They suffer the eternal problem of balancing classes for PvP and PvE at the same time.

As an example, Guild Wars had to take the path that they avoided for so long of a same skill having a PvP AND a PvE version, plus adding PvE-only skills. A same skill will work like this on PvE areas, and will behave differently on PvP areas.

For PvE, it could be fine being able to hybrid a class while offering the same output as a pure class, with the obvious differences expected from different classes. They have to balance it for 10-man and 25-man raids, plus the leveling and questing process.

For PvP, it would not be nice if a class can both heal and damage - don't forget they must also balance the skills based on Arena, Battleground and World PvP.

And that is why the issue is too complex for someone to simply dictate what and how something should be balanced, they probably do not dominate all the aspects of the game as I mentioned.

It is however valid to show Blizzard the unbalances, it just shouldn't be so simple to say "BLIZZARD YOU SUCK AT BALANCING", their game has grown way too complex to take such a decision in 5 minutes.

Originally posted by WisebutCruel

Originally posted by Gameloading

Originally posted by EricDanie

Item Mall games will persuade you with an endless relation of persuading you into buying more and more, that is why they are devilish and since we are in capitalism, its obvious priority is to increase profit - this is the endless circle that will make you suffer.

They don't, they usually just offer it and encourage it at worst. You can't purchase a +8 epic sword of awesomess or buy your character to level 87. Thats just not how item mall works.

 

 

You might want to look at FreeRealms before you say that. You can purchase the +8 epic sword.

In Rohan Online, you can virtually buy anything people are willing to sell for the currency based on real life money - be it epic items, be it characters (yes, you can sell characters, lol).

In RF Online, they broke their upgrading system when they brought their cash shop up, and continue to further break it at every update. You had the choice of mining, killing bosses and compete with other guilds of the same race in the game to acquire the materials to do the normal upgrading, and even with that rate, the best weapons you would see are +5 ones after months, years of effort focused on that only task - their upgrade chances go as low as 25% from +3 to +4, 10% from +4 to +5, 2% from +5 to +6, 0,0x% from +6 to +7.

Then, with the cash shop, they reduced the means of acquiring these materials by 90% of the original rates, removed some means in which it will take you months to make even a +4 weapon (prices for these materials skyrocketed by like 10 or 20 times their original price), while you could spend a few thousands bucks on cash shop upgraders and get a weapon directly from +0 to +7 without the risk of loss, that you would face the normal way.

In usual korean grindfests that rely on the epic week and month-long grind to acquire ONE level, you get the cash shop items to cut that process by half, or by a third, reduce or eliminate the death penalties, or reduce the difficulty with things such as reducing equipment level requirements - stat modifies, etc. If you consider that an even playing field, I no longer know what that is.

Gameloading, please show me an online game more than two years old that has not went this way with their cash shop.

Currently the MMO I look forward playing the most is Guild Wars 2.

It won't be coming in 2009 or early 2010 though, might even come out only on 2011, but I don't care about the when.

Originally posted by Lustmord

Originally posted by EricDanie

Originally posted by WisebutCruel

Originally posted by EricDanie

I can see people are taking too seriously P2P and F2P models as a whole, but I believe these models cannot be treated as a whole anymore.

First, I know there is no such thing as free playing in these games, and there shouldn't be (in AAA titles) as they were developed for profit while offering you the fun to pay for them and commit yourself to long-term play.
 

 

Show me an example of a AAA FTP game. And nope, Guild Wars requires a box to be bought.

 

Atlantica Online.

 

Altantica was horrible.

It even auto-walks your character to the next quest.

It may be horrible for you, but it is one of the most popular F2P games. I also think it is horrible, but I can't deny it is a F2P AAA title. It is in the Item Mall category though, it's horrible how the game shows you some nice mechanics like teleport directly to maps, auto-combat, check what a monster is composed of before engaging, and many more things and then your licenses expires and you have to pay for more, and paying for 30 days of each license would much more than a monthly fee would.

EVE wins that.

Thousands of space systems, and each one has things that can be done, and by that alone each one has a colossal number of activities that can be done.

You can't possible expect to roam every system in that game even if you head from stargate straight to the stargate leading to the other system, let alone explore each one individually.

But you could say it is "cheating" on fantasy MMOs, as the universe bigger than you can possibly imaginate, we currently have no chance of exploring it, although we have already "dominated" our own planet.

