All Posts by JYCowboy

I once posted that it might be good to go through a linear progress to master that unlocks all Professions to choose from.  In essance, turning a Profession system into a Skill System once you finish your chosen path.  If a player, does not like Skill based play, they can quit having finished the game by Mastering a single profession.

I to hate the term "End Game" but there it is.  I feel that multipul situations should open up for a player at Master Level.  Master should be a first requirement on unlocking content/mission/quests that are group based or single player driven.  This same content could help tailor and customize the Look and Play of this character based on the genera or setting and the choices of the player.  What does Master <character class> mean if the world does not open up other posiblities?

Both of these ideas, however, cause developers nightmares in balance and content building.  They are not easy repeatable or grind conent that players can continue endlessly.

Further, its all backwards.  Raiding and PVP should be what a character does (mundane jobs) to get to master that opens up new possiblities such as quests and missions.  Thats kinda how it is in the real world.  Work hard  for promotions to achieve better tools, higher status to work with better situations.

Originally posted by _Seeker

*sigh* What a pointless sh*t stirring article.

Gaming is not mainstream. It does exist, but is only acceptable in children. As others have said. I would rather say that the myth of the "nerd" is headed for extinction. That all consuming generalisation about a group of people will be broken. Just like the one that all black people are inferior was shattered way back when.

Its interesting that you lock gaming absolute in one sentance but reconize the "nerds" change in another.

Anima is Cartoons.  Cartoons are only for children (American stereotype) thus they will never be taken seriously.  I don't agree with these statements just as I don't agree that "Gaming is not mainstream."  We all know the sales and sub numbers.  Large amounts of money are made with both industries thus giving them importance.  Just like technology, the "Nerd" has changed and evolved.

The true defining feature of a Nerd is the obsession to his interest which is usually complex and makes the "common Joe" say "Thats too high brow for me."  Of course, Joe might also say "Whoa, that sure looks cool."  The lack of social skills and funny dress are non-required window dressing.  Heh, exchange Pocket Protectors with Palm Pilots and see who now looks like a Nerd.

Originally posted by Cabe2323

Originally posted by mugs
You missed my point, my point is:
There are Thousands of PVE focus game, or casual pvp game! LOTS and there are still babies crying for more but not spending the time to actualy play the games that are out there.
So every forum i go i see lots of people looking for real pvp games and there are none!
So everyone that is currently creating, developing a new PVE game is just shaping the things so ppl can give them money to get what they want and move on.
I say stop making lots of games, and make a good one.

There are no "real" PVP games because that is a niche market.  There are not enough customers to make a profitiable game in this environment.  The days are gone of old school UO or AC Darktide.  The Masses have spoken and the gaming companies (the big ones with the big budgets) are listening.  And those masses have said we don't want a lot of PVP, we want to be able to do it when we want, and we don't want to lose our Uber sword of pwning that we got from Super Mob #256. 

So until a large company takes a chance and makes a game where Skill and not gear determines your ability to PVP, expect these type of PVP lite games. 

Your mostly right.  This is the prevailing view of the Hard Core player on why PVP is not flourishing and/or being restricted to battle zones.  In truth, large gaming companies had to end TEFs because of the East Asian Regulations on PVP.  In essance, the reg states PVP must be chosen and not forced.  The choice has to be clear so NO TEF.  Why do companies bow to this reg?  Look at the numbers.  WOW has 8 mil subs, with 2-3 mil in the U.S..  The other 5-6 mil are in Asia.  The gaming companies cant afford to alienate those markest as they pay the most.  Why did these regs happen?  Some Hard Core players could not handle thier toon being killed and took Real World action against their in game attacker.  Real World Deaths accured.  The East Asians are reeeally into MMO's.

If you track back to when these regs took effect, you will find many games changed thier TEF systems to comply at that time.

Hmm,

Maybe they are wanting to get thier feet wet with a simple MMO that is fantasy but has a fairly indepth setting.  My first thought was a Baulder's Gate MMO.  Probably not as that would be confusing with DDO currently running, but still it is a different world.  KOTOR Online is still a possiblity again, not fantasy, not sci-fi, its Science Fantasy as some media journelist have labed Star Wars.

My hope is a Old West MMO that draws from legends and not facts.  That would be something new to MMO's.  I hope its not a Spy or Fantasy MMO.  Unless its done well, I think SOE is going to be disippointed in their Spy offering.  Super Hero might be good. Having an alternative to CoH/CoV and the others coming (DC and Marvel) would help that genera flourish.

Just like you, just speculating.  Have a Great Day , Ya'll.

Originally posted by Phoenixs
The end effect should always be a great and fun game. If innovation is a part of achieving that it should be done, if it isn't it shouldn't be done. You should not innovate just for the sake of innovating. That serves no purpose.

