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All Posts by Scot

All Posts by Scot

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5214 posts found
Originally posted by Pepeq
Originally posted by sirchive

MMOs have a very limited future. The younger generations of gamers who grow up with iPads and cellphones in thier hands from age 4 or 5 are not going to sit at a computer and play MMOs. The whole concept of slow steady progression and long term, in-depth gameplay over years is completely foreign to most younger players. 

Even Blizzard sees the handwriting on the wall. They took their 'next-gen MMO', code-named Titan, stripped out the MMO elements and rebuilt it as a Team Fortress style shooter. They will milk WoW for the next decade or so but it's obvious that they have reduced the amount of focus they put on it. Instead they seem move excited about their upcoming MOBA and FPS products. 

Kind of a flawed logic there as the younger generations are the one's making games like Flappy and Candy Crush million dollar babies.


Even a simple game can get you to play it for hours... the problem here is, some games aren't giving you reason to WANT TO play them for hours.  That is what changed.


Also, too many games leads to fickle players.  If you know a new game is coming out every week, you're less likely to play the ones that are out for very long.  Doesn't matter what genre you play, all of them are competing for your attention and they all generally get it.

I think sirchive has made some very salient points. Will gamers sit at a desk in the future? If not its bye bye mouse and keyboard, hello dumbed down controller. We complain about the short termism of gaming today, those brought up on such games will only want more of the same. SMO - Small Multiplayer Online is where we are already at today.

It is the older generation as well that have made Candy Crush millions. But they will leave as I mentioned early, the last playbase is now being mined. Once they go I am not sure those teenagers will sustain the next Candy Crush. On balance I think they will but will they support the next Perfect World, TERA or AA? I doubt it.

As you say Peyeq, the huge blob of games we now have is detrimental to gaming. But you will see posters on this very thread citing that as a reason to believe the industry is doing fabulously. Too much product in any market will lead to slash and burn in that market. It's not good for the industry or the players.

Originally posted by Thestrain
Originally posted by Scot

I am not a lover of doom and gloom but I do see that good numbers do not mean the industry is doing fabulously. And if you look over these forums you will find many, often the majority of posts reflect that. You do realise that before every fall the numbers were good? There were great numbers just before the credit crunch for example.


I am sorry bro but that is what it is. Everything you said in long post is nothing but doom and gloom.

And the fact that you think only because i am more positive about MMO's future it means i am some new guy who just started playing the MMOS show that any further discussion with you will be pointless. 

I started playing MMOS when Anarchy Online launched so i have been playing MMOs for quite a while now. If you want to paint a picture that all old gamers are negative and pessimistic you are free to do so but i won't be any part of it. 

I have learned to adapt and change with time. And despite of few bad games i still have so many game to play i just wish i had more free time.

Fair enough, AO is a decent time frame for anyone. I too play new MMOs, I just don't find them to be as enjoyable as you do.

Originally posted by Thestrain
Originally posted by Scot
Originally posted by Pepeq
Originally posted by Gwahlur
Originally posted by Scot

Lobotomist's post put me on to this article which is well worth reading in full. I particularly liked butterflies as a term for player behaviour as opposed to locusts and the term non-MMO to describe what MMOs have become:

The Decline of MMOs
Prof. Richard A. Bartle
University of Essex
United Kingdom
May 2013

Ten years ago, massively-multiplayer online role-playing games (MMOs) had
a bright and exciting future. Today, their prospects do not look so glorious. In an
effort to attract ever-more players, their gameplay has gradually been diluted and
their core audience has deserted them. Now that even their sources of new casual
players are drying up, MMOs face a slow and steady decline. Their problems are easy
to enumerate: they cost too much to make; too many of them play the exact same
way; new revenue models put off key groups of players; they lack immersion; they
lack wit and personality; players have been trained to want experiences that they
don’t actually want; designers are forbidden from experimenting. The solutions to
these problems are less easy to state.


Good read

It's still an opinion piece... they did similar such thesis on notable pop figures as Madonna.  Fluff articles at best.

Anything is opinion, even science. It is his contribution to the founding of MUDs which counts, I will ask you the same question I did Quirhid, perhaps you can tell us your industry credentials?

One doesn't need industry credentials to call BS on it though. One only needs to look around.

We have more choices in MMOS than we ever had. 

More Players play MMOS than they ever did.

More and more Indie and small companies are now making MMOS than they ever did.

MMOS are making more money than they ever dreamed of.

Crowd funding is all time high which means people are very much interested in MMOS.

To say MMO's are dying or have bleak future is just BS. Yes they didn't turn out exactly the way you want (sorry that is life) but that doesn't mean the world revolves around your opinion. (by you i mean people who love the doom and gloom).

