Originally posted by Eronakis

Originally posted by Vryheid

I'm a little stunned at this. Someone in this day and age actually WANTS an experience penalty on death? I can just imagine this message being sent to a high level player after dying in a guild raid:

"Congratulations! Your team managed to finish the epic dungeon and beat the end boss! BUT, because you got picked off just before reaching the exit, we're going to have to dock you 5 percent of your experience points. Sorry that you're no longer able to equip any of your top level gear, but you can at least have fun grinding for the next two hours before you can start enjoying the game again."

Death penalties are an archaic and widely despised game mechanic to begin with, but if we're going to include them we might as well have something like equipment degradation on death which can at least be mitigated to some extent. Experience penalties are absolutely awful.

Archiac eh? That doesn't negate the fact that it's a bad mechanic. I'll tell you the reason why I think an xp loss penatly is favored here at the moment. If you played EQ and WoW you should be able to understand my reasoning.

An xp penalty is probably one of the harsh death penalty mechanics. I think because of the strict penalty it makes the game more serious for players. In Wow when you wipe it isn't that big of a deal. You run in ghost form to your corpse and bam your fine. An extra 1-2 mins taken away. That isn't that bad. What gets bad is when it happens all the time. When you wipe in wow all the time with pugs, the pugs disband. In Everquest, if we wiped we fixed it. We didn't do it again. Players were always on their toes. It made players wise of when to take risks and when to not take risks. You didn't wipe as much and you could accomplish more things. So thats my reasoning behind it. Whether or not you think it's strong or not. That's fine. I am still up changing the penatly to something else.

Exactly when you wipe in POSKY and get dropped in FP and have to run all the way back to EC... get ported back up and set up again and on top of it you lose 10% exp.  That is the fun of it ... the game is challanging and  you stop making those mistakes quickly lol.  I <3 project 1999.

Originally posted by Amarok44

Originally posted by yewsef

You took my ass-biting curses in a friendly way, good sport. Cheers mate!

Ok now back to the subject. Yes, WoW has death penalty but Torik said that his experience in WoW is the same as the OP's experience with EQ concerning death penalties in paritcular which is not true. WoW's death penalty is THE mildist death penalty of all the MMORPGs I played. Heck Aion's death penalty (prior to 1.9) was 10 times harsher. The bill was so big but for WoW I cant even remember there was a difference when I die to my economy.

Actually WoW death penalty makes things easier. I didn't use it "once" to help finish my quest faster. I always use it. Many quests and many traveling tricks. I use death to travel faster and finish quests faster, all the time. Seriously, you didn't do that too? If using death is a good tool to make your game progress faster, can you even call it a "penalty". Few games give you the option to go towards where you are in Ghost Form (no aggro, nothing) and heck you can even go beyond that (going higher floors in tower, or moving beyond your death point). I don't call this a penalty, the few change you have to pay for is nothing. I cant remember someone in WoW suffered economically because of death except for Raiders with Epic Armor in crappy guilds (wiping a lot).

Well there were times when I respawned back between a wall or on a different level of a tower when I could. But I there were very very few times when it was actually beneficial for me to do so. It was always making the best of a bad situation. Unless I was trying to pass an elite mob or I guess if the GY was really really close it was ALWAYS quicker to kill your way through. Dying set you back time wise.

How are you travelling faster? If you're not running all the way back to your corpse you're spirit rezzing which puts you out of action for 15 minutes. (IIRC) Either way you're wasting time doing something you wouldn't have to do if you had just killed your way through.

BRD is the best dungeon in WoW. Best best best. My favorite memoreis of WoW is BRD. If Blizzard make mroe dungeons like it, it will be great. Not only that, make those dwarves in the tavern with their own faction which you can progress by doing quests for them in the dungeon itself. See how good BRD is? EQ dungeons are even more complex. Not only because they are bgiger with too many forks and traps and secret doors. But because they also soemtimes contain different factions which you can build up to make them like a safe haven for you to buy/sell or even use the bank. But yes you are right about BRD, Gnomergan and other WoW dungeons they are not linear. But even then, they are not very complex.

