Originally posted by HighMarshal

Has any full open world PvP games ever survived? Most crash and burn after release, while the rest slowly fade into........

Oblivion!

LOL WTF

Ultima Online would like a word with you, friend.  Still kickin' after 15 years.

EvE Online too.

Also Darkfall and Mortal.

In fact, I can't think of a single Open PvP game that has ever been shut down for lack of players/money.  Only one was Darkfall 1 and that's just because they wanted everyone playing the sequel.

Originally posted by topographic

Can you imagine ESO with the gameplay of the ES series?

Thousands of people running around spamming chat with, "What do I do next?"

It would be a nightmare.

What?  No one would ever say that cuz quest markers.

I get why people think ESO should be a PvE sandbox based on the SP TES games.

However, I think TES is more akin to a PvP sandbox, or more pertinent: a PvP SandPark.  There are quests and storylines that are usually absent in sandbox.

As for PvP, one of the hallmarks of TES games is that you can attack anyone, anywhere at any time and take all the stuff on their body if you kill them.

It would make MORE sense to have this apply to both NPCs and Players in game.

Remember also they would have to add in-game justice systems to make sure it wasn't a massive gank-fest.  Fines of gold, experience, skillpoints, jailtime, and even, permadeath maybe in a public execution if you are caught being super evil.

While NONE of those things would make the game POPULAR, it would certainly make a lot more SENSE than what they have now.

Originally posted by Maelwydd

Originally posted by Holice

Why does everyone keep comparing single player games to MMO's? This is the exact same mentality that hurt TOR with the KOTOR devoted.

 

You have think long term longevity. If they faction lock some zones it forces you to roll those factions to experience the full game and thus, adds more play time with "different" content. Otherwise, you just steam roll through the other zones, or never really experience the zone by not questing there.

 

There will still be plenty of content that allows cross faction intermingling and more than likely plenty of high level content to keep you busy. But let's be patient and at least wait for them to release some more information before we grab the pitchforks and light the torches.

So let me put your logic into numbers...

Lets say each faction zone has 100 quests each zone.

With faction lock you get 100 quests in your faction zone. Then on your first alt you get another 100 quests. And if you create a 3rd alt another 100 quests. For a total of 300 quests.

Correct so far?

OK so now you remove faction lock. The walls are no longer there so you can now do all quests in each of the now unlocked faction zones with 1 character. For a total of 300 quests.

How exactly does faction lock give you more content because either my maths is way off or it doesn't.

 

So while we don't know exactly what content there will be, the fallacy that splitting everything gives you more content is false.

It's nice to see people who aren't complete morons in this comments section.  Welcome to the vast minority Maelwydd.  We are outnumbered by morons, get a helmet.

Originally posted by wordiz

Faction lock makes sense to the games story. With the options we'll have at end game to explore the other territories, or hopefully even switch factions if you desire, I think it will make a lot more sense. It also builds realm pride, and creates competition. 

PLEASE ZENIMAX, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DO NOT BEND!!!

 

Cool.

Wrong, wrong wrong and wrong.

See above.

"Of course, there are gameplay reasons to go this route, too. On the RvR side of things, it helps make the enemy much more easily identifiable, especially when there are three factions all colliding. If I know that High Elves are only part of the Aldmeri Dominion, that helps me identify targets in a chaotic battle."

All the races are pretty much the same under armor.  Aside from Argonians and Khajiit there will be no major identifying factors between races during a battle.  All elves will be indistinguishable as will all humans.  Red is dead.  You are basically constantly fighting a battle where you are outnumbered 2:1.

"Outside of the actual gameplay, it was a sense of ‘realm pride’ that kept the fight going and the rivalries hot in Dark Age of Camelot, and there’s no doubt in my mind that Zenimax Online is looking to recreate that in The Elder Scrolls Online."

So you want realm pride, but you want to lock races into factions and territory (aside from the 50+ option).  Despite what people assume, this actually counteracts realm pride (in TES, not in DAOC), because you are being forced to fight for your faction based on race.  You are essentially being drafted, and draftees statistically have a lot less pride for their military and its cause than volunteers.  You forget that the majority of people who play this game (people who have played TES before) will not be choosing a faction.  They will be choosing a race that they like from their TES experience and the faction is then assigned to them.  They will have no pride for their faction, just their race.  In the case of Orcs, Argonians and Khajiit there is NO reason why they would feel pride for an alliance with races that have scorned them, fought them, enslaved them and shunned them in the past.  Alliance pride is a myth in the case of ESO.

