Who really cares if the WwW is instanced or not?

It certainly isn't open world PVP.

However that's not a bad thing, open world PVP would never work in a game like GW2 with Dynamic Events, instant teleporting, it would also have to be FFA due to the lack of factions, and the lack of consequences for dying would make it a gankfest.

Originally posted by William12

Never read a more biased article in my life.  It's obvious hes an EA hater.  

 

Battlefield 3 did very well considering it is the 1st one that was on all platforms at release.   Console gamers didn't even know what Battlefield 1 and 2 were about it was a PC FPS for the most part.   

Also if activision is doing so great why is the majority stock holder who owns 61% of it selling it ?

Indeed, Battlefield 3 did very well.

So well that Dice is already developing BF 4... 1 year layer.

Get ready to buy the same game every year, the new COD with yearly releases, only that now EA will drive it to the ground and kill another great franchise, because unlike Activision, they really don't know what they are doing.

It's an article in Forbes... ea hater? seriously?

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Garvon3

This isn't a discussion about immersion, it's about socializing. And no, instancing is insanely immersion breaking.

In LotRO, running around, finding a cave, getting a message "You cannot enter here without the right quest." Yeah, immersion!

In a virtual world full of adventurers it makes sense for other people to be in dungeons.

It actually kinda doesn't make sense.

People in novels or movies don't just stumble upon a bunch of other tourists when they explore dungeons/ruins/caves/etc.

Novels or movies....

We are talking about MMOs, virtual worlds.

This is going to be a tough pill to swallow for the people on this forum who only measure the quality of a game by it's profit margin or mainstream appeal, is the game is good? who cares, this is just a bussines!

How sad, Bioware sold their soul, they made the most dumbed down game in the history of the genre trying to appeal to casuals and wow players...

And now EvE, a niche hardcore FFA PVP game with about 434543534xtimes more complexity and 1/8 of it's budget now has more subsribers.

And if SWTOR still has 400k+ subs, just give it 1 month or 2, the mass exodus never stops.

Originally posted by cronius77

lol eve may be a success but its also listed as the worst community of mmorpgs currently with one of the worst companies. Just a couple of months ago some of these same posters were bashing eve because that idiot fan meet where that player actted like a moron and hurt some guys feelings getting him banned or whatever. Also on these boards regularly you have people saying how eve is just a gank fest for new players whom just quit.

Seriously? listed by who?

Because the last time i played, it didn't seem like it.

If anything, it has a much better community than in games lol WOW, SWTOR, Rift, etc etc, where most of it's players are 14 year olds who never say a word or general chat trolls, in EvE you can actually talk to people and do more things than just killing stuff,

EvE does have a step learning curve, it's not for everyone that's for sure, but that isn't bad, it's actually great, it's the only MMO at the moment that has a bit of complexity.... if someone complains that they got ganked in EvE... well... EvE is not for them, instead of crying like if the game was a casual quest grinder with nothing to do, they should join a CORP or research what they can do to stop getting ganked.

But you never played them, they haven't been implemented yet, how could you know that?? 

Please, show me an AA video with over the top animations, please!

Originally posted by Zylaxx

Two weeks ago I would of said yes.

 

As of this week, aint no way in hell.  I will stay subbed untill the 28th of August but after that, this game goes the way of the Tortanic.  In a word its got the same exact endgame as any other WoW/Rift/SWTOR clone.  Horizontal Progression is jsut an absured way to do endgame, it creates elitist pricks, fosters cliques, creates have's and have not's and is jsut plain idiotic.

 

 

LFMAO that was fast.

What happened? 

2 weeks ago you where defending this game like if it was the holy grail of the genre, now it's crap? The honeymoooooooooooon phase strikes again!

Let's hope GW2 lasts you a bit longer, it would be sad to see you bash the game in 2 months when you get bored of doing the same dungeons over an over again for a different dye color, lol.

Originally posted by jpnz

Originally posted by Vunak23

Originally posted by jpnz

 

I don't know man, looking at the MMO playerbase,  you are the minority. (FACT)

So why is a niche group telling the majority that 'mmos are not meant for you'?

Logic?

Maybe because im not part of the minority just the less vocal. (FACT)

Since it is a fact that themepark MMOs like WOW has the largest players, you are saying MMOs are not meant for yourself as well right?