BRD ftw really.

The reason why I used death penalty to make things quicker in WoW is because I can. The developer gave me the tool and I used them. Which proves the death penalty is not really a penalty. I play different kind of games I love StarCraft 2 I own all Blizzard games. I played WarCraft 1, 2, 3 and knew about WoW and been following it since 2001 when they released WC3. I was even anticipating the Adventure Game based on Warcraft's universe (but the game was canceled). See, that answers your question why I played WoW and had multi level 60s and dont forget I consider WoW a different genre of EQ. I still enjoy WoW even though the Quest Driven system is too boring and I disliked many factors but it is a different game.

Nothing wrong with using mechanics in the way that benefits you most. But really other than specialised instances, I really don't see how you would have gotten any benefit from dying as opposed to just killing your way through where you needed to go. It sure as hell didn't help you the vast majority of the time, and I can't understand how you think it did.

So, playing WoW doesn't mean I am satisfying my need to play a game like EQ. Playing WoW doesn't mean it is better than EQ. Just like playing StarCraft 2 doesn't mean it is better than WoW. They are all different games. But if I get an option of a game plays like EQ1 classic, I wouldn't have had the time to play WoW as much as I did. In other words I am not complaining that WoW is a bad MMORPG I am just complaining that WoW (and all the new MMORPGs) are different games. Is it about time to give us a game like EQ Classic, just one. just one title. We dont want 10s of "EQ clones" just one.. Give us one, and we'll shut up. It's just not fair because there are dozens of WoW clones (Quest Driven, and yadi yadi yada.. Rift is going to be one of them btw).

Just fot the record. Now, I am playing a Dark Elf Shadow Knight in Project 1999 (classic EQ emu server). Yeah outdated game, outdated graphics, outdated UI but we're that desperate.

Meh, can't argue we need more choice in the MMO market. However how much you want a polished game that harks back to EQ, it won't matter if that type of game isn't commercially viable. It simply won't be made, or it will suffer such huge setbacks in development that it will end up like Vanguard.

Not to say it won't be viable and won't come to be at some point. Hard to say at this point.

Replies in yellow.

BRD is the only dungeon I have played since I stopped playing EQ Live in 2004 that was great!  I guess some of the 'dungeons' in Vanguard were okay but nothing like BRD and pretty much all of EQ Classic to Velious.  I also play on Project 1999 and it is good stuff minus poopsocking guilds.

EQ

Planetside

DAoC

I will definitely resub to this!

Thank you for posting project1999 I will be playing that like mad.  I quit WoW when my guild finished Vanilla which was about 3 weeks before BC went live and have not played a MMO since for more than a month.  EQ was the only and is the only game besides planetside that I have subbed to and actually thought it was money well spent. 

Originally posted by Bloodfin2003

I'd like to see night time in EQNext just as terrifying (and fun) as it was in the original EQ. Remember the skellies spawning at sunset? Night time should be dark. You can't see jack, and without your torch, you're outta luck.

Yes darkness in EQ 1 was fantastic..it was a mechanic that made sense.

Originally posted by Amaranthar

Originally posted by corpusc

Originally posted by aleos

Originally posted by FadeToBlack3

I think that really is the definition of burnout, too much of the same thing. So Yes.

I guess people should stop making the same fantasy game over and over and over again.

 

and the same game formula in EVERY setting genre.

EQ in space, EQ in the wild west, EQ in cyberspace, EQ in some victorian steampunk world, EQ in a world of pirates, EQ in toonland, EQ in present day.....

 

the setting genre doesn't change the fact they are all variations on EQ1 for the past 11 years

Run quest, get gear, and level...over and over again. Some games do a really nice job of dressing it up with unique little things or great stories or neat atmosphere, but in the end, it's that repetitive nature of the games in that same formula that just gets boring.

