Originally posted by Amstrup

So, after 5 years in the legendary world of azeroth, i wanted to try something eles. So i tried Lotro,AoC,War,FE,RoM but none of them had it right. Why is wow the only game with smooth combat, with flueting movments and such. Every other game feels like lag compard to wow.

What a game need to be sucssesfull is among tons of stuff(see below)

1 - Smooth/fast combat

2 - Fluent movement.

Any1 else experienced this ?

I have to say Combat in Age of Conan is smooth and fast as well.  Plus with no auto-attack, you have to pay attention and attack the mobs according to what portion of their body they are protecting (as denoted by brackets).  All the animations were done with motion capture, even to the point that male and female characters swing weapons differently.

I think part of WoW's initial appeal was the low system requirements, the game could be played well on a wider range of PC's.  Combine that with continuing the storyline of Warcraft 3 and you had an instant hit.

I think the only thing Blizzard officially said is that the new MMO is not in any way related to Warcraft.  Personally I think a Starcraft MMO would be a great idea as there aren't that many scifi MMO's out there now.

Originally posted by Gyrus

Originally posted by DrowNoble
...

Yes you are correct US Law is not the same as international law.  However if the company is based in the US, the TOS will be bound by US Law for purposes of litigation or interpretation.  Sometimes it will even get specific as to say bound by the laws of <insert state name>.

As I stated above, the contract you electronically sign (by clicking I Agree) will be bound by US law typically or a specific US state.  Whichever is the case is listed in the TOS/EULA.  Obviously if you play an asian game, then the it will be bound by the laws of Korea (or where ever) in that case.

Not sure why you keep repeating "where I live" as if it's important somehow?  If the TOS is bound by the laws of the US and I live in the US, then I guess it is "where I live".   Credit Card companies handle business intertnationaly, but when it comes to disputes with the claims they will abide by the laws of the contract of the company's country of origin typically.  Again, as I said above, they have the option to refund you regardless depending on your credit score and how often you request refunds.

The no refund may be illegal in some countries, I can't dispute that.  However in US it isn't illegal.   So if you were a citizen of That Country , the MMO company wouldn't have to refund your money unless they themselves were based in That Country.  So it would then be up to the Credit Company to determine if they want to take  the loss and refund your money regardless.  This particular case would have nothing to do with the MMO company at all, since its about your Credit Company and their opinion of you.

Finally, yes they did violate the contract.  It clearly states, in plain simple terms, that you can't buy/sell igname virtual items for your own personal proft.  Both SOE and Mythic have taken people and companies to court winning judgements on this basis.  This is why you see people saying "I'm not selling you my 1000 gold, I'm charging you a fee to compensate me for my time in farming 1000 gold."  This is a legalese re-wording to try and get around the language of the contracts.  This is why the TOS is so dern long as the MMO company has to basically cover all the bases.  That would be like saying "I didn't shoot that person I just happened to fire a gun in a paritcular direction and someone happened to be standing there".    Changing the phrase doesn't change what happened. 

No.  Wrong again.

It depends on how I buy the game.

If I buy a box in a retail store 'where I live' (Australia) then I am under Australian law all the way.  In that case the law says that the importer is considered to be the manufacturer for most purposes unless the actual manufacturer has a place of business here.
(This is done to prevent companies attempting to avoid statutory warranties.)

The EULA / ToS then comes under the law as a 'ticket case'.  Covered that above.

If I buy the same game over the internet then yes, I am bound by the (consumer) laws of the country I buy the game from.
So, if I mail order a box from Germany then things can be different than if I bought the game over the internet as a download which is different again than if I buy from my local EB games store.

The thing is that EULAs can say what they like in terms of which country or state the contract operates under - that in itself is not legal in some countries.

US Contacts might work under US Law - but outside US borders it's a whole new ball game.
 

Oh, and show me those SOE and Mythic Court Cases (post links and / or case numbers) interested to see those.

 

Ok last chance here as apparently you don't understand it at all.

