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All Posts by observer

All Posts by observer

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1880 posts found

 

I'm all for competition, but when it involves real money and profit, it shifts the motivations of the modders/developers, and corrupts the scene.  This will also give developers even more control over their products due to copyrights, licenses, and fees (if it's even possible).  The majority of modders will join projects where they can make money, while the free mod projects will struggle to find people willing to do it for free.  Eventually, the majority of mods will be DLC monetized content.

Just look at the addon scene for WoW.  Now imagine if addons were sold.  This would disrupt the entire scene, especially if other MMO's started taking fees for addons.  Guilds might even demand that certain addons be required.  PvP could become p2w where certain addons give advantages.

Eventually, around 2009, Blizzard had to release/revise it's policies due to this:  http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1021053914

I realize this analogy isn't good, since WoW is an MMO, and Skyrim is singleplayer, but i'm highlighting what kind of effects a paradigm shift like this would eventually cause.

Or maybe i'm just exaggerating and overstating the disruptive effects this would have across all steam/valve games, or non-valve/steam games, and entire genres.  It's just something to think about really.. and a good discussion.  

This fiasco is almost reaching levels that Dark & Light had.. lmao.  Anyone remember that game?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_and_Light

MMORPG.com gave the game a 4 out of 10, saying that it "offers a degree of freedom that is rare in online games" but "the game in its current state is broken, full of bugs and does not have half of what was promised""

Originally posted by Torval
Originally posted by mmoguy43
Originally posted by GolbezTheLion

http://ca.ign.com/articles/2015/04/27/valve-axes-paid-skyrim-mods

That didn't take long.

Also, none of the mod makers were actually making any cash, they were being "paid" in steam wallet credit. The only people who would have actually profited from this little endeavor would have been Valve and Bethesda.

Where did you hear they paid in steam credit? I'm fairly certain it said in the faq they would pay to your bank account the month after.

The amount of outright lies and misinformation spread in this thread and by protesters in general has been astounding. They couldn't get their way on truth or by allowing others to game as they wish so they lied and waged a propaganda war.

They'll lose in the end though. There are people willing to pay for good mods. A better system will evolve. There is money to be made.

Yes, and then the modding scene will just become another kickstarter project, or worse, like Pathfinder Online, where monthly rates will be required for testing them.  

Originally posted by mrBurns210
Originally posted by observer
Originally posted by mrBurns210

Seems Valve has cancelled the program. I think it is a shame.

-This could have enticed MORE Game Publishers to encourage a modding community  ( seeing as it could potentially bring in more revenue ).

-Brought in more people into modding as potential money is a great motivator. 

-Purely voluntary on behalf of the mod creator and consumer of mods. How can you knock that?

-There still would have been FREE mods.

That's assuming profit will create better mods.  I find the opposite to be true.  Modders that create mods do it primarily for passion, and not necessarily for profit, although both can be motivations, the latter is responsible for rushed projects and monetization schemes.

Profit would do that. Passion is great and all but it does not pay the bills and before bringing up donations just realize that usually donations tend to be abysmal without a major donor.  Modding has always been free simply due to the potential legal action a game developer could take if a mod was trying to cash in.

It could have allow those to support their mods full time ( if their quality was good). Maybe entice more major projects like skywind if potential profits are good enough be sought after.

I still disagree.  Making mods was never about paying bills.  That's just ridiculous to think that.  It was never meant for making a career out of it.  Some developers go on to work for major game companies, but that was just an added bonus to their resume.

Adding monetization schemes to the modding community distorts what modding is all about.

Originally posted by mrBurns210

Seems Valve has cancelled the program. I think it is a shame.

-This could have enticed MORE Game Publishers to encourage a modding community  ( seeing as it could potentially bring in more revenue ).

-Brought in more people into modding as potential money is a great motivator. 

-Purely voluntary on behalf of the mod creator and consumer of mods. How can you knock that?

-There still would have been FREE mods.

That's assuming profit will create better mods.  I find the opposite to be true.  Modders that create mods do it primarily for passion, and not necessarily for profit, although both can be motivations, the latter is responsible for rushed projects and monetization schemes.

Charging for mods goes against the very spirit of the modding community.

Modders create mods to enhance the experience of the existing game.  Modding was never intended to make a profit.

Originally posted by Loke666
Originally posted by Howbadisbad

 

"smart" AI doesn't make a game more challenging, it just increases the time to find out how to exploit the AI and grind them in an efficient manner. (sometimes it makes it take less time because the complexity leaves AI prone to some amazing bugs)

The only way to make PVE difficult, it to make it artificially difficult (surprise stuff, RNG, mobs being OP, "cheating", etc) a computer will never be able to beat a competant player if they are playing on the same level

Well, taking down a stupid boss with a zillion hitpoints might be as hard as taking down a smart one with way fewer but OP still have a point, they made the MMO AIs incredible stupid and predictable and a bit more thinking on the spot and nasty surprises would make the game more fun.

A computer can beat a player on the same level though because it can time its skills precisly right to interupt you while you use your best skill (you know, the one with the long cooldown and such). Too much of that isn't fun though.

