I quit last week because the game is bleh. It offers virtually nothing new at less than ideal quality. Got bored VERY quickly.

The answer is NEITHER. Devs need to put interesting things to do that aren't leveling.

Meaningful crafting? EASY crafting. I forever love EQ's baking where common mob drops could be used to make steaks with stat boosting effects.

Meaningful buffs that were expensive to use, once given to lower levels was a SUPER boost.  Encouraged higher levels to help out lower levels.

Changable game world based on player interaction; cut a tree down the tree is gone. build a house... etc.

Originally posted by Dragim

In everquest, you had to ask questions to obtain your goals, you had to work together with people to acheive the things you wanted to acheive (generally.)

In dark age of camelot, it was similar.  Player housing provided a new way to interact, as well as the "open dungeons" that you could go into, that were not instanced.

Then came WoW.

It was great at first, people grouped, people talked, there was Open World PvP, that was unstructured, people just did it for...(GASP) the fun of it.

Then...came dungeon finder, cross server PvP, cross server dungeon finder.

You no longer had to make friends, you no longer even had to know anyone.  You could play your single player game without any player interaction what so ever.

Heck even the dungeons are so easy that you don't have to speak 1 word to your group, just go in and go through the motions.

THIS is why MMO's of today are less social. There is absolutely no need to ask anyone for help. Everything is too easy and too simple. Gone are the days of trying to find a group, you have teh gruop finder. Gone are the days of setting up a camp and using tactics to pull mobs efficiently and quickly. There is NO motivation for interaction of any kind.

YES! absolutely YES!

PLEASE! No more grind at all!

Get rid of levels and the stupid quest grind as well.

lets get a fully immersive game that stands on its own with truely fluid game play to keep us interested. Lets integrate the xbox 360 kinect and the ps3 motion with wand to make gameplay more realistic / combat! Let our achievement in game and our carrot on a stick be how our actiions change the gameplace.

OP! I DEFINATELY WANT THIS.

I can't believe some of the counter arguments are "its too tiring"

You freaking lazy ass. get off your butt and have fun. Plus, that puts a distinction into a better player.  A more fit person would be able to grind more, kill more, and be a bettter player. It would really make you a unique character. For you lazy butts, i'm sure they'll allow your character to be even more badass than you actually are, so you'll have a superhero rush thing going.

I think a KINECT mmo would be AMAZING and I wish someone makes it soon!

OP, I love your post. I think very similarly to you.

I think games that become popular using KINECT and the PS3 equivilent will make their way to MMORPGs soon. Think of actual sword fighting, specific gesture based spell casting; REAL DODGING!

Motion capture technology would make this possible. Lets hope for a better MMO experience!

Originally posted by heerobya

Ahh infinite loops!

*edit after reading*

I would agree for the most part. With nearly everything here.

 

1. We need to bring back a lot of the "open world" back to MMOs, and we SHOULD have the technology now with ever faster computers and network connections. I think we have gone too far in the "pretty graphics" direction and as such lost a lot on our way. Still, use of instances can have positive effect if done right. I think WoW has really started on the right track with their "phasing" technology, but we just have to make sure it doesn't go too far. 

2. Story. Story is very subjective. I don't care about the world's story or history, i care about MY story. This is a MMORPG not a single player RPG. give me the old school UO story - there was none - just what actions players do effects the story of the game and the devs keep up. EvE Online is the only MMO that currently comes close. 

3. Levels - I am with you get rid of them. Go back to skill based progression, but NOT horrible skill grind progression ala SWG or some such. No jumping or swimming skills or anything ridiculous like that, no afk macro'ing or attacking walls or any of that nonsense. A quality, AAA designed skill system.

4. Quests - get RID of solo personal quests entirely. Make everything open world dynamic public quests. A quest is only solo if you are the only one doing it at the time. GW2 ideas on crack please.

5. Combat - I won't be satisfied with MMO combat till we have Legends of Zelda or God of War or Devil May Cry style combat in a massively multiplayer online world that doesn't sacrifice 1-4 to do so. Guess I'll be waiting a while.

 

You've basically summed up exactly how i feel! Glad to know there are others like me out there!

I'll take it a litlle further! #5) Combat: Lets see some Project Natal or some sort of real body interaction with lifelike game movement. I want to swing my arms / sword and have it acurately displayed in game. It would def make combat much more realistic and much more random and therefor continuously interesting. We need a Hiro Protagonist for our age to help write the swordfighting code.

