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All Posts by Gormogon

All Posts by Gormogon

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164 posts found

It's funny how differently people can see the same game.  As much as WildStar has lifted from WoW, I don't get the feeling I had when I played WoW back in 2007 at all.  To me, this is maybe 2014 WoW, taken to another level, where you are being rewarded with loot, achievements, pretty colors, funny sounds, or a guy yelling "F--- YEAH!  YOU'RE AWESOME!" every two steps.  I've come to think of it as the Chuck E. Cheese of MMOs: we're going to overwhelm your brain with so many lights and sounds that you'll never stop to reflect on how you really could have had just as much fun eating Tombstone pizza while playing with He-Man action figures in your basement.  At the end you'll exchange your 500 tickets for a snapper bracelet, think it's the greatest thing in the world, and beg mommy and daddy to take you back. 

 

Which I guess is an underhanded complement.  WildStar is something of a unique experience, and comparisons, whether flattering or not, actually don't do justice to what it is IMO.  Even though it has adult themes, WildStar plays to the eight-year-old in today's adult gamers (for those that still have that kid in them anyway), rather than try to be the "dark and serious" game we're led to believe all adult gamers want.  By contrast, WoW succeeded by having broad appeal across ages and backgrounds, like, say the Legend of Zelda games.  WoW was only ever a "kiddie" game by comparison, and in early days it was much less the "inundate you with awesome" game that some feel it has tried to become, let alone what WildStar definitely is IMO.

 

Funnily enough, for all of WildStar's efforts to try to keep me in the game, every time I log in I get bored after an hour.  To me there is no journey here, no anticipation of a long-term payoff.  I really wish it was B2P.  There are hours I could see myself choosing to log in, but not enough hours to make a sub worth it compared to other subs or other things I could be spending it on (ETA: Yes, I know about CREDD.  Nobody is going to casually make enough in game to pay for their sub that way).

This reads like another set up for "This game should have been a huge hit, but the WoW fanboys killed it."

 

Whatever level of success WildStar achieves, it will be on its own merits.  The fact that one feels the need to look to fans of other games for validation that one made the right choice in a game, and then spend half an hour of one's life responding to the absence of validation, is messed up IMO.  It's the gamer version of "She's only making fun of you because she's jealous you're so much prettier than her."  LIke, that's like, so seventh grade. 

 

If you like the game, play it.  That should be enough.

They may have helped ruin MMORPGs for players who prefer social interaction being a requirement to achieve the more meaningful things in a game, but people who choose to play around people rather than with them make up the vast majority of the consumer side of the market.  Blizzard saw the solo gamer as the ticket to continued growth and systematically removed all reliance on other players in WoW.  It worked.  Today, developers are just making the games that the majority of the market wants.   The old codgers lament these games that can't hold one's attention past 200 hours, but that is how single-player RPGs are played: you play through the story, get all the achievements/uber stuff you want, and then move on to the next game.   It sucks if you're looking for a different type of game, and I think it's unfortunate that there is a demand there that isn't being met by today's major commercial MMORPGs, but there's no monumental shift back coming.

Originally posted by Kuinn
Originally posted by Gormogon
Originally posted by Voiidiin

I generally buy most new MMO's but WS has been a hard sell to me, i almost pre-ordered last week but decided to hold off on that idea till after ESO release day.

Honestly if i really wanted to do the whole max level-->raid --> gear up-->raid-->gear up again, i would go back to WoW where its done better and has a ton of more depth.

No i am not saying the tired argument that WS is a WoW clone (its pretty close though) but i am saying that if i really wanted the same exact style of gameplay why would i pin my hopes on something untested, and now the developers are not showing confidence in sales.

Hmm, i will sit on the fence alot more now, hoping there is more to be revealed to help me fall off it in favor of buying it.

 

Er, didn't it just become available for preorder today?

 

Nevertheless, your point is still valid.  If one is looking for the gear up-and-raid-to-gear-up-to-raid treadmill, what are they exactly getting that they couldn't get out of WoW, where they've already invested thousands of hours?  I don't ask that to point out that WildStar is lacking there, just that it's a fair question for somebody thinking about playing WildStar to ask.