Sorry, but you are wrong again.  If the game is made in Korea, the  TOS will be worded to be  under Korean Software Laws.  When you click "I Agree" you are basically digitally signing a document saying  you will be bound by the laws of Korea in relation to this virtiual contract.  Will clearly state in the TOS where the document is legally bound to.  An example I gave was if it states "this document bound by the laws of <insert state name>" or whatever.  So even if you live in Australia, that will not matter as you signed a contract agreeing to be bound by the rules set therein.  Now if Australia somehow says that the TOS is null and void in the sovereignty of Australia, then the software can't be legally sold in Australia unless the TOS is changed to abide by Australian law.  If it does this, it will clearly state in the text "bound by the laws of Australia" or whatever particular province.

Even if you buy the game via digital download it still has a TOS you have to sign before you can download and/or install. 

Even if you live outside the US, if you sign a contract most countries will still consider it legally binding.  If they didn't then there would be no trade between countries, no contractors, no international sports, and any other numerous contracts that are done internationally.

The SOE suit was filed against ebay.  This came about when Everquest items and accounts were being auctioned off on ebay.  SOE argued that their TOS stated that items/chars in Everquest were SOE's property and not owned by the player.   Ebay tried to counter by saying the account was the property of the player, therefore they could sell whatever they wanted.  Originally Verant Interactive had filed the suit (original developer of EQ1).  Ebay essentially blew off VI until SOE as the publisher (who bought out VI) came in and added their own 2 cents to the mix.   SOE dropped the suit when EBay agreed to stop.  Not sure if any monetary damages were awarded as that information is usually kept closed to the general public.

Mythic's suit was similar to SOE's.  They asserted that their TOS was a legally binding contract that speicifically forbid the sale of ingame items as said items weren't the property of the player but Mythic. 

Both suits are rather old, about 8 years for SOE and I think 6 for Mythic.  

http://gucomics.com/comic/?cdate=2001021

http://gucomics.com/comic/?cdate=20010213

Couldn't find the links to the news reports on the suits, but I did remember that there were some webcomics made about them.  the above links are to the comics that were made about the SOE suits.  I know it's not much but all I could find in a few minutes.  :)

Originally posted by Pelaaja

Originally posted by DrowNoble

Strange that he mentioned WoW.  AoC had a very stable launch, no server queues, no crashes, etc.  WoW can't say the same as it had numerous problems intially that weren't resolved for weeks afterwords.  Stuck while looting bug?  Login Queues?  Disabling equipment rendering to reduce login server load?   Yep WoW had all those, AoC didn't.   Hmm, but AoC wasn't "finished or polished" still?    Riiiiight.

What are you smoking?

Or are you trying to change the history?

 I don't support posting to the forums of the games you don't play, but sometimes I do slip. Sorry for that.

AoC (in my experience from welcome back campaign 14-days) is very stable game today. Technically it works great and looks the same as normal MMOs do (I personally have never found it graphically superior, but maybe it's just because I've played their Dreamfall: The Longest Journey. It's a great story, btw.), bar the character movement that is not looking natural.

But the fact that it works today doesn't entitle anyone to try and write the history again. AoC launch was a disaster, only ones that might compete with it for the title "Worst launch in the history of MMORPGs" are AO and Darkfall.

Uh sorry to burst your bubble but AoC's launch was heralded as being very smooth.  Not just by me but by many magazines and gaming websites.   The only issue the game had was a memory leak that was fixed within a few weeks.  As memory leaks go, not everyone had trouble with it based on their particular PC configuration.  Dragon Age has a memory leak too, some people have trouble and some don't, all depends on what hardware they have.

Not trying to change history at all.. WoW did have issues at launch.  Servers were crashing, that isn't made up, I was there it happened.  Server queues were instituted to help with the server loads, I didn't make that up either.   The "stuck while looting bug" was all over the place as their server couldn't handle the load of everyone looting mobs.   They disabled armor rendering in the login screen for weeks to reduce stress on the login servers.   Ask anyone who played WoW from launch and unless their a rabid fanboy, they'll remember these issues.  This is why that in late 2004, Blizzard kept giving away free 1 day extentions because of all the problems WoW had at launch.  If you played at launch look at your account history, you'll see a lof of 1 Day adds around the end of '04.

