Seems like a rather naive post.  In my experience, these little arguments between RP people and the trolls that like to torment them occur in the beginning areas or the capital areas where people tend to congregate.  But hey, those are where all the evils of gaming seem to occur.  Gold spammers . . . beggars . . . blanket spammed guild invitiations . . . scams . . . it all takes place in the cities.  Just like in the old days when the rural preachers of America used to talk about the sins of the city.  It's just like saying that anybody that goes to the capital areas or crafting areas or auction areas, etc, likes to be the victim of gold spammers, beggars, scams, etc.

As for this idea that nobody really roleplays, well sheesh, I think that everybody does in fact roleplay.  Afterall, only in a roleplaying game would you seriously care whether you had the Hammer of All-Power or not.  In real life I don't run around in armor or a sword.   And as for talking funny, well, who needs to talk funny to roleplay.  In the Middle Ages, everybody in the same region tlaked the same and nobody sounded like they had an accent unless they were from a few valleys over.  So if nobody uses an "accent" when they roleplay, that's fine.  That just simulates that nobody would hear an accent anyway.

Leet talk is just another form of Thieve's Cant or the slang of youth gangs.  In Rome there was there was slang amongst mercenaries, teens, etc.  And no doubt, the language grated on the ears of the elder and the more refined.  Well, hearing leet speak just lends to my roleplaying experience.

The only thing that really hurts the experience is when people talking about stuff totally unrelated to the game, but then again . . . haven't people always talked about family life, whatever sporting events they were interested in (bar fights or the latest gladiatorial results), and the more mundane occurances of life throughout history?  So, hey, I can incorporate that into the roleplaying experience too.

So people can talk about all these different things and use leet speak and all that and STILL be roleplayers because even though all these real life discussions can be brought intot he illusion of roleplay, the fact that they are pretending to play with swords or using magic just doesn't transfer intot he real world.  In the real world, we just don't run around with swords, fight dragons, etc.  We don't care about obtaining ancient artifacts because of the power they will give us.  We are not adventurers and warriors and mages.  So we are all roleplaying.

Seems to me neither has failed just yet, though the release of AoC was messy.  I was there for that and very disappointed.   The bait and switch involved with fantastic Tortage and then very very poor content after that was just sad.   Warhammer did a lot better in that respect.

By the by, standing still doesn't work so well in Warhammer what with all the positional attacks . . .  Plus LoS rules and such often reward movement in rvr.  I like the music and the graphics just fine, but do wish they had a few more emotes in Warhammer.  That said, they do have some anyway. 

As far as I can tell, the Slayer was never cut.  They had in fact assured people that the Slayer would not be part of the game because of the Warhammer RPG  developers wouldn't agree to it, but that changed.  

I'm thinking about revisiting AoC.  There was a lot to like about it, though I find it funny how you couldn't be very Conanish in the game.  Like Conan would give away gems he had cut out of Alligators to some merchant for a few measely gold . . .

Hopefully both games will continue to get better.   Warhammer has been fun as far as I'm concerned, and as long as they have one good server, I'm happy :)

All the games start out like that.  It will no doubt calm down in a month or two. 

Originally posted by oren_k

You can. In the ZEngine software there is ability to create what they call 'Layers'. You set up the layers with mapping as you wish and assign a key that toggle between your mapping layers.

This is what you asked for, right?

That's a big part of what I was looking for.  It makes the whole setup much more attractive to me, though there were some other things in my post that I was also looking for (like an ergonomic gaming keyboard).  Thanks a bunch for your answer though.  A big help.

Is there a state mode that will change all the keys to a different set up on the fly?  The packaging never made this clear to me.   My first experience with a left-handed game keypad type controller was the Strategic Commander by microsoft a while back.  It tried to be a bit more than just a keypad, and was kind of clunky, but it had these keys that  you could hit during a game that would shift the entire keymapping of the device on the fly.  It was a good feature that multiplied the number of keys that could be mapped.  I didn't see that in this product, so essentially, it looked like just a reorganization of a few keys on the keyboard.

What stopped me from buying this little extra bit of equipment was a careful examination of the layout of the keys.  I think I still have access to more keys with my left-hand on a normal keyboard than I do with this contraption (or its counterpart the Fang).  I can hit F1-F5 without even thinking about it on my keyboard comparing with 7-11 on the Stealth.  1-6 are pretty much the same except I have to reach further to get to them because on the Ideazon version because the WASD keys are so much larger.  Also I can use the tilda key.  On my keyboard, I can easily hit r-f-v-t-g-b to the right of WASD, I can hit z-x-c-v, I can hit control or alt (never use that windows start key, and on the left I can hit tab and shift. 

