I noticed that lots of the various communities are complaining about a spike in anti-social gamers.  I couldn't help but notice that this perceived spike seems to co-incide with announcement that WoW is bleeding subs.

The effect WoW has had on this genre I once liked is amazing.  First, Blizzard introduces an entire generation to MMORPGS and now, by sheer numbers, the sub-population of undesirables leaving wow can easily equate to the whole population of another game or two.

World of Warcraft has done no good to this genre.  They've dumbed down MMOs to their lowest common demnonator and unleashed a popular culture of simplicity in a game space that was once focused presenting virtual worlds.

I don't blame Blizzard, if they didn't do it someone worse like (insert your hated AAA developer) would have, it was Macdonalds consuming mass-popular culture that changed the direction of MMOs.   The golden age of MMOs was when nerds like me participated in an ongoing virtual reality and were happy to pay $15 a month to do it. 

MMOs stopped being these realities when they went mass consumer.  When they went mass consumer they turned into the madness that is best expressed by looking at the main page of this site.

I've been taught when someone you dont know offers you something for free there is a string somewhere.

I read the FAQ for Neverwinter, seemed like a decent enough game to try out.  The problem I have is on their main FAQ they state the game is free and provide no details about the strings.

I come where and I read about their stupid over priced item store.  Developers should offer two tiered services. One service for the sucker born every minute and the other service so people who just want to buy a dam game and play it.

Cryptic is off my list because they cant clearly and honestly tell me how much a decent experience is going to cost.

Nope, nothing is free.

I dont say this often but honestly, if i were a woman I'd seriously consider visiting this site again.  Its one thing to have a bit of scantily clad women on the box art.  This Scarlet Blade thing is just over the top.

But its not like this is the most 'even' place to express a free opinion. $$$$$$ Rules right?

I went back within the last year.  Content trumps graphics for me and I've played a lot of UO on various servers over the years.

The problem with the modern day UO is WAY over itemization.  I must say I enjoyed vanq/power/force might days for the gear.  Now there are all these crazy stats and I dunno it just turned into an items game.

They also ranomized the ore spawns which is ok but a dumb idea after a decade.  Add the fact they roasted their own backups and set everyone bakc a few weeks and even EA has to be a bit suprised people still pay.

The best kept secret on the internet.  We need more games like ‘The Secret World’.

I don’t know if it’s the conspiracy buff in me or the old school feel that this game has with its mobs, or it’s the music score which never gets turned off…..but I’m here to share the best kept secret on the internet.  A game like ‘The Secret World’ is exactly what I needed to return to the old school immersive environments of old.

 Its so good I don’t even play SC2 much right now.

I’m not going to write an essay on how awesome I find this game.  I’m 38 years old, I loved Eq1 and UO and hated pretty much everything since.  This game takes me back to my roots.  In a couple sentences:

Its like GW2 but with a M rating.  A highly immersive, interactive world with story lines.  Except this game is less childish than ¾ of the games out there.  There are no levels, it’s a skill system.  You are not bound to any one class of skills and basically are the composite of two classes at all times.  What you load up in your deck is entirely up to you.  The quests are highly awesome and the game is full of ‘zelda like’ puzzles…..you even need to think! I’m not kidding, you can’t just play the game on autopilot and have it all fed to you.

Check it out, seriously

Originally posted by daltanious

Originally posted by Rekindle

 

1.  Paul Sage's video released back at the beginning of the announcement. Immediately, the video did not feel like a  hype video but a damage control video.  Nothing in the video convinced me that this would by a vision i could share in as an ESO.

 

2.  The cinematic trailer.  You wasted your money on a generic cinematic trailer.  The cinematic trailer for Ultima ONline is awesome but says/shows nothing about the game.  I personally feel fans would have been better served by a good game play video.  I think it should be clear what players want to see.  The fact you release this instead speaks volumes about the coming ineptedtude.

3.  Your sell out attitude.  Morrowind was revolutionary, Oblivion was decent, Skyrim (well, lets not talk about the pc verson).  This online game does not stand out, its not distinctive and nothing, absoutely nothing, about it is innovative.

4. What really seems to be happening here is someone has taken a box'd mmo and tryed to skin it as Elder scrolls.  I'm so sick of this and its why i only play Eve now.  They design the game then slap the IP on? Seriously?   This is suposed to be Elder Scrolls.  More generic crap with no thought put into creative character progression.   More levels? Seriously?  this has to be the new slogan for the game.

5.  I usually don't go out on the negative limb but from everything I see so far...The Elder Scrolls Online is off to a bad start and the company that you have implementing your generic MMO is completely and utterly releasing a generic mmo.