Nor does one need to have an army to walk into Mordor, but it helps. :)

Ok so no industry credentials, neither have I. But I have been gaming for too long to remember and you strike me as someone who has only been doing it for a few years, but I may be wrong. That perspective means the reasons you gave for why the gaming industry is strong seem shallow to me:

We do not have more choices than we ever had, we have more MMO's, tons more. But they are nearly all built on one template, WoW's. The same game with a different skin on it. Most built on a small budget with a cash shop that demeans gaming ethos.

More 'players' do play MMO's than they ever did. But where do these players come from? They have been mined over the years from players who are more and more casual. In an effort to maximise the playerbase, people have been tempted to play MMOs who are not really MMO players. They are butterflies (players who flit into a MMO, do not settle done and are gone in a month) or locusts (who treat a MMO like a solo game that needs to be beaten then go). The industry is now mining mobile phone users, there are no more casual players out there, once they are fed up with what is on offer, MMO's are going to go over a cliff.

There are some interesting indie startups. There is some hope there. But the bar is very high in the graphical department, will these MMOs be able to compete, to put in the content updates a MMO needs to survive and do something different? So far not one has to my knowledge. Some like PoE have/had? a good cash shop. But offering something new to the genre with top rate graphics may be beyond indies. As you say many have come out, nothing ground breaking so far, that should tell you something.

Gaming is now the biggest entertainment in money terms in the world, so MMOs are now making more money. But as I have said, the casual playerbase can get no bigger, they will be left with those new to gaming, teenagers, in the long term. The playerbase will shrink and the money with it.

Crowd funding is mostly funded by players like me who yearn for something more than what we have now. So far their dreams have not been realised. So I don't hold out much hope here, in the long term players will realise they are not getting what they wanted.

I am not a lover of doom and gloom but I do see that good numbers do not mean the industry is doing fabulously. And if you look over these forums you will find many, often the majority of posts reflect that. You do realise that before every fall the numbers were good? There were great numbers just before the credit crunch for example.

The gaming industry is already based on a shopping mall model. Are players happy to call themselves shoppers? The industry is moving towards a casino model, maybe in the future there will be millions who are happy to call themselves gamblers instead of players. But I think they will wise up and call it a day. You will still have some form of gaming, I am just not sure even you would recognise it as such.

The top WoW clones are MMOs like Rift and GW2 (not 1) EQ2 (not 1), WS; for some strange reason they did not want to mention those. :D
Originally posted by Pepeq
Originally posted by Gwahlur
Originally posted by Scot

Lobotomist's post put me on to this article which is well worth reading in full. I particularly liked butterflies as a term for player behaviour as opposed to locusts and the term non-MMO to describe what MMOs have become:

The Decline of MMOs
Prof. Richard A. Bartle
University of Essex
United Kingdom
May 2013

Ten years ago, massively-multiplayer online role-playing games (MMOs) had
a bright and exciting future. Today, their prospects do not look so glorious. In an
effort to attract ever-more players, their gameplay has gradually been diluted and
their core audience has deserted them. Now that even their sources of new casual
players are drying up, MMOs face a slow and steady decline. Their problems are easy
to enumerate: they cost too much to make; too many of them play the exact same
way; new revenue models put off key groups of players; they lack immersion; they
lack wit and personality; players have been trained to want experiences that they
don’t actually want; designers are forbidden from experimenting. The solutions to
these problems are less easy to state.


Good read

It's still an opinion piece... they did similar such thesis on notable pop figures as Madonna.  Fluff articles at best.

Anything is opinion, even science. It is his contribution to the founding of MUDs which counts, I will ask you the same question I did Quirhid, perhaps you can tell us your industry credentials?

Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by Scot

That Bartle-guy sure is a joke. A fanboi with a degree. An idealist too which makes him worse! And the stuff he asserts... it is ridiculous.

For example, how the hell is designing MMOs more of an art form than designing any other game? Where have we established that? Has some research shown that players dismiss classless character systems specifically because they are "too different"? He speaks on the subject as an authority yet admits there is little to no research done on game design.

In other words, a lot of what he's talking about is based on his own subjective experiences and -preferences on what MMOs are and what they should be. Just like any other forum poster here.

If this did not get under your skin so much you might have noticed he said he did not have all the answers. I can't see why MMOs would be more of an art form, I can see why he says games could be.

He is a professor, not just someone with a degree. His academic background is of no importance to me but since you decided to slate him like that I think it should be pointed out that that's what you are doing.

For me it was his hand in creating MUD1 that gives his words more weight than your average poster here. Or perhaps you would like to tell us your industry credentials?

Was it scientific proof of what many of us have been saying all these years? No. But you seem rather rattled that something more than just another post from the old school guys has been presented to this thread.

I do think it adds to the case of the many amongst us who have been saying this for so many years now. We predicted the problems MMOs now have, and this is now the age of the cash shop non-MMO. He is more optimistic than I am, I doubt we will see a new MMO that will turn things round.