On most games when I hit tab or shift I can hit a whole different set of keys for all the ones I named above (for example control r, alt r, or shift r).   On most games (but not all), all that means a whole new set of assignments are possible.  Furthermore, a game like EVE allows combos like control-shift-r, control-alt-r, and shift-alt-r.  Some of those combos are impossible for certain keys (control-alt-v doesn't work so well for me), but still, there are yet more keymapping possibilities.  Some games I can play entirely with my left hand on my existing keyboard.

Finally, I'm using a Microsoft Natural Elite because I don't get pain in my wrists when I use it.  There isn't a gaming keyboard yet that is made with that kind of ergonomic curvature sadly.  Between aching wrists and a keyboard that looks cool but doesn't give all that much apparent advantage, I will do without the pain.

What I would like personally is a keyboard with the curvature of the Microsoft Natural Elite with a mode change button that is easily accessible on my mouse to switch between a "control" state, a "shift" state, and an "alt" state and combos of those three.  Then I could just hit the little button and poof, I would have a whole new set of "control" keys or whatever with just the press of a button.

My wish is for something like this Stealth with an ergonomic keyboard and a mode or shift/alt/control shifting function built into it somehow or mappable to a mouse button.  That would make me very happy.  Does such a thing exist?

Edit:  On little thing that is kind of nice that nobody I saw mentioned was the 2 usb ports on the keyboard.  That seems convenient to me though I know it is offered by other keyboards as well.

If they can deliver on what they promise, I will play it.  If not, I won't.  Very simple.  What else is there to discuss?

Funny thing is, when playing just about any game there is out there, you can at almost any time stop and ask yourself, "What the hell am I doing spending my time doing this for?"

Nice thing about guildwars is you can "quit" and come back and everything you had is still there . . . at least for now.  It's the beauty of buying the game and then no monthly fees.  I've lost interest a few times and come back.  No big deal . . .

I don't even feel like I get behind too much simply because you are right.  There's not a heck of a big difference between any level 20 character after the first week or two.  I think that's the beauty of it.  I can just come back and jump right in.  Nice.

If you haven't quit guildwars once, you should go ahead and quit for a short while.  Then come back and you will see one big thing that sets this game apart. 

In reference to the post imediately before this one, that system you propose sounds like how most systems end up once you reach the top level in most of these games out there.  For instance, in WoW at level 60, you gear differentiates you from others.  In DAOC, if you are a veteran of RvR, you are going to have some moves that other players don't have.

Furthermore, once you have pretty much maxed your level, everybody has pretty much the same hp, excepting special bonuses, skills, etc.  It's hard to say what hit points really ARE anyway.  Maybe they more reflect your skills at avoiding death until you get too tired, too careless, and that kid with the machine gun finally hits you in the stomach whereas before you were getting away.  Perhaps, the difference in hit points between a kid and you reflects the fact that you might survive an encounter with a 12-year old trying to fire a maching gun at you than if the roles are reversed.  In other words, he wouldn't know how to avoid getting killed as easily as you would.  If it is merely wounding, then it seems like your abilities should drop with your hit points, but I don't see many games where that is the case.  You are fine until you die.

I would say that EVE comes close to what you are talking about.  You have to have your character learn the proper use of various kinds of technology while good gear gives a decent advantage.  You don't have levels, and you are as mortal as the next guy (meaning you have a clone stored away somewhere).  If you blow up, you blow up.  Friends can give you stuff to help you out early on.  You just have to learn how to use it well.  It's a space game, of course.  Perhaps you are thinking more in line with your fantasy type games.  I think more of your skills based games are more what you are talking about.

For example, Ultima Online allowed you to wear anything anybody gave you but you had to practice skills to get good at using that equipment.   People had pretty much the same hit points as I recall.

Another example might be Planetside.  You can get the exact same equipment, but again, you gradually learn skills over time.

Ooops  Double post.  Sorry.

I like variety, and really, that's what we see in games today.  There should DEFINATELY be games where pvp has consequences, permadeath is a possibility, etc.  If you don't like that possibility at all, then don't play the game.  Simple.  Play one of the others out there.

In all "debates" like this, there seems to be a tendancy to assume that there is some "best" situation out there.  Not so. 

EVE seems to be the best example of pvp without restrictions (except in empire zones).  For a while, I liked DAOC, but for me, I need a little bit more purpose in battle.  Day to day, aside from large raids, there didn't seem to be a purpose other than gaining realm points.  It was fun when it had scale, but otherwise, it just wasn't that entertaining to me (and then there was all the cheating).

