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All Posts by azzamasin

All Posts by azzamasin

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Originally posted by daltanious
Originally posted by MrMelGibson
Originally posted by Xssiv
I'd much rather have less active abilities with the option to swap abilities out to accommodate various play styles / roles as opposed to just using the same 15-20 abilities day in and day out. 

I completely agree with you.  But, lets be honest.  You wouldn't even be using the 15-20 abilities.  To maximize whatever role you are filling, you would use the most optimal rotation which would most likely use 8-10 abilities at most.  Or in games like WoW Rift.  You can use 2 macros for all those abilities.

 

Obviously you have never played Wow or Rift.

Well he actually meant 1 macro.

 

And I did play both and yes you could successfully do endgame with 1 macro in each.

Originally posted by Solar_Prophet

Originally posted by Seelinnikoi

Too little, too late.

Path of Exile is a thousand times better and free.

Sure, if you like mediocre graphics, crippling desync issues due to shoddy netcode, an unnecessarily convoluted skill tree, a godawful 'crafting' system, gender locked classes, and gear drops which are even worse than D3's original loot system, then I guess it is better.

Originally posted by Redcor
So they are charging $40 to give us a game we already paid $50 for ? What a great bizz to be in when you can sell a lame game and then charge $40 a head for the fixed version down the road. Bravo. I could see maybe 19.95 at best but no more than that.

Oh please. You got what you paid for. Drop the ridiculous entitlement garbage and start acting like an adult. Furthermore pretty much every 'fix' will be implemented in the base game for free.

As to 'loot 2.0 being a joke', I'd hate to break it to the person who said that, but the response to it from non-trolls has been overwhelmingly positive so far, plus it's still very much in a beta state & will be adjusted accordingly.

Then again, you're probably one of those people who bought the best possible gear on the AH, went farming, then complained that you're not getting any upgrades for what is already fantastic gear. The irony being of course, that in order to be placed on the AH it must have been dropped in the first place...

While Desync is an issue they are working on it isn't as huge a deal as some make it out to be as long as you stay away from certain skills.  As for GFX, they are amazing and very reminiscent of Diablo 2's gritty style not the Colorful WoW'esque of D3.  So it pulls on the heartstrings of the avid D2 player.  The skill tree, GodAMAZING crafting system and Reliance on Bartering and economy is what makes the game a hundred times better then Diablo 3.  I suppose if you like boring skill choices with hardly any deviation and ZERO customization and Microwave generation Loot nao mentality I could see D3 vbeing better but anyone who enjoys D2 for what it was then might I suggest you take a peek at POE. 

For the life of me I can't fathom why someone would play D3 over such an awesome game as Path of Exile.  I guess to each their own.
Originally posted by tom_gore

Hate all you want. EQN and EQNL will be a breath of fresh air to the stagnant MMO market. You can keep your WoWStar :)

 

While not the way I would of put it (I'm sure Id get banned again if I did LOL) I do echo your sentiment.  EQN is going to be a huge breath of fresh air in this genre and I for can not wait.

Originally posted by collekt
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by collekt

Originally posted by lizardbones Well, if you're going to stand there playing the whack-a-mole equivalent of a game of chess, then yes, 5 active skills are not going to cut it. If, on the other hand, combat requires some movement, switching weapons or skill sets during the fight and perhaps some sort of cover, then 5 buttons is more than enough. ** ** Oops, wrong thread. :-) **
So, you believe that you can't move around and use more than 5 skills? LOL.. Please open your eyes, because that is an incredibly short sighted assumption.

 

 

Let me preface this by saying that I don't play WoW anymore, and I'm not a fan of where they've taken the game. However, think about the fact that people play PvP in WoW and constantly move around, hide behind objects, etc. all while using ~30-40 abilities/macros. Now, I'm not saying this is optimal and that you need so many. I also understand that we aren't necessarily talking about PvP. However, I think it's safe to say that if I can anticipate other real players, move around constantly, and still not feel overwhelmed with abilities, then we can easily handle a few more than 5 while moving around.