(even the weird looking wands for the PS3 are a move in the right direction!)

Originally posted by sekrog

I was looking at your list of "played MMO's" and I wondered something...

Did you feel the same about UO? EQ1? AO?

You probably alluded to this in your original post already, but do you think it's because the majority of current MMO's have all become very similar? (i.e., your recent foray into EQ2)

I know I risk sounding like a viral marketer, I was in the very same boat as you a few months ago.  Thankfully, I found an MMO different enough, that fit my tastes, and I'm having fun again.  Although I'd love to give it a strong recommendation, I've found out over the same period that the game seems to have a very narrow appeal.  That said, I don't want to build something up when it might not fit your particular tastes at all.

That said, it has a 21-day trial that won't cost you anything but time.  If you can afford a bit of that commodity, here's the link to check it out:

http://www.ryzom.com/en/index.html

The worst that can come out of it is that it'll help time go by a little faster until the release of FFXIV

Good luck!

The reason that he didn't feel the same in EQ1 is because that game used to FORCE you to group up and forced downtime and waiting around. This had a side effect of encouraging community communication for entertainment purposes. Remember staring at your spell book? the only interesting thing that you could do then was chat with people. Say what you will about the broken gameplay- it totally encouraged social interaction and community.

Originally posted by brostyn

Every MMO I've quit has been due to end game mechanics. I've never quit because the journey to end game was too casual. Always, that the end game completely changed the game, and grinding for gear isn't fun. No, I don't believe casual games have killed the genre. I think games that have come out with zero depth is what has doomed many of us. Or a game that has a fantastic leveling journey does a 180 degree turn once one is max level. At that point its all about running the same content over and over.

BOld red text: Absolutely. I'm 100% on board with this statement.  Depth, gameplay, meaning, rewards for actually doing SOMETHING significant are what make games good. EQ and other old school MMO's simulated this by forcing grouping and making stuff freaking difficult.

Have you played AoC? someone tell me why different skills matter at all in the early game... what about late game? Totally useless skills: you can button mash and get same results.

Originally posted by Elladriel

Exactly what the title says. I know that technically, these casuals are a necessary chunk of revenue for the industry, and the industry has grown because of them.

But still, I am nostalgically fond of  elements such as death penalties and forced grouping. Having to walk 30 minutes to get to another town. Challenges that felt exclusive, or elite. You'd probably never be part of them, but it was neat to know that they existed in your game somewhere.

Before anyone mentions it, yes I played Darkfall. Not extensively, so feel free to call me ignorant. But part of what hurts for me is that by design I should LOVE Darkfall. It theoretically has everything I miss in classic MMORPGs. Yet I have become so conditioned to the industry standard that I fear I will only ever enjoy games like Darkfall in nostalgic memory.

I'll admit I played WoW, and loved it for years. The change to casual has crept slowly and silently though throughout the industry, and I find myself awakening to a world of facebook games and F2P. Now all I see when I look at games like WoW or its many clones is user wish fufilment. Everybody is easily powerful, able to tackle any problem without much hardship, or "earning" it. Yes, in some games they already pay money to play, so shouldn't they get a reward?

Games shouldn't just be a reward system. Games are meant to challenge us to be better at something (strategy, athleticism, etc.) in order to win, or be "the best". An increasing number of MMO companies these days take your $15/month and hand everyone a 1st place ribbon.

Good business? Certainly. I'm not arguing it isn't. I'm just a hopeless romantic, nostalgic about a genre that used to mean something more.

And I know that I'm not alone, either. /endrant

I think this was an excellent post and reflected much of the same sentiments that i've thought and felt over the last few years. I've been playing MMO's since EQ1 pre kunark! I don't think there is a major mmo that i haven't played. That said, i absolutely agree that the casual gamer mentality has slowly creeped into us all through  a very subtle process over time in different games. I think it was really highlighted when WoW made its appearance. Its a shame. I wish that instead of making EQ easier and focusing on making the game easier to play, they should have made it more realistic.

I'm all for the 30 min walk to another town if it is OPTIONAL. If there is a reward for that journey then, Hell, i'm going. but when I'm FORCED to go to that town to get my new spells, or level up (and levels are stupid) then it is a pain in the ass and shouldn't be part of the game.

Great post OP.

You can absolutely get rid of levels have have every person capable of doing everything.

What you would see is what would hey CHOOSE to do? Sounds a little like RL.