Not considering EVE, then, I really don't know. Any 3 year+ MMO should have developed enough expansions/updates that increased the content avaiable to the size that a new player cannot initially hope to see "an end" and that will cause people to skip half of it though, as increased level cap or new content will make half of that game world to be skipped by 99% of the new players.

Originally posted by Wizardry

Well i can tend to agree with most of the content that the writers here put out,i can't agree this time.

F2P has one VERY large black mark and that is allowing RMT to flourish untouched because they can make limitless accounts.Also it seems that F2P = low budget operation so you will also get low budget anti cheat as we all know of as "GAME GUARD".A totally useless pile of trash and EVERYONE knows it does NOT work,so why do these F2P developers keep using it?because they are low budget,and the game is always low budget as well.

Many would argue GW is good,i would agree for a single player,instance game it is alright,but it should not be i nthe MMO genre and it is not quite free as you have to buy the game and expansions.

Back to the F2P scheme of things,i ask myself why would a game allow thousands/millions of freebie users to utilize their bandwidth?All these RMT botters do not support the game,so the game gets no money from these RMT's.Well i know it sounds skeptic but i believe they have their hands tied into the RMT,i am not sure how involved but they are most definitely get some kinfd of kick back or are directly running these operations themselves,outside of the main operation of course.This allows them to make real life money that is not taxed under any government and is put directly into their pockets.This way they can actually claim their operation as a loss of profit and sit on the beach in Maui,sipping Pina Coladas.

There is yet another problem that botting creates,besides ruining the game economy,it allows players to vault above all others while not even at their PC.This is huge if the game involves open PVP or there is strict competition for elite high level bosses.The solution of charging for subscriptions is a start ,but the developer still has to free the game of any botting and use a working anti-cheat and so far i have not see na F2P utilize any of it.Even worse the RMT botters using illegal software link 3/4/5/6/7 players together,so they can follow each other around the game and heal and wipe anything in their path.

Guild Wars is not a MMO, it is a Cooperative Online RPG, it merely ended up being considered one because of its unique genre. Guild Wars 2, however, will be.

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Originally posted by EricDanie

My point of view on this is that I truly hate Item Mall games and believe they should die as they break the RPG element - it creates a whole new tree of advantages based on how much money you can spend in that game (don't come with the pure comestic and optional BS, if in your game all that's avaiable in the item mall are comestics, get ready, they will abuse you more and more in the future as they will want more profit) while it does not remove the time tree of RPGs, the more time you spend on character, the higher is your potential.
 

 

Since your argument is entirely based on a false premise and a clear statement that you do not want to hear anything other than what you have already decided upon, the only question left is :

Do you want to honestly discuss this or not?

 

Point of views are not static. Since I started playing MMOs my view on this has changed greatly as I experienced new games (and the evolution of old ones) and points of view. At that time I was against Monthly Fee models as I thought the idea of paying repeatedly to simply play a same game was unacceptable.

I do not expect the OP to remain the decision about this, you are free to argue about any of this, and that the objective of the discussion - this way we can all see and understand different points of view and perhaps learn something that we didn't know and/or change our point of view.

Of course you can also say this argument is entirely based on a false premise and a clear statement that people are susceptible to change their point of view.

I can see people are taking too seriously P2P and F2P models as a whole, but I believe these models cannot be treated as a whole anymore.

Most F2P criticism are about:

 - The lies of being free while it is actually Free to play, they never said it was free to be competitive, it is a marketing (which many people consider to be evil, tricky, devil contract, etc) strategy;

- About Item Malls, which may trick you in spending more money than you would ever believe you could be able to - it's an endless possibility and game updates will be directed in that way;

- About lower quality. And that is why they created this genre, which merely stands for "endless trial" as your trial for that game is not bound in time, but rather in content or competitivity in the game, as the game was full of great Pay to Play games and there has always been the crowd that wants to play for free as long as they want, the chance of these lower budget games to stand up against the current juggernauts was low. Unfortunately this opened doors to even lower quality/budget games which have created a horrible impression of the F2P genre.

Originally posted by WisebutCruel

Originally posted by EricDanie

I can see people are taking too seriously P2P and F2P models as a whole, but I believe these models cannot be treated as a whole anymore.

