You know this is sad, that AC has revamped the quests so that you end up level 80 within hours of logging on.  I mean half the fun of your character was finding a few groups of Lugians that spawned in a static location with roughly the same types of lugians each time.  Then setting up a kill route to kill each group before buffs ran out in order to level from 15-20.  Hours to get to 80 I remember it taking days to get to level 20, and that was playing for 6-8 hours a day, but there was alot to do then, more community to chat with get advice from..etc.  Still I remember when I first found out that the max level was 126, and that the experiance to get from level 125 to 126 was equivilant to all the experiance it took you to get from 1 to 125.  We thought it was impossible to get to 126 back then, and then a guy did it on one server.  He had created one of the biggest experiance chain guilds on all the servers with him being the top guy, and it still took 2 years for someone to max out the levels.

If you play and get to 80 within 3 hours there is something wrong, they they WOWified it, I feel so betrayed.

Hell I would go back to Ashron's Call in a heartbeat if the population was half of what it was when I quit.  I would love to see the servers populated with about 500-1000 people at all times, it would bring the world alive again.

Sigh the good old days...now if they redid AC with Graphics on par with LOTRO, or AOC or something of that level and went back to vanilla AC I think the game would be amazing, and I would pay 15$/month NO PROBLEM for it.

Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

Originally posted by solocrono

 

 

"A video game with nonlinear gameplay (sandbox style) presents players with challenges that can be completed in a number of different sequences. Whereas a more linear game will confront a player with a fixed sequence of challenges, a less linear game will allow greater player freedom. For example, a nonlinear game may permit multiple sequences to finish the game, a choice between paths to victory, or optional side-quests and subplots"

 

Hmm.. this is interesting... By this definition.... Every MMO is in some way a sandbox.... am I wrong in assuming this from this definition?  Especially the upcoming hater-magnet  SWTOR seems to fit this mold in some way as well.  If you think outside the box, then yes, EVERY mmo in one way or another is a sandbox.

 For instance in WoW (and definetly in SWtOR) you start in the newbie area. Then after x amount of quests a quest leads you to the level 10 area. Then you do quests in the level 10 area until you get led to the level 20 area etc etc.

 

In AC you start off in a town. There are no exclamation points over people's heads. No guy saying hey start with me and then go to that guy. You wander the world and do as you wish. You can go hunt for some levels, or you can go talk to townsfolk seeing if any of them needs help with something. You don't get held by the hand and directed on where to go and what to do and when to do it.

 

In WoW (and SWtOR) you pick a class at the start. That is your class and now you follow the quest line for that class.

 

In AC you pick your starting attributes and skills. You get dropped off in the world the same as someone who picked different skills. As you advance you pick which skills you want to learn. You form your character and your identity as you advance, you aren't locked into a class path.

 

That is the difference between what people refer to as theme park games and sandboxes.

I kinda dissagree with that statement above about what sandbox style is, I personally don't believe the game gives the challenges, the players find the challenges, like in AC.  You could in all fairness go from level 1 to 250(I think) with out ever completing a quest.  Of course you would miss out on alot but you could do it, also you mold your character into something different then everyone else.  How about in vanilla AC a Swordmaster with melee defense and only item magic...or the guy who sunk all his exp into his jump skill just to jump higher then everyone else.  AC was one of the last GREAT Sandbox games.  The levels in AC didn't suggest a path only a marker showing how much you put into the game.  It really was only a placeholder for how much exp you had earned to put into skills and stats.

Games like WOW everything is pathed out for you, your choices for talents is a JOKE, there are some minor choices but the you must stay within the box at all times.

Then you have EVE one of the closest things to a sandbox other then AC, problem with EVE is as a world/universe there is no real sandboxish elements.  Everything is known, there is not mystery as to what is over the next hill or around that star, Worm holes were an interesting addition to EVE but there implementation I feel was very poor. 

As for the true ultimate sandbox well that is Second Life, you can do whatever your heart desires.  There is nothing else if you want to do it then do it, but it has no goals except the ones you make, so is it really a game or an augment of reality?