LOL,

Many SWG players would agree with you.  No matter how you spell it, Dev are having to equate FUN = MONEY.  For them they are not exclusive issues.

Innovation has to do only one thing.  Make more money.  It can be a crap grind that all will do and hate.  As long as it makes money they wont mess with it.  Let some other poor suc...  Gaming Company develope a idea that works.  If its good (and easy to implement) then others might copy its formula.  Heck, all the devs of the popular MMO's live in Austin.  They probably swap ideas and solutions all the time.  FRS --->Honor Rank--->GCW Rank    anyone?

In truth, making money is great but does it make a better company with better games?  You need people with ideas, talent and vision to change the status quo.  Are there still people out there that can do that?  Lets hope so.

SWG:

Yes, there is progress and some old and new players are trying it out.  But the direct question was Is the relationship with SOE and Lucas Arts still positive?  Can they both come to a understanding and pursue it or is there a conflict with the direction of SWG?

Good question with a vague answer.

Originally posted by Wumi

Originally posted by JYCowboy

SWG was mentioned so I need to add that Pre-NGE Galaxies was kinda dependent on Grinding.  It had multiple xp pools to feed the varied skill based professions.  Scouting xp was different from Pistol xp, though earned simularly.  Why was grinding acceptable (to a degree) in SWG?  Large groups made for interesting conversations.  The odds were high for it with groups up to 20 players.  Most of the time, the Loot/Resources gathered had a value and there was always a chance to score something useful (i.e. Legedary Weapons).  The intensity to grind was high also when xp was traded for Jedi xp during the Village Unlock period for Jedi.  I found grinding most fun when there was a quest goal attached such as the Padwan or Knight Trials.  The only grind in SWG that about killed me was the Crafting Grind.  Grinding for (Force Sensitive) Master Crafter just about did me in.  Why was this tolarble?  These were forms of Achievement that were very rewarding for gameplay.  This would still be true if Jedi was not a starting profession and a alpha class in the NGE.

...

 

You forgot to mention the jedi grind itself.. the mother of all grinds. (A finished jedi template was about 11millon xp) For me in PreCU days it was worth it even tho it was hard as hell, it was the path leading to the alpha class and most respected by my opinion. U had to stay "hidden" from NPC and Players or else ud get on the bounty hunter terminal and if killed ud loose up to a weeks worth of grinding xp. At preCU launch i lost 2 million jedi xp cuz of bug when gaining only about 500-1000xp i per kill it kinda hurt a bit.

Alas playing as Bounty Hunter myself most of the time I had it coming

Wumi - PreCU Bloodfin

No disrespet to the Elder Jedi.  Yes, that was a very mounumental grind.

An interesting condition created by the early Jedi/BH TEF system, I had friends in a city that set traps for BH hunting thier Jedi.  They were, of course, on ventrilo and were based on Dantooine to grind.  If one of thier Jedi was under attack he would run to their Cantina which was a safe zone.  When the BH arrived in town, the whole guild would pour out and jump him.  Standard attack was ban, kill the vehical, then kill him.  The town was in a very isolated section of the planet forcing the BH to walk 1000s meters to the starport.  As I understand, this tatic was the first condition that ended up nerfing the TEF to just the Jedi and BH involved.

Most feel that forums carebears killed the TEF.  Not really true.  TEF was killed with those Asian regulations against PVP.  Big MMO companies could not afford to alienate themselves from the East Asian markets if they didn't change thier games.  TEF may have been real fun but it was just not cost friendly for a big company.  WOW's population is about 3 million Western subs and 4-5 million in the East (Asia).  Think how that would have impact Blizzard if WOW had a TEF that they removed.  Ah, TEF = Temporay Enemy Flag for PVP combat.

SWG was mentioned so I need to add that Pre-NGE Galaxies was kinda dependent on Grinding.  It had multiple xp pools to feed the varied skill based professions.  Scouting xp was different from Pistol xp, though earned simularly.  Why was grinding acceptable (to a degree) in SWG?  Large groups made for interesting conversations.  The odds were high for it with groups up to 20 players.  Most of the time, the Loot/Resources gathered had a value and there was always a chance to score something useful (i.e. Legedary Weapons).  The intensity to grind was high also when xp was traded for Jedi xp during the Village Unlock period for Jedi.  I found grinding most fun when there was a quest goal attached such as the Padwan or Knight Trials.  The only grind in SWG that about killed me was the Crafting Grind.  Grinding for (Force Sensitive) Master Crafter just about did me in.  Why was this tolarble?  These were forms of Achievement that were very rewarding for gameplay.  This would still be true if Jedi was not a starting profession and a alpha class in the NGE.

The public has spoken, however, and Sandbox MMO gameplay do not make the big bucks.  In truth, what MMO is a 2nd rate smash hit compared to WOW?  Nobody else has come close to hitting those numbers.  I think the question is more than what did Blizzard do right but why hasn't anyone repeated Blizzards success?

