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All Posts by Bentusi

All Posts by Bentusi

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8 posts found
Originally posted by Loke666

Well, the MMO genre is certainly not growing as it used to do a few years back and the reason for that is probably that most of them are too similar.

They have usually about the same difficulty, features, setting and mechanics and that do hurt the potential number of players that could play MMOs. 

But the state of MMOs is that there are way more players now then when OP started playing in 2001 or when I started in 1996.

There could be plenty more if some publishers decided to make games for people who doesn't like high fantasy themepark MMOs with a modified D&D mechanics (a few such games do exist like Eve and TSW but there should be many more).

Many people here doesn't like Wow (never played it myself) but Blizzard did succeed in getting in a lot of fresh blood and more companies should learn from that, however not by copying Wow but to make games for people who aren't currently playing MMOs but would if the right game showed up.

The solution to get the genre start growing again is to find a new playerbase just like Wow did, not reviving games from way past (even if there are plenty of things you could learn from many old MMOs). 

But then OP might want it to return to the small badly funded niche genre it once was, but there were plenty of bad things about that as well. I dunno how many bugs that made people insane back then (M59 or EQ at launch, or even worse AO if you want example).

The thing I personally think they should try again is to make a MMO for pen and paper RPGers, there are millions of us around and games like UO, M59, AC and EQ reylly tried that but had so many technical limitations that doesn't exist today. Sadly did CCP close down their attempt a while back but there is a huge untapped potential playerbase there even if there are many others around.

All that said don't I mean that they should stop making high fantasy MMOs but it is time to stop putting all eggs in the same basket. That is at least my opinion.

A very intelligent response. I don`t think anyone necessarily wants to return to the niche situation for MMOs. But I`m not entirely convinced that I agree with your analysis of why WoW was successful either. I am aware that it was considered casual and commercial compared to EQ etc. But it also did make a name for itself for having an endgame that was unbeaten for about a year, and then only by Nihilum basically. TBC already went very casual compared to this, and had about 2% of the player base getting things done in SWP at the end. But it`s still a pretty high hanging fruit, and it helped make the game so exciting because virtually nobody ever really ran out of content.

Personally I think this was one of the main attractions of the game, and why the subs peaked in Wrath. All the old addicts came back and a surge of new players came in as well. But then it was too easily accessible and the addicts ran out of content and were bored and left again. And so the subs dropped by five million. Not rocket science this, if you ask me.

Originally posted by Cephus404
But since developers know that the hardcore players will buy the casual games anyhow and complain about them, they win either way.  The hardcore players tend to have no self control, they buy because they have to play an MMO, no matter how much they hate it, no matter how much they know they will hate it before they buy it, they buy it anyhow, then come here and whine about how horrible it is.

And then then wonder why developers don't  change.


I understand your point. And some of these people are certainly still around, compulsively playing MMOs. But because of the casual development I for one have entirely stopped playing MMOs, and will never touch another one until I am certain that it is and will remain persistently hard. I don`t even care if it`s too hard for me personally.  I would prefer that to the opposite.

I`m hardcore and love gaming, and at the moment all I do is play old games because I don`t like any of the games being produced these days. The last good ones I found were FTL and Panzer Corps, so I bought both right away. But those are the last two games I bought. The rest of the time I play old classics on UAE,  Dosbox and even CCS64 emu.  I`m sure gaming developers don`t think it`s OK when an enthusiastic gamer prefers games from the mid eighties to the trash they`re busy mass producing.

But me, I`d rather order joysticks and play Wizball on the C64 than waste any more time and money on MMO scams, whether they`re sub, P2P or F2P scams. Unless I`m some kind of rare and unique flower this is not at all a good sign for game developers. And unless they stop cutting corners and obsessing on finding new ways to bilk players of money rather than focusing on proper creative game development,  it`s not gonna change. The potential is endless in the current hardware. As gamers we have a right to demand something better than what is presently being released on the market. And the way to do that is to stop spending money on trash games. Even if this leads to Blizzard/EA/Activision/Bioware and others disappearing it will be more than worth it. Corrupt gaming companies have existed since the beginning, and collapse is their inevitable fate. But they are worthless and will be replaced by something better when they go.