 

Different setting, different lore, different maps, different raid sizes, different classes, different gameplay mechanics, different rest of the game. Why does anyone EVER buy a sequel of a multiplayer shooter? Sequel of an RTS game? Why do we even bother buying new games when you can do everything basically in the elder games already? It's kinda a stupid question tbh.

 

It was a rhetorical question that requires placing a value on the things you mention.  This is why I said "get out of WoW", not "find in WoW."

 

Your own answer to the question indicates you only value things being different (however superficial), and that's all anybody should be looking to get out of a game, but that's obviously not how millions of players look at it.  Almost 7 million people still play WoW despite almost a decade of different games being available.  Plenty of them still play WoW almost exclusively.   There are players in every game who play that game almost exclusively.  If different was all that one needed to get out of a game to play it, then everyone should always buy the next game that comes out.  The results to the insane number of "Which will you be buying: ESO or WildStar?" polls/questions across the internet is enough to demonstrate that is not happening.

There's not really any story left in the content that did make permanent changes, perhaps with the exception of the destruction of the main player hub and the residual story associated with it.  The Three-headed Wurm, new Tequatl, Aetherblade hideout, etc., won't hold any particular meaning to you, and the game itself won't provide it.  If you're not there when it happens, you don't get a second chance to experience the story.  Only the people that stay current with the game are entitled to the story as it was intended, and the unique rewards that come from it.  But you can read all about it all if you want, and watch some videos.  That's just as enjoyable as having played it, or so I've been told.

 

The good news is that you'd be coming in after Season 1, so you're not walking into the middle of anything and won't even know what you missed.

Originally posted by Voiidiin

I generally buy most new MMO's but WS has been a hard sell to me, i almost pre-ordered last week but decided to hold off on that idea till after ESO release day.

Honestly if i really wanted to do the whole max level-->raid --> gear up-->raid-->gear up again, i would go back to WoW where its done better and has a ton of more depth.

No i am not saying the tired argument that WS is a WoW clone (its pretty close though) but i am saying that if i really wanted the same exact style of gameplay why would i pin my hopes on something untested, and now the developers are not showing confidence in sales.

Hmm, i will sit on the fence alot more now, hoping there is more to be revealed to help me fall off it in favor of buying it.

 

Er, didn't it just become available for preorder today?

 

Nevertheless, your point is still valid.  If one is looking for the gear up-and-raid-to-gear-up-to-raid treadmill, what are they exactly getting that they couldn't get out of WoW, where they've already invested thousands of hours?  I don't ask that to point out that WildStar is lacking there, just that it's a fair question for somebody thinking about playing WildStar to ask.

Finally.  Over a year after signing up for the beta I was finally home during a window where I could snatch a key from a third-party site.  /exhale

I think many of today's games are designed for you to level characters, reach max level, roll an alt, and repeat.  SWTOR was absolutely one of them despite hanging Star Wars on a WoW skeleton.  GW2, is another example, having multiple starting areas and enough unique leveling content for several alts.  And I think that's fine.  If that is how the developers envision their customers playing, and that's the focus of the game, as along as it's done well, they've accomplished their goal.  The "all things to all people" game doesn't exist.  There simply isn't enough time and resources to build a game that accommodates all types of play.

 

Carbine devoted a lot of its resources toward the endgame, and perhaps the unsatisfying leveling experience, particularly early on, highlights some of the problems with doing so.  Perhaps the author of that article is right when he says that if the endgame is all that matters (in your game), you might as well get rid of the rest.  I know it was said as a throw-away line to emphasize the importance of fun leveling content, but perhaps it's really not that off the mark.  There are a lot of raiding-oriented players who do wish they could just start at max level and not have to play the leveling content no matter how well designed ... it's not fun for them and not why they're playing the game.

Anyone have experience regarding how painful it is to cancel preorders with NCSoft?  Since playing the "paid beta" seems likely the only way I'll get to try on the game before release, and I will be irked if I decide it fits and I don't have the preorder perks, I guess I will go the preorder route and try to cancel if I decide it's not going to work out.  I hate that it has come to that, but alas.

Originally posted by lizardbones

Why?  Seriously.  Why?  I can totally understand wanting certain features in a game, or thinking that the features would be an ideal fit for a game, but not thinking that the features will actually show up, just because I think they should be there.  I do not understand this kind of thinking.  Are people really doing this, or are they just making a big deal out of things to create forum drama?