For success I look at the older games that have have being around for 10 years or more and how many subs they had to stay going.  Asheron's Call is one that comes to mind because I loved that game and still do, at its peak when it was still on the msn gaming zone I believe each server had a cap of 3000 players and there were like 5 servers, that is around 15000 people subbed at least.  AC has now being around for over 10 years they don't have the numbers but they are still there and still updating every month.  Is this a success?  To me it is.

I didn't realize this was a question....

M - Massive

M - Multiplayer

O - Online

R - Role

P - Playing

G - Game

World of Tanks is more of a

M - Massive

M - Multiplayer

O - Online

F - First

P - Person

S - Shooter

The game is Massive, there quite a few maps

The game is Multiplaer, Many people can log on at the same time

The game is Online, that is where you play it

You play as a TANK, remind you of EVE a bit there so that makes it First Person

Also you Shoot other tanks, THAT IS IT!!! SO it is a shooter.

That should answer the question if it is an MMO right there, it is an MMO just not an MMORPG.

Ok had to reply to this thread, WOW is not the end all beat all in MMO's.  Heck it is only the most successful simply because its game play and design are for the average joe.  You don't have to be a genious to figure out how to play WOW, and to succeed at it doesn't take alot of work even.  It appeals to the broadest crowd possible.

The OP kept saying, 6 years blah, your right Blizzard deserves respect for making a MMO that appeals to so many and having it last this long.  Even though the time it will last is going to be for MANY MANY years I still prefer looking back to the older and IMO better MMO's of the day.  The ones that catered to, and I mean no dissrespect, but real gamers.  The people that would spend hours playing one game to get 1 item, then have it stolen by some guy who just logs on and takes it before you. 

Ultima Online 1997 - I never played it, I wasn't into MMO's at the time but I am told this game was amazing and had very good commercal success, what is that 13 years it has being out and I understand it is still going?

Everquest 1999 - Again I never played it I was still not into MMO's at the time, but after 11 years people still refer to it as EverCrack because it was so addictive, oh and the game is still going.

Asheron's Call 1999 - The first MMO that I ever played, and it is still going as well, almost a full 11 years later and they are still releasing MONTHLY free content patches and new features, probably one of the most patched MMO's to date.  Also this game is still going, and still a great game.

I know I probably left out quite a few other MMO's but those to me were the most popular for the day, that is why I used them.  So I put to you is WOW better then any of these?  Some people are going to say, hell yea just based on the graphics, but in reality everyone is going to answer different for different reasons. 

Success to me is not measured by how many subs they have or how much money they make every month, instead it is messured by there longevity.  In that case WOW has years to go before I crowns your giving it.

You know I agree with you that you need some quests that can't be completed or have a high degree of fear associated with them, that if you fail you could lose alot.  I used to play a great game back in the day, Asheron's Call.  The death system in this game was great if you died you dropped random items on your body and had to go back to retrieve them, and you had a vitae penalty where you had to get experiance to remove the penalty.  Example 5% off all skills and attributes for your first death, now depending on your level each 1% to return you had to make x amount of experiance, it was a minor but affective deterant to constantly dieing or taking big risks.  The random item drops was the next deterant, just imagine working for hours and finally finding that one Hauberk that is amazing and building to you what seems like an Uber set of armor.  Then you take a chance and die in a very difficult area, well there is a chance that part of that armor suit is going to get left behind on your body, so you have to either go get it with a group OR forget about it.

This brings me to a quest I remember that had one of the harshest penalties in the game if you failed, the Aerlinthe Island from Ashron's Call.  This is a very OLD quest but it outlined the harshness of the quest, here is the full walk through if you want to read it all...

http://acvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Quests.Detail&id=15

Let me break it down for you, your rewards were...

Sacrificial Dagger, Red Fire Infusion, Ring of the Watchman, Aerfalle's Pallium, Ashbane, Aerlinthe Recall Scroll, Staff of Aerfalle

Many of these things you wouldn't keep for long but the Pallium and the recall scroll were Uber for the day and they made the quest worth while.

Here is one harsh part, the respawn time for this quest is 1 week, meaning that it can be only attempted 1 time per week.

Now I am not going to go through everything that happened in this quest but lets just say you had to be organized to complete it, and have a group that was half decent at the time.  The kicker was once you entered the final dungeon which the entrance is SPAWNED for and does not exist seperately and you enter that dungeon, there is no way back in there for 1 week.  So if your group Fails, anything you drop is most likely gone for good because body retreival was nonexistant at the time.