Now AoC's launch didn't have those issues, in fact in the 1st week they added 9 servers to handle the additional load.  So no one playing at launch had to wait in queues or any other issues that would be related to servers at max load.  If you were there you'd know this yourself.

Don't ya just love contradictions?

First Lordbonezy says he doesn't have AoC then he says he actually did and played up til this year.  Uh, well which is it?  Still admits to hating Funcom apparently, but I guess doesn't hate them enough as he played AoC off and on up til this year.

Whether or not the OP got a refund isn't the point.  I said he wasn't entitled to a refund.  If he goes to his Credit Company and they decide he's been a long time customer who warrants special treament, that's their call.   Funcom, however, wouldn't have to refund his money as he isn't entitled to a refund.  Why he isn't has been stated numerous times, hopefully Lordbonezy doesn't have too much problems with the complex words used here and can re-read it if his memory fails him.

Finally, the Funcom hate he has comes out again as in true Bill O Fashion, spouts "facts" that have no basis in facts.  According to him Funcom is a dying company whose best employees have jumped ship.  So, umm, the "dying" company opens up a new center in Montreal, hiring dozens of new employees in the process to work on their next MMO, yet it's "dying".   Oh wait, must mean that if they work on another MMO that AoC is dying?  No wait, that doesn't work other companies have multiple MMO's going simultaneously.  Hmm..    Nope can't find any validity to the Funcom Is Dying statement at all.

Strange that he mentioned WoW.  AoC had a very stable launch, no server queues, no crashes, etc.  WoW can't say the same as it had numerous problems intially that weren't resolved for weeks afterwords.  Stuck while looting bug?  Login Queues?  Disabling equipment rendering to reduce login server load?   Yep WoW had all those, AoC didn't.   Hmm, but AoC wasn't "finished or polished" still?    Riiiiight.

Originally posted by Gyrus

Originally posted by DrowNoble

It seems some missed the point I was trying to make above.  I'll try to clear it up.

I think the problem we have here is that you assume everyone is you and works under the same rules and laws that you do.  We don't.  U.S. Law is not universal.

Yes, I know Mythic is not a Credit Card Company.  I was trying to point out that TOS/EULA are legally enforceable if push comes to shove (meaning, people go to court).

It's a contract.  But where it falls into contract law depends on local laws.

Whether or not the money is refunded is pretty much up to the credit company themselves.  If they find that you broke the terms of the TOS and lost your account due to that, they aren't required to refund your money.  However, if you have a good credit standing the credit company may take the loss and refund the money to keep you as a customer.  Captial One has such measures in place called their "No Hassle" policy.  An example of this is once per year I can make a phone call and ask that Captial One makes my minimum payment this month.  They take a small loss, but keep me happy as their credit customer.

Like I say... maybe where you live this is the case?
MMOs are international beasts.

Subscription fees are different products than say a defective TV.  Once you are charged the sub the product is delivered to you.  You can't "return" the game time, hence the no refund clause. 

If you are denied service you can get a refund in many places.  In some cases it might be a proportion.  But 'no refund' is actually not legal in some countries.

I doubt that the gold spammers would join forces and file a class-action lawsuit against an MMO company.  If you think about it, you'd have a bunch of people that would basically say "we knowingly violated the terms of a contract with <insert MMO Company> but regardless want our money back".  Don't think they'd get a good reception with that .

But did they violate the law or the contract?  As said earlier in this thread - they could argue that what they are selling is a service and their time.  I would love to see a Gold Farmer case in Australia for example - there are parts of the EULA/ToS that could well fall under a 'restrictive trade practice' which would not go well for the MMO company at all.

 

Yes you are correct US Law is not the same as international law.  However if the company is based in the US, the TOS will be bound by US Law for purposes of litigation or interpretation.  Sometimes it will even get specific as to say bound by the laws of <insert state name>.

As I stated above, the contract you electronically sign (by clicking I Agree) will be bound by US law typically or a specific US state.  Whichever is the case is listed in the TOS/EULA.  Obviously if you play an asian game, then the it will be bound by the laws of Korea (or where ever) in that case.

