All Posts by rigghawk

This is sad, because even though I am diametrically opposed to Dan in how PVP should be, I agree with his thesis to a certain extent that it is the developers fault.

I won't call Dan names cuz he or people like him are the reason I wasted $50 on Lineage II. I was constantly getting grief killed by people way higher level than me, and twinked out to the max.  It was simply no fun trying to establish a character.  So I quit, kissing my $50 goodbye.  Did it have to be that way?  Is there another way?  Would it be difficult to implement?  The answers my friend are No, Yes, and not that hard.

What are the three biggest griefing issues?  1. Camping starter zones
                                                             2. camping bodies
                                                             3. Grief kills by higher level characters.

All of these issues are adressable by coding (Heck, any issue is).  The solutions are:
                                                            1. making starter zones non-pvp areas
                                                            2. giving a "timeout period" of 1-2 min for people coming out of death
                                                                in which that player may not pvp or be pvp'd
                                                            3. Making it impossible for players to initiate pvp with another                                                                             character more than a few levels different from their own. (this                                                                     would vary by game.

None of these issues is insurmountable nor difficult to fix.  That developers don't, indicates that they don't want to, which makes me wonder why, considering how some games with broken pvp systems have simply died or never got off the ground (so to speak).  Go figure, I thought this was a business. 

I like a good pvp fight, and by good I mean challenging.  Getting the drop on someone 10 levels lower than me, whose back is turned, is well...meaningless.

So crappy logic Dan, but a really good point.  It is the developers fault to a certain degree.  But  to say your juvenile behaviour is all thier fault is  like saying to a gun manufacturer "the reason I shot billy joe is because you made that gun".  That logic doesnt stand up in court, and neither does your story.

Rigghawk

LOL
  This is somewhat silly, reminds me of a debate for the sake of having a debate over a non-issue.  PVP is meaningless in WOW, (other than for the fun of a good fight).  One side cannot "control" territory over precious rescources, it doesnt affect the storyline, and you can't even loot the fallen.  I've never been huge on PVP (because mostly there is no point, and because it is almost always poorly done), yet I do enjoy a little PVP action occasionally for the adrenaline rush.  PVP battle is always the most challenging and thereby the most exciting kind of battle in a game environment.  However except for a few games, its almost never implemented well.  Anarchy Online gets props for sucessfully implenting PVP combat, that had meaning and never involved ganking.  Games that implement unlimited PVP are rarely very successful as the uncontrolled ganking drives away most potential new players.

Is PVP combat "ruining" WOW? Hardly, most of the servers are PVE!. 

As usual the wrong question is being asked. 

The real question is "How do you improve WOW PVP without ruining the game for everyone?"  Personally I wish every world had some contested zone's, with quests crucial to both sides within", I would focus on areas for characters level 30+. Theres something wrong when I go to searing gorge on my PVE server and the Horde and alliance flight points are like 100 feet apart.

Rigghawk

I played the game for about 3 months, my highest level character was 8, though i must have tried 10 different characters.  I recently cancelled.

In general I have to agree with with G's overall review.  To be fair to Turbine, it isnt so much that there is a lack of content, but that the community (MMORPG community), tends to be grind orientated, how do I get to uber level fastest.  In a certain sense, thats the american way, and to be sure, the games have trained people to play that way. As a result, a lot of the DDO content is simply being ignored by the majority of the players, which means in a group mandated game, that even if you want to do the rest of the content, its nearly impossible to do it with a PUG (pick up group).

G also failed to mention the built in voice chat, which I think is very nice, and actually adds to the RP part of the game.  One of the things I loved about PNP DND was the bs sessions going on during the sessions which often had little to do with the characters were doing.  The voice chat brought that back for me. 

I would also note that turbine is adding more solo content with each patch, and in general more content period. This is part of what you pay for with monthly fees and there is some value in that.

However, I have to agree strongly with G's assessment that instances do not an MMORPG make.  This could have been offset some with a server wide chat channel(s).  I also feel that a few areas that you can go and hunt in with random spawns could have added immensly to the game (can you say multiple cities with a real world in between).

Given the general skew of scores from MMORPG.com in the past, I would say that anything below a 7 is a game with serious flaws, and simply put this isnt a bad game.  It's very well done, and deserves a decent score.  it came out solid and ready to play, they worked through a few issues in the first few weeks, and since then down time has been minimal.  The AI is simply amazing and way better than any other game I can think of.  Pets rarely get stuck or lost.  Every class is fun to play and meaningful in the game.  I mean how many games can you say all of those things of. 