There were few quests in EQ especially starting out and the quests were actually challanging for the most part (or just lame time sinks like wait for random spawn every 10 hours in underwater hell) ... WoW is really the game that introduced all the lame constant questing.

I loved trash mobs in EQ they were really dangerous... mobs pathed etc...it was actually a challenge.

I thought the amount of downtime in EQ was just right...

 EQ Pre Planes of Power.  Nothing captured the fantasy idea better than EQ.  Everything else is bland to me as I never feel like I am on an adventure playing MMOs today.

Planetside...nothing better than constant action.  Only wish they did not add BFRs and the pops stayed high.

Originally posted by yewsef

 

I agree about Bill Roper, he was successful with Diablo2 and I remember back in 1999 in an interview someone asked him what game he was playing then Bill Roper screamed "EVERQUEST". I thought at least he has a sense of how MMORPGs go. But playing Champions Online and before that HellGate I have to say that I am extremely disappointed. What the hell are you doing Bill?

Add to your list Brad McQuaid (lead designer of EverQuest and founder of Sigil Online) failed miserably with Vanguard: Saga of Heroes.

 

 

Vanguard failed because they pushed it out too fast and it was buggy as all hell.  If McQuaid did not sell out it would have been a great game if they would have given it another year of dev to work out the bugs and actually implement the end game before people were hitting max level.

Originally posted by Chieftan

Originally posted by lord_seru

What a stupid post

You're comparing a game that IS A MMORPG vs a game that ISNT AN MMORPG

 

WoW is just a game where it is all instanced, and they hand out a bunch of welfare epics to newbies who suck at normal MMORPGs.  

Know when players go to WoW?  When an NPC kills them, or maybe a player kills them once.  So they go to an easy-mode MMORPG indefinitely.  WoW has no penalties for dying in PVE, dying in PVP.  It hands out epics all the time, it gives everyone a copy of their own instance.  It isn't an MMORPG.

Want to play in the Burger King ball pit?  Play some WoW

Maybe a Night Elf Mohawk grenade too. 

 

WoW is just an instanced game for dumb players who couldn't handle EQ.  They needed content they could never wipe on, and a meaningless instanced PVP environment because they couldn't handle World PVP.  

I don't know what else to say.  It's popular because it's dumbed down and easy and there are a lot of giveaways.  If that isn't obvious you haven't played WoW obviously

 

 

Have you played WoW? If so could you link the armory for one of your toons?  I'd like to see your arena rating.

Lol Arena rating... "I want to know if you leveled up a toon and change it each season so you have the FOTM and win by default."  Maybe it has changed since I quit that silly game.

Originally posted by X3NO

Community.

 

I admit I never played DAOC which is often touted as the best PvP MMO of all time, having played WAR and AION after the good old days of cooperative PvE in WoW.

 

I'm tired of PvP communities of small children and their massive egos. In AION it is neccessary for legions to cooperate to defend/attack fortresses and use their artifacts to aid other legions. For which there is little incentive. Of course this just ends up as a load of arguments and QQ on the official forums.

 

People think PvP requires much more 'skillz' than PvE, when actually latency, PC spec and class balance play the major role.

 

In a cooperative PvE game you are able to join a good guild of people you like and it is not necessary - if you dont wish to - to speak to anyone outside that guild. Which can make the experience far more pleasant and less depressing.

 

IMO PvP MMO's have the worst communities, and the need for so many players to coordinate generally means drama and having to deal with a load of complete idiots.

 

 

Planetside is a PvP MMO and has an amazing community.

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Originally posted by Innoss

I would pay 50+ bucks a month for an "eq" style game with top end graphics. This price would drive away most of the kids and adults who in my opinion are ruining the genre anyways. I would then pay even more a month to have monthly cohesive and well developed content.  In fact, I would go so far as paying 100 bucks a month for this type of gameplay and i would still be getting my moneys worth compare to other entertainment industries.Hell just the fact that it would drive away 99% of the kids and pot smoking, crack addled babies as well as the casual  would be enough reason for me to pay for it.