This made the game actually raise your heart rate, make you think every decision.  There were more quests like this in AC, but this one was to me at the time one of the most Epic quests you could participate in.  I remember running the quest with 20-30 people and wiping in the dungeon, losing practically everything important.  It was harsh but it was so fun to try again, not knowing if I would be able to complete it this time.

SO I agree we need more games that are not afraid to let players lose.

You know I have tried EVE on and off since release, never staying for more then 3 or 4 months at a time.  The last time I came back was before the wormhole patch, and I will be honest with you I thought I was going to be around for a long time when I did that.  I was on month 5 and having a good time to tell you the truth.

I will be honest I didn't know what I wanted to do in EVE, I decided I wanted to mine for people so I was training up on that and my combat a bit so that I could get to do level 4 missions.  I was bored with it at this time, then a buddy messaged me and told me to warp to him with my mining ship and help him mine a "hidden" belt.  I was intrigued, so I did and started mining with him, and made some good coin, only him and I for hours there.  So I asked him how he found this belt and he explained with "Scanning", so over the next few days I researched it and then asked him to train me in scanning.  So I spent 2 or 3 night learning the art of scanning from my bud.  To be honest I enjoyed the frustration of it, and the time it took to find good things.  I was getting pretty good at it, I was selling locations to people for a million isk here or there it was all going good.  I even scanned out a few hidden plexs...etc.  I had a lucrative little buisness going on, I trained up on flying a ship designed for scanning, then purchased the "sisters launcher" which helped me out alot.  I really was having a good time, then the patch came out that made scanning something any baby could do.  Now hidden belts were no longer a commodity they were there for everyone because anyone could find them in 10 min of work.  Not to mention worm holes, I played around flying into them but didn't like it much.  Within a week I quit and I was sad because I really liked my place in the universe untill that patch happened, but after that I was no longer usefull and didn't have reason to want to search for a new purpose in the game.

Other then that I would love to play EVE again but I need a new job in the game, and none appeal to me anymore.

For me it was Asheron's Call 2, the original game was so good but they couldn't follow the same model instead they tried to reinvent the wheel.

Only one I would love to see is RIFTS from Paladium.  By far one of the best RPG's of all time and can have all different classes from almost any type of RPG, and lets face it the amount of books out describing the world is amazing and could create a Great MMO.

Why is everyone so mental over end game in MMO's?  I am starting to think that everyone has forgotten that an MMORPG is supposed to be an evolving world with no real end to it.  Here is an idea play a class that is enjoyable to you, it doesn't matter what anyone else wants you to do.

Without a doubt Asherons Call, then runner up PRE-Cu SWG

I think the current state of mining can be attributed to the changes to scanning.  Back before the changes to scanning and the addition of worm holes I was training up to become a miner/scanner.  I was getting pretty good at it, it would take a very long time to narrow things down and when you did it was great big rewards.  Then they mickey moused the system so anyone could find wormholes, hidden belts...etc.  I loved finding that hidden belt and then sitting there mining the crap out of it while no one else found it, making a ton of money.  That was a good thing and the fact that you needed a bit of skill to find these things is what made it fun and worth while.  Now it is so easy it is more of a side skill that people take, and then they can locate anything in a matter of moments instead of what used to take upwards of 1 hour to narrow down.

I was never attacked by a player during mining ops to hidden belts before but now it would be so easy for these people to scan me out because again there is no skill involved so any A$$hat can do it.  This I think has trickled down into the hulkagedon you see now.

What I got out of that interview is this...

"Our direction for the game is moving forward but we dont' know where we want it to be."

"We haven't considered alot of things and this is a massive undertaking that we are still not prepared for."

"We are not sure what we are doing with this game at all."

"But we are the best at what we do."

LOL seriously this game looks like it is many many years away, and I don't think they even know what the final game will be like.  Can't wait for EA to tell them to start selling ahead of schedule...LOL.

I was struggling for a bit to come up with a title for this thread, sorry in advance.  I don't have anything against F2P games other then the nickle and diming people to death but that is for another discussion.

