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All Posts by Gormogon

All Posts by Gormogon

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176 posts found

I don't have a problem with the setting.  The Final Fantasy series has been exploring how fantasy transcends time periods for years.  Steampunk, cyberpunk, post-apocalyptic, and so on have been touched on by the franchise.  A true contemporary fantasy is well within bounds.

 

My problem is that what I've seen looks like the gameplay from the Batman Arkham games with some AI companions fighting alongside you.  

 

I guess turn-based and pseudo-turn-based RPG encounters are dead?

 

 

When a game falls flat on its face, I don't think you can usually point to one thing that was done catastrophically wrong that "broke" the game for everyone.  People look for different things in their games.  WildStar happened to not do much at all that was outstanding.  Whatever you're into as a player, there are game's out there, maybe even one's you've played, that do them better.  In the areas where it was like WoW, it was worse than WoW.  In the areas it was like GW2, it was worse than GW2.  In the areas you might argue it excelled, only a small population cared.

/donstinfoilhat

This will be followed by selling the level 20 experience scrolls in the gem store.

Quarren have definitely appeared as NPCs in both of the Knights of the Old Republic games.  In the first there is a Quarren in the apartment complex the player and his companions use as a hideout on Taris.  In the second there is an Exchange crime lord on Citadel Station named Loppak Slusk, and on Nar Shaaa the Quarren Saquesh was a slaver in the Refugee Sector.  Those are off the top of my head, there may be more.

The fact that TURNIPS is not winning says a lot about how out of touch the people on this site are with today's broader mmropg community.

 

But really, the mistake is in thinking that today's players want to play the same game indefinitely and be a part of that game's community.  Most of them don't, and the rest of the player base is not large enough to justify large-scale games with today's production costs.   Today's consumer market consists largely of solo gamers whose self-esteem is derived from comparing and showing off their gaming accomplishments to others.  MMORPGs make that possible in a way traditional single player games do not.  These people don't usually want anything to do with you or anyone else (except maybe a few friends) unless perhaps to put you down.  That's not to say they can't be perfectly civil and cooperative; most of them can.  It's just not normally worth their time to go out of their way for it.

I think it's intentional, a consequence of the consumer side of the MMO market being dominated by single-player gamers wanting to play in a persistent shared world.  They play their MMOs like single player games, which means that unlike the 5000 hours people invested in WoW or EQ back in the day, players play for 200 or whatever hours and move on to other games.  Subs capture a good chunk of money while those players are playing, and F2P allows the game to remain viable afterwards.

 

The unfortunate nature of sidequesting in SWTOR is something I agree with.  WoW sometimes gets praised for offering different "paths" to max level, and in my experience, none of my max level characters in WoW did the same set of quests (though things got a lot worse at the initial level(s) of expansions). At various levels there were almost always multiple places in WoW I could choose to go and play whether it was because I wanted to do some different quests, see some different terrain, or because I enjoyed a series of quests so much I wanted to do them again.  That is not an area SWTOR does well IMO.  There are definitely ways to level faster/differently and skip open-world content (I made heavy use of the space minigame after my first character), but that's not the same thing as having a quantity of content available for different open-world leveling options.  The railroad from Coruscant/Dromund Kaas to the end off Act I in your class story (even though you can eventually choose the order of the planets you visit) is particularly egregious IMO.  For a game that otherwise begs you to play through with the different classes, I think that's unfortunate.

 

Anyway, while I think there are some serious flaws (the above being one of them), I think SWTOR can be a really good fit for some players.  It is unfortunate that it got dumped on so heavily that people who might have found it fit their taste were kept away from it.


TL;DW "WoW ruined MMOs."

GW2 has the same aiming mechanic.  If you get caught in the path or zone of an attack you will get hit.   WildStar dumbs it down by showing you where the attack path/zone is rather than make the player make a judgment call.  I tried playing with the telegraphs off, and the combat felt very close to GW2 to me, albeit with abilities that do some different types of things.  Also, as other WildStar fans are happy to point out to people who complain about telegraphs: Telegraphs aren't original to WildStar, many games have them everywhere.

 

The one area where WildStar's combat does something that I haven't seen before is the extensive use of attacks that cover abnormal areas (concentric rings, spirals, etc.) and effectively require the player have telegraphs on to avoid them.

I might hate individual quests, but I love questing.

 

I think in some ways we've seen some horrible practices proliferate, like overreliance on hubs and the elimination of context for objectives (see WildStar).  On the other hand, TSW has expanded the possibilities for what can make fun quests beyond just killing W, picking up N of X and delivering it to Y, or bringing this package/letter to Z.  Playing through MoP recently, even WoW I think has gotten pretty good at wrapping objectives in narrative (something I think WoW has usually been better at than games that tried to imitate its questing style anyway).  The questing in Valley of the Four Winds and Krasarang Wilds in Pandaria is IMO among the best WoW has ever offered, insofar as the objectives themselves are buried beneath the feeling that you're there to help the characters you interact with.  GW2's dynamic events are mostly just repeatable quests without the ! and ?, but they can also be good at offering spontaneity and a chain of events that get you involved in what is happening rather than just completing objectives. 