I don't know if themepark MMOs like wow have more players.

After failures like AoC & WAR, which can't hold more than 100k players after a year, the only MMO like WOW that didn't lost 50-80% of it's player base after a couple of months was... WOW.

I'd say that people like WOW, not MMOs like wow, because every MMO like wow has failed horribly in the last 8 years.

And the only one who didn't fail had to go F2P because most of it's player base where lifetime subscribers (LOTRO).

SWTOR had 200+ servers at launch, now it has 20, Rift also merged almost all of it's servers and now Trion it's trying to sell 25$ mounts to pay the server bills.

Where are all this MMOs like WOW with so many players? I can't find any of them!

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Garvon3

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Garvon3

Vanilla WoW introduced all the things that more or less killed the genre. It's the opposite of old school, it founded the new school.

If by 'killed the genre' you mean 'expanded it tenfold' then you are correct. WOW killed MMOs in the same way that Star Wars killed special effects in movies. 

Except that it didn't... it expanded WoW 10 fold, but we now get LESS different types of MMOs, with LESS features, and they have LESS subscribers than pre WoW MMOs did. But yeah, having more people is all that matters, who cares if the games are garbage.

And its entirely possible to make a profit off hardcore MMO gamers. There's millions of them, and all of them are looking for a game.

You keep saying there are millions of them but you have yet to provide proof of that. You also say all of them are looking for a game, which is incorrect in two ways

1) many already have found a game

2) they are not all necessarily looking for the same game, which is a key point here.

There were at least 3 million players just in the US alone spread out across about 8 MMOs before 2003. The majority of them aren't happy with modern "MMOs". Vanguard's initial sales proved that there's a huge market for a hardcore MMO, it just have to be made well. And when there's no other competition it doesn't matter if they're not all looking for the same game, they'll give it a try and the majority will stick if its a good game. Pretty simple. And its not like it has to sustain itself off the pre WoW MMOers, there's plenty of new MMO gamers that ache for something a bit less... moronic as modern WoW clones.

It's a marketing without competition. Moba style MMOs barely even hold onto 50k players after the first few months of launch.

Source? BL:Champions, LOCO, and LoL have all been extremely successful. Are you saying that DFC is part of some massive conspiracy? Funcom is lying in their financial reports? 

I said Moba style MMOs (WoW, SWTOR, TSW, DDO). Not MOBAs. Reading comprehension is important.

Launching a hardcore MMO would net millions of LONG TERM subscribers.

There is no data to support that claim. Actually, all historical data points to the exact opposite.

Uh, what data points to the opposite? Older MMOs grew over the long term, increase number of servers and subs. Modern MMOs collapse and die almost right after launch. Hardcore MMOs are built around communities. Communities help games last. Data? See all the hardcore MMOs still going with stable subs, while modern MMOs die off left right and center?

 

There you go.

 

Less subscribers than pre-WOW MMOs is a pointless distinction to make, as only a tiny percentage of MMOs even charge a subscription.

But that's because they all suck and nobody plays them for more than a couple of months, they aren't worth a subscription, unlike older MMOs who where able to hold more than 200k players for a year. See UO, EQ, DAoC & AC, all of them more successful than cheap wow clones like AoC, WAR & SWTOR (actually, they wheren't cheap at all) those games banked on hype and payed reviews for the majority of its profits,box sales, once people actuallly played them, everyone left.

It's either F2P where any turd gets players, or a quick 6 month death when the lastest big thing loses 90% of it's playerbase.

If anything, the death of the P2P model proves how bad the genre is ATM, MMOs lost depth to warrant a subscription, they became like single player rpgs, but with less quality and more quantity.

2 month fillers.

MMOs now are poor man's RPG for the people who can't afford 60$ for 20 hours of content.

Originally posted by Nefera

 

At first I was concerned when you said that you have a lot of spare time to play games. However, since you also said that you've got two other MMOs, it should be no problem. As with most games, you would fairly certainly burn through most of game content in GW2 very fast if you played "full time", and end game is mostly what you've been doing up till max level - dynamic events, and dungeons for weapon skins.

 

Consequences for character death on PvP are minimal, so by what you said it would most likely NOT draw you in. Though, I'd recommend just having a go at WvW, who knows, you might like it.

