All Posts by nethervoid

I want a game where I hit a button and I'm max level.

I want a game that doesn't have any 12 year olds.

Notice the oxymoron.

Originally posted by Zsari

 

Originally posted by Perception

Anything else I should keep in mind?

EDIT:  I forgot to mention one *very* important thing.   I tend to be labeled "troll", "jerk", "ahole" etc in MMO's.  I use... colorful... language.  I enjoy griefing.  I do my best to push others players buttons in chat.  Now, this being said, can anyone tell me a bit about the GM Staff of Vanguard?  To put things in perspective, I've been banned twice from Eve for foul language (hence why I'm looking for a new game).  Will I get reported and banned for saying bad words, or do players utilize the (hopefully implemented) word filter and ignore functions?  Are the GM's egomaniacs? 

 

Errr... Try Serdon Server, and avoid Xeth plz.

Actually he'd probably enjoy Sartok for the pvp griefing aspect.

What does RMT stand for?

Originally posted by Pappy13

Originally posted by nethervoid

 

Originally posted by Pappy13

So in my opinion it's not the game itself that determines the relative ease of grouping up, but rather the groups themself.  Generally speaking, PUG's are not fun.  They weren't fun in CoX and they are not fun in WoW.  However if you find a group of people that you enjoy grouping up with in either game it is quite enjoyeable in either game.  The game mechanics of grouping up are not the deciding factor.  I have no idea what psychological or pedagogical group problems CoX has remedied with it's game design.  That is a new one on me.

Did you ever play EQ1?  Especially so if you played at release.  Almost every group was a pug, and it was a blast.

 

Mechanics are the overall driver when determining if a game will have good pugs.  A game will have bad pugs if you have the following:

- Fast leveling (people don't figure out their character while leveling)

- Lots of solo content, and on par with group content (people haven't much reason to group, therefore do not figure out how to run their character in a group environment)

- Light death penalty (people are not forced to increase their skill playing their character, then when entering the understandably harder group content, they die over and over and can't figure out why)

- Much more solo quest content than group quest (game not focusing enough on group play, therefore players generally have less experience in a group environment)

Lastly, but really nothing to do with what I just said, if you're doing level appropriate content in wow with level appropriate gear, no way you can survive without a tank in a group.  Someone has to soak the damage.  Most of those dungeons cannot be kite-tanked.  In the extreme case, I'd like to see someone in pre-raid, pre-badge gear go through heroic underbog without a tank.  lol  That would make a great you tube.

No, I have not played EQ.  Have you ever been in a guild in WoW?  Fantastic grouping.  It's amazing how the people in a guild can suddenly be great group members when the game itself actually "teaches" you not to be.  Huh.  I don't understand it. (that was sarcasm in case you missed it.)

Most of WoW's pug problem can be attributed to the four reasons I stated in my post.  We didn't have any problems in EQ, and we also didn't have these four issues I stated here.  Nobody would say there was NEVER an issue with someone who didn't know their role in an EQ group or who got everyone killed all the time from being newbish in the area, but it was very rare.  Far more common was the person who was just new to the zone, but most times they were a good player and skilled with their class from previous grouping experiences.

In EQ, you first start grouping around lv 10, and I would say at least half of the time from 10 to 20 you're grouped.  Beyond 20, unless you're really TRYING to solo, you're grouped.

Originally posted by Pappy13

So in my opinion it's not the game itself that determines the relative ease of grouping up, but rather the groups themself.  Generally speaking, PUG's are not fun.  They weren't fun in CoX and they are not fun in WoW.  However if you find a group of people that you enjoy grouping up with in either game it is quite enjoyeable in either game.  The game mechanics of grouping up are not the deciding factor.  I have no idea what psychological or pedagogical group problems CoX has remedied with it's game design.  That is a new one on me.

Did you ever play EQ1?  Especially so if you played at release.  Almost every group was a pug, and it was a blast.