Does anyone else here think the current trend to go F2P for turbine shows the quality of there games, and sustainablity of them?  I mean here we have DDO and LOTRO both big titles, both massive IP's, both well didn't do as well as they had hoped.  Sure they stayed within the boundries of what they were given and created nice games but nothing people wanted to dish out 10-15$/month for, at least not for a considerable amount of time.

Turbine also has Asheron's Call, kinda the loner of the group.  A game that came out over 10 years ago, is still bringing in 10$/month per person logged onto it, and has relied primarily on great story arcs, good game play, Excelent PvP, Original characters, and lets face it by todays standards HORRIBLE graphics.  So why do many people pay 10$ a month to keep AC going but people can't dish out 15$/month to keep LOTRO and DDO up and running without the cash shop?

In my opinion it is the quality of the games them selves.  You see AC was a well thought out open world sandbox style game that was far ahead of its time.  It didn't catch on dramatically because EQ had come out before it and everyone went that direction, but AC stayed up and running, monthly updates/patches and a very good community for over 10 years.  Always there was something to do in AC, and although the leveling could get tedious at times, it was always fun to get that random loot from anything you killed.

Now you have these games DDO and LOTRO, both are not bad games.  I personally like LOTRO but couldn't bring myself to subscribe to it for more then 3-4 months at a time because of shear boardom.  There really was never a community on it not even when the game started out. 

What does everyone else think?  Are MMO's of todays ranks like LOTRO, DDO, WOW...etc lacking something that the classics had like AC, EQ...etc?  Also does it speak volumes that a 10 year old game still can make it by asking 10$/month?

Sorry for me, I won't play a F2P MMO unless all the cash shop does is unlock the higher levels forever, and items that may look different but do not affect any part of game play, and pets that don't change any part of game play, and finally they don't offer things like 2x xp for 2 hours...etc. 

A game that offers items in its cash shop that rival or equal items in the game destroys the game in my opinion.

A game that offers items that give bonuses that are not available in game like 2x xp destroy the game as well.

MMO's used to be about the community and the journey through the world, level caps didn't mean much, end game was not where the game began, the game was FUN from day one.  Sure it may have being repedative occasionally but honestly it was a much better system then today, again IMO.  If someone could purchase a gem that gave them 2x xp for 4 hours that is like buying an Iwin button for levels.  If Someone could purchase a hauberk that has better stats then 90% of what is in the game that is also an Iwin button.  These are unacceptable to myself and the reason I would not play F2P games.

Originally posted by KyngBills

Originally posted by safety

Originally posted by Sunioj

Star Wars fan base is much larger then Star Trek.  Even if Old Republic has graphical issues or game play issues, it's still going to be a very big hit.  The timing is right for a new Star Wars MMO.  I do hope they tweak and improve some of these aspects, but we will have to see.

You can't take that for granted. They may sell a lot of boxes immediately after launch but if the don't offer a solid MMO game experience, then this massive investment will fail. SWG showed that SW IP games can fail.

 True...But honestly, do you think BioWare and Lucas don't know that already? This Game is going to have 6 years of Developement by Launch...It will be bigger, more massive, and deeper than any MMO we've ever seen at Launch...You can bank on it...Sure the proof will be in the quality of the Game itself...But just throwing SWG out there as an example of how a SW Game can fail is not really an argument against this Game...Cause SWG made some of the biggest mistakes in the History of MMO developement...It's just not relative to SWTOR whatsoever...

There is already plenty of information out there about SWTOR to support the theory that Bioware/Lucas have learned from the failure that was SWG...They've also learned from the failures of other popular IP's, and the successes of some to...They're not rushing this thing out for a reason...I know some Folks are born skeptics, and as far as MMORPG's go I think it's pretty much well founded...But I think this Group at BioWare and Lucas is going to prove to be the exception...And I'm not exactly the eternal optimist either...

It's not going to be for everybody no question, but it's going to appeal to so many Folks over such a wide spectrum I don't think we even have a clue......It's going to appeal to tons of people who have never even heard of MMORPG.com...In My House alone there is one person who plays MMO's, but 3 people who are going to play SWTOR...My best friends girlfriend does not even play video Games and she's going to play SWTOR...The Community will be massive at launch and that is going to be all the headstart they need...If they supply a deep, stable, really fun Game it's going to go through the roof...

