'm not against Middleware as much as I'm for owning everything myself.  However, since I've been around to several MMO companies, I can honestly say the sad state of people not hiring the correct Programmers to make that all important Master Server is quite perturbing.

And for the record: I've worked at several companies doing design now, you'll probably play a MMO I worked on and not even know it to be honest.

I wasn't aware I needed excessive Industry experience to offer an opinion on a particular style of  development... What are your Credentials?

Bioware rocks for the simple fact that is NWN and it's ability to be totally customized to a player run digital version of the pen and paper game.  One of my best gaming experiences of my ten years in MMO gaming is from NWN Avlis: player run DnD server.

Too bad NWN 2 wasn't a Bioware product.

The only way to breathe life back into that game would be to get rid of Trammel.

I played horizons for a week when it first hit gold.  Maybe two weeks.  Even back then it couldn't hold up against the competition.  It was one of the first MMOs to horribly undeliver on promises.  Shadowbane was sort of an underperformer, and it got a lot of flack for it back then, but Shadowbane was a shining bar of gold compared to the way Horizons was released.  Every system in the game was horribly unfinished, right down to the empty world.

To bad though cause back then I was really looking forward to the sub-component style crafting system promised on the box.  You know.  Pommel, hilt, blade, tassle, runes on hilt.  All those and more were supposed to go into the creation of a sword.

Oh well.

Ghost camped (Unrest)