 

The line you're walking here seams pretty thin.  Saying people should not want things in a game that doesn't have them makes you look like an ass, but suggesting that people who think a game should have something they want are entitled brats hits upon the buzzword that everyone in the gaming community loves these days.  No matter what language you wrap it in, you're saying is that having expectations is unfair to the developer, and that people who have them are lousy.   We're apparently only allowed to expect things that are already in the game.  I think this pro-developer, "I'll happily take anything they give me because I've already decided I'm going to love this game" approach is as unconstructive as the "This game will fail because it doesn't have swimming!" one.

I still recommend the game even though I've given up playing it myself.  And it definitely is true that people bemoan "Kill 10 rats" type of quests and the class/level system, and increasingly the lack of voice overs, and it's like TSW is standing there waving its arms unable to get anybody's attention.

 

I think there are some things that are really REALLY good about the game.  I think as far as questing goes, if you're going to use questing as your primary PvE mechanic, the objectives in TSW are the best I've come across in a game.  I'd love to see some of the ideas adapted to fantasy MMOs.  Imagine deciphering an "ancient code" in a fantasy alphabet you have to learn about in the game by hand, leading you to a tomb where, instead of having to kill hordes of mobs, you have to solve a puzzle to disable the traps and claim the treasure.  Yes please! 

 

On the other hand, I loathe some of the limitations they have arbitrarily placed to intentionally waste people's time.  You mean if I come across this mangled body I can't really inspect it because I'm already doing X?  Yeah, because we need you to run around doing X to chew up play time, so you have to run back to inspect the body after we've sent you to the other side of the map.  I know every "non-hater" of the game defends this mechanic on the grounds of "immersion," but at the end of the day, TSW is a tiny game that had to fish for ways to keep people engaged.  GW2 does the same thing, using different tools.  People shouldn't need their time wasted to keep them playing for N hours a day.  It's an annoying, condescending approach to game design.  As long as its not breaking any of the game's fundamental mechanics, let me play the way I want to play.

 

The chat system wasn't the only problem at release.  Some of the quests were horribly broken, though sometimes in ways where it wasn't obvious.  Funcom did a really good job responding when I reported them, and resetting things so I could move on.  Being able to talk with a rep who was patient and willing to work with me was so much better than the friggin' customer service robots in SWTOR, and it's something I wish Funcom got some credit for, because that's how in-game customer service is supposed to be.  Nevertheless, TSW proves that the silent majority absolutely does not buy into the whole "Every game has these issues at release" garbage every fanboy ever uses to defend broken systems at launch.  Some things are worse than others, but TSW was an offender, and it suffered for it.

 

TERA's player base at release wins the award for most detestable, but TSW's is still incredibly obnoxious and condescending.  The whole "Playing this game proves I'm smart (and obviously you aren't playing it because you're dumb)" mentality is absolutely pervasive among the TSW player base, and I'm sure it helped drive away some players.   I've never had less fun playing with strangers than I did in TSW.  Who the F trash talks people because they are struggling with a quest?  Get over yourselves.

 

By far the biggest issue I've had with TSW is that the combat experience is completely unsatisfying.   I know TSW fans dismiss it as people making petty arguments over animations and what not, but killing stuff is half of your game; if you can't do it in a way that's satisfying to people, they should leave.  It's your fault, not their's.  Ask many long-time WoW players and they will tell you that WoW's greatest strength is its responsiveness, where it is arguably still the king of MMOs all these years later. I describe it as the idea that, as you are hitting your action button, you have the sensation of your character responding, like it's a mechanical relationship.  From there, the animations and timing give the actions "weight."  TSW lacks that.  Somewhere there is a disconnect between pressing the button, your character's actions (and the accompanying sound effects), and the mobs reacting to being hit.  When combat is so much of your game, you have to be a lot closer than TSW was, or you are going to pay the price for it.

 

In the end it's unfortunate.  I get the sense that the reasons why TSW never took off end up portraying the reasons it should have taken off in a bad light, and discouraged future games from drawing from TSW's positives in terms of quests, NPC integration, atmosphere, and alternative character-building system.