Originally posted by donpopuki
Gotta love these arm chair game developers. The sort of demands and expectations betray their ignorance, naivety, and inexperience in a corporate environment.

And you gotta love people who try to use dismissive, baseless arrogance to end every discussion. The reality is that consumers shape the market by buying or not buying. Therefore consumers discussing games and determining what they like and don`t like is as relevant as anything. At present there are two kinds of gamers the way I see it. Gamers who accept anything developers release without any criticism whatsoever, and who think "change is good" like some kind of George Orwell MC victims, and gamers who don`t, and want genre integrity and game difficulty maintained or increased.

When the second group becomes larger than the first, the gaming industry will have to follow. We rule the market, not developers. And they know it. Their problem is trying in vain to make games which appeal to both groups of players. But this is impossible, as Blizzard have discovered. So games will and should probably either be hardcore or casual from now on, to cater to both groups of players. And it`s high time too: Every single game released for the past 6-7 years has been casual and hand holding, and as a result a huge portion of the market are having a hard time even finding games to play.

It`s just a matter of numbers. And almost everyone I know who has played or is playing WoW is bored stiff because everything is too easy, unless you do heroic raids. MMOs are not supposed to be that easy though, but are supposed to reward time spent, effort and dedication more than slacking around or clicking a queue button. Call it a second job as much as you want; it`s the damn genre! Don`t like it don`t play it. But don`t demand that the genre of the game you`re playing be changed to suit your preferences.

"This game is too hard and I don`t want to play all day. Please remove micromanagement and economic macro from the game or I refuse to play it!" "But then it isn`t an RTS anymore." "I don`t care. i paid for the game and I have a right to see all the content!"

I`m a little more old fashioned than this, and think that you make a game, release and then people buy it if it`s good. Then the game is finished until any expansions come out, at which point you pay for that. Both sub and f2p are being abused in disgusting ways for sure, but in both cases it`s because you sucker people into paying once for something and then to keep paying endlessly. Me I don`t even think it`s good business, because it turns players off your products once they wise up to the scams. It`s for the same reason it may make sense short term to rush a game out for, say, the Christmas sales. But the people who buy your shoddy rush job will remember it and not buy your next game. And this is what has sunk more gaming companies than I can count while I`ve been playing games. Anyone remember US Gold?

But it`s all a two-way street, and the gaming community is very dysfunctional as well. Developers are drowning in complaints; some valid and some just mindless. And there`s a tendency to grease the squeaky wheel, which means that the more you whine and moan and the louder you`re able to do it, the more developers will listen. Gamers feel shafted and have lost control of their games and developers lose respect for the gamers because they fall for the scams and because they complain no matter what you do. So it`s a vicious cycle of contempt which has gotten very bad over the last few years.

The answer is obvious; to simplify games so you don`t need 5 000 people on the payroll and ten years to make one game, to crowd fund and to stop trying to force gamers into virtual slave labor by creating digital hamster wheels you can only run around in whenever the publisher decides, even though you paid for the damn wheel. Several times even. For me personally, WoW is by far and away the most expensive game I have ever "bought" and the only one I presently do not own. I must have spent many hundreds of dollars on it, yet at the moment I am not allowed to so much as log on to check the auction house, because I have stopped paying for what is already the most expensive game I have ever played. It`s no wonder Blizzard have about ten pages of legalese on the login screen to legitimize this swindle.

Personally I had more fun with FTL, which cost about $100 000 to make, than I did with the last two WoW expansions I bothered trying and the last four Bioware releases combined. Come to think of it, I`m having more fun right now, replaying the original Panzer General in Dosbox, than I did with those games. Like so many games these days they`re bogged down in too many whizbangs, too much graphical realism, too much of all the wrong things (I`m talking to you pet battles!) and not enough straight game play. Bells and whistles do not a good game make, and unless the game play is there, the most expensive and fancy game in the Universe is trash.



Originally posted by Lence

Whats your opinion on crowd funding at the moment? It's nice to see old-school devs or people with brilliant ideas get funded directly by fans. no more money to publishers, taxes etc.. but 100% goes to developers. I'm pretty sure big publishers are afraid of this.