I love how people still think Bioware really has much of a say in this game anymore, Lucas maybe but not Bioware.  There team is owned by EA, and I still think that is going to bite them in there collective butts just like it did with WAR and Mythic.  Everyone figured Mythic had "Creative Control" and well when push came to shove EA told them when to release if they were ready or not, because they needed the cash infusion to make the profits go up.  Then they gutted the company and now look at the state WAR is in now.

The number one biggest problem with SWTOR is not going to be Bioware or Lucas but instead EA.  I hope I am wrong but history has shown this is how EA works.

Not sure if I would want Battletech, I am kinda partial to Robotech.  I think the backround and IP would be great in an MMO personally.

Personally I don't have a problem with STO, although it is just a themepark in space it is still refreshing.  I am tired of mystical crap, barbarians, elves, half elves, dwarves, gnomes...etc.  I wanted sci-fi, anything would do, I played Anarchy Online for a long time, and even City of Heros for a long time and of course Star Wars Galaxies from release day, I even tried out Eve for about 3-6 months at a time over the last few years.  The problem I had with each was different but the experiances were very refreshing.  I think AO could still be amazing if they get there graphics update in and tweek the game, I think alot of people will go back because it is a Sci-Fi game.  COH was great, I loved it not sci-fi really but comic books come to life for its time was original and well done and the same goes for COV.  SWG was by far one of the best Sci-Fi games, that i probably wouldn't have stopped playing if Sony hadn't messed with it but that is another thread.  Eve is this hidden monster that is a Sci-Fi MMO that pretty much plays itself, I could start a massive debate on the subject but I don't like the one thing that sets this game apart from every other game, offline skill training, getting something for nothing it just isn't right.  Finally STO, I actually do like the game and I see potential in it, but the key is can Cryptic morph the game into that amazing Sci-Fi game?  I really hope so, but untill I really get frustrated I will continue to support them and hope they advance the game, for all of those lifers that left and want there money back, tough luck.  You don't get a refund on a car you drove for 2 months, you can't get a refund on a chocolate bar that you ate and you didn't enjoy.  If you realized you wanted that refund within 30 days then fine but after that your in it for the long haul so suck it up princesses, maybe next time you won't jump the gun just to get into beta.

Originally posted by Autarch

Bioware is a company full of talentless hacks. Nowadays, at the very least.

Giving them credit where it's due: Their voice acting is of top quality, the combat is ( usually ) quite well designed and the graphical style of their games allows them to run on pretty much any system.

But, their plot lines are cliché and pretty much exactly the same ( the only exception was Neverwinter Nights, and that was milked to hell ), the out-of-company sequels to their games are far better than their in company ones ( and the only reason they're considered not comparable is because those companies get rushed due to not being Bioware ) and they steal concepts from other books and games, such as Dragon Age - the Darkspawn of which are a blatant rip of R. Scott Bakker's Prince of Nothing series.

All Bioware is capable of these days is repeating their same old crap sequel after sequel after new franchise. Character suffers tragedy, goes into universe / world, joins extra-special order, recruits companions, does series of pretty much linear zones interspered with "side quests", fights disappointing boss, saves day.

And, if you're expecting anything seriously different from SW:TOR, you're sadly mistaken.

Now while I agree with some of your points I have to say one thing.  Bioware WAS a great company and made quality games, no different then any other company out there that made good games.  Originality in games and stories now adays is rare at best, so in reality everyone is a rip off of something somewhere, if not then someone will put together some crap about how it is a rip off ( eg : http://www.buzzfeed.com/reddit/james-camerons-pocohontas-err-avatar ). 

Now don't get me wrong everyone has there right to think whatever they want about games or movies, myself included.  My point with Bioware and there new game comming up TOR, is that now that they are OWNED by EA, EA is the one who calls the shots.  Don't give me any crap about them having "Creative control", they have that untill the fat guys at EA say, "Crap we need money, force Bioware to release that game they are working on ahead of schedule so we can show a profit this quarter."  The same thing that happened with WAR.

They have great talent at Bioware, I just hope that they can define themselves and keep there core company and not be eaten up like many of the other companies EA has purchased.