 
Originally posted by Homitu

Thing is, it changed drastically over the years, most notably with the introduction of the LFG tool.  I met many of my greatest gaming friends in vanilla and TBC WoW by setting up groups and running dungeons with them.  Although none of us have played WoW for years, we continue to play all kinds of other games together and hang out in Vent daily.  Sadly, I can confidently say that our meeting and ensuing friendship would never have happened in modern WoW's environment.  It just wouldn't.

The process of manually forming a group necessarily breaks the ice and initiates conversation.  Having to coordinate travel to dungeon sites (ie. the alliance run from South Shore to Scarlet Monastery) further enhanced the social requirement.  Not to mention the comradery created by the potential world pvp that might occur on the way.  

People can argue the onus is on the player to be social all they want - that's definitely true to some extent - but the game's systems can absolutely encourage or discourage social interaction.  In my opinion, the single greatest bane of the LFG tool has been the negative impact it's had on the social dynamic of players in MMOs.  

 

This is very much in line with my experience and thoughts on the social side of WoW, right down to how arranging travel to a dungeon promoted interaction between players in the group.  I would argue it's more than just LFG, however.  I think many opportunities for positive, meaningful social interaction have systematically been removed from the game over the years, broadening its appeal to people who want to play around people rather than with them.

 

It's interesting so many people have had such a similar experience with its evolution.  Usually you can get yourself in quite a bit of trouble generalizing your experience in a game, but in this case there very much seems to be something to it.

 

ETA: I know people who played WoW, but never had a friend that did.  So I guess I'm a 6 back when I started playing back around the time TBC as released, and a 2 in the MoP era.

It's not something you'd really want to implement on top of an existing system, but if you made climate an actual feature of the gameplay I think it could be really neat.  You'd obviously need an inventory management system that accommodated the different types of gear one could wear and so on, as well as possibly a flexible ability system that allowed the player to adapt to conditions.

 

Even so, it will always be a very niche thing.  Most players that I've talked to over the years hate the idea of rewards/penalties based on the environment (climate and otherwise).  But I believe there is a slice of the market that would enjoy it if you did it well.

I'm partial to how WoW did endgame crafting in early TBC, I'm sure because that was my first significant experience with it.  If raiding is designed to be a significant focus of your endgame, then to me it makes sense to allow players access no matter what avenue they took to get there.  That is, whether you crafted your gear (or bought crafted gear), ran earlier dungeons, or PvPed, I think that first level of raiding should be accessible to you.  WoW was like that in early TBC.  Your PvP set was good enough in Kara.  So was your crafted Frozen Shadoweave gear, and so on.  So were heroic drops.

 

Beyond that though, no.  I think it's perfectly fair to expect that the best raiding gear result from raiding and the best PvP gear result from PvPing.  What sometimes winds up missing is the best gear for farming/crafting.  Somebody who chooses that playstyle should IMO have bonuses related to crafting and farming that make it better and/or more efficient than those who devote their attention to other areas and dabble in farming/crafting on the side.  Something like GW2's magic find concept or increased efficiency in gathering or material use, shorter cooldowns on specially crafted items, and so on could be things that made that style of play more materially rewarding.

Originally posted by Datastar
Originally posted by seacow1g

I gave the beta a try this weekend and let me tell you: I actually found that they did a lot of things right in this game. Props to the devs for all the work they put in. I'm especially impressed how successful they've been in their implementation of mass pvp.  I would go into more detail of all the little things I found that were well designed in this game except I found that they took out one often ignored feature that  made me decide that this is NOT a world that I want to settle in: the inability to dive underwater.

 

I'm sorry but this is gamebreaking for me. Do I spend a lot of time underwater in games? No. Do I care much for underwater combat? No.  Do I think you should be able to hold your breath alot and swim underwater forever? No (I actually like how it works in Skyrim and Oblivion). But it's just something you "do" in virtual worlds. It's a little interaction with the world that has existed for a long time now and I see no reason to take it out (especially when your gameworld has so much water). It's just as important to me as jumping or emotes; I don't spend much time doing either of those things but take it out and the gameworld just doesn't feel "right". There's so many kinds of adventures and exploration that a player can never have now because they chose to not allow underwater swimming in any form; very disappointing.