First, I know there is no such thing as free playing in these games, and there shouldn't be (in AAA titles) as they were developed for profit while offering you the fun to pay for them and commit yourself to long-term play.
 

 

Show me an example of a AAA FTP game. And nope, Guild Wars requires a box to be bought.

Atlantica Online.

I can see people are taking too seriously P2P and F2P models as a whole, but I believe these models cannot be treated as a whole anymore.

First, I know there is no such thing as free playing in these games, and there shouldn't be (in AAA titles) as they were developed for profit while offering you the fun to pay for them and commit yourself to long-term play. You will have to pay for it. What changes between these models is when, how much, and what you get for paying.

The rank is based on the potential costs from lowest to highest you should expect from these games on a short-time commitment.

2nd - Pay to Play - Costs: Monthly Fee
3rd - Pay to Play - Costs: Expansion/Retail One-Time Content Payments
4th - Pay to Play - Costs: Monthly Fee, Expansion/Retail Content One-Time Payments
1st - Free to Play - Costs: Monthly Fee
5th - Free to Play - Costs: Item Mall
6th - Free to Play - Costs: Item Mall, Monthly Fee

Based on this, I ask you to understand my point of view, my subdivision of these major models, and why Item Malls should die.

My point of view on this is that I truly hate Item Mall games and believe they should die as they break the RPG element - it creates a whole new tree of advantages based on how much money you can spend in that game (don't come with the pure comestic and optional BS, if in your game all that's avaiable in the item mall are comestics, get ready, they will abuse you more and more in the future as they will want more profit) while it does not remove the time tree of RPGs, the more time you spend on character, the higher is your potential. You CANNOT remove that and still call that game a RPG as the nature of the RPG element is to offer persistent character development which evolution - be it in any combination of the following forms: skills (be it in quantity or quality), gear, levels, area exploration, difficulty progression, etc, and it is where the fun of the RPG element resides. Obviously games which force you to reach a certain progression range in order to achieve the other major PvE or PvP elements of the game that are the fun and replayability of it may fail when they don't offer low range options for it, this is not the point of this discussion though.

The point here in the post it to show how Item Malls will make this even more complex, games are not meant to be easy or there is no challenge, and with it comes the difficulty increase in order to meet the expectations of people who spend a certain average in the Item Mall which will impact the ones who are below it and will force them to spend more - this is the inevitable point of failure of an Item Mall game. It is too hard to keep a line there, and that line will eventually break as new content is released with more item mall stuff in quantity and quality.

Item Mall games will persuade you with an endless relation of persuading you into buying more and more, that is why they are devilish and since we are in capitalism, its obvious priority is to increase profit - this is the endless circle that will make you suffer.

Anyway I hope you understand it, I am only against the Item Mall feature in games while I prefer Monthly Fees and Pay for Content options (older content often goes cheaper or even free in these games, you will not see that happen in Item Mall games though).

Please feel free to comment and discuss the quality of this article and the idea of the discussion itself.
 

People will eventually carry comparisons to EVE simply because both are sci-fi MMORPGs (don't know about you but first thing I do when searching for a MMO is determining the "when" it is based), allowing you do take any role and explore a huge universe, engage in battles for one of the main factions in the game or just create your own pirate corporation.

Differences I've seen are the control system and the skill system. EVE failed when it started taking too long to develop into the area you wanted to play, and failed epically when even if you want to do only one thing it takes too long to get properly trained for it.

Anyway, I look forward this game. EVE feels like a monopoly, there is no real competition like in the Fantasy MMO P2P or F2P genre. Don't take the differences of the games too deeply, because each game is unique yet they share a same market.

You should do a bit of research on China's laws.

They are not a democracy as we know, their ideas are a bit different, you will see so on many of their rules which would be completely unaceptable on the rest of the world. This is just one of them.

I would not be impressed if they had some "any characters on X game with over Y amount of wealth or Z number of equipments will be punished and lose their wealth".

Adults are responsible for their actions, MMOs have nothing besides bits and virtual information that tie you to the game, it's not like drugs or smoking, that have chemical effects causing dependency and also negatively impacting your health long-term.

Kids and teenagers, well, the parents and school are responsible for their education. If they have not learned or been shown anything else to do besides playing computer games, the parents are to blame if they just do the only thing they know to have fun.

No, I wouldn't want my kids bothering me every 5 minutes asking for something in this game's marketplace.