Somebody suggested that everybody should go out with the same equipment and basic abilities and there should be no death consequences.  Well, that sounds to me like Guildwars.   Arena and tournament combat is just like that.

In fact, almost every suggestion exists except . . . there's no decent permadeath game out there that I know about. 

For me, PvP imotivates most of my PvE activity.  I may play for months at PvE just to gain advantages in PvP (like in DAOC).   Otherwise, gaining levels, getting stuff, etc. just seems pointless other than to "look cool."  That's the big problem for me in WoW.  It's mostly just about obtaining things.  They haven't implemented BGs in a meaningful enough way.

For me, most important in PvP is purpose.  No rules universes can provide purpose like EVE, but so can battlegrounds, etc.  It just has to be done well.  If DAOC had special crafting components that had to be farmed inside little dungeons unique to each keep, the battles would have a LOT more meaning for me!  People fight over resources in the real world!  So we should do in games if we want meaning.

This game has so much life left in it, it is simply amazing.  They have plans to build and build and build on it.  They will break the top 500 corporations in the world for the sophistication of their server cluster (only one "server world") they are now installing for their cluster.  No other gaming system comes anywhere near the top 500 corporations.  This is top of the line equipment they are investing in and they just now made the purchase. 

Future expansions they talk about include expansions involving new forms of warfare, a merging of the new Far East server they will be opening after a couple of years of time for it to develope, planetside warfare and development, etc.  The list of possibilities that have been talked about goes on and on and on, and it appears that they are really serious about doing it all!

Truly, the game seems like it is going places.  Players HERE ranked it as having one the best graphics of any MMORPG, and they haven't updated their engines yet to make improvements.  They haven't had too.  When they need to, will they do it?  Sure looks like it.

The developers truly seem committed.  One of the main owners/developers is a mathematician.  His interest goes beyond just "making a game."  The depth you see in the economy, in some of the physics (where it doesn't inteferfere with play or performance) is all reflected in this rather interesting background for a primary developer of a MMORPG.  A solid basis and interest in depth seems to drive futher innovations in the game.  I just can't say enough about how impressed I am in the kind of commitment and motiviations for that commitment that I see in this game. 

All the developers seem to get something special out of this game, and that means it has a special hold on them that is going to keep them interested and around for a long time.  Not to mention the money.  They stated outright at their last gaming conference in Iceland that they are extremely profitable at the moment with well over a million in profits per month.  You can see the exact amount in the last issue of EVE, the magazine they publish (very high quality I must add!). 

The game is unique and there's a lot to be said for it now and even more to be said about its long-term prospects.

Crafting is just another element of a game that has to be balanced.  For a lot of people, crafting is a way to stay involved with a game wthout having to play marathon sessions to feel a part of the community.  For instance, in WoW, I can't spend 10 hours straight on some marathon monster raid.  Simply impossible if you don't have that kind of time.  But I can hop on, craft a little, hop off, and over time, I can feel like I'm a useful part of the world.

Most of the problems I see here have to do more with a misunderstanding of how game economies really work.  You are in a competition for the best stuff no matter what system you have--crafting or noncrafting.  You compete with tons of other players, and if you can't easily obtain something on its own, you are going to have to pay through the nose to get it if it is difficult to find.  Period.

Crafters charge a lot on stuff that is difficult to craft.  If it takes 10 hours to make, then yeah, you are going to have to pay a lot to get it.  But WHY?  Because other dudes out there willing to spend 10 hours to hunt for enough gold to pay for it are going to pay more than you are willing to pay.  If the item isn't so valuable and cool, then nobody is going to hunt 10 hours to get the gold to buy it.  Either that or maybe they are just better gamers than you and came make that gold more quickly.

Very rarely do we see games where crafters magically create their own gold.  They almost always rely on hunters to bring it in.  So for every so-called inflate price, you have behind it several more efficient or players with more time than you that are paying for those prices for those items.

What it comes down to is that you know that there are some really cool items out there, and you have to work really hard to get them and keep them.  It's just like in the real world.  To get the good stuff you gotta outhustle and outproduce the next guy, get ahead and stay ahead.  Rome wasn't built in a day, most people have to borrow for 30 years to buy a house and still have to scrape just to make the downpayment, and yeah, in virtual games you gotta work for things that other people want.

Should it come as any surprise that even in a "virtual" world that has real people expending their very real time on very real goals  in their very real minds, that we see some real life facts enter into the "game."  Crafting is just one thing that players can use to get some of those things.