Old players have and will leave for other games, I and guild members I know have already done that several times in their gaming history. But what I have noticed is that the times we spend in a MMO are getting shorter and the times we are not playing MMO's is getting longer. That direction of travel will continue until we don't come back.

Meanwhile non-MMO's will rely on the teenagers new to gaming. As he said they have slashed and burned their way through casual gamers. Mobile phone users are now being mined for players, there is no audience for gaming outside of that for them to find.

It will take years for them to get through that new cellphone audience mind you, but when they do the more mature online gaming audience will melt away. Good luck with those teens and preteens.

Lobotomist's post put me on to this article which is well worth reading in full. I particularly liked butterflies as a term for player behaviour as opposed to locusts and the term non-MMO to describe what MMOs have become:

The Decline of MMOs
Prof. Richard A. Bartle
University of Essex
United Kingdom
May 2013

Ten years ago, massively-multiplayer online role-playing games (MMOs) had
a bright and exciting future. Today, their prospects do not look so glorious. In an
effort to attract ever-more players, their gameplay has gradually been diluted and
their core audience has deserted them. Now that even their sources of new casual
players are drying up, MMOs face a slow and steady decline. Their problems are easy
to enumerate: they cost too much to make; too many of them play the exact same
way; new revenue models put off key groups of players; they lack immersion; they
lack wit and personality; players have been trained to want experiences that they
don’t actually want; designers are forbidden from experimenting. The solutions to
these problems are less easy to state.

Can anything be done to prevent MMOs from fading away?
Well, yes it can. The question is, will the patient take the medicine?

From their lofty position as representing the future of videogames, MMOs
have fallen hard. Whereas once they were innovative and compelling, now they are
repetitive and take-it-or-leave-it. Although they remain profitable at the moment, we
know (from the way that the casual games market fragmented when it matured) that
this is not sustainable in the long term: players will either leave for other types of
game or focus on particular mechanics that have limited appeal or that can be
abstracted out as stand-alone games (or even apps).

The central issue is that MMOs don’t actually appeal to everyone. Those whom
they do appeal to, they appeal to very powerfully – even transformationally – but not
everyone wants or needs what they offer. The word massively in the acronym doesn’t
mean they’re mass-market, it merely means that more people can play in the same
shared environment at once than can do so in a regular multi-player game. You can
have a profitable MMO with 20,000 players, you don’t need 2,000,000. However,
developers have in general chosen to make their money from volume rather than
from pricing, attempting to draw in a wide audience of less-engaged players rather
than a narrow audience of enthusiasts. In so doing, they have collectively lost their
hard-core players to single-player RPGs and have slash-and-burned their way
through almost all the casual players they could reach. What’s left to them is an army
of butterfly players, flitting from new MMO to new MMO: engaged enough to try the
out, but not sufficiently so that any particular one will win their loyalties.
Among non-gamers, MMOs are perceived as being time sinks that you play for
a while but then leave when you get bored or the gameplay gets too hard. Among
gamers, they’re regarded as unsophisticated and exploitative, with a pay-to-win
revenue model that legitimises corruption.

To recover from this, MMOs have to go back to their roots. They have to
remember what it is about MMOs that’s fun.


The problems plaguing MMOs are not hard to state, but they can’t be dealt
with unless their causes are identified. So, what are the main issues facing MMOs’
decline and how did they arise?

Development costs
MMOs cost too much money to develop. Art, animation and voice assets are
required in bulk and are costly. Even these pale alongside the demands of content
creation – although at least content creation is related to gameplay. There are three
main reasons for these high costs:
1) Marketing. If your MMO looks gorgeous, features a popular intellectual
property, you have big-name stars doing voice-overs, your characters act
fluidly and everything oozes quality, then people will want to play it. They will
see that money has been spent on the surface quality, so will assume it has
also been spent on depth quality. They are, however, likely to be disappointed:
most developers spend so much on surface than they have little left for depth.
The look and IP of a game is good at attracting new players, but has little to do
with making playing an MMO fun. It can aid immersion, but there are far less
expensive ways of doing that.
2) Raising the bar. If players have been groomed to expect an MMO to have
superb polish, they won’t play ones that don’t. This makes it harder for new
developers to enter the market and compete, even if their MMO’s gameplay is
superior. Therefore, it is in the interests of publishers to keep raising the bar
in order to reduce competition.
3) Finance. The way that publishers and venture capitalists generally work,
money is available in chunks of particular sizes (for example $1m, $5m,
$20m). If a developer calculates that they need an out-of-band amount (for
example $2m) then they are unlikely to be lucky. Counter-intuitively, they
have to ask for more money than they want in order to get any; their product
design must therefore be expanded to justify what is being asked for. You
don’t actually need a million players for an MMO to be profitable, but if you
have to make an MMO aimed at garnering a million players in order to justify
the money you’re asking for (because you can’t ask for less), well, that’s what
you’ll do.