Not sure why you keep repeating "where I live" as if it's important somehow?  If the TOS is bound by the laws of the US and I live in the US, then I guess it is "where I live".   Credit Card companies handle business intertnationaly, but when it comes to disputes with the claims they will abide by the laws of the contract of the company's country of origin typically.  Again, as I said above, they have the option to refund you regardless depending on your credit score and how often you request refunds.

The no refund may be illegal in some countries, I can't dispute that.  However in US it isn't illegal.   So if you were a citizen of That Country , the MMO company wouldn't have to refund your money unless they themselves were based in That Country.  So it would then be up to the Credit Company to determine if they want to take  the loss and refund your money regardless.  This particular case would have nothing to do with the MMO company at all, since its about your Credit Company and their opinion of you.

Finally, yes they did violate the contract.  It clearly states, in plain simple terms, that you can't buy/sell igname virtual items for your own personal proft.  Both SOE and Mythic have taken people and companies to court winning judgements on this basis.  This is why you see people saying "I'm not selling you my 1000 gold, I'm charging you a fee to compensate me for my time in farming 1000 gold."  This is a legalese re-wording to try and get around the language of the contracts.  This is why the TOS is so dern long as the MMO company has to basically cover all the bases.  That would be like saying "I didn't shoot that person I just happened to fire a gun in a paritcular direction and someone happened to be standing there".    Changing the phrase doesn't change what happened. 

It seems some missed the point I was trying to make above.  I'll try to clear it up.

Yes, I know Mythic is not a Credit Card Company.  I was trying to point out that TOS/EULA are legally enforceable if push comes to shove (meaning, people go to court).

Whether or not the money is refunded is pretty much up to the credit company themselves.  If they find that you broke the terms of the TOS and lost your account due to that, they aren't required to refund your money.  However, if you have a good credit standing the credit company may take the loss and refund the money to keep you as a customer.  Captial One has such measures in place called their "No Hassle" policy.  An example of this is once per year I can make a phone call and ask that Captial One makes my minimum payment this month.  They take a small loss, but keep me happy as their credit customer.

Subscription fees are different products than say a defective TV.  Once you are charged the sub the product is delivered to you.  You can't "return" the game time, hence the no refund clause. 

I doubt that the gold spammers would join forces and file a class-action lawsuit against an MMO company.  If you think about it, you'd have a bunch of people that would basically say "we knowingly violated the terms of a contract with <insert MMO Company> but regardless want our money back".  Don't think they'd get a good reception with that .

Originally posted by Gyrus

Originally posted by DrowNoble
...

  If they ban a spammer account, the spammer can't just get his money back by whining to Visa.  Since it clearly states in the EULA or TOS that if you do this you get banned, and you clicked "I Agree", Visa legally wouldn't be obligated to refund your money.  ...

Totally wrong.

Visa do not care about ToS / EULA.

Do you seriously think Visa are going to employ several teams of lawyers (possibly in several countries) to check the EULA / ToS legality in both countries and check if the ban was valid?

No.

Besides the EULA / ToS is between the customer and merchant - nothing to do with the CC Association.

The CC Assoc has a contract with the merchant and another with the CC holder.

They will ask one question "Is the customer getting what they paid for?"

If the answer is "No." then it's "Give the money back.

 

If the MMO company then wants to take the Player to court (to recover costs of the backcharge) then that is up to them.  Nothing to do with the CC Assoc.

Actually, it's Totally Correct.

Mythic Entertainment, well before they got bought out by EA, went to court over the legality of their TOS/EULA and how enforceable it is.  Mythic won the suit as the other party settled out of court.  Now, if they felt they had a legal leg to stand on they wouldn't of caved in to Mythic's suit.  So the TOS is legally enforceable.  This isn't just for MMO's either, many software companies have electronic contracts that you "sign" by clicking "I Agree" to before installation.

A TOS is basically a contract, you agreed to the contract therefore both you and the company have to abide by the terms of the contract.  This is why sometimes after patches, the TOS pops up again and you have to click "I Agree".  Something changed so the company has to make you aware of it and give you the option to opt out.  However, subscription fees are non-refundable as always and are clearly stated that they are so.  Basically, you bought the time and it's spent.