I'd love to see a game that allowed you to pick up a stick and use it as sword as you swung it in real time (perhaps using the wands demo'd at E3 last year). Maybe it won't be effective as an Iron or Steel sword, but it'd work. I'd like to see everyone capable of magic provided they knew the hand gestures required to use the magic and had developed a capacity to use that much mana or stamina or whatever.

None of that requires levels of any sort.

I'm not sure why we as gamers limit ourselves by embracing artificial constructs like "levels" and "skill points"

Alts are a broken answer to broken systems. When you create a system that limits the player people get bored and create alts to do something new.

When games reflect more real-time interactions people will no longer be pigeonholed by their online avatar's characters, but by their own knowledge and skill.

Originally posted by Axehilt

AAAAAAA is a less interesting pattern than AAABAAABAAAB.  Yes, the second pattern is not the most interesting in the world, but it's still an improvement.

A in this case is killing monsters.
B is returning and getting new quests.

Of course, games are interesting due to pattern discovery, so even the AAABAAAB pattern eventually wears down. Well actually the core pattern doesn't, much like the core pattern of rock and roll doesn't.  But you need enough smoke and mirrors and misdirection to make it seem like a new pattern, so they will rediscover it all over again.

Anything given enough time becomes equally boring; be it AAAAAAAAAA or ABABABABABABAB. They are essentially the same. I don't find wasting time running around getting and turning in quests enjoyable. I find compelling combat and choices interesting.

Hell lets see a game that uses the wands and the natal to do actual real-time combat; imagine the group dynamics in that.

Should mmo's do away with questing? ABSOLUTELY YES! Unless the quests were actually quests.

Quests are like  the search for the Holy Grail, or cleansing the Cave of Evil.

Quests are NOT "I need you to give this note to my lady friend." or "These weaklings that i should be able to kill stole my shiny necklace and I need you to get it back."

EQ knew the difference, so did DAoC.

Originally posted by kyte317

Kyte, Your post is awesome. Thank you for sharing, I appreciate your thoughtful voice.  I'm agree with you.

Please, continue to post.

no sarcasm intended, i think it sounds like it is, but it isn't.

It would be a game designed around the New Motion Controllers for the PS3 and the Natal. Follow the persons movements directly like on screen. It would be just like life. You pick up a sword, and whack someone with it, it matters where you hit them, how strong you hit, what armor they are wearing, and if you even hit them at all.

That is the closest to a levelless, classless, skill-basedless game I can think of. Its also the type of game i want!

Very good points. Its too bad WoW is so successful. B/c of it, it will be hard to make games where 'levels' are not the focus.

I like your idea, and I think you're right on.

Thanks to the Motion controllers and the natal, debuted at E3, I think you'll see in some near future the inclusion of these devices in a MMO setting. Your character could tie movements, individualized to specific spells and combat manuvers, where where you HIT makes the difference. YOu could have specific gesutres that have to be learned and mastered in the correct fashion to produce spells. The limits are endless.

tw!

If i just read an update about "milk" and animals being "milked" then SOE / SWG has some real serious issues to work out. They should question why they are even bothering with waking up in the morning: "Honey, gotta go, that virtual mob milking quests/ collection really needs some work!"

WTF happened to SWG??!?!?!?!

So how does this all relate to MMOs????

Healthcare in MMOs are all provided for free from the "state." Orcs have their healing shamans, Humans their Priests, etc. THIS is something we DEMAND in our games. Could you imagine not being able to be rez'd b/c you died without any cash on you? Perhaps you just spent all your gold on that sweet new glowy sword and whooops, you happen to fall off the roof of a house that you were showing the adoring masses your sword to. Oh NOES! DEAD. However, there is the ability to bring you back, too bad you're broke and poor as hell. Oh well, kiss that guy goodbye.

Nope instead for a MINIMUM cost, or no cost at all, the ruling forces of the game have instituted a system that EVERYONE can enjoy. Instead of rotting on the cobblestones you're given a new life, new reconstructed body, hell, they even scrape your corpse off the streets, don't pilfer any of your sweet loots and give it all back to you.

Imagine the outrage if you were treated the same way in the game as you are in American Health care.

Just to point out:  ANY time you tax someone or give tax breaks, whether it is the poor, rich, middle class, whatever, you are REDISTRIBUTING money. Calling obama a socialist b/c he wants to RECIND the Bush tax cuts for the top 1.5% of america is just plain idiotic. There are so many facts, and we only choose to look at a few. Might wanna rethink your argument.