A MMO city builder, I've been dreaming about that since Sim City 2000.

I can't wait to try it.

I've been curious about this game, guess I'll give it a try even though it gets a bad first impression for me because IT HAS NO ALCOHOL!

I believe it doesn't matter if its for kids as long as you have FUN, a feeling that is being lost on most MMOs when you play it because of your assets in the damn virtual game instead of the fun you have.

I haven't read everything, only OP and a few of the first page posts, but I'd like to share my opinion on this.

MMORPGs fight a dilema. The RPG aspect of the game is about a persistent character and the easiest way to give this persistent idea, are levels, gear, skills, whatever, things that you will acquire over time, not be born with, and constantly evolve. This is the fun of RPGs - the character. Also that is the reason most people get "glued" in their game, you have a virtual asset you are dedicating time into, some people will eventually play a game because of that and not because of the fun, and that is when they are getting addicted in a dangerous way, up to the point of Real Life "damage" which should be your true RPG to be "played".

Then you have the idea of non-RPG games like RTS, FPS, that are all about stepping in a game room, play it and have fun, and that's it. These games have no idea of persistent characters and are the more casually recommended.

The korean MMORPGs everyone rants so much about, are the MMORPGs with the RPG in its extreme, raw, form. The fun is in spending time and developing your character, to the inimaginable. The problem people find is that instead of the western MMOs, their form of endless content is exactly by slowing your pace through the content.

But well, games are "srs bsns" (serious business) for those that develop them. So, we've seen different MMOs with different mixes of the RPG and the non-RPG aspect of the games to appeal to the market. There is no "best", but what appeals to "most". You could say World of Warcraft has the winner combination so far, simply because of the subscription numbers, but then you have many other very succesful games mixes around, such as Guild Wars, EVE, FFXI, and the ones that derivate from currently sucessful mixes, like an investment, you want the least risk possible or you may succumb like Tabula Rasa, Auto Assault, and other games.  

But you will never see a RPG in which you can directly head in the end-game content (and with no disadvantages), or will rarely see one, otherwise all the basic hierarchy and progression is broken - it's not a RPG, they are lying to you. RPGs have a tree of development, be it long or short and fast or slow.

Even games like Guild Wars and Chronicles of Spellborn that reduce level impact as much as it can get nowadays require you to climb a tree, and development will increase that tree size, which will obviously make it take more time for those that are just starting, but then they can reduce the difficulty and time it takes, but you will never be able to SKIP the path.

The sound makes me feel like in a great single-player RPG.

This combat system is the most innovative feature in MMOs since Guild Wars skill system.

I am not one of those that feel good one-hitting others because of my gear supremacy.

Graphics are just fine, not a new standard or anything, but has a nice balance of quality and balance, sometimes perfection relies on simplicity.

This is a MMORPG that has set a new border line on how far a MMORPG can go near the FPS competitivity. And RPG and FPS are pretty anthagonic, if you give power for the persistent characters in the form of gear or levels, you relatively take away the competitivity.

Don't force yourself to do the quests if you don't like them. Just go on. It's not like the next area monsters will one hit you or something because you are undergeared for that area, you just gotta know how to use your skills avaiable and learn how to kite monsters constantly.

If you hate boar quests, wait until you meet the children in this game... first the riddle quest and then the toys quest.

CCR is finnaly making a decent move and showed us an AWESOME RF Online website, now THAT is an informative and resourceful website.

Here is a Striker 55 gameplay video at CWs, the new server will be even better than this.

clickhere

In your face. Guild Wars got recognized.

Why is Guild Wars considered a MMORPG while its developers consider it a CORPG? Simply because of the fact it would be unique to the genre. But nevertheless it's still a MMORPG, because any contest would have to include "BEST CORPG OF THE YEAR" award. You don't want that, do you? Most of you won't want anything that cannot be awarded to EVE or WoW anyway. Most understand though, that Guild Wars is closer to a MMORPG-genre than a RTS, FPS, etc.

Sorry if this was a bit too harsh, but you will have to survive the fact that Guild Wars is a good game and deserves its award. Yep, no EVE or WoW for this one. The Editors have their own opinions as these awards are not based on popularity, but instead on an active game, with excellent gameplay and graphics, a respectable following, and contributed to the genre. You can't say Guild Wars isn't one of the most innovative games of 2005/2006 (considering their chapters, too).