The real bandit here is the tanks taunting ability.

In a single player game you usually only fight a boss one time (well, you beat it once at least) but in MMOs players tend to repeat the content. Making the bosses more unpredictable would make that more interesting (and yes it wont be fair since sometimes you could get lucky and get it far easier but it is still worth it since it makes the game less of a grind. Besides, life ain't fair).

The only real problem here is to find the just right intelligence to maximize the fun. Being steamrolled or just lazily rotate skills without much risk ain't neither fun after all.You should be forced to react and adapt to new situations as you play, and in ways you didn't the last time you did the same dungeon.

Exactly.  People always claim they want more challenging content, but they never say in detail what constitutes challenging content.  It's even harder to balance encounters if it's in a group or raid, or in an open-world environment.

 

Originally posted by Nilden
Originally posted by observer
Originally posted by Nilden
Originally posted by Gestankfaust
Originally posted by Mechanism

I've noticed that in every mmo I've ever played the AI has been noticeably dumber then in most single player games. With the exception of bosses the standard mob will behave in the same simplistic fashion in almost all mmos. They should be attacking in formations, avoiding especially powerful attacks, finding cover against ranged players or just generally doing anything other then running in a straight line and randomly executing whatever skills are off cooldown. I know this may be the compromise developers have to make to keep mechanics like tanking working or reduce server lag but smart AI is one of the most satisfying ways to make a game challenging and maybe it's about time developers stopped making that compromise.

Maybe you could do better?

I know I could. I'd also do it for free. In fact compared to MUDs where you had to worry about mobs interacting with objects/rooms modern MMOs would be very easy to program AI scripts. I know java, C++, html, visual C, assembly and even some old vic 20 commadore 64 goto statement dinosaur programming among others and I'm sure I could learn anything like when I learned papyrus scripting to make Skyrim mods.

Thing is I'm positive any game studio could make the AI better.

The AI is stupid on purpose.

It's not that it's "stupid", it's just designed that way, because MMO's are combat-focused.  There are only so many ways you can code combat behavior. .. attack, defend, react, etc.

People in this thread aren't thinking about encounter longevity or difficulty.  They claim they want challenge, but never think through the details on how to achieve it.

Should players die in 1 hit within the timespan of 0.5 seconds?  It's possible to code that, but it wouldn't be challenging for the player.

Should an encounter last indefinitely, because an A.I. mob can regen to full health every second if the players don't interrupt it?  What about the interrupt's cooldown?  What about the other skills that need to be used in conjunction with the interrupt?

Sure, A.I. can be designed to be very difficult with a 99% failure rate, but people value their time, and only a masochist would waste his time trying to overcome a 99% failure rate.

It's easy to claim that A.I. is designed poorly, but it's a lot harder to design well balanced A.I. encounters, that are based on risk, time, value, and the various competence levels of millions of other players.  The latter is impossible to determine.

Your talking way more about balancing and pacing than AI tho.

Look let me write a small AI script for you. We will make a wimpy script so the mob will run away from players who are over 10 levels higher than it that come within 10 meters.

if (player.level) - (my.level) >= 10

and (player.distance) <= 10

then (RUNAWAY) == TRUE

No balance,just AI. You could put this on some wildlife, maybe some wimpy goblins etc.

That's my point.  Scripts like those already exist, and they are simple.  I'm not sure what you're getting at though.  You trying to say that most MMO's don't have simple scripts like these?

It's amazing they would build a game around a nostalgic niche of players, and expect to generate enough revenue to sustain itself.  
Originally posted by aliven

People state their oppinions how f2p is cash grab and then they show GW2 as a example of good f2p.

 

Im speechless about this forum in general. Still amused. 

I'm speechless that people still think GW2 is f2p.

The fact that PFO requires an initial purchase and a sub, and other optional purchases, is probably why there are few people willing to engage in an unreleased product.

Whoever is managing that game needs to take a long hard look at the quality of the product, and compare it to others in the genre, and they will see it's not even comparable.  I understand they're passionate about their game, but there isn't any shame to recognize that the product isn't worth what they're asking for.

Originally posted by Nilden
Originally posted by Gestankfaust
Originally posted by Mechanism

I've noticed that in every mmo I've ever played the AI has been noticeably dumber then in most single player games. With the exception of bosses the standard mob will behave in the same simplistic fashion in almost all mmos. They should be attacking in formations, avoiding especially powerful attacks, finding cover against ranged players or just generally doing anything other then running in a straight line and randomly executing whatever skills are off cooldown. I know this may be the compromise developers have to make to keep mechanics like tanking working or reduce server lag but smart AI is one of the most satisfying ways to make a game challenging and maybe it's about time developers stopped making that compromise.

Maybe you could do better?

I know I could. I'd also do it for free. In fact compared to MUDs where you had to worry about mobs interacting with objects/rooms modern MMOs would be very easy to program AI scripts. I know java, C++, html, visual C, assembly and even some old vic 20 commadore 64 goto statement dinosaur programming among others and I'm sure I could learn anything like when I learned papyrus scripting to make Skyrim mods.