 

Edit: Also, I've said it once and I'll say it again. With 5 abilities, there is very little room for players to differentiate themselves from better/worse players. Combat just devolves into a system where you know the sequence of attacks you're going to use before you even know what you're going to fight against. This system is boring, and I think we can handle something a little more complex.




One skill slot is enough to differentiate between good and bad players. A good player will use that one skill better than a bad player. The number of skill slots available is irrelevant to determine good and bad players.

I never said a player couldn't move around and use more than five skills. I'm not sure why you think I was saying that.

What I'm saying is that the premise that more than five active skills are required for a game to be good is just wrong. If that were true, every game would have more than five skills. Console controllers would have twenty active buttons, in addition to the joypads and joysticks.

The premise that five active skills are required for an MMORPG to be good is wrong as well. If the game is based around tab targeting and hot keys, then of course more hot keys are needed because that is the focus of the combat. On the other hand if the focus of the combat is something else, then a bunch of hot keys aren't needed.

The whole idea of many hot keys is good is based around the idea that there is only one scenario and one setup available for MMOs, and that's not true.

 

Well, this is all subjective so everything you're saying is wrong is just an opinion. You can't compare single player console games to a MMORPG on PC. I'm also not saying it's impossible to make a decent game that only uses 5 skills, but it does seem very boring to me for an MMORPG. 

To address your point that number of abilities is irrelevant though, I feel this is very wrong. Sure there will be better players even with fewer skills, but you think it doesn't take more thought when you have 25? I'm not saying you need 25, but this is just an example. If I need to choose the right skill to use at the right moment, it's more difficult to process 25 choices than 5.

Where is the fun in having access to every skill your class has?  Too me 95% of the fun is allotting which skill on my limited bar to use, having to make hard choices and sacrifice for the sake not only balance but in order to create the perfect complimentary of skills to use at a given time.  It revolves around choice, freedom and deckbuilding that makes RPG's so damn fun in the first place for me. 

Originally posted by evilastro
Originally posted by stealthbr
Originally posted by donpopuki
We shouldn't confuse form with function. I fear some are placing too much importance on the form of hotbars and triggering actions in the game with set skills. Try imagining a Street Fighter game built with a MMO UI and we can see how cumbersome it can be. In fact the hotbar as we know maybe on it's way out.

I highly doubt hotbars are on their way out simply because developers have yet to offer a more efficient and easier manner for a player to interact with his character's various abilities.

 

Plenty of single player RPGs have.  Dynamic skills that change based on how and when you use them. Do we really need a separate button for backstab? Shouldn't that just be what a normal stab attack becomes when you are behind an opponent?  Do you need a fire wall spell when you could just target your flame spell at the floor and create one?

MMOs are stuck in the past. We need to move on from 40+ skills (all clutter with little variation) and think outside the box.  Neverwinter actually went this way a bit with how skills changed when you used your special skills (stealth, holy charge, block, magic focus) but it could be taken a lot further.

Exactly.

 

Or at the very least I would prefer to see a Chronicles of Spellborne type of rotating hotbar where you had access to only a few skills at a time and it was up to the player to build their bars optimally.

Originally posted by olepi

I think limiting players in MMORPG's to 5 skills is ridiculous. The main reason to do it is because of the limitations of consoles, not because it is better for the game. There is just no way 5 skills could come close to what I do when playing an MMORPG.