Mechanics are the overall driver when determining if a game will have good pugs.  A game will have bad pugs if you have the following:

- Fast leveling (people don't figure out their character while leveling)

- Lots of solo content, and on par with group content (people haven't much reason to group, therefore do not figure out how to run their character in a group environment)

- Light death penalty (people are not forced to increase their skill playing their character, then when entering the understandably harder group content, they die over and over and can't figure out why)

- Much more solo quest content than group quest (game not focusing enough on group play, therefore players generally have less experience in a group environment)

Lastly, but really nothing to do with what I just said, if you're doing level appropriate content in wow with level appropriate gear, no way you can survive without a tank in a group.  Someone has to soak the damage.  Most of those dungeons cannot be kite-tanked.  In the extreme case, I'd like to see someone in pre-raid, pre-badge gear go through heroic underbog without a tank.  lol  That would make a great you tube.

My god metaplace looks friggin awesome.  I just hope they provide a lot of tools, especially in the art department.  I've loved modding stuff like Morrowind and NWN, but the problem has always been art.

I can easily see me and a handful of my tech geek friends creating a world.  Man, that would be f'in great!  Deving a game could easily replace my playing of games.  I love it that much.

Awesome accomplishment.  To be honest, though, after WoW I've decided not to install stuff like this.  Takes all the fun out of finding stuff.  It's really nice not to have dungeon maps and all that at my fingertips.  If it were up to me, I would remove most of the official UI pointers that point you strait to the quest mobs and stuff, but I guess that period of MMO exploration is more old school.

I'm really trying (and doing a good job of it) NOT to use any spoilers, quest walkthroughs, out of game maps, etc.  Hell I'm even avoiding looking at screenshots so I don't blow the suspense and that feeling you get from not knowing what's there.  =D  Kind of like not reading the last chapter in the book while you're only half way through it.

I still have really fond memories of everquest zones, where I had to memorize a safe path through each new zone I encountered.  lol  And not knowing where stuff was.  You had to ask in the zone, ask a friend, or just look through trial and error.  It was pretty awesome.  My most memorable moment ever in that game was trying to run from Felwithe to Kelethin.  I had no idea the path branched and some branches were dead ends.  lol  I got lost in GFay at that point, and didn't know about the walls of the zone yet.  I really was lost in the woods and orcs were pathing everywhere!  That was a really epic feeling.  But it would have never happened if we had a good in game map.

I actually would think it pretty cool if there was no in game maps at all in VG.  lol  You could actually get lost there!  hehe

Originally posted by Torak

When you get ingame guys do this

/setfog 200000, 400000, 120, 120, 240

If you like it, make a macro as it resets each time you log.

It completely changes how the game looks with no real performance hit (even on my older P4, 8500 gfx card PC)

What it is doing is starting the fog at 2km and making it full fog at 4km (which you currently have it under 1km unless you change it each time you log in) then adjusting the colors a bit. You can play with it if you don't like those distances. Don't do that /setfog 999999 because all that does is wipe out all the fog and it looks to unrealistic then.

Looks great as it eliminates that hazy washed out look. Also set your clipping plane to about 4 or 5km (500000) depending on what you run the game, it sets it really low by default sometimes. (about 1km or so)

Now compare it to LotR or AoC.

Totally agree with this.  Basically getting rid of the fog makes it too unrealistic.  Thanks for exploring the command fully.  It will be nice to just push it back a bit, layer by layer like that.

I actually like the pvp aspect of eve, but I need something else to do besides just pvp, so I couldn't keep playing the game.  But I'll always agree Eve is a great game.

Every class can solo.  Play whatever you like to play.

*edited from 'Pretty much' to 'Every' - It's true*

Originally posted by tirallum

you're so wrong...

This post is packed with reasoning.

Originally posted by Barbit

"If the game is fun, it doesn't matter what platform it's played on."

 

I concur

Forget the PC v Console thing its stupid if its fun its good imo no matter what its played on ps3, pc, or a board game on the floor.

Heroin is fun.

Originally posted by Umbrood

 

people tend to be smarter, but not wiser, smart is one thing and so is a huge IQ but if you have no inherent knowledge to make anything with that brains you are nothing more then a moron.

 

It's not enough to say 'I don't like this thing'.  If you haven't looked at WHY it's there, you shouldn't be judging it's validity.  First think about WHY something is in game, and then you will see why it makes the game better or worse.  Most of the stuff in original EQ that people say they hated are actually the biggest things that made the game great:  harsh death, travel, forced grouping, and down time.  These are all what made the game so memorable.