6.  This is not a vision of Elder Scrolls I can get behind.

 

You could go on treasure hunts and drop things on the ground in Ultima since launch, You of all people should have know Paul.

 

What a snooze fest!

Main problem with any game are people that ask "Why this game was/will be a major disappointment for me". If this will be your major disappointment .. great .. leave and do not return and do not bother all the rest. People like you with attitude like yours are being failures of many could be good games. Period.

Players who have been around long enough to experience various phases of the (de-) evolution of this Genre have hi expectations. 

Honestly, i'm glad that there are a lot of people out there that can find enjoyment with the current crop of mmos.  Frankly, the farce this genre has turned into makes me ill.  The item shops, the same tired old game play over and over.

Forgive an experienced gamer when they look towards a studio (and their partners) for something a bit more innovation and RGP pure.  For years tehre were a bunch of us waiting for TESO to come and be TES Online.

Instead we're getting WoW in TES clothing.

Should I be "happy"?  Should I not voice my opinion on the subject? I'm pretty sure I'm not offending anyone by talking about the game (there are lots of sensitives on these forums).  Maybe you're the one who should leave my thread and let me talk about why I think this game has problems.  There are lots of forums  you can go and talk about how lovely the game is.

Pure TES players should be let down by this anmd if they are going for a bite of the WoW pie then shame on them for copying/selling out.

And yes Skyrim on the PC was nothing more then a complete port from teh xbox. the UI is clunky and terrible on a PC.  And also, on a pc Skyrim had signifcant performance issues.  Again, my expectations are different than yours.  That does not mean someone should  go away.

Originally posted by Fearum

 Sounds like your on the hipster train being against anything that goes big for no reason at all besides it going big. All I see is someone with doomsday opinions on mmo's in general. You have some litterbox games coming down the pipe, so hang in there little buddy. Keep your head up.

I have to be honest, I don't know WTF a hipster is.

If you have never camped the Princess at Kedge keep or ran from a train in Castlemistoor you probabaly can't relate to what is lacking in modern MMOs.

In early 2000 when I picked up UO I felt like I could make a bigger impact on the world than any game since ('cept maybe Eve ).  If Paul Sage didn't want to make another Wow clone we would have been able to run along the table and smash the wine bottles once a day or something.  If Paul Sage wanted to make a decent TESO then they would have made a game much more like a skill system rather than a level system.

All indications are this is a re-hued MMO of some sorts with TESO stuff spattered in.

Honestly. I know a lot of you like Wow and SWOTR and themepark games and many of you can't even fathom a game that doens't have a ! and quest hubs, but some of us were hoping and expecting more.

Originally posted by Betaguy

Originally posted by HeroEvermore

As much as you and I love the Elder scrolls franchise (especially morrowind) don't treat this game like the IP is.

This is just another MMO: That is what i tell myself. SO if anything does amaze me when i get to actually PLAY the game and FEEL how it works then its all happy smiles here. If it's mediocre and not my thing. Oh well, im certainly used to that these days.

As to the person who says Skyrim is the best elder scrolls game. I would say most disagree with that. Morrowind has the cult following that skyrim will never reach.

 Skyrim has sold the most copies and is most replayed... a cult of followers is puny in size for morrowwind.  The game is dated and severly lacking in comparison.  Once again I will say "Skyrim is the best ES game to date" facts prove it. To each is thier own though... Hope to see you in game if you choose wisely.

Yeah, i think that is the problem.  Once TES franchise went big it went ala Walmart /MacDonalds.  Are you suggesting that mass appeal makes a good game?  I know a good game when I see it. I  know a bad resturant when I see it.  TES is heading towards generics and generics what they're gonna get.

Protip Betaguy, if you want to make a point and not sound like you're talking down to people in their own freaking threads: don't call them "bub".

1.  Paul Sage's video released back at the beginning of the announcement. Immediately, the video did not feel like a  hype video but a damage control video.  Nothing in the video convinced me that this would by a vision i could share in as an ESO.

2.  The cinematic trailer.  You wasted your money on a generic cinematic trailer.  The cinematic trailer for Ultima ONline is awesome but says/shows nothing about the game.  I personally feel fans would have been better served by a good game play video.  I think it should be clear what players want to see.  The fact you release this instead speaks volumes about the coming ineptedtude.

3.  Your sell out attitude.  Morrowind was revolutionary, Oblivion was decent, Skyrim (well, lets not talk about the pc verson).  This online game does not stand out, its not distinctive and nothing, absoutely nothing, about it is innovative.