Example: I'm playing LoTRO as a "utility" type class, a Lore Master. It is with utility classes that the limitation to 5 skills breaks down the worst. Skills I regularly use every fight:

  • Debuff -- slows enemy attack speed down 15%
  • Debuff -- reduces enemy melee damage
  • Debuff -- reduces enemy magic damage
  • Debuff -- reduces enemy resistances
  • Melee attack -- single target
  • Melee attack -- aoe sweep
  • Magic attack -- single target (burning embers)
  • Magic attack -- single target (gust of wind)
  • Magic attack -- aoe (cracked earth)
  • Magic attack -- single target with stun (Light of the rising sun)
  • Magic attack -- aoe (sticky gourd)
  • Stun -- single target
  • Stun -- aoe
  • Sticky Tar -- aoe slow area and +dmg taken
  • Heal -- single target heals health of ally
  • Heal -- heals power of ally
 
That's 16 abilities that I will regularly use in a fight, not even counting my pet, based on what is needed. That is the whole point of a utility class: that they have a lot of different abilities to choose from and can pop out the right ability at the right time. Limiting a player to 5 abilities is ridiculous.
 
Perhaps it makes some sense for a very specialized character, like a sword wielding fighter. How many different ways can you wield a sword anyway? But for a utility class, it is completely over-restrictive and destroys the whole concept of a utility class. The only reason to do it is because the consoles have such a crappy interface, at least for MMORPG's.

While 5 is too few IMO, having so many of those skills you list is silly when they can be condensed down to fewer buttons and gets the players eyes off the UI and onto the action.  I feel the sweet spot is between 8 and 12.  Any more and your diluting your toolset.  A carpenter doesn't use any more tools then necessary to finish the job.

 

4 debuffs? is 3 debuffs too many.  1 Attack for Single Target and 1 for AOE.  Magic or Melee not both.  CC and heals are best left to classes/players whose primary roles are CC and heals.

 

 

I vote other.

 

Combat, absolutely one of the worst and slowest combats in any game I ever played.  It literally looks like the animations are stuck in slow-mo.

Originally posted by Tamanous
I $ee the rea$on$ clearly my$elf.

More conspiracy's from you I see.

 

 

Or it could be that a majority of Hearthstone players are also MMO players.  I know because I am one.  I'm sure $$$ has something to do with it but I am almost certain it isn't the only thing.

Originally posted by Nephelai
Originally posted by azzamasin
Originally posted by Nephelai
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by Nephelai

The reason MMO's have a lot of abilities is because they have no aiming and they have to challenge the player in some way so that is how they do it. .

I am going to challenge this. Not because it's wrong but because I think it's not the whole story.

 

if you have 4 buttons, you...skillcap instantly. your character is simple and predictible. there's no room for much new and exciting ever coming out of your ... keyboard.

 

World of warcraft. raiding. 25mans. I have 27 keybinds. I use maybe 8 on a regular basis. What are the others? once-every-wo-weeks-for-that-one-fight-only-in-that-situation-only buttons. But when I push them...the effect is dramatic. stuff that others did not expect to come out of me suddenly happened in what others believed to be a lost situation.

 

ever developed a strategy around a 'hand of salvation' rotation? maybe you never needed to. maybe you dont even know what the hell that is. but maybe THAT ONE TIME FOR HAT FIRST KILL it was just enough to give you the edge.

 

that's the part your post might miss.

Firstly, I wasn't advocating for 4 buttons merely explaining why MMO's have more and you certainly don't skill cap thru buttons in an FPS when the primary difference is in your ability to aim. In MMO's probably, but as I said I wasn't advocating it just explaining why devs are taking that way. i.e. compatibility with consoles for more $$$.

 

Secondly, I've raided in WoW since 2004 and most of those gimmicky abilities we used to use hardly rate a mention now days. HoS probably see's more use in PvP to dump threat from summoned beast/pets/minions than in raiding but you wouldn't know that because you pulled some old example out of your butt to try and tell us all a story of how good you are.

 

Entirely untrue.  It isn't about money, it's everything about what the communities want.  Every single developer who speaks of limited hotbar, action combat say they want players looking at their surroundings not their UI.  Not because it makes them money.  Besides there are still games out and a few released not long ago that cater to these WoW'esque multi-hotbar, Tab Targetting combat.