 

Firstly, GW2 is very different to GW1. World is persistent, and you no longer need to be in a (near)full party to be able to complete quests and missions. There is a personal story that you can follow, that actually does change based on what options you choose at character creation, and what you decide to do along the road. I also found the world to be very immersive, with lots of cool things hidden away, and fun NPC convos, scenarios, and all that. I had a great time in PvE, and would definitely recommend it. All that content for the box price is a steal. You can do most content solo/duo, and won't need to invest huge amounts of time to stay competitive.

 

There is a pet class - ranger. Though the AI seems to be less than it could be currently...hopefully they'll be able to improve it though. To me it seems to be based off GW1's hero (especially melee hero) AI, at least the pet seems to behave in a similar manner. Necromancers also get minions, mesmers get clones and illusions, and engineers get turrets - not the traditional kind of pets though.

 

I would definitely recommend checking out the game. If you have the cash, go for it - you'll most likely enjoy it. You can easily shelve it after you've gone through the content, and come back at no additional cost when they add new stuff - except for paid expansions of course. If you end up liking the game, the amount of content you get for just the box price is amazing.

Originally posted by quicknuts

a completly feel the same  im bored to death with these so called mmos and the combat system is the same old crap we been playing for years and years whitch i hate  ug i do enjoy battlefield 3 but sometimes i need a break from it and you should try dragons dogma its a nice chainge but not multi player

Im on the same boat, but at least i get some weeks maybe a month or 2 of fun with every themepark, SWTOR was fun for a month, TSW for 2 weeks, now GW2 looks like a solid 1 month filler.

Heard great things about Dragon Dogma, but im still waiting for the GOTY edition to play it with all the DLCs.

Originally posted by Gallus85

Originally posted by Whyhate

 

 

GW2 has 3 or 4 zones where people go to PVP, that's the exact opposite of open world PVP

3 Million sales... woot!, and then in 1 year it will have 300k players, just like every other over hyped mainstream casual themepark.

 

You talk like if ArcheAge was a themepark and GW2 a sandbox.

 

In one you either kill mobs... or kill players in PVP, there is nothing else to do.

 

In the other one, you can do whatever you want, from crafting a town with your guild, crafting your own ship, your own glider, having your own farm, cutting down trees, underwater treasure hunting, having mounts, a skillbar with more than 5 buttons, massive non-instanced world with player crated factions, politics, open world dungeons, a real economy, no instant teleport, no soft grouping, etc etc etc

 

Which one is a sandbox/hybrid and which one is a themepark?

 

"The big unique and huge selling point of GW2 is the fact that the PVE content, the DE's, actually change the world.  Especially the later level content.  Save a town from orcs, the town thrives.  Lose the fight or ignore their plight and it's taken over by the monsters.  This is the kind of PVE content people are looking for.  PVE that matters, makes a difference, has consequence and real rewards outside exp/loot."

Seriously? nothing changes, 10 minutes later it's the same scripted event again. How is that PVE with consequences and "real rewards"? lol

GW2 has ~15 button skill bar (You wouldn't know since you never played the game)

Still very limited.

GW2 you can cut down trees (You wouldn't know since you never played the game)

In Dynamic Events, and you can't do anything with them.

And even if you can craft something with it, the crafting in GW2 is shallow as hell so who actually cares.

Look at the big picture, in ArcheAge you plant your own trees in your garden and them cut them down.

In GW2, you are doing Dynamic Event objectives... a same old pick this quest.

GW2 the DE events don't work anything like you described, outside a handful of nooby zone starter DE's.  Most of the mid to end game DE's are chaining events, that cycle over a long period of time and have multiple possible outcomes depending on the success and failures throughout the chain. (You wouldn't know since you never played the game)

10 minutes, 30 minutes, it's still the same, nothing really happens. And the majority of DE are all mostly generic kill something or pick something, only a limited amount of DEs chain, it's scripted content that recycles all the time, it's still the same old, kill mobs for XP so you can lvl up... that's the whole game.

GW2 has Hard Grouping and soft grouping (You wouldn't know since you never played the game)

Everyone auto joins while a Dynamic Event starts, nobody says a word, the event ends, everyone leaves, exactly like in rift, soft grouping, no community. Of course you can start your own group too, doesn't change the fact that the grouping in GW2 is very very casual.