4. What really seems to be happening here is someone has taken a box'd mmo and tryed to skin it as Elder scrolls.  I'm so sick of this and its why i only play Eve now.  They design the game then slap the IP on? Seriously?   This is suposed to be Elder Scrolls.  More generic crap with no thought put into creative character progression.   More levels? Seriously?  this has to be the new slogan for the game.

5.  I usually don't go out on the negative limb but from everything I see so far...The Elder Scrolls Online is off to a bad start and the company that you have implementing your generic MMO is completely and utterly releasing a generic mmo.

6.  This is not a vision of Elder Scrolls I can get behind.

You could go on treasure hunts and drop things on the ground in Ultima since launch, You of all people should have know Paul.

What a snooze fest!

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Rekindle

i agree with the OP mainly but its a dead horse.  THe worst thing that ever happened to this genre is this new crop of player.

 

This F2P model is actually a symtom of a much larger issue.  Society is rotting from the inside out and mass appeal of the F2p model is an indicator.

 

 

Feel free to quit society and go live in the mountains.

We are talking about games .. entertainment products. Larger issue??? LOL. There is nothing wrong with whales subsidizing a majority of players to play free games. Everything is optional, and no one holds a gun to anyone's head.

Don't like it. Don't play. It is that simple.

Actually we're not talking about games or just entertainment products. The concept of that we were talking about games went out the door when the f2p pandoras box was opened.  No longer are game makers selling a service that has with it attached a fee. 

F2P item shops change what the developers are selling.  Instead of selling a concise product they are using item shops to hone in on human behaviour, chiefly addiction.  Those item collection quests that used to be a fun distraction now become a vechicle for said game developer to pray on those foolish enough to shell out way more money than had there been a simply monthly fee.

As for the notion that if I don't like it don't play I'm not sure what it has to do with the larger issue.  I believed the dicussion to be about the longevity of the industry with a bit of retrospect tied in.  My own disposition to the model is rather moot.  The f2p path is the wrong way but its the way things are going.

Game makers are now merchants of OCD and the peddlers of addiction based services.

How does this tie in with the world at large? Greed. 

Had they stuck with their fee based systems and offered a simple pay as you go service we could be talking about other things.  But the same interests that have polluted your food, your water and your mind have also infiltrated your favorite pass time too. The F2p market is an indicator of a much greater problem indeed.

i agree with the OP mainly but its a dead horse.  THe worst thing that ever happened to this genre is this new crop of player.

This F2P model is actually a symtom of a much larger issue.  Society is rotting from the inside out and mass appeal of the F2p model is an indicator.

• Free to play and item shops
• Quest hubs
• Quest GPS
• Collections, god the modern gamer loves to collect things
• Powerful starter gear and powerful stat gear all the way through
• Relatively simple game play.

op is right but there are 10:1 newbs who prefer the new games over the old ones.  Obviously.  MMO developers are not failing at their goal which is to make money.  Do you think any of them give a rat's ass about imersion or true sandbox?

They are looking for the ape that will click on the button in the item shop everything else is just sheep's clothing.  The original game makers had profit in mind but they hadn't refined it to a science.

All the modern games have MASS APPEAL which means for every 1 of us old timers who know what we're talking about from the old days there are 10 newbs who simply LOVE the way things are unfolding.

The problem is not with the games I'm afraid.  1 you got too old, 2 society frankly, is too stupid on the whole.

this is great. I have recently returned and will be in touch.

Originally posted by Destai

Originally posted by RebelScum99

Originally posted by Uhwop

 

They're going to "disguise" the mundaine quests like kill 10 rats, and they incorporate disguising quests a lot.TESO is yet another quest grinder to level to endgame, to then raid and do PvP.  Same old same old.

 

And yet when GW2 does this same exact thing, everyone pats ArenaNet on the back for it.  All they are doing is disguising mundane quests in the form of dynamic events, which are really just quest chains that are triggered by proximity.  

Short of getting rid of quests altogether, there is no way to improve questing except to "disguise" it or present it in a different way.   Any attempt to do that, whether it's GW2's dynamic quest chains, or TESO's take on questing, is a good thing.

Seems like people will always find a way to complain about something. 

 

 

Yeah it's odd that people would complain about a roleplaying game having quests. Certainly there are ways to improve upon their delivery - something both GW2 and ESO are striving for - but those features will exist because quests are fundamental to the gamestyle.

Collecting 10 boar snoats is not a quest. Collecting pelts are not quests. Its task driven game play and its a tired old mechanic.  The problem we have here is what a "good" mmorpg is differs from player to player.

If I could have Everquest 1 or UO 1999- 2001 ish with newer graphics I'd probably never look for a new game.  However, we have an entire WoW generation of players who identify with that genre who can't possibly fathom a game that doesn't have WoW-based mechanics.  This group will win because they are the majority.

