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All Posts by Gormogon

All Posts by Gormogon

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151 posts found

I think it's intentional, a consequence of the consumer side of the MMO market being dominated by single-player gamers wanting to play in a persistent shared world.  They play their MMOs like single player games, which means that unlike the 5000 hours people invested in WoW or EQ back in the day, players play for 200 or whatever hours and move on to other games.  Subs capture a good chunk of money while those players are playing, and F2P allows the game to remain viable afterwards.

 

The unfortunate nature of sidequesting in SWTOR is something I agree with.  WoW sometimes gets praised for offering different "paths" to max level, and in my experience, none of my max level characters in WoW did the same set of quests (though things got a lot worse at the initial level(s) of expansions). At various levels there were almost always multiple places in WoW I could choose to go and play whether it was because I wanted to do some different quests, see some different terrain, or because I enjoyed a series of quests so much I wanted to do them again.  That is not an area SWTOR does well IMO.  There are definitely ways to level faster/differently and skip open-world content (I made heavy use of the space minigame after my first character), but that's not the same thing as having a quantity of content available for different open-world leveling options.  The railroad from Coruscant/Dromund Kaas to the end off Act I in your class story (even though you can eventually choose the order of the planets you visit) is particularly egregious IMO.  For a game that otherwise begs you to play through with the different classes, I think that's unfortunate.

 

Anyway, while I think there are some serious flaws (the above being one of them), I think SWTOR can be a really good fit for some players.  It is unfortunate that it got dumped on so heavily that people who might have found it fit their taste were kept away from it.


TL;DW "WoW ruined MMOs."

GW2 has the same aiming mechanic.  If you get caught in the path or zone of an attack you will get hit.   WildStar dumbs it down by showing you where the attack path/zone is rather than make the player make a judgment call.  I tried playing with the telegraphs off, and the combat felt very close to GW2 to me, albeit with abilities that do some different types of things.  Also, as other WildStar fans are happy to point out to people who complain about telegraphs: Telegraphs aren't original to WildStar, many games have them everywhere.

 

The one area where WildStar's combat does something that I haven't seen before is the extensive use of attacks that cover abnormal areas (concentric rings, spirals, etc.) and effectively require the player have telegraphs on to avoid them.

I might hate individual quests, but I love questing.

 

I think in some ways we've seen some horrible practices proliferate, like overreliance on hubs and the elimination of context for objectives (see WildStar).  On the other hand, TSW has expanded the possibilities for what can make fun quests beyond just killing W, picking up N of X and delivering it to Y, or bringing this package/letter to Z.  Playing through MoP recently, even WoW I think has gotten pretty good at wrapping objectives in narrative (something I think WoW has usually been better at than games that tried to imitate its questing style anyway).  The questing in Valley of the Four Winds and Krasarang Wilds in Pandaria is IMO among the best WoW has ever offered, insofar as the objectives themselves are buried beneath the feeling that you're there to help the characters you interact with.  GW2's dynamic events are mostly just repeatable quests without the ! and ?, but they can also be good at offering spontaneity and a chain of events that get you involved in what is happening rather than just completing objectives. 

Originally posted by Volgore

* Also in WoW, it was pretty clear where you needed to go. Everything was intuitive. In WildStar, I can't begin to figure out where to go, ever, even on the starting ship, without a map. Very little is intuitive. And figuring out the weird new-but-not-better ways that WS does things (like talent trees and crafting) could have been fun learning experiences, but aren't.

Alot of people complained about about writing altogether and i think that indeed the quests don't explain themselves very well. While in vanilla WoW we got along without questhelpers and arrows all the way, the questtext contained at least some direction or description of the location to where we had to go to.

Wildstar's quests seem to be made with the writers relying on arrows and markers on the map rather than quality NPC dialogue. I agree it's quite unintuitive most of the time, also thanks to the pretty much cluttered environment.