Visa would care about a TOS/EULA to the point that when you dispute a charge, they do an investigation.  They will contact the company that charged you and inquire about the validity of the charge.  Since you basically "signed" a contract with the company agreeing that fees are non-refundable and if you violate policy you could lose the account, Visa wouldn't be under obligation to refund you anything.   Think of it this way,  you bought a car marked AS IS and then it breaks down a week later, the bank isn't going to forgive your loan just because you can't use the car anymore.

Pretty much Lordbonezy's credibility went out the window once he admitted he's never played AoC, hates Funcom and just generally wants them to fail.

This would be like me posting on the EQ1 forums about how much Everquest sucks, SOE sucks, or whatever, even though I haven't played it in over 5 years.  Don't think any EQ players would take me seriously either.

Anyhoo, the OP isn't entitled to a refund.  Very doubtful Visa would refund the money either.  When you dispute a charge, they do an investigation which includes contacting the party that charged you in the first place.  When Funcom tells Visa that the subscription fee was charged and is non-refundable, provides the documentation the OP clicked "I  Agree" to to prove that, Visa will deny the claim.  

Some people just hate Funcom.  Just like some hate SOE or Blizzard.  Doesn't matter what that company does or doesn't do, they will refuse to play their games and post everywhere their irrational corporate hate speech where ever they can.

Part of the problem is the companies are so reluctant to ban and then don't tell anyone anything specific.

I mean, it's really nice that Blizzard said they banned X accounts last week.  What server?  How many per server?  How much gold was recovered?  That's like saying "cops caught 100 criminals last week", doesn't tell you anything, doesn't make you feel better and doesn't help with crime.

This is probably why so many companies refuse to refund subscriptions paid.  If they ban a spammer account, the spammer can't just get his money back by whining to Visa.  Since it clearly states in the EULA or TOS that if you do this you get banned, and you clicked "I Agree", Visa legally wouldn't be obligated to refund your money.  It's like if you buy a car that is sold "AS IS" and it breaks down a week later, try telling me the bank would just forgive your loan.   Riiiiight.

Another problem is MMO's are international.  The way the Chinese internet is set up there is a lot of proxy use so you usually can't ban by IP address.   The farmers use that to their advantage to avoid detection.

You really need to clamp down hard on gold farmers or else they'll spread like a virus and then you have 10X the work to do to try and get rid of them.  Ban the account once, if Joe Spammer makes another account and spams again, ban that credit card.  Continue until the spammer has no more recourse and goes under.

Originally posted by LordBonezy

Originally posted by DrowNoble

First off, subscription fees are non-refundable.  They always have been.  They (probably) always will be.  Says clearly in the TOS you clicked "I Agree" to login that the fees are not refundable.  So trying to get your fee back was pointless.

Second, when I took advantage of the new subscription plan it didn't bill me til my current cycle ended.    I did the the helm right away, though the extra vet tokens didn't show up til my cycle began again.

 

Wrong, If and only if you are into the subscription. In this case the new sub doesn't begin until 2010. Non-refundable applies to already inside subscription period billings. Funcom is of course trying to hold onto every $ they can and they have no shame or good reputation to hang onto. Thankfully they don't do more in the world than make poorly implemented games that have good graphics, i.e. like handel real money transactions like Visa. Visa did the right thing for the consumer in this instance which is exactly what ethically an impartial party would have decided, and what legally a court case would have entitled the consumer too as well.

Sorry LordBonezy, but YOU are wrong.
 

The OP was complaining that he was charged, since he was charged he IS in the new subscription cycle.  Therefore, He is Not Entitled To A Refund.  Period.  He already received the product, vet rewards in this case, so cannot get a refund.  No If's And's or But's about it.   You can try to spin this however you want, that doesn't change the simple fact that he didn't "accidently" subscribe (I already posted that's not possible), he already is in his new cycle and he already received his product (game time and vet tokens).

Your irrational Funcom Hate does nothing to validate or support your erroneous arguments. 