Too many clones
Most MMOs play exactly the same as one another. It doesn’t matter what the
genre is – Fantasy, Science Fiction, Superhero, whatever – the gameplay is pretty
much the same and has been since DikuMUD. There are three main reasons for this,
all of which are consequences of high development costs:
1) Re-use of technical assets. We saw this in the days of text MUDs, when people
would take a complete game engine and use it to create a new game curiously
1 The upcoming MMO Camelot Unchained being developed by veteran designer Mark Jacobs, has a $5M development budget that can be justified by 50,000 subscribers (, 2013).
similar to the new games everyone else using the engine created. The worlds
would change but the games wouldn’t. Of course, if you have invested millions
in making an MMO engine it makes sense that you would want to use it for
more than one product, but if little changes except the setting then eventually
players will see through that. Production lines create identical products
cheaply – that’s the whole point of them. It does mean the products are
identical, though.
2) Fixed tools. If your quest-creation tool only allows 11 different types of quest,
your new MMO will only have 11 different types of quest (and it will,
definitely, have quests). There are only a certain number of ways 11 varieties of
quest can be spun before players will notice that they’re all basically the same.
Clones are bad because if players leave one MMO to play another and find it’s
basically the same (or is worse), then eventually they’ll leave one and not come
back to MMOs at all.
3) Fear of failure. MMOs cost so much to make that if they fail it can be
catastrophic for a developer. There is less chance of their failing if they use a
proven model, therefore developers go with the proven model. The way that
company management sees it, if they develop a clone then they’re rolling a die:
on a 1 they get back their stake; on a 2-6 they get back ten times their stake.
For a non-clone, on a 1 they get back their stake; on a 2 they get back a
thousand times their stake; on a 3-6 they lose their stake. This is exciting if the
stake is $1, but frightening if the stake is $50,000,000.

Player type imbalance
People play MMOs for different reasons which can be characterised as player
types (Bartle, 1996). All of these player types are needed if an MMO is to be healthy.
For example, an MMO with achievers but no socialisers will shed achievers, because
low-level achievers will find that there are no players that they are “better” than and
so leave. Likewise, an MMO with socialisers but no achievers will mean players have
little to do and will leave. Today’s MMOs have two main sources of type imbalance:
1) Revenue model. The switch from subscription to free-to-play is bad for
achievers. It doesn’t matter how much you try to persuade them otherwise,
any payment for any gameplay-affecting item or service is pay-to-win.
Anything that improves your chances of getting something gameplay-affecting
is pay-to-win. Only purely cosmetic items are not seen as pay-to-win (and
even some of those are unacceptable if they give the impression you’ve
achieved something you haven’t). Pay-to-win attracts socialisers but puts off
achievers (except cheating achievers). Achievers are the core audience for
MMOs; they’ve long been abandoning them for single-player games. When an
MMO is designed around a revenue model rather than around fun, it doesn’t
have a long-term future.
2) Elder game. When players reach the end of the levelling game, they start a
new game. This usually involves raiding or player-versus-player, along with
daily quest and instance grinding. This elder game is a completely different
experience to the levelling game and is not generally appealing to socialisers.
Learning various boss dances is rarely fun unless you know everyone involved,
and PvP is dispiriting when you get killed over and over by better (or richer)
achievers. There are only so many alts socialisers will level up before they
leave for pastures new.

Player expectations
Each MMO player has their own idea of what the MMO paradigm involves.
They won’t play if they see things they don’t like; they are also reluctant to play if
they don’t see things they do like. This is irrespective of whether these views are
ultimately self-defeating (Bartle, 2004). The reasons for this are:
1) Trained by experience. This follows from the fact that so many MMOs are
clones. Players play an MMO and observe it to have particular features. They
play other MMOs and observe them to have the same features. They come to
believe these features are intrinsic to what it means to be an MMO, although
actually they’re probably not. For example, there’s nothing that says an MMO
must have character classes and levels, but most do and so players expect
both. If an MMO differs in one dimension (for example it has skill sets instead
of classes) then it might be given a chance; if it differs in several, though,
many potential players will decline to play because what’s being offered is too
different to what they’ve been trained to expect.
2) Short-sightedness. Most players can’t or won’t see beyond the short-term. If a
feature has a short-term disadvantage and a long-term advantage, they will
not go through the pain to reach the gain. Likewise, if a feature has a shortterm
advantage and a long-term disadvantage, they will take the gain then
leave when the pain comes (then in all likelihood decry competing MMOs that
don’t have the very feature that caused them to leave).
3) Expanding audience. The attempts at inclusiveness in today’s MMOs mean
that many casual-style players (unsurprisingly) treat them casually. They see
them as limited-period activities that have a player half-life of three months.
There’s no point in starting one that has been going awhile because you’ll be
so far behind the power curve that you’ll never catch up; it’s better to wait for
someone else to bring out a new MMO and try that instead. As a result,
players rarely become sufficiently invested in an MMO to play it for long.
People used to play text MUDs for two years before they quit (and some never
did quit); this is rarely the case for today’s MMOs.