Yes that's right its about what the communities they are trying to capture want, the consolers, the facebookers, which is about capturing more volume which is about money.

 

You are naive (or have never worked in a large Company) to think people in business don't structure what they say to INFLUENCE the customer while doing another.

 

Well that's funny because last I looked Neverwinter, GW2 and TSW are not on the console.  Care to explain your rationale then?

 

Because you're wrong, the reason why limited hotbar games come about was because the genre addapated and innovated and the demand was there for a more visceral combat.  Reminescent of old school RPG combat.

 

Again explain to me if your reason is the case when then has the majority of these limited Hotbar Combat games not been released to Console yet FFXIV and FFXI both feature multi-hotbar support and ARE on console.  It kind of proves your argument completely false.

 

It isn't about money, it is about the wants of the genre and there has been a shift to capture and encompass a certain playstyle.  A playstyle that only limited hotbar action combat can deliver.

Originally posted by Nephelai
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by Nephelai

The reason MMO's have a lot of abilities is because they have no aiming and they have to challenge the player in some way so that is how they do it. .

I am going to challenge this. Not because it's wrong but because I think it's not the whole story.

 

if you have 4 buttons, you...skillcap instantly. your character is simple and predictible. there's no room for much new and exciting ever coming out of your ... keyboard.

 

World of warcraft. raiding. 25mans. I have 27 keybinds. I use maybe 8 on a regular basis. What are the others? once-every-wo-weeks-for-that-one-fight-only-in-that-situation-only buttons. But when I push them...the effect is dramatic. stuff that others did not expect to come out of me suddenly happened in what others believed to be a lost situation.

 

ever developed a strategy around a 'hand of salvation' rotation? maybe you never needed to. maybe you dont even know what the hell that is. but maybe THAT ONE TIME FOR HAT FIRST KILL it was just enough to give you the edge.

 

that's the part your post might miss.

Firstly, I wasn't advocating for 4 buttons merely explaining why MMO's have more and you certainly don't skill cap thru buttons in an FPS when the primary difference is in your ability to aim. In MMO's probably, but as I said I wasn't advocating it just explaining why devs are taking that way. i.e. compatibility with consoles for more $$$.

 

Secondly, I've raided in WoW since 2004 and most of those gimmicky abilities we used to use hardly rate a mention now days. HoS probably see's more use in PvP to dump threat from summoned beast/pets/minions than in raiding but you wouldn't know that because you pulled some old example out of your butt to try and tell us all a story of how good you are.

 

 

Entirely untrue.  It isn't about money, it's everything about what the communities want.  Every single developer who speaks of limited hotbar, action combat say they want players looking at their surroundings not their UI.  Not because it makes them money.  Besides there are still games out and a few released not long ago that cater to these WoW'esque multi-hotbar, Tab Targetting combat.

Originally posted by Nephelai
Originally posted by azzamasin
Originally posted by Nephelai

The reason MMO's have a lot of abilities is because they have no aiming and they have to challenge the player in some way so that is how they do it. I'm not advocating MMO's introduce aiming as it just doesn't work with most people having +250ms latency and modifying the game (larger hit boxes, slower targets etc) defeats the whole point of skill in aiming.

 

Having said that, the shrinkage in MMO abilities is about new markets to capture $$$$ - its as simple as that. Console players don't have the hardware (nor most likely the trained muscle memory) for that many abilities.

While it sucks to game with that high a latency I would think the vast majority of gamers have much better interwebz now a days.  It is after all almost 2014.

2014 hasn't fixed people being on different continents (which is the MMO audience). Most FPS have country servers MMO's tend not to.

Well for them they should play on Servers in their countries, or if unable too then play one of the myriad other MMO's that cater to high latency.  But I do not, and I will not be held accountable for someone else's crappy internet when I spend $120 a month for my ISP service.  I have sub 35 ping and I enjoy games that allow me to make use of such god latency.

Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by Nephelai

The reason MMO's have a lot of abilities is because they have no aiming and they have to challenge the player in some way so that is how they do it. .

I am going to challenge this. Not because it's wrong but because I think it's not the whole story.

 

if you have 4 buttons, you...skillcap instantly. your character is simple and predictible. there's no room for much new and exciting ever coming out of your ... keyboard.

 

World of warcraft. raiding. 25mans. I have 27 keybinds. I use maybe 8 on a regular basis. What are the others? once-every-wo-weeks-for-that-one-fight-only-in-that-situation-only buttons. But when I push them...the effect is dramatic. stuff that others did not expect to come out of me suddenly happened in what others believed to be a lost situation.

 

ever developed a strategy around a 'hand of salvation' rotation? maybe you never needed to. maybe you dont even know what the hell that is. but maybe THAT ONE TIME FOR HAT FIRST KILL it was just enough to give you the edge.

 

that's the part your post might miss.

ROFL....Seriously ROFL.

 

Saying more hotbars makes it more skillful is absolutely the silliest thing I've read on the internet today.  I suppose you've never played a game like Path of Exile, League of Legends, StarCraft 2, or any number of other genre's that have limited number of skills to press.

 

There's absolutely zero proof that 27+ keybinds equates to more skill.  Nor does 4 keybinds make it easy it easy to skillcap.

 

 

 

LOL.

 

 

Seriously good one mate.

 

 

I'd bet you a million dollars you couldn't make it past Cruel Difficulty in Path of Exile and it has 5 keybinds.

Originally posted by Nephelai

The reason MMO's have a lot of abilities is because they have no aiming and they have to challenge the player in some way so that is how they do it. I'm not advocating MMO's introduce aiming as it just doesn't work with most people having +250ms latency and modifying the game (larger hit boxes, slower targets etc) defeats the whole point of skill in aiming.

 

Having said that, the shrinkage in MMO abilities is about new markets to capture $$$$ - its as simple as that. Console players don't have the hardware (nor most likely the trained muscle memory) for that many abilities.

While it sucks to game with that high a latency I would think the vast majority of gamers have much better interwebz now a days.  It is after all almost 2014.

Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by Dren_Utogi

just LOL. Just LOL.

 

Neverwinter , 5 main skills.  Very fun game.

but it's failing, which was the point of the thread.

No Neverwinter is doing just fine.  It is marketed as a niche title that caters to a select type of gamer who is interested in Dungeon Crawling and unlimited adventure.  Which is the reason I still play.  Not to mention theres never a shortage of  players to form groups for dungeons.  It was never meant to be a Triple-A blockbuster MMO.  It does what it does very nicely.

Originally posted by mistmaker
Originally posted by reckoner2
Originally posted by Xssiv
I'd much rather have less active abilities with the option to swap abilities out to accommodate various play styles / roles as opposed to just using the same 15-20 abilities day in and day out. 

False Dichotomy, you can still swap out abilities and have 15-20 active. The two concepts aren't mutually exclusive.

I have yet to see a strong argument for fewer skills, I swear if Wildstar came out and capped you at only 1 hot bar key, people would blindly defend it like they are the current #. I saw the same thing in TSW where they said anything more than 7 would ruin the game, suddenly 10 is perfect for this new game etc.. 

 

gw1 was fun with 8 (?) skills. because the combat was fun and animations fluid.

tsw had problems with animations and the combat/skills werent great

gw2 i never liked being bound to specific weapons and the need to swap them to use different skills

 

so i think what really matters isnt the number of skills, but the combination of skills/animations/gameplay and this i can only say after i played the game.

WInner Winner Chicken Dinner.

 

Although to be fair even though I hardly play GW2 any more it still is a relatively popular game.  My issues with their combat was not in the number ok skills used but in the archaic notion that skills "must" be tied to weapons with no freedom of choice.