FTL and Pillars of Eternity alone prove that crowd funding is the future. One fresh idea and one return to an old concept, abandoned for no particular reason by all the big companies, and people run to it like an oasis in the desert. Altogether I would say that there are at least 50 available genres and sub genres in computer gaming, and presently the major publishers are releasing games in five of them: 3DRPG, RTS, 4x, sports simulation and FPS. Anything that`s neither of these should have a decent chance of succeeding with crowd funding, and even more so as new audiences become familiar with abandoned genres.



As a WoW veteran I can see the reasons for the demand for F2P, because many people know just how absorbed you can get in an MMO, and don`t want to be stuck paying a monthly sub for years. It gets pretty expensive after all compared to normal games, if you add it all up. The way I see it a pay to buy the game, then don`t pay to play it later, before charging something for XP packs every three years or so is the only model which is viable, and which is also fair to the players. From experience I know that there were many months when I was not precisely clear on what it was I was paying for with WoW, since new content was far between. Yet you sort of felt forced to play to get some value for money, and it became a pretty negative cycle, to add to all the other negative cycles WoW often started. And to top it off you then have to pay a full price again for each expansion, even though "adding content" was supposedly one of the advantages of a subscription model. The word "scam" doesn`t begin to cover it.

But where entitlement comes in for me is not by demanding an end to sub based MMOs, but in the incomprehensible attitude of some people that they are somehow entitled to see the entire game, just because they paid money for it. I mean, try making this demand with games like Pac Man, Iridis Alpha or chess. I bought this chess board so I demand to become as good as someone who has practiced every day for 20 years! How dare that ghost eat me???? Nerf the ghosts!!! And above all why is there a giant bull`s head there and then immediately below it as well, and why is my Gilby white and why did I just explode???? Nerf Jeff Minter!!!!

It`s so stupid it makes my head hurt. One of the main attractions with games for me has always been that they`re challenging, and that I can come back to them over and over because I haven`t been able to finish them. And I miss being impressed by people who were much better than I was, or on occasion impressing others, and I`m still wondering how it was even possible to clear all of Paradroid. Yet now it seems that a new generation of gamers are on the scene, fully expecting to be able to complete games with little or no effort. I will just never understand the point of that. Why even play games then? And this was what ruined WoW for me, what made the first playthrough of Diablo III so unbelievably tedious and what made DAO and Mass Effect much too trivial to finish. Every conceivable source of frustration has to be carefully removed and then medals for everyone, including the gold farmers! The worst part is it`s the opposite of fair, and also the opposite of real life. Usually, if you do something loads and loads, you become a lot better at it than people who just do it a little.

My only complaint about gaming is: why does everything have to be so mind numbingly simple? Have IQs dropped or something?

Out before rant mode commences. Be gentle.



Originally posted by Kopogero

And ironicly after my epic quest from 2001 with MMORPG's I'm back to my first...Anyways, these are some of the top reasons people think why we are in this state.

#1 Saturated market, too many options, spread players across, bigger competition, etc, etc..

#2 Too many programs/ways today to cheat/exploit/bot/multibox/spam etc in a game...

#3 Was recently reported that there are around 24.5 mil MMORPG subscribers in the WORLD.

#4 Private sector. Devlopers can't develop what they want, depend on publishers, etc..Too many things to spend # on from marketing, CEO's, and so forth.

#5 Becoming more expensive to build em, programmers, graphic artists, writers, voice actors and so forth.

#6 Bugs, bugs, bugs which are product of mainly of rushed, untested products or games developed by amateur/cheaper programmers.

#7 Bad directions, choices, ideas by the lead designers.

#8 Too many players out there seem to enjoy playing cheaply, repetitive games over MMORPG's like RTS, FPS, MOBAs, card games and so forth...

#9 Forums like these keep exposing the flaws and trashing games that are out within first month, alerting and notifying others why the game won't last.

#10 Bad communities...