For the record, the paragraph system on this board is fubar.

Originally posted by Sovrath

Yes of course they are valid. People want to play games and achieve things without actually spending hours doing it because it's a video game and not a way of life. If you choose to make it your way of life then that's your business but it seems that there are many who dont'.

As far as the 30 minutes per night quip, I think you are a bit out of touch with how some people actually live. Sure, they do spend 2 hours watching a ball game or doing something else. However, that's because that activity is, to them, worth so much more than a video game. I realize you are having a hard time coming to grips with that but there is a lot more out there than just video games.

You again prove my point perfectly.  Thanks.

I'm a family guy too.  I have kids.  A career.  Also I'm going to night school.  Games are not my way of life; they're my hobby.

Your friend spends 2 hours watching a game, as his hobby; therefore, you just proved my point that the 30 minutes is a choice and is not related at all to a persons life.  My son and I play video games together as a hobby just as people watch sports games with their kids, so again thanks for proving my point.

So it still stands, gamers want things that are bad for the industry.  And once again I feel it's a moot point to delve deeply into the 'why's' about this, because some people just refuse to see all sides, as I have done here.

Maybe the real problem is there are too many console people trying to make the MMO industry more like the console industry.  Why?  Just go play a console instead.  Even consoles nowdays are multiplayer.

Lastly, I wish I had the numbers to prove it (although still people would disagree, because they don't care what the answer is, they just see what they want to see), but the number of people who play so little they can't complete content in MMOs even back in EQ days is just rediculously small.  Every point anyone can make as to why you would make stuff take 30 minutes a pop is easily debased by actually thinking logically about game design etc, which I really just don't have the time to explain but not just for the lack of time but the lack of belief people would actually accept the answer given, because they see things how they want to see them.  Most people do this, so it's not really a surprise.

Right off the bat people will say 'You're doing the same thing as well here - not seeing the points', but that's not true.  I've seen the points,and debased them (for the most part - longer explainations can be done by someone less burned out on explaining things than I am).

I sound elitist?  Yeah I do.  Because I am.  I understand that the richness of the industry is not captured in 30 minute, every other week intervals, and so I don't feel any value in bending the industry to meet my ADD disorder.  Bending the industry to self-serving 30 minute intervals is destroying it.  I wish more people would have enough logical brain power to see that, or at the very least be able to contemplate things after another person has explained them.  Although I'm not shocked that many people still can't see the big picture.  It's a degradation of modern society we have to live with every day.  ME ME ME RIGHT NOW has taken over, and there's no going back.

</soapbox>

Originally posted by Sovrath

 

Originally posted by LiquidWolf

 

Oh I understand, but the problem is many people are beginning to notice that market is no longer around and that nothing is around the facilitate that desire anymore.

 

The climbing spots have been roped off and signs have been posted saying: No admittance. Danger!

Bars have been put in place around the scenic sight to prevent people from falling off, and an elevator is being installed for those that are afraid to fly or take the chair lift.

 

I think the market isn't around anymore because the population who wants such games is too small to support it. Oh sure, they were sufficient when there were a handful of games out there. But how many games can the market bear when they only have a small amount of the original people to play them.

Not many.

So what does a game company do? Do they just say, "oh well, let's just develop software for word processing instead"? No, they say, "well, what about the people who want to play games but don't want to spend hours per day"? "maybe we can develope a game like that".

And then they do and they are wildly successful and  then some of the "hardcore" players realize that they can no longer play hours per day because "guess what" they actually have grown up and have families and jobs with more work and they develop other interests, etc. So they go to the casual games as well.

Now you have even fewer "hardcore" players to support them.

This is called getting the prize without putting in the effort.  Just like if you buy a 16 year old their first car, they don't appreciate it for what it is.  They take it for granted and don't relish it.  If you make them buy their first car, you get a whole different reaction.