"It’s also helpful for TESO as far as balance goes. The Elder Scrolls series is known for having meaningful racial abilities and attributes, something not common in contemporary MMOs, but surprisingly seems to be a concept that Zenimax Online is fully embracing. Not only will characters have defining racial abilities, there are actually entire racial skill lines available to each race in the game. This can pose some serious balance issues if you allow completely freeform race selection."

Actually, this also has the opposite effect, if any race can join any faction and/or have the option to be neutral (either mercing up for PvP or not being able to access it at all) then the balance is 100% guaranteed.  We don't just have racial perks in ESO, we have racial trees.  Therefore, racial trees will likely be RPS'd with other races, that means it won't actually matter what races are in what factions, balance will occur naturally and if not, entropy will occur naturally.  That's how RvR works, via entropy.  Also, you have to consider that due to the way races are divided up (basically by being neighbors, shoe-horning DAOC's system into Elder Scrolls with no regard for the actual lore) Ebonheart Pact is, across the board the most popular faction (holding 41% of the votes in a polling sample of 10,000 people collected on the ESO forums): http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1451421-faction-polls/page__p__22456174__hl__faction%20poll__fromsearch__1#entry22456174

Therefore, you have imbalanced the factions simply by making them race-based in the first place, as Dunmer and Nords are some of the most popular races in TES.  Even if the other two factions band together to fight the Pact, we will still have an imbalance of 60/40.  They won't feasibly be able to anyway since red is dead.  So the only way to actually balance it is to force team balance within the campaigns.  That's all fine and dandy but they could alleviate all of this by starting everyone as neutral and letting them decide as individuals who they want to fight for, if anyone.

"In fact, when I first speculated on the notion of having racials in TESO, it almost looked to me like the arrangement of races per faction seemed to break down in a way where you could read into potential gameplay biases on a faction to faction basis. For example, the Aldmeri Dominion could be squishier overall, but may be capable of dealing higher damage. I don’t know if this is exactly how things will play out, but I could see each faction being defined not only by its lore but by these sorts of gameplay attributes.  Limiting race options allows you to offer distinct and meaningful races for each faction, because you always know what the potential makeup is for that faction, which is much friendlier for balance purposes."

You honestly think these factions are defined by lore?  Have you even read any of the so-called "lore" they've trotted out here to justify the fact that they just grabbed three races in close proximity and smashed them together, then shoe-horned the lore in later?  They also do not have a good balance in terms of archetypes.  Reguard and Orsimer are Warriors and Bretons are Mages.  No thieves for DC.  Altmer are mages and Bosmer and Khajiit are thieves.  No warriors for AD.  EP is the only one that has the three archetypes covered again making them imbalanced.  Granted these limitations have never been concrete in TES but if we're just going by what other TES games have established as racial traits, there it is.

"I can completely appreciate the sense of disappointment I’ve been seeing from gamers, but I have a feeling this is one MMO compromise that may just pay off in the grand scheme of things. It may feel restrictive at first, but perhaps the pros will outweigh the cons once we can jump in and see it all for ourselves. Maybe I’m putting too much faith into Zenimax Online here, but I don’t think we’ve got the full picture just yet. While it’s a subject worth discussing to be sure, I’d encourage anyone who is skeptical at this point to give Zenimax the benefit of the doubt here, at least for now."

If by "pay off" you mean "backfire miserably" then yes, we are in agreement.  Matt Firor and his team are doing the only successful thing they know how to do: make DAOC.

I hope they turn things around, it certainly seems like they are trying but if they want this game to not be become Testanic they have a LOT of work to do on a LOT of fronts.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Entinerint

Originally posted by MMOExposed

Originally posted by kostoslav
What makes CU a Titan? In this stage CU is a make believe story.

This is what I am feeling. We know so little about this game. Hard to make such a vs thread off of paper hype. Seems silly in a way.

True, but I'm just asking which has people more excited or interested, not whether one is vaporware or not.

Don't you think those two questions are linked?

People may not be interested in vaporware. (Personally i don't).

Right, so then they would vote for ESO and explain why in the comments.  This isn't rocket science guys.

Originally posted by MMOExposed

Originally posted by kostoslav
What makes CU a Titan? In this stage CU is a make believe story.

This is what I am feeling. We know so little about this game. Hard to make such a vs thread off of paper hype. Seems silly in a way.

True, but I'm just asking which has people more excited or interested, not whether one is vaporware or not.

Apologies for the double thread, putting it here is a much better solution for sure.  Should have thought of that in the first place /derp.

Thanks to Varross for taking care of it.