I can go forth and forth and forth on the MANY reasons many would think why MMORPG's are at the current stage today, but all those reasons above are innacurate. There is one simple reason why today's MMORPG's aren't something truly better and greater than MMORPG's that were launched decades today and that is...

Those in charge of developing MMORPG's do not have the skills, love, experience, drive to work together and develop one EPIC MMORPG that when created it will make the MMORPG P2P market become 125 mil not 24 mil. People today do not involve themself with MMORPG's because they believe that LIFE has better options and value/entertainment. It's NOBODY's elses fault but yourself if you fail to deliver a successful product that can create a market and lure people to spend $ on it.

So for the last time, I'm tired of seeing all these threads, with so many reasons/assumptions why we have the quality of MMORPG's today after all these years. If people are happy enough with their lives as they are to not create that epic MMORPG then good for them. If people have the $ and are not as desperate to create it, again good for them. And if us the gamers can find ways to entertain ourselves in these dire times for this genre good for us.

I for once have not spent a DIME in the last 3 years, 6 months and 1 week on any new MMORPG that came and I wasn't the reason, I wasn't burnt out or anything. I simply did not find a product I see myself playing and I moved along as many out there.

The only way this genre will go forward is us the gamers are resilient and cautious with our $. It's our only way we can vote and when people don't pay for MMORPG's it doesn't mean there is no MARKET out there. It simply means there has been no publisher/developer out there capable to create/capture a market.

I agree with a lot of this. But it`s not just MMOs but game design in general. And it`s not just games but the economy, because there`s a financial depression which started in 2008. The consequence is that it gets harder and harder to establish a company and to make it profitable. And if your first game doesn`t turn a profit then that`s you out of business right off the mark. A few large old companies are still hanging in there, but even they are struggling and/or cutting corners. More time and resources are spent making games visually appealing and too little on actual game design, so that more derivative games can be created as quickly as possible to get some profits going.

I`m trying to think when I last played a really original game and it`s not easy. Maybe Homeworld, but then that was really just an RTS with an added dimension. Going back further there were games like Dungeon Keeper in the 90s which were original, and new ideas were thick in the Amiga and C64 days, even though the games were simpler. For some reason though, the scale of games these days, and the time and manpower it takes to make them, seems to prevent creativity rather than encourage it, and most new games are just remakes and tweaks of old games. Just how many RTS, FPS, 4X and RPG games have been made over the last 15 years; almost all bad; almost all entirely unoriginal? It must be hundreds. Me, I played Dune II on the Amiga and liked some of the copycat games like Starcraft later, but certainly not most of them.  And I played Doom and absolutely hated it, and therefore haven`t bothered with more than about three FPS games since. And entire genres of games have basically disappeared, like tactical turn based, base builders/defense, comedy graphic adventures and anything 2D. The great thing this year for me is Pillars of Eternity, precisely because it seems to be trying to resurrect one of these ignored genres; top down isometric fantasy RPGs.

But it`s the same tired, hackneyed stuff in the MMO market. Either it`s autistville LoL or cards for the humunculii or it`s the same worn-out quasi Medieval FPRPGs we`ve been playing since Bard`s Tale. As if having an original idea is dangerous and to be avoided or something. If developers would make something distinct as well as of high quality then their games would be more successful you would think. In a way this was what WoW did at first, and it was also built for RPG and not just farming and lootwhoring, which broadened the appeal. And it`s not so hard to repeat this; in fact it would be easier to design your own game rather than desperately trying to emulate WoW, like so many MMOs seem to do.

Me I have an idea for a story driven Star Trek like MMO space exploration-combat/planetfall roguelike RPG, which would clearly be awesome. Of course, I don`t have a software company. But if I can have a good idea then so can millions of other people. how come none of them ever become games?


The secret reason MMOs suck these days. They are full of cretins.

A good review, except for the rating it got for replayability and social value. I managed to get two characters to level 60 and one HC character to 54, so a total of 10 and a half playthroughs. By this time I was utterly sick and tired of the maps, most of the dungeons, predictable trash mobs and no gear dropping.

And despite the online requirement the game is a solitary experience. The only "community" there is is the impersonality of its e-bay simulator.

These two areas should give the lowest scores I think.

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