Lack of immersion
Immersion is the sense that you, the player, are in the virtual world – that
your character is you. It’s an incredibly powerful state which MMOs are particularly
geared up to deliver and that very few other activities can equal (Bartle, 2003).
Today’s MMO players rarely get to experience it, though, despite the fact that the
better textual worlds of the 1990s successfully had a very deep sense of being “real
but different”. This is because:
1) Depth is difficult. Today’s graphical worlds are excellent at making a world
look real, but as a consequence it’s harder for them to behave real. Characters
jump into a river without making a splash, then swim across it in full armour
without sinking, to emerge without being wet and with the glass of milk
they’ve had in their backpack for several years still as fresh as the day they
bought it (Bartle, 2011). This happens because animating all these effects for
every object is simply too expensive an undertaking (it was far easier in text,
where it merely had to be described in words).
2) Other players grief. To protect players from one another, MMOs omit
common functionality that objects in the real world exhibit. This makes the
virtual world less immersive. For example, doors either don’t exist or, if they
do, can’t be opened or closed; this is to stop players from shutting one another
in or out of buildings. Objects that are dropped on the ground are instantly
destroyed before they land; this is to stop players from dropping thousands of
pieces of rubbish to flood the MMO’s database and slow it down. Objects can’t
easily be transferred between players; this is to degrade the services offered by
gold farmers. If a world doesn’t behave as it “should”, it won’t feel realistic and
immersion will be harder to attain.
3) Revenue model. If you want people to buy in-game goods and services for real
money then real money has to be involved. Real money is sufficiently
important to players that, however you disguise it, they will regard it as being
real. Unfortunately, the more real that they see in the virtual, the harder it
becomes for them to sustain the conceit that the virtual is separate from the
real – an essential component of immersion.

Lack of understanding of design
MMO designers don’t appreciate the power they have. They wind up doing
design-by-numbers, unaware of why things are the way they are, just that things are
that way. Many don’t even know what worked in the past, let alone what could work
in the future. There are several factors contributing to this:
1) Design as art. Game design in general and MMO design in particular is an art
form. It’s not treated as such either by the game industry or by the wider
world. Designers aren’t seen as authors but as content creators. There is little
opportunity to use MMOs to say anything, even though their origins were all
about saying something (Bartle, 2010). If designers aren’t allowed to express
themselves through their creativity, why are they designing?
2) Industry recognition. When designers are formally recognised, it’s usually as
a result of the commercial success of their games. This success may have little
to do with design at all – it could be due to marketing, for example. Brilliant
designs might not be recognised because of sales that are modest for other
reasons (such as dated graphics). There are some very famous game designers
who aren’t actually all that good at design, but their lack of ability is only
apparent to other designers; the rest of the world fetes them.
3) Insufficient study. There is very little academic study of game design. There is
certainly nothing to compare to the depth of study of literature, theatre,
photography and film. This is because games are regarded as low-brow culture
of little importance. Until we get a game version of Cahiers du Cinema, it’s
likely to stay that way, too. Because game design isn’t properly studied, that
means the same mistakes are being made over and over again. This is
particularly true of MMOs, which routinely try out “new ideas” that are
actually old ideas known not to work.

The above aren’t the only problems with MMOs – there are plenty more – but
they’re among the most important. Furthermore, they feed on each other. For
example, many MMOs are released early to recoup the cost of making them, which
means they’re often buggy or missing features, which in turn means players don’t
play them for as long; the developer therefore has to release the first expansion
earlier than planned so as to retain players, which means that it, too, is likely to be
less than perfect.
Knowing what the problems are isn’t the important thing here, though:
knowing what the causes of the problems are is. That’s because if you know the
causes, you can fix the disease, not merely hide the symptoms.

All the above problems can be fixed. Unfortunately, part of the reason they
persist is because those involved are reluctant to take the medicine, either because
they don’t feel the patient is ill or because they believe the proposed cure will make
the patient worse. Nevertheless, changes will eventually be made: MMOs simply
have too much promise for it all to be squandered by turning them into non-MMOs.
What follows are ways and means by which MMO developers and players (and
indeed the wider world) can restore MMOs to their rightful position at the forefront
of computer game design and experience.