 

Even modern WoW's quests are written well enough that with just a little attention one can discern where one is supposed to go.  Having played WoW and WildStar literally one right after another last week, the difference is night and day.  WildStar so often tells you "Go talk to so and so" or "Go kill such and such" and leaves it at that.  It absolutely relies on the arrow and marker system to guide you to your objectives.  That's not to say you can't do it without using them.  I tried it and managed.  But it was more a case of just wandering around until "Oh!  I see it!"  Which is all fine.  The vast majority of MMO players, both young and old, just want you to show them who to talk to and what to kill.  It's a more efficient use of their time.

Many gamers derive their self-esteem from both their gaming accomplishments and their gaming affiliations.  Being fans of a game that is considered good makes them feel good about themselves.  People leveling quickly, as others have said, gives the impression of a game that is somehow poorly designed, and therefore is a blow to the self-esteem of these players.  Even beyond that, they feel they are now "behind," and to the extent that their gaming accomplishments and the associated prestige in the gaming community that comes with them are important to them, fast levelers are an obstacle in letting these players feel good about themselves.

 

I am not a fast leveler.  I'm an explorer, quest text reader, and completionist.  But I always get a kick how fans of a game insist, as if their entire being depends on it, that players cannot cap in X days.  There will almost always be players who will embrace that challenge and figure out how to do it.  And if that's what those particular players consider fun, I have zero problem with it.  I actually enjoy reading/watching how it was done.  Does it bother me when I'm struggling to get my hands on something that other players have that I want?  Sure.  But by and large my fun is not relative to the accomplishments of other players.  I play to enjoy the game for what it is.  Then I come to places like here and criticize it for what it is not.  :P

It's funny how differently people can see the same game.  As much as WildStar has lifted from WoW, I don't get the feeling I had when I played WoW back in 2007 at all.  To me, this is maybe 2014 WoW, taken to another level, where you are being rewarded with loot, achievements, pretty colors, funny sounds, or a guy yelling "F--- YEAH!  YOU'RE AWESOME!" every two steps.  I've come to think of it as the Chuck E. Cheese of MMOs: we're going to overwhelm your brain with so many lights and sounds that you'll never stop to reflect on how you really could have had just as much fun eating Tombstone pizza while playing with He-Man action figures in your basement.  At the end you'll exchange your 500 tickets for a snapper bracelet, think it's the greatest thing in the world, and beg mommy and daddy to take you back. 

 

Which I guess is an underhanded complement.  WildStar is something of a unique experience, and comparisons, whether flattering or not, actually don't do justice to what it is IMO.  Even though it has adult themes, WildStar plays to the eight-year-old in today's adult gamers (for those that still have that kid in them anyway), rather than try to be the "dark and serious" game we're led to believe all adult gamers want.  By contrast, WoW succeeded by having broad appeal across ages and backgrounds, like, say the Legend of Zelda games.  WoW was only ever a "kiddie" game by comparison, and in early days it was much less the "inundate you with awesome" game that some feel it has tried to become, let alone what WildStar definitely is IMO.

 

Funnily enough, for all of WildStar's efforts to try to keep me in the game, every time I log in I get bored after an hour.  To me there is no journey here, no anticipation of a long-term payoff.  I really wish it was B2P.  There are hours I could see myself choosing to log in, but not enough hours to make a sub worth it compared to other subs or other things I could be spending it on (ETA: Yes, I know about CREDD.  Nobody is going to casually make enough in game to pay for their sub that way).

This reads like another set up for "This game should have been a huge hit, but the WoW fanboys killed it."

 

Whatever level of success WildStar achieves, it will be on its own merits.  The fact that one feels the need to look to fans of other games for validation that one made the right choice in a game, and then spend half an hour of one's life responding to the absence of validation, is messed up IMO.  It's the gamer version of "She's only making fun of you because she's jealous you're so much prettier than her."  LIke, that's like, so seventh grade. 

 

If you like the game, play it.  That should be enough.