Originally posted by Volgore

* Also in WoW, it was pretty clear where you needed to go. Everything was intuitive. In WildStar, I can't begin to figure out where to go, ever, even on the starting ship, without a map. Very little is intuitive. And figuring out the weird new-but-not-better ways that WS does things (like talent trees and crafting) could have been fun learning experiences, but aren't.

Alot of people complained about about writing altogether and i think that indeed the quests don't explain themselves very well. While in vanilla WoW we got along without questhelpers and arrows all the way, the questtext contained at least some direction or description of the location to where we had to go to.

Wildstar's quests seem to be made with the writers relying on arrows and markers on the map rather than quality NPC dialogue. I agree it's quite unintuitive most of the time, also thanks to the pretty much cluttered environment.

 

Even modern WoW's quests are written well enough that with just a little attention one can discern where one is supposed to go.  Having played WoW and WildStar literally one right after another last week, the difference is night and day.  WildStar so often tells you "Go talk to so and so" or "Go kill such and such" and leaves it at that.  It absolutely relies on the arrow and marker system to guide you to your objectives.  That's not to say you can't do it without using them.  I tried it and managed.  But it was more a case of just wandering around until "Oh!  I see it!"  Which is all fine.  The vast majority of MMO players, both young and old, just want you to show them who to talk to and what to kill.  It's a more efficient use of their time.

Many gamers derive their self-esteem from both their gaming accomplishments and their gaming affiliations.  Being fans of a game that is considered good makes them feel good about themselves.  People leveling quickly, as others have said, gives the impression of a game that is somehow poorly designed, and therefore is a blow to the self-esteem of these players.  Even beyond that, they feel they are now "behind," and to the extent that their gaming accomplishments and the associated prestige in the gaming community that comes with them are important to them, fast levelers are an obstacle in letting these players feel good about themselves.

 

I am not a fast leveler.  I'm an explorer, quest text reader, and completionist.  But I always get a kick how fans of a game insist, as if their entire being depends on it, that players cannot cap in X days.  There will almost always be players who will embrace that challenge and figure out how to do it.  And if that's what those particular players consider fun, I have zero problem with it.  I actually enjoy reading/watching how it was done.  Does it bother me when I'm struggling to get my hands on something that other players have that I want?  Sure.  But by and large my fun is not relative to the accomplishments of other players.  I play to enjoy the game for what it is.  Then I come to places like here and criticize it for what it is not.  :P

It's funny how differently people can see the same game.  As much as WildStar has lifted from WoW, I don't get the feeling I had when I played WoW back in 2007 at all.  To me, this is maybe 2014 WoW, taken to another level, where you are being rewarded with loot, achievements, pretty colors, funny sounds, or a guy yelling "F--- YEAH!  YOU'RE AWESOME!" every two steps.  I've come to think of it as the Chuck E. Cheese of MMOs: we're going to overwhelm your brain with so many lights and sounds that you'll never stop to reflect on how you really could have had just as much fun eating Tombstone pizza while playing with He-Man action figures in your basement.  At the end you'll exchange your 500 tickets for a snapper bracelet, think it's the greatest thing in the world, and beg mommy and daddy to take you back. 

 

Which I guess is an underhanded complement.  WildStar is something of a unique experience, and comparisons, whether flattering or not, actually don't do justice to what it is IMO.  Even though it has adult themes, WildStar plays to the eight-year-old in today's adult gamers (for those that still have that kid in them anyway), rather than try to be the "dark and serious" game we're led to believe all adult gamers want.  By contrast, WoW succeeded by having broad appeal across ages and backgrounds, like, say the Legend of Zelda games.  WoW was only ever a "kiddie" game by comparison, and in early days it was much less the "inundate you with awesome" game that some feel it has tried to become, let alone what WildStar definitely is IMO.

 

Funnily enough, for all of WildStar's efforts to try to keep me in the game, every time I log in I get bored after an hour.  To me there is no journey here, no anticipation of a long-term payoff.  I really wish it was B2P.  There are hours I could see myself choosing to log in, but not enough hours to make a sub worth it compared to other subs or other things I could be spending it on (ETA: Yes, I know about CREDD.  Nobody is going to casually make enough in game to pay for their sub that way).

This reads like another set up for "This game should have been a huge hit, but the WoW fanboys killed it."

 

Whatever level of success WildStar achieves, it will be on its own merits.  The fact that one feels the need to look to fans of other games for validation that one made the right choice in a game, and then spend half an hour of one's life responding to the absence of validation, is messed up IMO.  It's the gamer version of "She's only making fun of you because she's jealous you're so much prettier than her."  LIke, that's like, so seventh grade. 

 

If you like the game, play it.  That should be enough.

They may have helped ruin MMORPGs for players who prefer social interaction being a requirement to achieve the more meaningful things in a game, but people who choose to play around people rather than with them make up the vast majority of the consumer side of the market.  Blizzard saw the solo gamer as the ticket to continued growth and systematically removed all reliance on other players in WoW.  It worked.  Today, developers are just making the games that the majority of the market wants.   The old codgers lament these games that can't hold one's attention past 200 hours, but that is how single-player RPGs are played: you play through the story, get all the achievements/uber stuff you want, and then move on to the next game.   It sucks if you're looking for a different type of game, and I think it's unfortunate that there is a demand there that isn't being met by today's major commercial MMORPGs, but there's no monumental shift back coming.