The ancestors of today’s MMOs are text MUDs. These began as monolithic
entities, but over time became more modular – partly because of their own “clone
MUD” phenomenon. They developed a layered architecture, enabling radically new
games to be built on existing software. In comparison, today’s MMOs are still very
monolithic; it’s hard to swap out one component and replace it with a wildly different
one while leaving everything else unchanged. A particular manifestation of this is
that too much is directly coded-in that could be scripted.
Taking a more modular approach to MMO systems architecture could reduce
development costs, but its real value lies in how it addresses two other points:
· Clone reduction. Modularisation allows for more variety in MMOs. Text
MUDs exhibited far, far more individual difference than do today’s MMOs
(Bartle, 2007); there’s no reason why today’s MMOs can’t diverge from the
norm too if the costs (and therefore the risks) of experimentation are reduced.
The wider the choice, the better the market.
· Immersion improvement. If different physics modules can be plugged in, the
world can feel more realistic. Text worlds had superior physics to today’s
graphics-heavy MMOs. If existing art and (particularly) animation assets can
be swapped in and out, again, the world can feel more detailed and accrue
more assets. It shouldn’t be as hard as it is for the giant insects developed for
new MMO X to be added to existing MMO Y. Art assets – even ones for dry
versus wet clothes – only need to be created once to be usable indefinitely.
Ultimately, players are paying to be immersed: immerse them!

Size Doesn’t Matter
Today’s MMOs are designed to be vast worlds occupied by teeming masses of
players. However, most of those players will be spending their time in 4-6 person
instances – it’s irrelevant to them how many other players there are in the wider
game. There’s no need for an MMO to be able to support 10,000 simultaneous
players per shard; most players don’t know more than 250 other players anyway.
The two main reasons for having large numbers of players per shard are
marketing (“see how many players we have!”) and immersion (“the world feels more
real if there are more people in it”). The former only works if the people you’re
marketing to want to be anonymous, ineffectual nonentities; the latter is true, but
doesn’t require the people to be real.
Worlds should be made smaller-population and there should be more of them.
Cloud-based servers allow this. If you have 100,000 players, then instead of 10
servers of 10,000 players each, try 400 servers of 250 players each. This would
· Player impact. When you’re one player among 250, you’re more important
than one among 10,000: you’re a somebody, not a nobody. The game is more
fun and retention increases.
· Specialisation. Servers can be set up with different general rules (no PvP,
unrestricted PvP,, immortality, permadeath, whatever). They can even be
leased to guilds who want to play by their own, non-standard rules: roleplaying
is enforced, only magic-user characters are allowed, play-to-win is
permitted, everyone communicates in Latin, ...
· Artificial Intelligence. AI-controlled characters can make the world seem busy
and make your accomplishments feel more appreciated by the population. The
Storybricks work with EverQuest Next is an exciting recent development here.

Remove the Elder Game
Have your MMOs actually end for individual players. Players are playing
MMOs as a journey to self-understanding. When that journey comes to an end –
when they “win” – they will continue to play because the pressure is now off. We
know this because that’s exactly what happened in text MUDs. We only have
interminable elder games today because the business side of MMO development
companies became frightened that if they let players finish a game, the players might
stop playing quicker; in fact, the opposite is true.
The great appeal of Star Wars: the Old Republic was its emphasis on story.
When players reached the end of their character’s story, that was a high point; what
followed was a huge anticlimax. The game descended into the same
raid/PvP/grinding elder game as every other MMO. If, instead of adding more endgame
content, the developers had stuck with their story-first mandate and created
more levelling-game content, people who were playing for story – which most were –
would have kept coming back with different characters to experience those new
stories. As it was, they built up a few alts and then drifted away.
EVE Online has no elder game; or, rather, if it does have an elder game, the
whole game is that elder game. It has a shifting web of alliances from which new
content continually emerges. The fact that corporations can be eliminated and that in
theory it’s possible for one to win adds meaning.If it worked like the typical realmversus-realm elder game and had permanent factions that could never be eliminated,that one, tiny difference would render all conflict ultimately meaningless. An end
provides meaning.
The main advantages of removing the elder game are:
· Retention. Players currently leave an MMO because they become frustrated it
just drags on and on without giving them release. It becomes boring – more
like work than play. If you acknowledge that they’ve won, they have nothing to
prove: some will indeed drift away after a month or two, but many will
continue to play just for the sheer fun of it2. This may seem unlikely, but
experience from text MUDs shows that it actually works: there are people who
are still playing MUD2 over 20 years after they “beat” it.
· Marketing. If your players leave when they like you, they’ll come back for your
next MMO. They won’t think, “oh, yes, their games are OK but eventually I got
bored”, they’ll think “oh, I remember – what an incredible experience! I’m
going to try their games again!”.
2 This assumes that your MMO is actually fun.
· Revenue model. People who pay to skip content or to pass through it quickly
will be able to replay it at a more leisurely pace once their need to “finish” has
been assuaged. This time, they may even pay to skip the content they didn’t
pay to skip last time...
· Immersion. If an ending makes sense then it makes the virtual world more
immersive. An “escape from a prisoner of war camp” game should end when
your character escapes. A “war between two factions” game should allow for
one faction actually to win. The world feels less realistic (and therefore less
immersive) otherwise.