And i bet i am not the only one. So here you go devs. Build us the game. We will pay for it.

Well now all you need to do is organize a couple hundred thousand like minded people, get everyone to agree on definition of hardcore pve.  Have everyone agree to pre-order and pay for a box that will cost a couple hundred dollars no refunds and sign a minimum of a 2 year contract for $50 dollars a month. 

And then after all that you can walk on some water and maybe turn some into wine. :)

 

You make it seem like this isnt possible.

 

You make it seem like until you actually try and find out for yourself, you're still going to believe it is possible.

I would do it as well.

Originally posted by Zorgo

Originally posted by altairzq

What is funny is that nobody considered EQ a hard MMORPG back then, it was just a plain normal game. I wonder if WOW will be considered hardcore in 2015.

 

In a way, people already are. Ginkeq has made a posting career out of his lament for the old days when WoW offered challenge. And he regularly compares that old WoW challenge to EQ's difficulty.

It's hilarious, because in the first couple of years of WoW's release, which he considers the 'hardcore' years, most posts against WoW were declaring it the 'dumbed' down mmo, a trend continuing to this day. But WoW is now old enough to have those who remember the 'good ol' days' and have forgotten the negative posts against it in the early years. Just as many lament the 'good ol' days' of EQ, without remembering the negatives which drove people from that game to WoW and EQ2, never to return.

Historic perspective can be interesting.

I am not sure it was the negatives that drove people away from EQ.  I think it was the fact that all at once these new experiences came out and why not try something new?  So people try something new and get hooked by it and then never go back to a game that has crappy graphics by todays or even in 2004s standards.  For instance I would love to play EQ pre Luclin but that does not exist and the graphics will be so painful to look at all day it will be even harder.  I would love to make a barbarian and go kill me some wholly mammoths and stand in awe at the guys killing ice giants again.  EQ with updated graphics and a reset on some of the mechanics they added would be great and I think would attract a lot of people but the graphics are sooo outdated and the game has changed SOO much that I am not sure it is worth it to play EQ again in its current form.

Originally posted by karat76

 i wouldn't mind more challenged pve but I see no for EQ like corpse runs and I really see no reason outside of pvp for anything to require more than a single group or maybe 2 groups. Being challenging is not the same thing as requiring 40 or more people. game wants to succeed they need to realize most of their players will have jobs and families so these guilds in WoW I see advertising for more raiders requiring 20-30 hours a week for raiding to me represent all that is wrong with mmos. These are for entertainment not to be a part time job.

Some of my best times in EQ were times when I had to get help to get my corpse when there were 3 mobs that were way beyond my level around it that could 2 shot me and I could not afford a coffin so a necro could summon me.  Those times were amazingly fun.  I find it amusing that people are like no that is a terrible idea and it cannot be amusing because it sounds bad but in reality just about everything in EQ was fun pre luclin.

Originally posted by Fyendiar

Originally posted by Ginkeq

Originally posted by Fyendiar

Once upon a time there were two groups of heroes trying to best a giant dragon. Both groups have one person that messes things up and causes the rest to die a horrible death. The reactions of each group have been written down in history...

The self proclaimed old school group:

"OMG U EFING NUB!!!111"

" HOW THE F*** CAN U B SO F***ING WAAAAAAGGGHHHHH!!!!1111"

" We should have been f****ing looting our epics now!"

The casual bunch:

"haha omg man how did you manage that? hehe so freakin funny!"

"honestly, I am pissing myself laughing atm!"

-----

There are other reasons than skill and time that make some of us run the other way when people call themselves "oldschool", usually they are just a bunch of elitist pricks that suck the joy out of everything.

I'd rather wipe on easy bosses with laughter than see one person whine about damage meters or gear in an smooth run through the hardest dungeon.