I agree that grinding is much of a solution to content when enough can't be developed.  I would also say that any content in (payed for) expansions that award high xp is a built in mechanic to sell the product.  There is good and bad with grinding and having alternatives to any system or sub-system can't be bad.  Variety is the spice of life.  Though the game has troubles, I think Vanguard did something great to add the Negoiation (Political) system in as an alternative to fighting.

Alright, if tax is satisfied to the Koren Government, who is going to pay the US Duty on the "Service" rendered?  This is a Trade without a existing agreement inforced by the business or governing agents.

Heh,

What I find socially ironic is well fed, time free ethically lax Westerners buying from impovershed, starving, laborers from the far East.  I know that the money mainly goes to the handlers but I do like that they some how benefit from the excess of the well off.  I just don't like that there is no accountability or responcibilty (in mass) for the money.

This is my own overall verdit of why SWG has not been the success wanted:

SWG has never at any version (Pre-CU, CU, NGE) been polished, bug free, complete or stable to the general acceptance of the MMORPG market.

This is why they lost Japan and continue to loose subs today.  Changing philosphies only compounded the troubles that existed with implimenting an incomplete new system. 

Originally posted by Owyn
I don't see taxes being an issue.  If it's LEGAL, then people can sell the items, and the buyer is required to pay sales taxes to their state, same as any other over-the-internet purchase.  The fact that ALL of those purchases are hard to track, and therefore almost never collected on, is a much bigger issue than game items will EVER be!  ;)  Anyway - if it remains ILLEGAL, then of course there is no tax, because you cannot sell an item which does not belong to you, thus there is no sale to be taxed in the first place.  Finally, if selling items were deemed ILLEGAL, but paying someone for the service of collecting something for you is deemed legal, then again - no sales tax, because you're paying for a service and not for an item.

Short form - unless the courts do a 180 degree reversal on their stance regarding online property, the government is never going to get any taxes from virtual item sales.  It's illegal to sell the items, rendering any such sale untaxable, and the questionable 'sale of services' method, if legal, isn't taxable either (except as possible income tax, which is already being paid by the larger groups doing this).


Re: Cheating.  It doesn't bug me when a player cheats in a singleplayer game.  When they cheat in a multiplayer game, it effects every other player in that game, and therefore (if I am playing there) me.  I would vastly prefer it if online game companies made a stronger effort to eliminate cheaters of all sorts.  And if they can't, then drop the rule - having rules to a game which you cannot enforce is just silly.

Let me broaden your view,

What about Money owed to the IRS from Korean Farmer Organizers?  Players are sending US dollars to non-US profitieers who do not pay a tax.  US costumers are not paying a sales tax on the services from the Gold Farmers.  How does the IRS get its money from this situation?  The answer will turn around and Bite the Game company that has made the situation.  This is why its a major issue.  Who is going to pay the tax?  There is large sums being exchanged and Uncle Sam wants his share.

Reguardless of your time, fun, cheating, honor or ethics, these games are implemented so companies can make money.  "Follow the Money" and you will discover true intention.  With that, above all else, money must, has to be kept straight and legal as possible.  As we have seen, companies can cheat players on thier games but they can't cheat the US government on its "game".

Hmmm,

Maybe the Real World rules of Econemy don't apply to the standard MMO model.  Real World, people will always be online, MMO World people might not "wake up" for months.

As someone posted above, Crafting is treated as the bastard stepchild by the developers on whole.  Why should that not carry over to the Econemy as well?  Its not Combat (which is universily accepted as the only entertainment of value) so why bother with further understanding it or developing it fully?  I applaud Vanguard for creating the Political System as an alternative to combat.  I would push for this avenue to have stronger Economic ties to results than "kill and steal" based action.

IMHO

Hmm,

This artical has done one thing positive, posters to this topic have brought a lot of info to the subject.  I agree that UO being attacked is unjustified 8 to 10 years after the fact.  Name a MMO that has lasted that long without addressing its troubles in patches and fixes?  I clearly remeber hearing about the PKing in UO and deciding that was not the game for me (in '97).  Things have changed and I have a different view and perception of MMO's.  This artical is ammo for the World Simulator Vs. Casual Game War.  I just see it as 2 different Catagories to the MMO market. Somegames have shades of both but usally fall in either.

What would make a solution to this situation?  How about a Casual (Single player driven, Quest guided, Level grinding) Game that once you Master, Unlocks a World Simulator.  You learn the basic combat moves with the Casual game set and basic machanics but to qualifiy for the full world you have to graduate as a master of your chosen path.  Once Master, you then can develop your character based on Skill Tree and customize to your hearts content.  The Casual Game would be much more than a Tutorial but not as detailed and intricate as the full World.  From my understanding, this is the flaw of WOW.  There is little more to achieve after you reach level 60(now 70).  Adding new adventure areas is fun to explore but adding new Achievements is the spice of a good game.