GW2 has underwater exploration (You wouldn't know since you never played the game

I wouldn't call that exploration, it's just another place where you can kill mobs, you can't really do anything there.

Darkfall is a sandbox and has instant teleporting (You wouldn't know since you never played the game)

So? doesn't change the fact that instant teleporting is an extremely casual feature that kills the open world feel and makes the world empty and dead.

GW2 doesn't have mounts.  Good job.

GW sold over 6 and a half million copies over the course of 6 years (So a lot more than 300k people kept interest for more than 3 months apparently,

Honestly, i don't know, i couldn't play GW1 for more than a week.

Darkfall had 300k people (maybe 200k) try the beta.  The game currently has 4 servers with ~1000 active players each.  So I guess about 192k, about 92% of the people who played the game couldn't be bothered to stick around (Guess it had too much playe made-content eh?)

Who said anything about Darkfall? Player made content wasn't the problem LOL, player made content isn't a bad thing, it's the only thing to do when you finish all the dev created content, that's why almost every themepark released in the last 8 years ended up F2P or dead with 1-5 servers after selling millions of boxes. 

Darkfall tanked because it was a low budget indie gankfest with a horrible net code.

Mortal Online has ~2000 players messing around with the game.

So? It's another low budget gankfest.

SWG was tanking even before they made the terrible changes to it, and it' completely dead now.

So? it was doing fine before the CU and the NGE, not wow numbers but with a solid 300-400k playerbase.

EvE is the ONLY success sandbox as of yet.  And for good reason.

UO was succesful,  the rest where all low budget indie gankfests.

GW is about 7 years old and has more active players than every sandbox MMORPG that's currently running put together by about 20 fold. (Excluding EvE)

Excluding WOW, EvE is the MMO with most subs on the west (and if SWTOR still has more than 400k subs, give it 1 or 2 months) so?

Having more players than a bunch of... again... low budget indie gankfests isn't something surprising.

Not saying Sandbox is bad, far from it.  I've played them all because I want them to be great and I enjoy the play style.  But obviously what some of you people think a "sandbox" is supposed to be is not the right way to go about doing it.

Indeed, you played them ALL, im not sure what are you trying to say, first GW2 was a sandbox, then it was a hybrid, now sandboxes are all crap and nobody likes to play them.

Im not sure if you really played them all, i mean you don't even know what a sandbox or open world PVP is, seems fishy.

Yeah im not buying it, you use the same old cliches that every sandbox hater uses, profits over gameplay, if it's not mainstream it sucks, and a new one "there isn't a single good sandbox MMO, all of them failed, but i played them all and i love them!!!!!!!!"

Archeage has the graphics.  It has the weeaboo appeal with the art and animation style.  It has "sandbox" elements that are fun.  But the rest of the game is hollow and that's why it will tank like the rest.

The animations are normal, they aren't over the top.

The art style isn't "weaaboo" at all, there is an eastern faction with eastern themed art style (but not over the top), and a western faction with western themed art style.

AA is on closed beta and it also has dynamic events, they are also adding mob invasions and tsunamis on the next closed beta ( You wouldn't know since you never played the game )

So is GW2 a sandbox or not? OP was looking for a sandbox MMO, why are you giving me this long speech about how sandbox MMOs are shit? It's clear that you like casual themeparks.

Why should i even care about how much SWG sold or if Mortal Online has 2000 players?

What has any of all that stuff got to do with GW2 being a sandbox or not?

But yes, in my opinion, GW2 is clearly over hyped and it's going to lose a lot of players over the next months, and by the time ArcheAge releases, GW2 will be just another themepark that was fun for a couple of months, The only competition AA will have in the west in 2014 will be TESO, Firefly and maybe WoD if it ever gets released.

I was never arguing about Sandbox or themeparks and which one is superior.... i was only saying that GW2 is... just another themepark in a genre filled with themeparks, and for people like the OP who are bored of themeparks and want a sandbox, GW2 isn't a good option.

For people who are bored to death of themeparks, GW2 isn't different enough, looking at the big picture, it's still the same old, kill things to lvl up, no meaningful way to interact with other players, no content besided combat, no politics, shallow crafting, no way to interact and affect the world, GW2 looks like a good MMO to play every couple of months for some mindless fun, but it's not meant to be played as a main MMO for years if one likes more sandboxy games with Depth on the level of UO or EvE.