Funcom didn't do anything wrong, immoral, shady or whatever.

FEES are NOT refundable.  Period.  You clicked "I Agree" to that when you log in to the game.  Not sure why you think you are entitled to a refund regardless.  It's not like you can accidently click a button and sub for a year by mistake.  You had to login to the master account, you had to click on subscriptions, you had to check which one you wanted, etc.

They are doing a promotion now for veteran rewards.  If you pay for X months you'll get some ingame rewards.  You now have these rewards, so quit complaining about it cost you $35.  You KNEW that when you subscribed.

Originally posted by Piewacket

How can NcSoft be 100% sure you bought gold with r/l money. With in our clan there are loans, gifts, rewards all the time in adena and we talk about them in Vent, so no log of those transactions and why would be in game as reference. Also, there is the abiltiy to scam people so if you look for something being sold at a very high price, you ban both players?

 

No, NcSoft can't just ban. They must be so sure and that is the 2nd rub of the gm's life. It would be nice if they grep'd the sql logs every morning, ran a report to see the amount of adena that changed hands and looked further, but now you have the real problem of places selling in game items too for real life money. How does one track and kill those? Can't be done unless someone says something stupid in chat.

 

We don't have the gold spammers in Lineage 2 that much any more, but the global block wouldn't help much. They need to be able to kill those accounts as fast as they spam their announcements. That would require Ncsoft to double or triple the GM staff and up their training and find gm's that love the game and not just borg's looking for a paycheck.

 

Well one sign that you bought money is if you received the sum from a low level character.  Gold sellers will typically use a "trash account" to deliver the money.  So if that account gets banned they don't care.  Spammer Account A farms the gold and mails the money to Spammer Account B, who then in turn gives to Low Life Player C.  So the can see if someone's 50 hero/villain gave a lowbie an inf gift or did some lvl 1 named dkdjfjfjk give it instead.

If  you see someone spamming in chat, global, general, trade, whatever you kick them immediately and suspend the account.  Then they can have a supervisor decided whether or not to ban the account.  Legit players aren't going to make a macro and spam the chat with "buygold.com cheap! gold 4 u" endlessly.

The global block would help out the players a lot.  We all know that ignoring gjkkdkdk does nothing as after spamming for 5 mins they simply delete that char, make another gibberish one and log back on.  By globally ignoring them I'd never see any of their spams for as long as they use that account.   NCSoft could check how many accounts get globally ignored to help see which ones are spammer accounts.  If one got a lot of hits for global ignores, they can then check the logs and see why.  If they find "buy inf cheap.com" ads, then POOF the account goes bye bye.

I run in DX9 mainly for better framerate.  I can run in DX10 as well, it's just in Old Tarantia and Raids my framerate takes a noticeable hit as there are more graphics to process.  Game still looks good in DX9 (to me).

Course my 8800GT is also a limiting factor I'll admit.

First off, subscription fees are non-refundable.  They always have been.  They (probably) always will be.  Says clearly in the TOS you clicked "I Agree" to login that the fees are not refundable.  So trying to get your fee back was pointless.

Second, when I took advantage of the new subscription plan it didn't bill me til my current cycle ended.    I did the the helm right away, though the extra vet tokens didn't show up til my cycle began again.

On the subject of STO, if Cryptic does make the bridge the "social hub" it's going to really upset the trekkies.  It would be another sign that Cryptic is unfamiliar with the Trek Lore, as people don't "hang out" on the bridge.    Still STO is in a wait-and-see mode for me, as I will not be buying it at release.  I will wait a while to see how reviews and word of mouth go.

I have no problem paying the subscription fee if I'm getting my money's worth.

Games like CoH and AoC have added significant content as free patches.  That is my $15/month at work, so I'm happy.   Games like WoW though, take the money and actually deliver less and less.  For perspective, "vanilla" WoW averaged a new patch every 2.5 months.  During BC, that was up to 5 months and now during Wrath its  up to 6 months.  So in WoW I'm getting less "value" for my $15 that I did before.

NCSoft has a great feature in City of Heroes, global ignore.  Instead of just ignoring 1 character with a gibberish name, you ignore ALL characters that account makes.  Now developers could use this to see if any account gets mass global ignores, that would be 1 sign that it's a gold spammer.