 

Now before this devolves into an argument about whether or not they intend to keep diving out of the game, I just want to point out that there have been numerous forums posts about this and there has been no indication that they intend to change this. On the contrary they actually use your inability to dive and fight underwater as a wall mechanic to zones i.e. you get eaten by slaughterfish that you can't fight back against if you try to swim too far out to sea. I'm assuming for all intents and purposes that this design decision is here to stay, and I cannot abide it.

How many times in your life have you been scuba diving, spear fishing, or punching whales in the face in real life?  This is not an activity one does in RL regularly furthermore they do have fishing which is the preferred method of catching beasts of the water just saying.  Now granted it would be nice to see a little more depth to the water interaction in terms of being able to dive down a bit but the combat is rather useless imho and could live without either of them.

 

This is such an inane response. 

How many times have you killed a dragon with a sword or shot a fireball out of your fingers in RL?

One time I ran around with half a dozen people freeing and escorting citizens, but I found the material rewards were much higher running with the zerg; as far as I could tell rescuing citizens was not even close to as profitable (aside from the fact that everybody wins when you reach the milestones).  Necromancer->Zerg->Epidemic->Profit or Engineer->Zerg->Nades->Profit.  There are plenty of champions in the events which seem to drop deluxe gear boxes in addition to a piece of gear.  

 

Incidentally, if you could get 100 people on board, everybody would need to save just 15 citizens, or one every 3 minutes.  It's kind of frustrating that getting more than a dozen people to work on it most cycles is harder than any of the content in the city.  :(

 

I think ArenaNet does visual detail really well (for MMO purposes), and the destroyed city is a really great example of that.  On the other hand, having enough unique content to keep it from getting really repetitive has been a problem all through the parts of the LS I've seen.  The short-lived nature of the LS content creates time pressure that makes players feel obligated to keep doing the same tasks ... but the tasks themselves otherwise don't often have much substance to them.  In the case of LA I would rather have seen some sort of event progression more like Orr's temple events rather than a mostly generic cycle.

My earliest experiences were with WoW's meeting stones that required two players to make the trip to summon the other group members.  Alternatively, a warlock in the group could portal a group member in the same way.  If a player left the group, two members would have to go outside and use the meeting stone to summon the replacement member.

 

I know most players today would find the whole process abhorrent, whether it's the purest "everybody should have to show up on foot" crowd or the "everybody should be instantly ported inside the instance" crowd, but the meeting stone way is the one that feels the most "right" to me.  But then, groups are formed much differently now than they were seven years ago.  Back then most groups for non-max level content were put together among strangers in the zone where the dungeon took place, using zone chat.  Or perhaps you put a group of three or four together in zone and somebody had a friend or two they knew might want to run the dungeon with them.  So it wasn't usually the case that the nearest two people were half an hour away... it was usually no more than a couple of minutes.

 

It was a little different at max level, because players were often starting from a city, but then in raids there were still often a couple people out in the world who were much closer.  If nothing else, players who wanted to travel to the raid/dungeon the "traditional" way could volunteer to do so (I was usually one of these people), and those who couldn't be arsed to do so could wait for a summons.  And while it took some time to get everybody there, people didn't expect 20-minute runs back then either.

 

The whole "Is anybody near the stone?" and "Let us know when you're ready (for a summon)" dialog, as pointless as it seems, was interaction between players.  People so underappreciate how even the tiniest bit of interaction can snowball into a much more positive thing.  It's why, while there is no going back to the way it used to be, the introduction of handholding mechanisms on the minimap was IMO a devastating thing to social interaction.  "Can anyone tell me where I can find Echeyakee?" might lead to some jerk responses, but it would also lead to players helping other players.  It doesn't mean that they would put each other on their friends lists or even ever interact again, but it helped create a positive social atmosphere.  Those opportunities are sadly gone forever.

 

To quote myself from my response to the article currently on the front page:

I've waited for betas for a long time, through many phases in the past -- that's the rule rather than the exception -- but I've never felt so jerked around by a developer at the same time.   The fact that they've been so public about their invites but let in relatively few people, and then handing out 40,000 "insta" invites when at least that many have been signed up and waiting for a year (or perhaps more) for an opportunity to feel they were a part of the game's evolution is a bit crappy IMO.  Understandably, this is really all about hype because one tester is the same as any other, but it's not how I would go about building a relationship with people that have the potential to be my customers for years.