That's why i don't believe you actually played all those games that you say you played, or if you actually like sandboxes.

You see AA and the only thing you see is a mob grinder, when the reality is that AA is an MMO with more options, freedom, depth, playstyles and things to do than GW2, which is all about combat, killing mobs and PVP in a couple of zones agains't people you don't know of other server.

There isn't even a reason to PVP with them... they are just from a different server, that's it.

Sandboxes aren't better than themeparks, they are 2 different genres suited for 2 different kind of players, i never implyed anything like that, you seem to be stuck on a weird themepark vs sandbox mentality.

Originally posted by bcofido

Originally posted by Whyhate

Is that dungeon at the end non-instanced?

 

It´s an instanced one.

At 05:03 you can see the portal at the upper left!

Those are the new regions for level 35+, 40+ and 45+ and they are sooo beatiful :)

My hype level just went from an 9 to a 6...

Originally posted by Gallus85

Originally posted by Whyhate

GW2 doesn't have open world PVP and it's not a sandbox or a hybrid.

It's a themepark.

OP is looking for a sandbox game.

That's about it.... 

Oh and i will have fun with ArcheAge, unlike GW2, it will hold my attention for more than 2-3 months like every other shallow themepark MMO with no player created content and kill 10 quests... i mean Dynamic Events.

If all it takes is crafting houses, ganking people while PVEing and killing mindless/lifeless NPCs over and over again to entertain you, I feel sorry for ya.

Imo, GW2 does have OWPVP.  The landmass where the Siege warfare takes place is 10 square miles large, with hundreds of forts and objectives to attack and defend.

You seem to think OWPVP has to constitute some sort of FFA PVE world where people are allowed to kill and steal from each other at any time.  That may be your opinion (that you want a mixed PVE + PVP world), but that's not what "makes a sandbox" and everyone has their own definition of what one is.

PVE + PVP FFA didn't work in Shadowbane, it didn't work in DF, it didn't work in SWG, it didn't work in MO.  What makes you think Archeage is going to be some bastion of amazing PVP?  Aside from the combat system being about as boring as WoW's?  We already know the PVE in Archeage is extremely bland and average (Works exactly like standard themepark quests), so you think the ability to build houses and gank people is going to be some sort of amazing experience?

I'm done talking to you, kid.  Enjoy making your dresses in Archeage.

GW2 is estimated to sell 3 million copies by the end of 2012.  We're not hurting for players.

Another cliche, WOW has open world PVP and it's not a FFA gankfest.

GW2 has 3 or 4 zones where people go to PVP, that's the exact opposite of open world PVP.

So you dominated in UO-Pre trammel?? 

Feel sorry for me? kid? why are you so angry? We are talking about games here.... lol

3 Million sales... woot!, and then in 1 year it will have 300k players, just like every other over hyped mainstream casual themepark.

You talk like if ArcheAge was a themepark and GW2 a sandbox.

In one you either kill mobs... or kill players in PVP, there is nothing else to do.

In the other one, you can do whatever you want, from crafting a town with your guild, crafting your own ship, your own glider, having your own farm, cutting down trees, underwater treasure hunting, having mounts, a skillbar with more than 5 buttons, massive non-instanced world with player crated factions, politics, open world dungeons, a real economy, no instant teleport, no soft grouping, etc etc etc

Which one is a sandbox/hybrid and which one is a themepark?

"The big unique and huge selling point of GW2 is the fact that the PVE content, the DE's, actually change the world.  Especially the later level content.  Save a town from orcs, the town thrives.  Lose the fight or ignore their plight and it's taken over by the monsters.  This is the kind of PVE content people are looking for.  PVE that matters, makes a difference, has consequence and real rewards outside exp/loot."

Seriously? nothing changes, 10 minutes later it's the same scripted event again. How is that PVE with consequences and "real rewards"? lol

GW2 doesn't have open world PVP and it's not a sandbox or a hybrid.

It's a themepark.

OP is looking for a sandbox game.

That's about it.... 

Oh and i will have fun with ArcheAge, unlike GW2, it will hold my attention for more than 2-3 months like every other shallow themepark MMO with no player created content and kill 10 quests... i mean Dynamic Events.