Originally posted by Wakygreek

Originally posted by Entinerint

Originally posted by Wakygreek
Duplicate thread, please close this down / edit* same post different forum

It's in both to find a concensus without confirmation bias.

Hrm, guess it should just go to the main general discussion since it deals with two games, huh?

I didnt realize it was in a different forum, I thought it was double posted that was my bad. But yeah I think this would be best put in the general discussion forum. My 2 cents

I'll see about petitioning a moderator about it.

Originally posted by waynejr2

Originally posted by Entinerint

Originally posted by topographic

I don't think we should compare a fully-funded game that is playable with an unfunded game that is essentially "on paper" except for a questionable tech demo and some other videos that are nothing more then PowerPoint slides.

It's a little early for a comparison.

Fair enough, was just curious to see how people were feeling at this stage.

 How does wording such as Rigid class system vs A well-rounded design seem like a balanced setup?  Seems like you are biasing this in favor of ESO.

Am I wrong?  I'll for sure edit it if there's evidence to the contrary.

Also those aren't comparative.  The Well-rounded design is compared with CU's PvP focus, not with the class system.  Well-rounded isn't necessarily a good thing, some people prefer a focused design, instead of a jack-of-all-trades.  I'll change the wording, to jack-of-all-trades.

EDIT: done

Originally posted by Wakygreek
Duplicate thread, please close this down / edit* same post different forum

It's in both to find a concensus without confirmation bias.

Hrm, guess it should just go to the main general discussion since it deals with two games, huh?

Originally posted by Eir_S

Originally posted by WellzyC

How can you not like Skyrim?

It has to be the Best RPG since FF7...

Well that explains a lot.  I thought FF7 was overrated.  Well, the characters anyway..

I prefer Skyrim to any Final Fantasy game really, FF7 was good for its time, but it really doesn't hold up like, say Morrowind does.

Well considering that TES is the second largest RPG franchise in the world, behind only Final Fantasy, I think you'll find yourself in the minority, frankly.

That said, I think it will be different enough that you might enjoy it but if you were to tell us more about why you dislike TES (aside from, it's too open and gives me too many options, because ESO will probably feel the same way) then maybe people could give you some constructive feedback.

Do you prefer a connect-the-dots or hub-based approach, or like a fully linear corridor experience?

I think if WoW if your favorite MMO you will hate this.  Unlike WoW you actually have to play this game and pay attention, you can't just macro your way through it while watching TV.

It's also hilarious to me that you like Oblivion most, Skyrim second and Morrowind least, which is usually the exact opposite of what most people say.  This makes me start smelling troll...hehehe.

Originally posted by topographic

I don't think we should compare a fully-funded game that is playable with an unfunded game that is essentially "on paper" except for a questionable tech demo and some other videos that are nothing more then PowerPoint slides.

It's a little early for a comparison.

Fair enough, was just curious to see how people were feeling at this stage.

Originally posted by Sornin

Originally posted by Tayah
3 things that ruin an mmo for me. The phasing, instancing, and mega server are all reasons I can't see myself buying ESO.

Exactly. I hope ESO does well, but it is not for me because the ongoing conflict means nothing. It is all instanced, so there is no pride, no reason to take a huge interest. It is a game, not a war.

I feel like that too about the war, it will end up feeling like GW2 where it's more of a sport than an actual meaningful fight.

But will CU's engine be able to handle hundreds, possibly thousands of people fighting in one area?

I'm very excited to see 3-way RvR making somewhat of a comeback, but I am having a tough time deciding between CU and ESO to lend my support.  Sure, I could support both, but I really want to just get lost in one.

Two games in development with RvR at their core design.  Curious to see which people are more drawn to. Let me know if this should go in general discussion.

ESO:

- Big budget (approx 300 million)

- Huge team (250+ devs)

- DAOC and Ultima Online Legacy (Matt Firor and Paul Sage, respectively)

- Highly customizable class-based skill system with separate weapon and racial trees

- Corporate overhead (non-indie)

- Possible money-only motivation (debatable)

- Possible release late 2013 early 2014

- Massive, storied franchise spanning almost 20 years of games, arguably the most popular SP RPG franchise to date, save maybe for Final Fantasy

- A jack-of-all-trades design, with lots of outlets for PvE, crafting as well as PvP

CU:

- Small budget (approx 5 million)

- Small team

- DAOC and Warhammer Online Legacy (Mark Jacobs)

- Rigid class system with specfic crafter class

- Indie game (little/no overhead)

- Passion-driven

- Release could still be a few years away

- Single spiritual ancestor in DAOC with no franchise attachment

- Fully PvP focused design