Another simple solution is have a GM 24/7 that watches the main trade/general/global channel.   They are (in theory) online anyways monitoring petitions, so would not be hard to have a window up showing whatever channel the spammers frequent.  The moment he sees one, boot that person offline and suspend the account.

Also, delete the account  on anyone caught buying items thru the RMT market.  Sure buy that gold, get your epic mount then POOF your 80 toon is gone forever as well as any alts you may have.  No excuses, no exceptions, delete the player's account.  They can be free to start a new one if they wish.

I think checking for antivirus software before allowing login would fine too,  as long as it is clearly stated the client is doing that check. 

Putting any technical issues aside, which there are a lot of, I am a tad disappointed in DAO.  This is a Bioware game, so it should be held to a higher standard.  Especially considering how good Mass Effect and KOTOR were.

First off, the player has no facial expressions.  Seriously.  My elf rogue looks like he's wired on 20 energy drinks.  He doesn't even blink, which makes him look rather creepy at times, robotic at others.  Shephard in ME would blink, smile, wipe sweat off his brow, snarl when angry, etc.  Even the characters in KOTOR release 6 years ago had facial expressions.

Second, becoming a Gray Warden... does nothing.  In ME, when I became a spectre I got a new skill bar and access to the best weapons.  In KOTOR when I became a Jedi I got new feats and abilities.  In DAO my lvl 5 rogue became a Warden and ... was still a lvl 5 rogue.  Allstair mentioned that "Gray Wardens can sense darkspawn", but if that's the case why do I keep getting jumped by darkspawn rogues all the time?  Gray Wardens have no special skills or abilities.

Specializing doesn't help you much either.  My rogue becomes a dualist and I get ... 1 row of 4 skills to (eventually) get.  Oh and +1 attack too!  After looking forward to specializing it was quite a let down to see that you can actually skip it entirely and it won't gimp your gameplay at all.  

The Sex Scene that Bioware been pushing is lame.  No, actually it's a rather half-a** attempt at a sex scene.  It's more a "cuddle" scene if anything.  Now I am not saying I was looking forward to seeing Morrigan's digital booty, but if you aren't going to do it right then don't do it at all.  Maybe all the whining Fox News did about the sex scene in ME cowed Bioware into toning it down?  Odd thing is, it's a Mature rated game that lists "contains partial nudity" and yet I haven't found ANY yet.  This is double odd considering how hard Bioware was pushing the fact we can get Morrigan in the sack, she's in virtually every trailer bumpin' uglies with the player character.

Finally we can see EA's influence on this game right off the bat.  Besides using the SecuROM malware, they are hitting us up for more money the moment we start the game.  Under your journal there is a PREMIUM CONTENT tab in big all caps, which distracts from your regular quests.  Even in the party camp there is an npc that is reminding you that you have PREMIUM CONTENT that you haven't downloaded yet.  Jeebus EA, I just dropped down $50 and now you want MORE money?!
 

Originally posted by Iplaytoomuch

Originally posted by DrowNoble

Originally posted by Iplaytoomuch

Originally posted by DrowNoble

Originally posted by Iplaytoomuch

Originally posted by DrowNoble

Originally posted by Frostbite05

most of the features wow promised were there at launch. Over 50% of the age of conan content was either not part of the launch or never existed in the first place.

 

Actually that isn't true Frostbite.

Blizzard initially said that the easy leveling curve was so players could get to 60 quickly to begin working on pvp and their hero class.  Well the pvp was pointless until several months later when the (now old) honor system was put it with battlegrounds.  Until then it was just grief here, gank there, with no gain or consequece. 

Hero Classes were promised at release.  They had originally said that you would get to 60, then become a <whatever>.  For whatever reason, they never followed up on that and refused to even talk about hero classes until Wrath.  At that time it was a hero class (read: singular) that required no effort to get.

Honestly thought, can't really compare AoC and WoW fairly.  AoC it geared towards higher end PC's and mature gamers.  WoW is going for mass market appeal with lower-res "cartoony" graphics and younger players.