Of course it's possible.

Just look at Lineage 2, played it for about 4 years, and there was little to no ganking on that game.

Why?

Well, for startes, your name would turn red and you could drop gear after dying.

Secondly, you could piss an entire clan, even an alliance, and by doing that, you could get your guild into big trouble, politics was the most important thing in that game.

Casual themparks without any consequences shouldn't have open world PVP, period, when there is no consequence for ganking, everyone can be an asshole all the time.

But it's sad to see people on this forum saying things like "if you want open world pvp you are a ganker", it's clear you never played a good MMO with open world pvp sweetheart...

Originally posted by Wizardry

Archeage

I will not pretend to say it will be perfect,heck it's main selling point seems to be a pvp structure that offers way more than simple instanced battle grounds.I am not even into pvp,but having it open world and with added features like ships and water fighting intrigues me a bit.Hang gliding,definitely a different twist we are not used to seeing.

Best thing to do is look for the many you tube videos and you will see lots of  new ideas.

 You will not find videos of devs bragging about their art team or anything,that alone is a breathe of fresh air as i tire of marketing hype,i prefer product over talk.

I will mention what scares me,as i might not like it because i am a traditionalist when comes to class design.Their design will be imo severely restricted.It might all change by time th egame goes live but the idea is to have 10 skills within each class to choose from but you can only learn 3.This aspect right there is going to be a hot topic in the future,i know it.

Myself i will be looking at the depth of these skills.I mention this becuase the lead guy says they do not plan on making any skill to overpowering to stay clear of arguments over classes.Does this mean some pretty ho hum boring skills?I can't answer that just yet,we will have to wait and see i guess.They mention versatilty and lots of variation,but if one skill is "healing" i guarantee 90% of the players will all have the same builds.

That is what really gives me confidence about AA, it's on closed beta yet there is no NDA, players are free to upload whatever they want.

Im not sure if i understanded your point about the 10 skills, from what i've seen in this video, there are 144 different class combinations, since you have to pick 3 out of 10 different combat schools.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vo05ANVoGvg

Seems like good customization, but of course it can end up with 2 OP builds and everyone using them.

What i don't like about AA is the boring old combat... but it's not so bad considering AA is probably the most feature rich MMO since EvE.

IMO it's going to be very succesful.

About the retention.... i honeslty have my doubts.

Just like all themeparks, when the content locusts finish all the PVE content (and that will happen, don't kid yourself), and players are left out with PVP as the only thing to do while waiting for new dungeons and DE's,one has to wonder if the easy to get into PVP with no real winners or losers will have enough depth to hold people attention for more than a couple of weeks.

If i remember right... almost everyone loved SWTOR for the first months.... then they ran out of content, plus the endgame was crap.

So... do people really hate same old themeparks or they just hate to run out of content? GW2 is going to be a perfect test to know that.

But it doesn't matter since it's B2P, it's not really meant to be played as your main MMO for years, and i expect lots of expansions to come out so you will never reallly "quit" the game.

This is al IMO, of course.

WOW has several areas to choose where to lvl up in different level ranges.

Suddenly, WOW is a hybrid.

Low life gankers, crafting addicts, "uber gear", korean grindfest, "big boss"

Do you have any other cheap cliches?

I mean it's funny because you say all those things while being a fan of a game that only has combat as content... and it's a sandbox... right?

That quote was meaningless, it's not seamless, it's instanced, it has loading screens, the pvp is zoned, how is that "open world"?

ArcheAge is non instanced, there isn't a single instance, only one battleground for siege practice, now thats an open world MMO.

But i guess you knew that... since you played it, lol.

It's not just crafting, crafting leads to other things, like caravans, player made factions, player made cities, naval warfare, sieges, politics, guild wars, real exploriation, territorial control, everything is connected.

That's how sandboxes are, different playstyle options.

GW2 lacks all those things, you either kill mobs in dynamic events... pick apples in dynamic events.... or...

Kill mobs in heart quests.

Oh... you can also kill players in PVP

...

You can't even pick apples without having a dynamic event asking you to pick those apples.

In a sandbox... or a hybrid... or whatever, i should be able to pick those apples and make an apple pie whenever i want.

But i guess im a crafting addict.... or maybe you don't know what are you talking about since you never actually played a sandbox MMO.