Just an idea.  Either way, this thread got me to thinking and thats what the author really should have wanted.

Originally posted by wormywyrm

Well, I know its SoE and all, but   At least its something that sounds different.

You guys are so quick to attack SoE, it is just getting a little ridiculous.  I'm an SWG refugee, and I still hold a grudge against SoE, and still absolutely hate the SWG dev team...  But try not to let it blind you or anything.    I respect SoE for taking chances with all the innoventive gameplay that SWG first had (HAM, entertainers, amazing economy, highly customizable profession system and highly customizable characters, ect), and the innoventive ideas Planetside introduced (MMOFPS and base capture).  I also think Vanguard could really be adding something to games with its introduction of diplomacy, fellowships, and interesting scheme of traveling.

Its not hard to find mistakes in such a huge coorporation, not only because of the sheer amount of games that SoE has made but because the coorporate structure of this producer means a lot of buerucracy that can hinder the dev teams of each game and cause a lot of confusion/chaos. 

So would I rather have SoE announce a new game, rather than another producer?  Not really...  But I'm not going to dismiss the game as crap and try to convince everyone else to do the same just because SoE is making it. 

QFE,

All should remeber that SOE has LA involved in SWG.  All marketing is done by Lucas Arts along with decisions we are not told.  This new MMO will be thier own baby like EQ and EQ2.

I just hope that Group Play will be akin to Mission Impossible (the TV series).  PVE like Bond or even McGyver.  PVP, well we all know what that will be like.  Have to wonder, did Spy in SWG influance development?  I hope not.

Ownership is a big issue but what it comes down to is tax.  Who is going to pay the taxes?  Ebay is doing right by its customers by avoiding being involved.  How can this exchange be legally instituted with regard to taxation, curancy exchange and ownership?  I see this even effecting game play issues.  More games are going to alternate and multi currancy/crafting mechanisms to throw off the single currancy pools that farmers can cater.  It will be interesting to see where this will all goes.

Real money for nothing.

"The bigger the lie, the more people will believe it."  Hitler

Originally posted by thepatriot
I'm still waiting for any developer who hopes to imitate WoW realizing that what WoW did differently was releasing a quality  completed (meaning content was available for all levels) stable game.  The mechanics of the rules don't matter nearly so much as that is just another way to compute 2+2=4.  Quality is the true innovation of WoW.

QFE,

In a nutshell, you have stated the problem with SWG.  Other games might show this same trouble but SWG is the prime example of Marketing dictating design.  SWG has not been Polished, Bug Free, Stable or Complete to the standards of acceptance of the MMORPG market at any point in its history (Pre-CU, CU or NGE).  I believe there is much discourse between SOE and LEC on what should be done and when it should be done.  Quality just doen't play into the discussions at a cost of "boxes sold".   Add to this attention (Subs) dictates priority and you will see little more investment to the product.  Quick and Easy money over quality will kill any game.

hmm,

It seems the answer is in all of your discussions.  A good MMORPG should have content that will allow a character to solo to full level.  Every expansion should add additional matterial if the Level Cap is increased.  Have a fully explored experiance for the Solo player.

Seperate from Solo content should be group progression.  Instances, Caves, Dungeons that only certain levels or Group/only characters can enter and explore.  If the Solo player feels discriminated, he/she should continue their Solo Path until they reach the level that will allow their progression in that setting.  What I am saying is there should be a 3 systems with Solo only, Hybrid Solo/Group requirement and Group only content.  Where is the trouble in this?  The only complaint I see is Solo players angry if loot in Group Only content is somehow better or unique.  CoH is sorta like this as is DDO with Level/Group setting instances.

I have had both gratification in Solo play and Group play.  When cooperation with groups happens for the greater good it is a good feeling to know that it all comes together.  The real trouble is when Group play is required for the benefit of just 1 member.  Doing the same effort for a different individual becomes boring and you will loose members.  This is where I can say I like DDO in providing Loot for every party member spacifically.  Profession/Class Spacific Quest Rewards would be nice too.

Leveling is important for the growth and understanding of a given character.  However, leveling is only one roadblock for a MMO player.  After a character is Master/Max level, there should be a whole new Tier of adventure and or progress.  This Area is viewed as the End Game, but why does it have to end?  What would be a fun Alternitave to PVP and Raiding in a enviroment where no one is worried about leveling anymore?  Rank Status could be a goal but needs to be more intuitive then a grind.  It should unlock more content and not just high level abilities.  Much of this is viewed as another "carrot dangling" but it could help the longevity of a MMO if done well.

Just a few thoughts...

Merry Christmas  Ya'll