They may have helped ruin MMORPGs for players who prefer social interaction being a requirement to achieve the more meaningful things in a game, but people who choose to play around people rather than with them make up the vast majority of the consumer side of the market.  Blizzard saw the solo gamer as the ticket to continued growth and systematically removed all reliance on other players in WoW.  It worked.  Today, developers are just making the games that the majority of the market wants.   The old codgers lament these games that can't hold one's attention past 200 hours, but that is how single-player RPGs are played: you play through the story, get all the achievements/uber stuff you want, and then move on to the next game.   It sucks if you're looking for a different type of game, and I think it's unfortunate that there is a demand there that isn't being met by today's major commercial MMORPGs, but there's no monumental shift back coming.

Originally posted by Kuinn
Originally posted by Gormogon
Originally posted by Voiidiin

I generally buy most new MMO's but WS has been a hard sell to me, i almost pre-ordered last week but decided to hold off on that idea till after ESO release day.

Honestly if i really wanted to do the whole max level-->raid --> gear up-->raid-->gear up again, i would go back to WoW where its done better and has a ton of more depth.

No i am not saying the tired argument that WS is a WoW clone (its pretty close though) but i am saying that if i really wanted the same exact style of gameplay why would i pin my hopes on something untested, and now the developers are not showing confidence in sales.

Hmm, i will sit on the fence alot more now, hoping there is more to be revealed to help me fall off it in favor of buying it.

 

Er, didn't it just become available for preorder today?

 

Nevertheless, your point is still valid.  If one is looking for the gear up-and-raid-to-gear-up-to-raid treadmill, what are they exactly getting that they couldn't get out of WoW, where they've already invested thousands of hours?  I don't ask that to point out that WildStar is lacking there, just that it's a fair question for somebody thinking about playing WildStar to ask.

 

Different setting, different lore, different maps, different raid sizes, different classes, different gameplay mechanics, different rest of the game. Why does anyone EVER buy a sequel of a multiplayer shooter? Sequel of an RTS game? Why do we even bother buying new games when you can do everything basically in the elder games already? It's kinda a stupid question tbh.

 

It was a rhetorical question that requires placing a value on the things you mention.  This is why I said "get out of WoW", not "find in WoW."

 

Your own answer to the question indicates you only value things being different (however superficial), and that's all anybody should be looking to get out of a game, but that's obviously not how millions of players look at it.  Almost 7 million people still play WoW despite almost a decade of different games being available.  Plenty of them still play WoW almost exclusively.   There are players in every game who play that game almost exclusively.  If different was all that one needed to get out of a game to play it, then everyone should always buy the next game that comes out.  The results to the insane number of "Which will you be buying: ESO or WildStar?" polls/questions across the internet is enough to demonstrate that is not happening.

There's not really any story left in the content that did make permanent changes, perhaps with the exception of the destruction of the main player hub and the residual story associated with it.  The Three-headed Wurm, new Tequatl, Aetherblade hideout, etc., won't hold any particular meaning to you, and the game itself won't provide it.  If you're not there when it happens, you don't get a second chance to experience the story.  Only the people that stay current with the game are entitled to the story as it was intended, and the unique rewards that come from it.  But you can read all about it all if you want, and watch some videos.  That's just as enjoyable as having played it, or so I've been told.

 

The good news is that you'd be coming in after Season 1, so you're not walking into the middle of anything and won't even know what you missed.

Originally posted by Voiidiin

I generally buy most new MMO's but WS has been a hard sell to me, i almost pre-ordered last week but decided to hold off on that idea till after ESO release day.

Honestly if i really wanted to do the whole max level-->raid --> gear up-->raid-->gear up again, i would go back to WoW where its done better and has a ton of more depth.

No i am not saying the tired argument that WS is a WoW clone (its pretty close though) but i am saying that if i really wanted the same exact style of gameplay why would i pin my hopes on something untested, and now the developers are not showing confidence in sales.

Hmm, i will sit on the fence alot more now, hoping there is more to be revealed to help me fall off it in favor of buying it.

 

Er, didn't it just become available for preorder today?

 

Nevertheless, your point is still valid.  If one is looking for the gear up-and-raid-to-gear-up-to-raid treadmill, what are they exactly getting that they couldn't get out of WoW, where they've already invested thousands of hours?  I don't ask that to point out that WildStar is lacking there, just that it's a fair question for somebody thinking about playing WildStar to ask.