 

Lol since when have boobies attracted mature gamers?

It's a myth that AoC has older players. Every guild I have ever been to has had tons of kiddies who lied that they were adults and who always refuse to come to vent because then they would be exposed. All you need is one look at public chat and you'll see how "mature" AoC community is.

 

First off, where did you get in my post that "mature gamers" equates to "boobies"?   I would think the immature gamers would be going for the digital boobies as it were.

As for looking at public chat, there is technically no "public" chat, I will assume you mean Global?  Many people actually disable that as there is a LFG channel if they need to find peopel for a pug.  As for the "quality" of chat in Global it is no where NEAR as bad as the infamous Barrens Chat that WoW has.  If you ask a legitimate question in Global you will rarely get a snarky reply (unlike in WoW). 

When speaking of a mature game, it's more than the "boobies" as you put it.  There is adult language and themes as well in many of the quests.  Not to mention, AoC has fatalities....

 

Your skills of assumption are pretty amazing.

It's a known fact that both boobies and fatalities attract immature players, not mature. Adults and mature gamers don't generally get all excited if they see pixel boobies or someone decapitated. Adults like "deeper" games, not just cheap eye candy and fluff.

I don't know what kind of chat they have in WoW but I can tell you that AoC had the worst public chat I had ever seen in an MMO. That is of course only my own opinion, yours may be different.

Right now I am playing Fallen Earth and I could instantly tell that its community is much more mature than AoC's. People are actually nice and very helpful. In AoC I saw mostly frustrated kids who liked ganking.

 

Ah you never played WoW, which explains some.  You don't have the comparison to understand my reference.  Basically The Barrens was a 10-20ish zone, rather bland (oversized plains) so when people were off questing there, the general chat channel usually filled up with odd topics.  Chuck Norris references, bad jokes, etc.  They even make t-shirts now saying "I survived Barrens Chat" over at Jinx.  I'ts gotten to the point that saying "barrens chat" is referring to something stupid and irrelevant.   I've seen in CoH and AoC, someone making a comment about "gosh let's not turn this into barrens chat".

Now as for me assuming, you knowing for a fact that fatalities and boobies attract immature gamers... is a rather big assumption on your part.  The boobies part, that I do agree with if it was just for the sake of "the boobies".  As long as it's following the theme of the storyline, boobies don't bother me.  An example is the Black Pyramid quest lines.  The fatalities are different, since they are actually a short term buff, there is a practical reason to try and get one to go off.  Mature themes are quite common in this game, which may or may not include fatalities and boobies.

Your last statement about "frustrated kids who liked ganking" tells me that you played the game early on and on a pvp server.  On pve servers, there is no ganking.... period.  Simply can't happen.  Not long after release Funcom added a buff to prevent ganking upon rez called "shield of the risen".  It even lowers the cast time of your Path to 1 sec should the ganker be standing there and you want to leave.  Currently they have a criminal system so that if someone continues to grief lowbies, it will penalize them by making them difficult to go into cities (guards attack), having to pay 5 silver to zone elsewhere and having only 1 rez pad per zone to spawn at.

 

Actually I have played very recently and on a PvP server. I know for a fact that there's a lot of mindless ganking going on and if you claim something else then maybe you haven't been playing since launch?

Ok last time I will reply to your comments as it it obvious you aren't reading and/or understanding what I am saying. 
 

I DID say that you must of played on a pvp server, on PVE servers there is NO ganking.   Ever.  Now if you play on a PVP server isn't that the idea that ... there is pvp?  Ganking isn't somehow unique to AoC it happens in every MMO that has pvp servers:  DAoC, WoW, EQ1, etc.   In case you haven't realized by now, I play on a pve server because I want to enjoy the quests and storyline.  I went through my pvp phase back when I played DAoC with my nightshade.

Yes I have been playing since launch by the way.

The point I was trying to make is Funcom added features to reduce the amount of ganking.  There will always be someone who will gank regardless of what the game penalizes them with, so that can't be helped.  Now, you cannot be ganked right after you rez due to the Shield of the Risen buff as one example.