Having said all that, I couldnt play more that 3 months due to the limitations.  I only got to explore maybe 30% of the content, even though I would have like to have done much more.  NPC henchman like in Guild wars would have made this game so much better for me (lets face it, DnD was the game that INVENTED henchman). 

Turbine has made some crucial decisions that have flawed a great game engine and system with some fantastic content.  It's fixable, lets see if they figure it out.


Wrigghawk

Uggh, classic case of mis-identifying the problem, and then proposing a fix that doesnt address the real problem. Nathan, you should consider a career in education. (thats a slam on our education system not you by the way)

The character advancement or develpment process does not creates the grind. Its the adventure process. That is too say, what people abhored was going out and killing 5000 creatures of a certain level to advance. After the 20th or so it got boring. The problem was in fleshing out the world and providing fun and varied ways to gain experience. WOW and other games have made some advancement in this area. The well developed quest system in WOW (even though some of the quests were grind style quests) was a major contributer to its success IMHO.

Its funny you mentioned D&D so much, as DDO (D&D Online) is in fact the dungeons and dragons system, and there is very little grind. The game is full of innovative and challenging quests, with traps and puzzles, and lots of fighting to boot. But fighting towards a goal, and you have to party up to acccomplish these missions, there is no soloing most of them. Some mission areas can only be accessed by a wizard, others by thieves, some by fighters, some by clerics. Its wonderful! Grind, what grind? and this is the very game system you are using as the basis for your supposed problem.

Truth is, the problem always was and always will be content, not the character design system. Certain crafting systems excerbated the problem as well, and I know you know what/who I mean.

Different character design systems whether level based or skill based or other, are desireable IMHO as they provide variety in gaming, but none of them are a solution to a grind based game. The solution to that is excellent and creative content and a well rounded adventure dossier.

Thanks for starting another good thread.

Rigghawk

I appreciate that the author has taken on a tough topic, and we would all like to see the things that we personally like the best in our "dream game". The author clearly enjoys FPS and PVP. I don't, nor do many players. However, wonderfully the MMORPG market is very full, and many options are currently available and many more are coming.

It's amazing how reality can ruin our imagination. Like the author, I would have agreed that in game voice chat should have been implemented a long time ago. Then I got to experience it in DDO Beta. Wow, what a lot of foul mouthed people are out there. I have young children in the house, and that language coming over the speakers was a major drag (had to turn it off almost immediately). Besides the childern aspect, to tell you the truth I dont want to hear it either, and it certainly doesnt enhance my roleplaying experience! There is never gonna be a language filter for voice chat, and other than playing only with close friends who you can trust to control thier language, the drawback (foul language) wasnt worth the gain.

I think PVP games are out there (take guild wars for instance) and more are coming and yet it isn't necessary to make an MMORPG enjoyable. I certainly think the twin concepts of permadeath and PVP do not belong together (after playing for 3 months to develop my lvl 30 character, I am ganked 10 times rapidly by a level 40 character (who camps my corpse) and bam I permadead! Yea, thats a game I'm looking forward to playing.

There are better solutions than permadeath. One I've talked about forever, is simply an escalating death penalty. (the more often you die, the more severe death penalty you build up). Ie. die to much and you'll be semi'permanantly playing with DP. (should result in moderate skill penalties). City of Heroes was like this for awhile, and the player base complained so much the developers reduced the death penalty. This leads me to an important conclusion. It's a game! It's supposed to be fun, when it stops being fun people will stop playing (and paying). While these ideas can increase the challenge, its a very fine line to cross from challenging to ouch! this sucks. For players of different skill levels that line lands in entirely different spots. How do you deal with this? Realistically you can't which is why developers haven't gone there. Not because they don't think its a good idea, but because they can't figure out how to do it effectively without alienating a large portion of thier player base. When you figure it out, you let me know, I'll be happy to sell the idea.

Personally I'm looking forward to Fallen Earth and I'll be Playing DDO and Conan over the next year to fill the time until it comes out.

Rigghawk

Although I love the article series idea, and although the author has chosen a topic near and dear to my heart, I dont necessarily agree with his opinions. I think the MMORPG market is in many ways similar to the movie market. Some movies are made for pure escapist fun, and no one expects them to win any major awards or to achieve critical success, and yet millions enjoy them for what they are (WOW). Other movies are made simply to be different from all the rest or to identify with a very specific market (City of Heroes), and some try to be good at everying (mass market appeal, good story, clever special effects, ie Conan). They dont always achieve what they set out to do...