 

The whole reason I enjoy limited hotbar, Reticule based, Action combat is because first it is more visceral and secondly because it promotes a deck building "choice" in what skills to use and what to place on your hotbar.  GW2 doesn't do this with weapon skills and If you look at my post history you'll notice way back then I even said this was a mistake.

 

I currently play Neverwinter and Path of Exile as my MMO/ARPG of choice and both offer the freedom of choices in building your skillset but not do so in a unique and different way.  There's no way I can ever go back to the fluffy and ubiquitous multi-hotbar supported game.  It removes all notion of skill and removes player choice.  Not to mention it promotes horrible game design with players watching cooldowns and skills instead of their surroundings, causing many a wipe in parties and raids.  IMO multi-hotbar only works in a true turn-based style of game.

Originally posted by Tamanous
Originally posted by azzamasin

The days of multi-hotbar combat is dead my friend. 

 

Anyone who thinks that having access to so many abilities knows nothing about how to balance and build a successful and fun game.  Especially considering that the on average only a handful of those skills get used a majority of time.  Not only that anyone who enjoys playing whack-a-mole with their hotbars is deluding themselves in thinking it is any more skillful.

Utterly and completely false and based upon assumptions.

 

Many mmos based on pc will have many hotkeys from now and into the future. It depends on what sort of game they are trying to make. CU will have many hotkeys because it is trying to attract old school mmo players and dedicate it's design for pc gaming. It is an important selling point for many of the contributors and for pc gamers in general.

 

Do not think that pc and console markets are so easily bridged. Genre will drive indie development as they must choose their audience carefully. Games will always offer choices between combat systems depending on what they are designed for and this will always differ between pc and consoles. You cannot have certain levels of combat complexity within various genres by restriction hotkeys simply because you want portability to console.

And CU is not a big budget Triple-A game.  Thanks for proving my point.

Originally posted by coretex666
Originally posted by azzamasin

The days of multi-hotbar combat is dead my friend. 

 

Anyone who thinks that having access to so many abilities knows nothing about how to balance and build a successful and fun game.  Especially considering that the on average only a handful of those skills get used a majority of time.  Not only that anyone who enjoys playing whack-a-mole with their hotbars is deluding themselves in thinking it is any more skillful.

Any active or former WoW player would like to comment on this?

I find it rather amusing.

I played WoW for 6 years.  Mains were a Druid, Shaman, Warrior and finally a DK.  On average I rarely used more then 7-9 skills in a fight.

Originally posted by JemAs666
If mobs lived longer than ~10 seconds in modern MMOs, having more skills might make sense.  In the current MMO this is not the case and people only use 1 to 5 skills.  Lets face it, most people don't pay attention enough these days to play a game that involves 15-20 skill rotations.  They are too involved with watching TV, sitting on the toilet, or eating to waste time paying attention to more than mashing 1-5 on their keyboard.  In the EQ days the average player didn't have resources to have 9 monitors with 5 games going on at the same time, watching youtube, hulu, netflix, porn, and  25 different websites opened all at the same time.

I'd love to see someone do those things playing Path of Exile while mapping in level 74 maps or Merciless Dominus.

The days of multi-hotbar combat is dead my friend. 

 

Anyone who thinks that having access to so many abilities knows nothing about how to balance and build a successful and fun game.  Especially considering that the on average only a handful of those skills get used a majority of time.  Not only that anyone who enjoys playing whack-a-mole with their hotbars is deluding themselves in thinking it is any more skillful.

 

15-20 skills is 7-12 skills too many.  It is extremely hard for the average gamer to commit to muscle memory more then 8 skills.  This is a fact, so what ends up happening is that the majority of those who plays these multi-hotbar games will click the majority of those keys which makes them constantly look at their hotbar instead of their surroundings.  Face it how many times do you see people standing where they aren't supposed to?  I guarantee you it's because those people are watching their hotbars instead of their surroundings and fail to recognize when they are standing in fire or other ill-effects.

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