Fun >>>>> everything else.

Besides... I have seen so many players that had no clue how to play their class while they were clearing BWL in the days. The so called elitists had/have no more skill than the casuals, they just have other priorities.

 

 

Why not go play pacman and have your character stand still until it gets caught?  Sounds like you "casuals" would get a kick out of that.

Difference between "oldschool" and WoW crowd is that WoW crowd does not care about difficulty.  They want to act like retards and get the best gear in the game.  So Blizzard catered to them and dumbed their game down.  

It's not fun to sit 5 hours in a zone chain wiping to the same NPC because some moron in your raid gets a kick out of it.

 

WoW crowd sucks at gaming, and at thinking. 

If you took a serious EQ raiding guild and put it in WoW, there would be nothing in the game they couldn't clear. 

MMORPG difficulty these days is a joke.  No skill anymore

 

 

Yeah yeah I get it, wow sucks, eq rules, you are leet and the rest of the world sucks, you really need a new line.

Thing is that we all play for different reasons, to some it is vital to have the perfect gear, perfect spec, perfect rotation to nuke a boss down flawlessly within as short a time as possible. Usually that playstyle results in a dumbing down of the game because games are not designed for that mindset. Have you ever tried raiding with crap gear? Accepted those "undergeared" players in your raids? Have you ever considered that games are for fun and everyone find other things fun? Hvae you ever considered the fact that not working by those "elitist" rules the game becomes harder instead of easier? We still find our challenges, heck we might even find the content more challenging because we fight without all the protection the "elite" seems to demand.

You remind me of a healer I had a while back. He was complaining that that run went way too easy, he was way too elite for that run, he raided the hardest places and he was bored. However while he was making all these stupid comments I, as the tank dependant on his heals, had to drink healthpots at every cooldown to stay alive and at the first moment another group added he couldn't hack it and left.

A little while later another relaxed "casual" joined and the run ended smoothly.

In EQ there was no perfect spec (no specs at all) there was no thing as perfect gear as gear was by far more random and you could build your character with different gear and still be as good as there were not "sets" for the most part that had stat enhancements based on pieces.  EQ was by far mroe fun and challenging and why I also quit wow..it was just too easy.  I do not spend a lot of time playing games as I have what you call "a life" whatever you wanna quantify that as and WoW was still easy.  I quit and came back and within weeks was back to the top of the food chain only to be bored to death by lame easy content again.  The issue with WoW is that it is soooo cookie cutter and boring at this point.  Every class wants 3 rolls instead of choosing a class based on a roll etc etc.  WoW is the bane of good PVE based MMOs and it is sad and likely will not change.

Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

I think some people who love grouping forget how long some other people have been playing MMOs.

 

I've been playing since before UO and I've grouped for content many more times then I could ever count. I have been part of big guild and small guilds and I have gone solo.

 

After a long time the experiences build up. You realize how much a group is going to slow you down. You know that a publicly made group is going to have people who don't work well in a team or who will just get the group killed. You know the hassles that can come with guilds and the silly rules they try to enforce.

 

So there is a lot of time you just want to go out and explore the world on your own. It doesn't mean you never want to group again but it also means you don't want to have to group the majority of the time. The thought of having to log in at specified times to do group only raids to get the best loot over and over again makes me want to stab myself in the face. But playing along solo and finding a tough quest and asking if anyone wants to group up for a short span of time to get through it can be very fun sometimes.

 

If I was just starting in MMOs now then I would think the concept was amazing and want to join large guilds and make huge groups to tear through the world and feel powerful. But I've been there and done that over and over and over again. I want to have fun without the hassle, and most of the time that means going solo. You don't have to keep hearing "Hold on AFK, need a drink", "Kid needs something hold on." No need to have a guy lag out and log back in 5 minutes later and now you have to wait for him to get back. There is sooo much hassle and annoyance that comes in groups that it makes it hard to deal with all the time.