I think the author tends to oversimplify the market, and at where it is going today. I see a great diversity coming onto the market in the next 18 months, not only in the types of worlds, but also how characters are developed. I am encouraged.

I do agree heartily that the reason I've quit most games is the inevitable grind. One of the things I enjoyed about the original Asherons Call, was although there was some grinding involved, as the game developed the developers continually added quest content and the endgame kept getting exended up to higher and higher levels. The game grew. That game was also the best at building player relationships via the allegiance system of any MMORPG I've played before or since. (and I've played more than my fair share).

I also think that the tendency of games to increase character power exponentially as the levels increase is a mistake. There should be a steady progression, but one way to limit ganking and improve PVP would be to build a system where although higher level characters are better than lower levels, not exponentially so. So that a group of first level characters massed up would seriously threaten the toughest character in the game.

It is clear to me the author enjoys PVP (as I have in certain games) yet very few games have sucessfully integrated PVP as a realistic storyline element or as a meaningful strategic issue. (RF Online is attempting to do so). I have been ganked repeatedly in games like Lineage II and others on my first day in the game as a starter character. I have to tell you how unfun that was, and that's why lineage II got very few of my dollars. In general, I want PVP to be part of the storyline, meaningful to partake in, and that safe areas be provided for characters to grow in, or level up in (behind the battle lines). Anarchy Online has a meaningful PVP system and yet Lag is/was a huge issue for largescale battles. It is as far as I know going to be a problem for any game system to overcome.

In conclusion, I think this is a growing field, and that real competition is beginning to arise which will be to the benefit of players everywhere. I am hopeful that the developers understand we not only want choice, we want quality as well. I want all my games to have a great selection of looks for avatars, to incoporate a combat system that has some variety to it (more than 2 attack motions), a storyline driven quest system which evolves, and a meaningful PVP system if you can manage it please. Make me want to PVP. Give me a storyline driven, reason to take a side and fight for it.

Rigghawk

Im on my third day of the 10 day preview, and I am a long time DND player (PNP and computer). Like the author I like instancing for the main quests, and I find it wonderful for that purpose. However, I find the lack of a world to adventure in sad.

DND has always been about more than dungeons, wandering monster encounters, searching for rare components, tracking down evil bandits etc..) DDO has got a small portion of the overall DND experience right.

I am also dissapointed in the character creation graphics. Scaling in both size and body build is a definite must in a third generation MMORPG. 2 year old games have this technology in them (SWG).

My major gripes are two fold. I find it highly likely that twinking of low level characters will be a common occurance by the time this game is 1 month or 2 months old. This will lower the challenge of the game for players who dont join initially dramatically. Higher level equipment needs to have player level limits attached to its use to maintain game balance. This is not turbines first game, and in fact AC2 incorporated this feature on a large scale. I realize this is not a DND thing, but in PNP you had a DM who could tightly control the economy. This is as necessary to an online game of this type, as other adjustments turbine has made.

I also feel that turbine has made several changes to the game to try to deal with the realtime interactive combat environment. Some change was obviously necessary, and yet I disagree with almost all of the ways, turbine chose to solve the issues.

On the hitpoint issue: Turbine should have scaled the hitpoints proportionally rather than add a bonus to all classes equally. Ie multiply the PNP standaards by 2 or 3 rather than add 25. This would have preserved the fighter/barbarian advantage, and made mages dangerously weak as they have always been. Clerics would have also been less effective than fighters as is intended by the game design.

On the spellpoint issue: Wrong solution, it would have been much better to multiply the allowed number of spells by a factor and preserve the requirement for wizards to and clerics to select thier spells ahead of time or at rest periods. This would have preserved not only the feel of the game, but helped overall
game balance as well.

I could go on and on, and I dont believe that I'm the final word or anything, but I just think it could have been done a lot better. I also know that a lot of this was suggested by the community and turbine nixed a lot of good ideas early on. Its their franchise and therefore there right, but that doesnt mean its gonna
sell either.

Now I like the clever AI for combat, the fact that they got lots of weapon choices in game. Overall I am impressed by the combat system. I also find the quests that I've done so far, well done, and like the author I really like the voice overs. I am impressed by the inclusion of the voice system in the game from start.