 

I know the folks who get off showing their loyalty to a game developer will throw around the entitlement buzzword, but there is actually more to it than that.  You don't have to be entitled to something to be treated poorly or even just not as well as you could have been treated.  A 10-year-old is not entitled to a foul ball at a baseball game, but a 35-year old diving under the seat to snatch it before him is still crappy.  We walk into stores, restaurants, and many other places without having spent a penny, not being owed anything, but are often treated in a way that makes us feel like our business would matter to them, not just today but as part of a continuing relationship down the road.  In this case some of us have been let in the doors practically on day one, but when we ask to try on some shoes or get a taste of that wine or test drive that car, we get ignored, left to watch generic presentations while people walking in on a whim hundreds of days later get helped.  

 

I don't believe you have to agree that those waiting for a long time deserve anything to recognize that they could have been approached by a business in a more positive way.  I'd say that same thing whether I had an invite to WildStar (or any other game) or not no matter how short or long I've waited.  Heck, I've invested over a thousand hours in GW2 and still believe ArenaNet's handling of the Living Story and it's limited-time-only content is doing a major disservice to a large number of present and future customers.  Yes, absolutely there isn't enough "room" for everybody to always be treated equitably, especially when it comes to a beta.   Some people have to get in long before others.  But I also think escalating divisiveness and resentment is not a positive thing for the game.

 

Anyway OP, make sure you are still signed up for the beta by visiting the website and trying to sign up again.  At one point at least some of the submissions were lost/purged (maybe when they integrated NCSoft accounts into the process) and people who thought they had signed up were apparently no longer so.

Originally posted by Krighton

I'm hopelessly in love with this game, despite the abysmal treatment many people have received from Carbine Studios and beta access.

It's got great potential to storm the MMO genre and wake it up again. Because of this, I believe Carbine has gotten very cocky and think they're *holier than thou* when it comes to letting people play it.

"You're not good enough" yet they claim it's random, but we all know better. On one hand, if the game completely failed, many of us would screech with pure joy as their Karma eats their bank accounts alive. Because you simply don't treat potential, monthly paying customers like shit.  You give them what they want.

 

This kind of paranoia is not productive IMO.   That said, I've waited for betas for a long time, through many phases in the past -- that's the rule rather than the exception -- but I've never felt so jerked around by a developer at the same time.   The fact that they've been so public about their invites but let in relatively few people, and then handing out 40,000 "insta" invites when at least that many have been signed up and waiting for a year (or perhaps more) for an opportunity to feel they were a part of the game's evolution is a bit crappy IMO.  Understandably, this is really all about hype because one tester is the same as any other, but it's not how I would go about building a relationship with people that have the potential to be my customers for years.

 

Anyway, with respect to the article itself ...

 

I appreciate the tidbits regarding the historical and societal aspects of the setting.  I'm interested primarily in the Dominion, so this was up my alley.  Thanks!  I'd actually like to see Carbine release videos kind of like they do for the game's features, classes, and races, but more as miniseries that show us historical events (happening "live" rather than as a historical overview) and set the stage for us.  BioWare did something a tiny bit like this (in a very bland way) as a historical overview for SWTOR with the timeline videos, but Carbine can certainly pull it off with a lot more style, and animated miniseries would fit the atmosphere they've created IMO.  One of the things that helped me connect so strongly with WoW was having played the RTS games and being able to see places and people from those games.   WildStar doesn't have the advantage of building on earlier games, but I'd no less like to walk into a town and say, "Hey!  This is where ____ happened!" or "Hey!  That's that guy from that thing!"

 
 
 

It never bothered me when I ground for primals nearly every day for several weeks to make Frozen Shadoweave and Spellstrike armor in early TBC WoW, or doing Netherwing dailies for a mount.

 

I think having an end that the player shoots for can make all the difference: you have to do this for 25 days, but if you do then you're done, and you have X to show for it.

 

Dailies become a problem, at least for me, when you're given them to do in perpetuity (or at least until new dailies make them obsolete) because they're simply the best or only way to allow you to keep progressing in the game.

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