Finally.  Over a year after signing up for the beta I was finally home during a window where I could snatch a key from a third-party site.  /exhale

I think many of today's games are designed for you to level characters, reach max level, roll an alt, and repeat.  SWTOR was absolutely one of them despite hanging Star Wars on a WoW skeleton.  GW2, is another example, having multiple starting areas and enough unique leveling content for several alts.  And I think that's fine.  If that is how the developers envision their customers playing, and that's the focus of the game, as along as it's done well, they've accomplished their goal.  The "all things to all people" game doesn't exist.  There simply isn't enough time and resources to build a game that accommodates all types of play.

 

Carbine devoted a lot of its resources toward the endgame, and perhaps the unsatisfying leveling experience, particularly early on, highlights some of the problems with doing so.  Perhaps the author of that article is right when he says that if the endgame is all that matters (in your game), you might as well get rid of the rest.  I know it was said as a throw-away line to emphasize the importance of fun leveling content, but perhaps it's really not that off the mark.  There are a lot of raiding-oriented players who do wish they could just start at max level and not have to play the leveling content no matter how well designed ... it's not fun for them and not why they're playing the game.

Anyone have experience regarding how painful it is to cancel preorders with NCSoft?  Since playing the "paid beta" seems likely the only way I'll get to try on the game before release, and I will be irked if I decide it fits and I don't have the preorder perks, I guess I will go the preorder route and try to cancel if I decide it's not going to work out.  I hate that it has come to that, but alas.

Originally posted by lizardbones

Why?  Seriously.  Why?  I can totally understand wanting certain features in a game, or thinking that the features would be an ideal fit for a game, but not thinking that the features will actually show up, just because I think they should be there.  I do not understand this kind of thinking.  Are people really doing this, or are they just making a big deal out of things to create forum drama?

 

The line you're walking here seams pretty thin.  Saying people should not want things in a game that doesn't have them makes you look like an ass, but suggesting that people who think a game should have something they want are entitled brats hits upon the buzzword that everyone in the gaming community loves these days.  No matter what language you wrap it in, you're saying is that having expectations is unfair to the developer, and that people who have them are lousy.   We're apparently only allowed to expect things that are already in the game.  I think this pro-developer, "I'll happily take anything they give me because I've already decided I'm going to love this game" approach is as unconstructive as the "This game will fail because it doesn't have swimming!" one.

I still recommend the game even though I've given up playing it myself.  And it definitely is true that people bemoan "Kill 10 rats" type of quests and the class/level system, and increasingly the lack of voice overs, and it's like TSW is standing there waving its arms unable to get anybody's attention.

 

I think there are some things that are really REALLY good about the game.  I think as far as questing goes, if you're going to use questing as your primary PvE mechanic, the objectives in TSW are the best I've come across in a game.  I'd love to see some of the ideas adapted to fantasy MMOs.  Imagine deciphering an "ancient code" in a fantasy alphabet you have to learn about in the game by hand, leading you to a tomb where, instead of having to kill hordes of mobs, you have to solve a puzzle to disable the traps and claim the treasure.  Yes please! 

 

On the other hand, I loathe some of the limitations they have arbitrarily placed to intentionally waste people's time.  You mean if I come across this mangled body I can't really inspect it because I'm already doing X?  Yeah, because we need you to run around doing X to chew up play time, so you have to run back to inspect the body after we've sent you to the other side of the map.  I know every "non-hater" of the game defends this mechanic on the grounds of "immersion," but at the end of the day, TSW is a tiny game that had to fish for ways to keep people engaged.  GW2 does the same thing, using different tools.  People shouldn't need their time wasted to keep them playing for N hours a day.  It's an annoying, condescending approach to game design.  As long as its not breaking any of the game's fundamental mechanics, let me play the way I want to play.