Educate players
People who are playing a casual MMO today will not be playing one 5 years
from today. They will have grokked the concept. Either they’ll be playing other casual
games or they will be playing more sophisticated MMOs. If you want them to play
your MMO, then you need to educate them:
· Teach what MMOs offer. Glorify and reward the positive features that
different types of players find fun. Teach your players what they want from an
MMO, then make your MMOs give them what you taught them to appreciate.
· Celebrate designers. Movie-making used to operate a “studio system”,
whereby a film was associated with a studio rather than its director or actors.
This eventually fell apart because directors were poached by other studios (or
set up their own) and their creative importance became apparent. Film
improved as a genre because of this as it reduced risk: audiences would follow
a favourite director or actor, meaning that even if a film flopped it still
recouped some money. Games are still generally stuck in an equivalent
“developer system”; players think of a “Bioware game” or a “Rockstar game”
or even a “Nintendo game”, but not a “Rob Pardo game”. Until players learn
that game design is important, they’ll follow the studio; this means that if a
game flops, the reputation of the whole studio suffers, rather than that of the

Let designers design
Designers know what the problems are that face MMOs, and often have an
intuition as to how to solve them. These solutions could be far more creative and
acceptable than the ones I’ve outlined here. Unless designers are allowed to design,
MMOs are going to remain stuck in the doldrums.
· Let designers take risks. They may not be able to prove that something will
work, but if they’re not allowed to try it then it never will be proven. Of course,
it may not work, but that’s a known risk and known risks can be managed.
Don’t expect that every game will be a hit; just expect that the games that
succeed will more than compensate for the ones that fail.
· Allow for revolution. MMOs evolve, but sometimes evolution isn’t enough:
revolution is required. The reason that Minecraft was developed
independently wasn’t because the idea of a voxel-based world hadn’t been
thought of by designers at big studios, it was because these deigners weren’t
allowed to explore the idea.
These aren’t the only ways to address these problems – there are others. They are
presented merely as examples of showing what is possible. It may be that larger
studios are too invested in the status quo or too unresponsive to be able to act on
them. However, they will be acted on in time, and virtual worlds will be all the better
as a result.

MMOs are losing sight of what it is that makes them special. As a result, there
is a growing audience of former players who are waiting for a game to appear that
recaptures this essence.
Some studios do recognise the problem and are trying to innovate – The
Secret World and Age of Wushu/Wulin (????) are recent interesting examples.
However, the majority of MMO developers are sleepwalking themselves to obscurity.
Having identified the problems, solutions can be proposed. The ones listed
here are quite radical at times, but nevertheless practical. They are solutions, but
they may not be the only solutions. The reason they were given was primarily to draw
attention to the problems, rather than to persuade people of the individual merits of
particular ways of dealing with those problems.
If MMOs continue as they are, then a few years from now people will wonder
why they were ever considered to be anything special. The first developer able to
remind them will become very successful indeed. If today’s developers wish to
survive, they need to accept that they have a long-term problem and to make difficult
decisions as to how to solve it. If they don’t change, the world will change around


How can it not be a cash grab, when you have a cash shop? A fixed fee versus itemized purchases, the same payment made by all versus a casino system.

While that financial model rules there is no hope for future MMOs. P2P is not a recipe for automatic success, I am a fan of ESO, but it has some big problems. But F2P has become a recipe for near automatic failure. As time has gone on, the invention of ever more invasive cash shop systems like gambling makes the likelihood of failure more certain. There are exceptions, but they are either the likes of Planeside which is a FPSMMO, or Path of Exile which has the best cash shop I have seen.

What has happened to AA should show players that it is not themeparks that are the problem, its the cash shop. The cash shops are driving game design in a way that creates a poor game world and poor gameplay.

We predicted this years ago, it is time to wake up and make a stand for P2P. Without a financial model that is in tune with gaming ethos, online games have become nothing more than a combination of shopping malls and casinos.


Not to sure what the last part of your question is about. But if you want big and are prepared to put up with outdated graphics like WoW I would say Everquest 1/2 or Anarchy Online.


Originally posted by Thestrain
1.) Group Finder is completely broken. - Never used it, I group with guildies. Probably fixed in next patch.
2.) Vet leveling is now 8 times slower - Only between V1 to V3, fixed in next patch.
3.) Enchanting and Alchemy dailies are not working. - Not seen anyone saying this is the case.
4.) Dungeon scaling is inconsistent. - Also not seen anyone saying this is the case.


But keep posting you did at least get it right about Group finder. :D

A decent content update so far, no more no less. I did not vote as I have not seen enough of it to make a considered judgment yet.
Originally posted by Kopogero

The poster above who says MMO's are dying or dead is out of touch imo. The fact a 10 year old MMORPG still manages to pump 1+ billion annually just shows how wrong he is. If anything, the MMO market has evolved thus the standard for today is higher for a MMORPG to be successful.