 

I think that's why back years ago when I played WoW I spent most of my time in battlegrounds. There was a group dynamic of having one side help another but you didn't all have to move around at the same time. There weren't AFKs because people knew they were joining a battleground and aprox how long it would take. It was challenging as it was players vs players and at the same time it allowed you to make a difference for your side with your skill and character. This is much different then forming up a bunch of people to run through a quest, and it is a lot more fun.

Slow you down from what?  Some meaningless peice of gear?  That is the whole problem too many people are worried about the infamous end or whatever it is that you are seeking.   Making large groups ???  Feel powerful??? That is not why I want to play games I want to socially interact with people while doing something challenging.  Soloing in MMOs is the opposite of challenging not to mention you may as well play a console game at that point.  In L2 soloing was cake as the only way you were going to die is if you got ganked.  Soloing in WoW is the easiest thing in the world as you can solo your way to 80 without ever getting below 50% health!!!   Soloing BGs is easy as well hell back in the day it was advantageous to just drop the group and play by yourself. 

Granted as you said PUGS suck..ya but that is not what you should be doing anyway as the purpose of online games is to play with others and with that said you build relationships with hundreds of people.  You then play with those people you trust and have relationships with but in todays game people are too worried about acquiring 10k gold to buy some stupid mount or running through some newb zone for some silly ass acheivement to play the game with others.   The fast leveling also makes this a problem as the focus is entirely on raiding or this infamous end game pvp which is just another way to get gear and flash your epeen.  (planetside fixed that issue being a gear less game ftw) 

Games need to be challenging again but people are scared to die!  Omg 45g in repairs now I have to go kill 50 mobs or pick 100 flowers.  Challenging games with group focus are entertaining...easy mode games that succumb to the lazy unmotivated kids that are all around these days.

If changing for the better means instant gratification then I would agree.  MMOs today give instant gratification... hell most of those MMO players should just play single player games... Such as Dragon Age as you get your loot...you do not talk to anyone other than to coerce them into getting you loot so that aspect is not relevant as you can just force the NPC to help you out.   I will never understand why anyone would play a MMO that is a soloer it makes no sense and defies the logic of the entire concept of a MMO. 

Originally posted by chrisel

Originally posted by Korrowan

Originally posted by Simiel

 

Lol you are apparenlty the insecure person who has to insult other people for wanting to actually play with others in a MULTIPLAYER game lol.  I love these kids that have the epeen mentality that is so prevalent with todays MMOs.  Back in the day MMO gaming was better..not because of the games..but because this type of attitude was so less prevalent.

 

So, the MMO's from the 'good old days' are better than those on marked today? All you need is better gfx in same old game & problem is fixed...?

No the issue is the people playing a lot of these games want things RIGHT now.  They have been handed everything to them since they were conceived and having to "work" for something is too hard for them to fathom.  Along with that they do not want to work with others as all they care about is themselves (see facebook, there is a really good article on this phenomenom).  Everyone wants the best but wants it easy. 

Back in the day when I played EQ from 1999-2004 we worked for stuff.  I had no issue with camping a froglok with a group for 6 hours a day until I got my FBSS for instance.  The reward for the time spent was enough not to mention the relationships that were created with the people I was grouped with.  To this day I still have friends that I met in EQ grinding out levels and gear.  Now its just fly through this dungeon and get l33t epix so you faceroll some noobs.  Its as if the community went from being a community to a bunch of "I"s and it has destroyed what a MMO used to be.  It used to be about creating relationships with others while playing a game..now its about loot and everyone else can go to hell as all that matters is "MY" loot.  Notice the change in the dynamics.

MMOs today cater to that type of person and not to the people who played to create relationships and have fun while doing it.  Today its much better to just go to the bar and shoot pool or join a social club as the social aspect of MMOs was all but destroyed by WoW and its loot centric soloing mentality.  Another place this is noticed is how people choose arena partners and will dump someone regardless of how well they know them for some random guy because his loot is better... it makes me sick.