Originally posted by Kuinn
Originally posted by Gormogon
Originally posted by Voiidiin

I generally buy most new MMO's but WS has been a hard sell to me, i almost pre-ordered last week but decided to hold off on that idea till after ESO release day.

Honestly if i really wanted to do the whole max level-->raid --> gear up-->raid-->gear up again, i would go back to WoW where its done better and has a ton of more depth.

No i am not saying the tired argument that WS is a WoW clone (its pretty close though) but i am saying that if i really wanted the same exact style of gameplay why would i pin my hopes on something untested, and now the developers are not showing confidence in sales.

Hmm, i will sit on the fence alot more now, hoping there is more to be revealed to help me fall off it in favor of buying it.

 

Er, didn't it just become available for preorder today?

 

Nevertheless, your point is still valid.  If one is looking for the gear up-and-raid-to-gear-up-to-raid treadmill, what are they exactly getting that they couldn't get out of WoW, where they've already invested thousands of hours?  I don't ask that to point out that WildStar is lacking there, just that it's a fair question for somebody thinking about playing WildStar to ask.

 

Different setting, different lore, different maps, different raid sizes, different classes, different gameplay mechanics, different rest of the game. Why does anyone EVER buy a sequel of a multiplayer shooter? Sequel of an RTS game? Why do we even bother buying new games when you can do everything basically in the elder games already? It's kinda a stupid question tbh.

 

It was a rhetorical question that requires placing a value on the things you mention.  This is why I said "get out of WoW", not "find in WoW."

 

Your own answer to the question indicates you only value things being different (however superficial), and that's all anybody should be looking to get out of a game, but that's obviously not how millions of players look at it.  Almost 7 million people still play WoW despite almost a decade of different games being available.  Plenty of them still play WoW almost exclusively.   There are players in every game who play that game almost exclusively.  If different was all that one needed to get out of a game to play it, then everyone should always buy the next game that comes out.  The results to the insane number of "Which will you be buying: ESO or WildStar?" polls/questions across the internet is enough to demonstrate that is not happening.

There's not really any story left in the content that did make permanent changes, perhaps with the exception of the destruction of the main player hub and the residual story associated with it.  The Three-headed Wurm, new Tequatl, Aetherblade hideout, etc., won't hold any particular meaning to you, and the game itself won't provide it.  If you're not there when it happens, you don't get a second chance to experience the story.  Only the people that stay current with the game are entitled to the story as it was intended, and the unique rewards that come from it.  But you can read all about it all if you want, and watch some videos.  That's just as enjoyable as having played it, or so I've been told.

 

The good news is that you'd be coming in after Season 1, so you're not walking into the middle of anything and won't even know what you missed.

Originally posted by Voiidiin

I generally buy most new MMO's but WS has been a hard sell to me, i almost pre-ordered last week but decided to hold off on that idea till after ESO release day.

Honestly if i really wanted to do the whole max level-->raid --> gear up-->raid-->gear up again, i would go back to WoW where its done better and has a ton of more depth.

No i am not saying the tired argument that WS is a WoW clone (its pretty close though) but i am saying that if i really wanted the same exact style of gameplay why would i pin my hopes on something untested, and now the developers are not showing confidence in sales.

Hmm, i will sit on the fence alot more now, hoping there is more to be revealed to help me fall off it in favor of buying it.

 

Er, didn't it just become available for preorder today?

 

Nevertheless, your point is still valid.  If one is looking for the gear up-and-raid-to-gear-up-to-raid treadmill, what are they exactly getting that they couldn't get out of WoW, where they've already invested thousands of hours?  I don't ask that to point out that WildStar is lacking there, just that it's a fair question for somebody thinking about playing WildStar to ask.

Finally.  Over a year after signing up for the beta I was finally home during a window where I could snatch a key from a third-party site.  /exhale

I think many of today's games are designed for you to level characters, reach max level, roll an alt, and repeat.  SWTOR was absolutely one of them despite hanging Star Wars on a WoW skeleton.  GW2, is another example, having multiple starting areas and enough unique leveling content for several alts.  And I think that's fine.  If that is how the developers envision their customers playing, and that's the focus of the game, as along as it's done well, they've accomplished their goal.  The "all things to all people" game doesn't exist.  There simply isn't enough time and resources to build a game that accommodates all types of play.

 

Carbine devoted a lot of its resources toward the endgame, and perhaps the unsatisfying leveling experience, particularly early on, highlights some of the problems with doing so.  Perhaps the author of that article is right when he says that if the endgame is all that matters (in your game), you might as well get rid of the rest.  I know it was said as a throw-away line to emphasize the importance of fun leveling content, but perhaps it's really not that off the mark.  There are a lot of raiding-oriented players who do wish they could just start at max level and not have to play the leveling content no matter how well designed ... it's not fun for them and not why they're playing the game.

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