I've played three wide open games without instancing.  Dark Ages of Camelot before the addon after Trials of Atlantis, Ultima Online, EVE (well it has what seem to be small instances and not these huge massive isntances).  I've played some games with instancing: Guild Wars, World of Warcraft, the beta for AD&D.  I've dabbled in numerous other games.

Early on, when things are easy, yes, it is easy to get a group in any of these games period unless the game has aged and there just aren't a lot of beginning players left around to play.  Instancing or not, it really doesn't matter.

And in all these games, big guilds (corps in EVE) tend to dominate the action and there members get experiences that other people have a hard time achieving.

The problem with instancing, especially with high end content for all MMORPGs, is that it is incredibly time consuming.  It is a lot easier to jump in and join a raid in DAOC when you just have to catch up to the raid rather than be there for the beginning.  You can finish part of a Trial, for instance, one day and catch up to finish it later.  You can often catch up to the crowd in the epic dungons.  In EVE, you can jump in and help out in an alliance war or whatnot as soon as you log on.  Ultima Online was always available to play right away.

The instance intensive games, however, all have aspects that are exceedingly difficult to finish in one sitting without a very large time commitment and it is IMPOSSIBLE to catch up with your friends.  WoW requires HUGE blocks of time to get through some of the dungeons.  To go through the non-storyline dungeons in Guildwars (the Rift and the others) you have to be there for hours as well.  I fear that the higher level AD&D content will be the same.

A poster before me talked about one of my biggest problems with the instanced world; however, he got it all wrong.  He talked about persistence.  Well, we want our characters to last from session to session, which all games have, but he talked as though a wide open world never changed from session to session as opposed to an instanced world.  I must agree that the world is VERY persistent in an instanced world.  The result is quite the opposite of what the poster meant however.  In fact, those instances will be there forever and nothing will ever change.  You will have absolutely no impact on the world.  The guy that comes along later will face the same old instances of challenge.  Very persistent.  Rock solid persistent in every aspect.

The more instanced intensive the game, the more that the exact same circumstances will play out over and over again.  In Guildwars, people sell their services because they have "cracked" a particular instance.  The same strategy is used over and over and over, because the same exact encounters are played out over and over again.  Too persistent if you ask me.

I like a world that changes.  My achievements might stay with me in the form of experience or abilities or items, but to have any impact on the world, something has to change.  NOTHING that we do in WoW changes anything at all.  In DAOC, PvP has an impact on everybody.  Territory changes hands (they merely need to make it more so in that resources are important and change hands too).   In EVE, autonomy over systems goes back and forth, invasions of whole sections of space occurs, markets can be disrupted.  Ultima Online . . . well, I don't know about how things are now, they moved toward the dynamic spawn but still, rather persistent.  Instancing is only one way of making a world unchangeable.

The only way I would much care for isntancing is if somebody were changing the instances along the way based on what I did in the others.  Again, though, that's kind of an individual experience

In the end, the thing about instancing is that there's nothing in it that appeals to or requires a realmwide, nationwide, alliancewide effort.  It's all about your guild or your group and nothing about it pulls you outside that group.  You can leave it if you want, but nothing tugs you to do so.

This problem can happen with or without instancing, but I think that the best games pull you outside your little group in a game to interact meaningfully IN THE GAME with the community at large.  That's why games like DAOC or EVE to me are much more engaging and immersive.  They aren't perfect.

In the end, there's not much atmosphere in a game that you can't touch or change in some meaningful way.  To find out that so and so is fighting the same fight you just finished is NEVER immersive whether it is a spawn or an instance. 

In an all isntanced world, as soon as you are in a group where somebody is telling you (ordering you) to do this or that because they have done it before, it loses all of its immersiveness for me.  In fact, to go through an instanced game I would prefer to be in one group that goes through the whole game all by itself, joining with other virgin groups when necessary to get over larger challenges.  And to do that, you have to ignore the community completely.  (The puzzles in the Trials of Atlantis were a puzzle for only the first group of beta players.  It was a set of instructions (with an obnoxious dictator reading them virbatum) and a pretty walk-thru for the rest of us).

So if you want to be immersed in a non-repetitive game period, I think it is best to ignore the community completely.  Since instanced games are the most repetitive, they lend themselves least to community play.

I have yet to find a game that really satisfies me, of course.  But I think that the more satisfying games either have designers that write content in reaction to player actions in the game or the players are provided with a good environment for stirring up their own events and changes in the game that have in-game meaning.

I don't much like a game where creatures mysteriously walk around with all sorts of loot that they have for no reason and never use against you.

Sounds like this game is just going to be a lot like all the others.  Just larger with some new activities like snowboarding.  I kinda want something with a little meat to it.