The market is also captured and created when a great product is brought, something this genre has not seen for a very very very long time. Thx to veteran players like me who's been involved with the genre longer than the most developers today in it it's why the recent products appear to be dying and dead. We refuse to spend our $ on mediocre at best when the previous product is superior.

Companies today need to realize that if you want to see something to fruition you need to put great effort, take big risks, be innovative and invest. MMORPG's are not child's play project. They are the most advanced genre and place for gaming where only the mind is the limit of one can allow the player to do in them.

The fact I'm still involved today with the first MMO ever just shows that big budgets, fancy graphics play very little role to delivering a successful MMORPG.

I do agree that fancy graphics do not make a game and veterans are keeping the good MMOs alive, but that's about as far as we touch base.

Can you tell me of any other form of entertainment where a 10 year old product still reigns supreme? Even in the gaming industry the big FPS franchises have evolved more than WoW and they are notoriously the same thing year after year. That's part of the issue, an individual MMO finds it hard to evolve. But that's not too much of a problem as long as the genre moves forward, but it has not.

The inability of gaming companies to bring out something anywhere near as successful as WoW shows how stagnant the genre is. It is like there being nothing in the artworld, novels, films etc to match something that was made ten years ago. And if you think those examples are not totally fair you would be right. But gaming is entertainment and the inability of the genre to match past successes is damming.

If this was solo gaming we were talking about and it was still making huge amounts of money but individual titles were not raking in the huge profits the big franchises currently get, would you not say there were issues? If nothing, not an indie, not a gaming house production could make as big a splash as a game from ten years ago would you not say there were problems?

And finally you are talking a MMO that is virtually unaffected by the taking over of MMOs by the F2P model, so the issues I have talked about where the financial model is driving the gameplay are not a concern.

I can't believe you guys bothered to reply to codejacks thread. This is the same guy who posted:

"It looks like WoW (cartoonish), it plays like WoW (set piece combat with strictly limited interactions).... it's WoW with an Elder Scrolls skin on it!"

I really don't pay attention to people who think ESO looks like WoW. That's ridiculous, go and get an eye test then come back to the boards.

They don't patch or do content updates they get complaints, they do patch and do content updates they get complaints. Someone has to be to blame, and its definitely not the OP for exceeding his download allowance. :D

They may be having population issues, but to be fair they have implemented megaservers in the way they should be implemented. WS players have been spared the nightmare of server hopping that happens on the like of Aion.
Originally posted by Grimlock22
This thread is still going?  I thought we already established that the theme park is far from dead, and is still arguably the more popular over sandbox.  Now, if you want to discuss the negative impac of cash shops, that should be a whole different discussion.


That's actually what this this is about, I did say sandbox gets no free card here. As I mentioned, the revenue model has changed MMO's to the extent that the revenue model is the game, the gameplay has taken backseat.

Its never a good idea to give free server transfers, anyone in the MMO industry should know that, look at Aion for example. But what puzzles me is they are having megaservers too. That is odd, unless this is just to allow transfer between PvE and PvP, plus between languages.

If WS has named servers like 'Star WIld' PvE Eng EU and another called 'Starry Nights' PvE Eng EU, mega servers would make no sense. So have I got the wrong end of the stick here or not? Are the free transfers between types of server or between individual named servers of the same type?

Originally posted by Pynda

One thing that hasn't been mentioned so far is that cash shops are invading all video games, not just MMORPGs. For example I bought and am playing Assassin's Creed IV right now. But if I want "this" special armor or "that" special sword, I have to pay even more for it in the Uplay store.

So I say, welcome to the New World Order. Whether it's little things like commercial creep on Youtube, or more important considerations like staggering inflation on services like healthcare and education. Screwing people out of every last penny possible is becoming an ever more refined science. And we'll often pay this extortion. And the bean counters know we'll pay it. Because nobody wants to start doing without. Including me.

We are certainly seeing a reflection of the transformation of MMOs by their F2P revenue model elsewhere. I put this down to the increase in digital technology and interconnectivity allowing more charging. Once that gate is open the dlc and cash shops are but the first step in a whole new world of digital life as a cash cow.


"The Cash Shop must never be seen to sell the 'Best Gear' directly."
- But they do, or they sell items which allow you to craft the best gear, like Lotro.


"You're confusing a genre with a payment model. Theme park is a genre, not a payment model."
- I am saying MMO's have changed so much they should be called Cashparks and Cashboxes. MMO's are a genre with a payment model, but the payment model is now so obviously driving the game, that the game has become the payment model.


"If anything cash shops are a much bigger threat to sandboxes, will people still want to compete in the economy or the territorial control game when it may be possible to just buy huge advantages with real money?"
- I agree, but we just had a thread saying MMO's are dead, I did not want to repeat that title. This thread is about how a payment model can redefine a genre.


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