 

The chat system wasn't the only problem at release.  Some of the quests were horribly broken, though sometimes in ways where it wasn't obvious.  Funcom did a really good job responding when I reported them, and resetting things so I could move on.  Being able to talk with a rep who was patient and willing to work with me was so much better than the friggin' customer service robots in SWTOR, and it's something I wish Funcom got some credit for, because that's how in-game customer service is supposed to be.  Nevertheless, TSW proves that the silent majority absolutely does not buy into the whole "Every game has these issues at release" garbage every fanboy ever uses to defend broken systems at launch.  Some things are worse than others, but TSW was an offender, and it suffered for it.

 

TERA's player base at release wins the award for most detestable, but TSW's is still incredibly obnoxious and condescending.  The whole "Playing this game proves I'm smart (and obviously you aren't playing it because you're dumb)" mentality is absolutely pervasive among the TSW player base, and I'm sure it helped drive away some players.   I've never had less fun playing with strangers than I did in TSW.  Who the F trash talks people because they are struggling with a quest?  Get over yourselves.

 

By far the biggest issue I've had with TSW is that the combat experience is completely unsatisfying.   I know TSW fans dismiss it as people making petty arguments over animations and what not, but killing stuff is half of your game; if you can't do it in a way that's satisfying to people, they should leave.  It's your fault, not their's.  Ask many long-time WoW players and they will tell you that WoW's greatest strength is its responsiveness, where it is arguably still the king of MMOs all these years later. I describe it as the idea that, as you are hitting your action button, you have the sensation of your character responding, like it's a mechanical relationship.  From there, the animations and timing give the actions "weight."  TSW lacks that.  Somewhere there is a disconnect between pressing the button, your character's actions (and the accompanying sound effects), and the mobs reacting to being hit.  When combat is so much of your game, you have to be a lot closer than TSW was, or you are going to pay the price for it.

 

In the end it's unfortunate.  I get the sense that the reasons why TSW never took off end up portraying the reasons it should have taken off in a bad light, and discouraged future games from drawing from TSW's positives in terms of quests, NPC integration, atmosphere, and alternative character-building system.

 
Originally posted by Homitu

Thing is, it changed drastically over the years, most notably with the introduction of the LFG tool.  I met many of my greatest gaming friends in vanilla and TBC WoW by setting up groups and running dungeons with them.  Although none of us have played WoW for years, we continue to play all kinds of other games together and hang out in Vent daily.  Sadly, I can confidently say that our meeting and ensuing friendship would never have happened in modern WoW's environment.  It just wouldn't.

The process of manually forming a group necessarily breaks the ice and initiates conversation.  Having to coordinate travel to dungeon sites (ie. the alliance run from South Shore to Scarlet Monastery) further enhanced the social requirement.  Not to mention the comradery created by the potential world pvp that might occur on the way.  

People can argue the onus is on the player to be social all they want - that's definitely true to some extent - but the game's systems can absolutely encourage or discourage social interaction.  In my opinion, the single greatest bane of the LFG tool has been the negative impact it's had on the social dynamic of players in MMOs.  

 

This is very much in line with my experience and thoughts on the social side of WoW, right down to how arranging travel to a dungeon promoted interaction between players in the group.  I would argue it's more than just LFG, however.  I think many opportunities for positive, meaningful social interaction have systematically been removed from the game over the years, broadening its appeal to people who want to play around people rather than with them.

 

It's interesting so many people have had such a similar experience with its evolution.  Usually you can get yourself in quite a bit of trouble generalizing your experience in a game, but in this case there very much seems to be something to it.

 

ETA: I know people who played WoW, but never had a friend that did.  So I guess I'm a 6 back when I started playing back around the time TBC as released, and a 2 in the MoP era.

It's not something you'd really want to implement on top of an existing system, but if you made climate an actual feature of the gameplay I think it could be really neat.  You'd obviously need an inventory management system that accommodated the different types of gear one could wear and so on, as well as possibly a flexible ability system that allowed the player to adapt to conditions.

 

Even so, it will always be a very niche thing.  Most players that I've talked to over the years hate the idea of rewards/penalties based on the environment (climate and otherwise).  But I believe there is a slice of the market that would enjoy it if you did it well.

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