I think you're proving my point well.  The industry is now glut with people not willing to work for anything.  Instant gratification is boring.  People know this even though they don't 'get it'.  Look at AoC.  Easiest leveling there is, and people thought they would love that....yet they hate it.  They don't know that what they think they want actually makes a crap game.  Just like when you use cheat codes to play a game.  When you take all the challenge out, the game gets boring very fast.

Also about the 30 minutes a night thing, I call bullshit on that.  How many people in this country watch a 2 hour football game 3 days a week?  You don't call them hardcore.  Following any other sport or having any other hobby very easily takes up just as much time.  Hell watching TV takes up more of America's time than any video game.

Lastly, I would say even in today's 'casual' industry, the number of gamers who play MMOs 30 minutes a night once a week or every other week is very very low.  Even in WoW you wouldn't get far playing for 30 minutes.

So you see, those arguments are just not valid.  People want things that are not good for them, but they don't have the insight or logical processing ability to see it.

Lastly, the current trend in MMO design makes me acutally think the MMO industry is being cannabalized by the single player/console industry where, as you mentioned, people don't have the patience for challenge and death penalties.  I think this is mainly because in single player and consoles death penalties have little to no value at all, because there's nobody else playing besides yourself, so not much reason to have a death penalty in the first place.  Single player/console games are definitely just the 'whimsicle' gaming experience, but I think it's bleeding profusely over to the MMO industry, probably thanks in most part by WoW (which was really just bringing all the D2 people over from single player to MMOs).

Yes there are more console type gamers out there, hence the MMO industry is just going to get beat around and gobbled up by them to the point eventually we won't have any real MMOs left.  Everything will be single serving, just like consoles.

I got off the topic a bit there...gah.

Originally posted by Sovrath

Harsher death penalties
only good to the point where the player realizes he/she doesn't have the time to make up for the death pentalites... time to do something else

Reduced ease of travel
Agreed as there is land to be experienced. However if a player has to constantly travel for 30+ minutes and he/she doesn't have the time... well, see #1

When you lower the common denominator, you lower the fun, IMO.  Harsh death penalty just means I need to get some skill under my belt and not run around with no patience.  Harsh death penalty makes everyone a better player.

Same thing really for online FPS like CoD4.  Sure when I'm a noob I get rocked by the better players, but playing against very skilled people makes me much stronger as well.  If you play vs weak people all the time, your skill will cap much lower than if you played with awesome people all the time.

Real life experience here.  I used to play Magic the card game exclusively with people from UC Davis.  I won some.  I lost some.  Always people were thinking of new card combos etc.  Then I went to play in this hick town Woodland, and I couldn't find a single person who could give me a run for my money, because the skill pool there was horrible.  Most people were like 'wow I never thought to try that'.  After a few weeks of playing there, everyone had MUCH better decks, by playing me.

So death penalty is more about advancing the skills of the player, and at the same time really helps with the whole excitement of the danger!  =)

Originally posted by LiquidWolf

Now, I personally believe that it isn't they are getting dumber, (since IQ test scores keep rising) but that they are not required to KNOW information anymore, just know where to FIND it. This still doesn't change that a repercussion of this is that people want instant gratification NOW, and don't want to wait for it. You can find some studies on that too... (people who delay gratification typically wind up being managers and "higher" up in society) Todays market consists predominantly of people who are unable or unwillilng to delay gratification and want things easy.

There's a big difference between knowing WHY something is the way it is, and just knowing the answer.

Originally posted by karat76

I agree with most of what you say except for the issue of no pvp protected areas. I personally am not a big fan of pvp and don't think it should be forced on anyone. To me DAoC had the best  method of dealing with this.

I can see this point very well.  In UO I was not a fan of pvp, but the big difference was I had a REALLY good chance of escape if I was prepared (oh crap recall rune).  That's what made it work IMO.  In that kind of environment, even things like mining can be fun due to the added adrenaline rush of fight or flight.  lol

Originally posted by Vendayn

I myself prefer soloing, BUT I do like grouping too...and I have a really really fun time healing in a group. But I don't always have time (more often then not) to find a group.

I agree with this, although I like to group more.  The only thing I find frustrating about grouping is more in how long it takes to find a group.  Of course you can directly affect this problem by making soloing a harder/less rewarding option.  lol

EQ1 and EQ2 are all I can come up with.