If i could summarize in short I would say, Its a game based on DND...sorta. It has the potential to be fun to play, but only for a short time. The graphics are good but limited during character creation. I agree with several posters in that without major revisions and additions it will be in poor financial shape sooner rather than later. I predict that the need to have enough people in an area to be able to get a party together with will compete with lag as a serious game issue. (ie out of 200 people in an area, you may find enough people to form a group for the quest you want to do in a relatively short while, however if turbine allows that many people in one part of town, lag is definitely an issue.) When you do the initial beta test, the number of people is limited and they are all doing the same quests at the same time (or nearly) and finding people for quests is easy. Now, even with the town areas so loaded with people its laggy, it is difficult to find a party of 5 to quest with. It is very clear to me now why Guildwars world is set up the way it is. The game self sorts players into different towns by level (by dint that you have to be of a certain level and finish a quest area to get to each of the higher level areas) It makes it very easy find people doing the same quests. On top of that they have NPC henchman available to fill out parties. Henchman are by the way a DND staple, and turbine should have definitely considered adding them into the game to enhance gameplay and to help reduce dead time between quests looking for party members. People rarely want to pay to stand around in a game. Several MMORPG's have struggled with this issue, Turbine dropped the ball here severely. Oh well, good businesses thrive, bad businesses go out of business.

Rigghawk

Calm down folks, were all players here...... well most of us. You know, I reread the article after reading through the posts, and I'll admit I think it was insulting to the majority of gamers. Perhaps the presentation had disclaimers but the article didn't mention any. I myself rarely participate in game boards anymore because the vocal minority of idiots overwhelms the thoughtful majority (somewhat like real life politics.. lol).

I can imagine that as a Dev, it would be hard not to come to the conclusion that the majority of players are 12-16 year olds who need to work on thier spelling. In my experience however, the average player in many MMORPG's is over the age of 20, and players over the age of 30 are not uncommon. I myself have been playing them for 7 years? and am almost 42. These older players are often quiet, polite, and thoughtful on the boards. Unfortunately, like me, the vehement drivel usually drives them away.

The dev's cleverly made thier point, unfortunately they made it in a demeaning and insulting fashion. The comparison to King, wasn't equitable. Books are not MMORPG's. You dont pay monthly for the right to re-read a book. Players in MMORPG's do. Readers dont participate in growing a storyline as it's being written. Players in MMORPG's do. King has never asked his fans to help him find the errors in his books, nor does he charge them for the privelege of finding them for him. Players in MMORPG's have that "privilege". Books dont crash, get rolled-back, or go out of business just as your getting to the good part.

In short, rather than admitting that communication between dev's and players has historically been lacking from both sides, and coming up with clever idea to block rants (we can block spam email, but we cant block rants on boards) they took pot shots at the community in order to deflect the attention from themselves.

It was an effort worthy of the democratic national committee, and yet, a few caught on.

Once again, my motto.. Lets just be nice to one another eh?

Its nice that they can poke fun at themselves. Unfortunately, hidden in the stalks of idiocy that most rants represent, some grains of truth can be found. This parody reflects the trend.

Why do games get released before they are ready? ie. anarchy online and a host of successors. We know it can be done better, for example City of Heroes and World of Warcraft Published fairly bug free, and with plenty of enjoyable content. More successes, less failures would be nice. If your intent is to have a 6 month beta test after release, fine, just dont charge me a monthly fee during that period.

Why do old games cost almost as much as new ones? I actually understand the answer, but it would be nice if the community published it once in a while, perhaps a sticky on thier boards. (this is that whole communication with the community thing). Some games do a fair job at this, some a poor, nobody in my experience has ever done an excellent job. I suspect it is a cost issue.....lol.

The market is flooded with fantasy games, and its good to see some new types hit the market with some other new sci-fi games enroute. I'd love to see a sci-fi game with a robust quest system, millions of character avatar options (aka city of heroes), lots of character options, loads of cool toys, and lots of action.
(I've got my eyes on a couple, but a multitude of avatar options seems to be a common lacking). (yes I played star wars galaxies in the beginning (ok, pun intended), but I became quickly disenchanted with the grind. Some actual quests, with goals, obstacles, and meaningful rewards, would have gone a long way towards making the game more enjoyable. No, I haven't been back, sorry... thats the nature of the beast, you get your chance to hook me, fail and I'm gone to try the next great thing. No, I'm not sorry, it's a business, your selling, I'm buying, and if I dont like your product I'm gone. Oh, and I'll probably tell my friends too. On the plus side, if its good, I stay and pay, and tell all my friends to join up and pay too.

Anyhow, thanks for the games, I've had a lot and continue to have a lot of fun. I'm thankful for the variety. Keep em coming and I'll keep trying em. Sooner or later we'll find a winner. (Winner of the month is City of Heroes, which I'm back to playing) I played and liked guild wars, but it was too fast to max a character. (more levels please!)

Later Players...