Thing is I'm positive any game studio could make the AI better.

The AI is stupid on purpose.

It's not that it's "stupid", it's just designed that way, because MMO's are combat-focused.  There are only so many ways you can code combat behavior. .. attack, defend, react, etc.

People in this thread aren't thinking about encounter longevity or difficulty.  They claim they want challenge, but never think through the details on how to achieve it.

Should players die in 1 hit within the timespan of 0.5 seconds?  It's possible to code that, but it wouldn't be challenging for the player.

Should an encounter last indefinitely, because an A.I. mob can regen to full health every second if the players don't interrupt it?  What about the interrupt's cooldown?  What about the other skills that need to be used in conjunction with the interrupt?

Sure, A.I. can be designed to be very difficult with a 99% failure rate, but people value their time, and only a masochist would waste his time trying to overcome a 99% failure rate.

It's easy to claim that A.I. is designed poorly, but it's a lot harder to design well balanced A.I. encounters, that are based on risk, time, value, and the various competence levels of millions of other players.  The latter is impossible to determine.

Originally posted by ranghar
Originally posted by rsdancey

Do you feel that the people making Shroud of the Avatar and Crowfall don't know what they are doing and are using an engine that is unsuitable for an MMO?

We have yet to see a released MMO running on unity 5, so it is hard to say at this point.  I do feel that Shroud of the Avatar is very subpar at this point.  Of course it is easy access and blah blah, but it doesn't feel quality in any regard.

Agreed.  I tried SotA awhile back, and it was just terrible.  Crowfall doesn't look any better.  The Unity engine is powerful, and an MMO can be made on it, but it will never be as good as an in-house game engine from scratch.  It's like taking a scripting language and trying to code without limitations, when it would've just been better to learn the underlying programming language in the first place.

Originally posted by baphamet

 


Originally posted by observer
The only reason i'm against boxing in almost all MMOs, is because it was never intended to be played like that.  If the MMO/game was intended to control multiple characters, then i wouldn't see it as a problem, such as in GW1 with Henchmen, or singleplayer RPGs such as Dragon Age, Swtor w/ companions, etc..

 

well if they say that it is okay to do, it is intended. they put mercs in the game which is essentially the same thing.

 

Yes, but the game client is intended for one account.  It was never intended to run multiple accounts on one client (unless this has changed?).

As i said, having mercs is different, because they are on one account.  With multiple accounts, it trivializes content, which could also mean more disruption to the economy.

Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by observer
Because coding behavior and logic for a machine is extremely difficult.

nah .. it is actually quite easy. Blizz has done it before .. just decided not to do it again because that is not what players want.

I should've stated: in general, not specifically to MMO combat encounters.  There are many singleplayer games, and other genres, where A.I. is very difficult to code and mimic human behavior.

It really depends on the MMO encounter too.  A.I. is just mostly combat oriented.. move here, move there, counter skill, react, rinse & repeat.   Creating A.I. logic, beyond that simplicity, is what i was really referring to.

For example, an A.I. boss that can "think" and react to player motives before any sign of combat... or a just a regular group of mobs, where one mob will run or fly off indefinitely because he knows his limits in battle.  Or any NPC that reacts to written text, or voice commands, by the player.

Because coding behavior and logic for a machine is extremely difficult.

There isn't anything really new for level 1-85, since the cata expansion, and you'll have all of MoP from 85-90, but there really is no point in doing them.

WoW is still all about latest expansion content and max level if you want to keep up with progression or content updates.

It seems like they're just going in half-@ssed with PVE.

If they're going to be primarily pve, then they should go all the way.  It was the same with pvp too, they never went fully pvp before these changes.  It's always seemed mediocre at best, because of any lack of direction.

Originally posted by rsdancey

"Marvel's The Avengers" cost $220 million to make. At my local theater it cost about $12 to buy a ticket to see that film.

"John Wick" cost about $20 million to make. At my local theater it cost about $12 to buy a ticket to see that film.

The cost to make a thing doesn't strongly correlate with the price consumers pay for that thing especially entertainment.

MMOs are substantially underpriced. The $15/month price point was established roughly in Y2K. Factoring for inflation, that price should be $20.57 today. Compared to other expenses, MMO subscription fees are trivial. A month of MMO game time costs less than a pizza, or three coffees at Starbucks, or 2 packs of cigarettes.

Our market research data shows that more than half of our players live in households that generate more than $70k/year. The sub fee is not a meaningful factor in determining if people play or don't play our game.

Sorry, but those customers are paying for a final product.  They are not paying for it's iterations, on a monthly basis.

They are not paying to watch the scenes developing over time with different lighting effects, different camera effects, and matte shots, or dialogue scripts being revised.

That analogy doesn't hold.

They are better off cancelling it, then relauncing it at a later date.

If it launches and it fails, then their name will be tarnished, but if it launches at a later date with a revamped game, then people will be less likely to blame them if it's still a failure.  They'll be seen as a company trying to preserve the EQ legacy, instead of just trying to take credit because of the brand name.

Either way, i wouldn't want to be in their shoes if EQN fails or cancels.

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