Its just unfortunate that the developers of this game have , by all apparent measures, chosen this route. I guess its logical since they are going for mass appeal.  Its just some of us held out hope that this would be a Elder scrolls online game not WoW reskinned which is what I can  guarentee you what we're going to get.

Originally posted by Qallidexz

Originally posted by Rekindle

ps. the screens from the Hero Engine look nothing like the TES games I've played and as generic as generic gets.

F-

You didn't see any screens from the HeroEngine, because they didn't use the HeroEngine to make the game.

They use they're own internal engine built specifically for ESO. :) And the graphics look great.

just read that, i stand corrected on the hero engine comment. Some of the early screens look pretty dam generic nonetheless.

Originally posted by jtcgs

Originally posted by Qallidexz

Paul was focusing more on the single-player ES aspect of the game, rather than the MMO aspect... likely to try to quell the onslaught of criticism that came from the ES SPRPG crowd complaining that the MMO wouldn't be SPRPG enough for them. But of couse, there is certainly reasons to group up as well. It's hard to take a keep, a castle, or even a farm by yourself, as it's also hard to do most dungeons by yourself.

You'll still have to group up to enjoy certain aspects of the game, but there's a solo aspect you can enjoy also.

P.S: As a footnote, I agree that Rifts sucked.

And Paul seems to be ignoring that many fans are using SWTOR as an example of WHY we dont want TES bastardized.

The only MMORPG that worked as a port from a stand alone RPG was Ultima Online and that is due to Ultima Online basiaclly being Ultima 7-8 ONLINE. The world was basically just ported over....into a larger online world that everyone could play in at the same time.

There were no massive changes to the way the game played...even the combat felt the same only with more attack options.

All Paul did here is confirm more fears that TESO is going to be another SWTOR...a game that bastardized its single player predecessors by trying to be more than what it is.

The only real options the game has is to be either

A: A really bad MMO trying to stay true to the TES games.

B: An MMO that is TES in name only.

C: A game that does neither right.

That cant be true you say? Really? Then tell me why I was just online playing Skyrim with a multi-player mod a few hours ago? Oh yeah, because I already have a TES game that is online...and yes, a few mods making dungeons with group based difficulty as well as one adding bosses.

If I can already play a TES game online, no MMO has a chance to match it. Especially one being made by people that have nothing to do with the TES series other than being owned by the same corporattion out for a quick buck.

i vote for C. TESO will be a failure by all measures. The daftness of the devs is clear already.

TESO's announcement will be remembered as a PR failure and the game will shine in the light for nano second just before it falls in line with all the other games exactly like it.

ps. the screens from the Hero Engine look nothing like the TES games I've played and as generic as generic gets.

F-

Originally posted by mindw0rk

Honestly I dont feel sorry for ToR. Bioware had all the power and resources to make a huge splash in MMO genre. And what we've got? Another "same old shit" theme park? Now TES Online going same path.

I want all those big companies who choose cloned template  for their big MMOs to fail miserably. Maybe then we'll see some good experiments and genre moving forward

me too

I share the same feeling that seems to be on the rise in the community.  There is a growing discourse for the themepark genre. 

Many would call it the WoW burn out effect.  I supose its an accurate enough depiction of the growing discourse for themepark games.  The thing is, for some of us, we've had this feeling for a long time now.  It seems now and only now that the community as a whole is catching up with the general notion that themepark style, WoW inspired games don't have a long shelf life.

I've asked myself for some time now how the industry could support such a wide selection of these style games and I've come to a pretty simple conclusion: we are expendable as consumers because there are vastly more people who support these games than people who express frustrations.

In the old days EQ used to brag about having half a million subs.  Now if a game has half a million subs it can be deemed an absolute failure.  I'm no stats guy but for every 1 player who grows weary of the action bar, click fest WoW styled games there are 10 who would happily buy it.

In fact, having gone the retro route now for a few months I have found that, from a virtual world perspective, games have vastly de-evolved from the first generation.

In gen 1 developers were aiming to create a virtual reality where players and their avatars had a dependance on one another.  All the game developers care about now is the immediate profits associated with mass appeal.

My best advice to you is to keep talking about your likes and dislikes but to a certain point we need to get over ourselves because until an open source project comes along the industry will continue to pump out steaming piles of poo because thats what the masses (remember 10:1) want. 

The latest example of a company selling out and cashing in is the The Elder Scrolls Online project, which has all the halmarks of what I' was just talking about (ps I didn't think Skyrim was all that great a game compared to Morrowind anyway).