Originally posted by Disarmonia

Originally posted by Ortwig

The solution is to keep impatient, antisocial speedrunners as far away as possible from the casual, friendly social people in the game.  It's really simple: these groups don't like each other and don't want to play with each other.  What do people in real life do?  Go play with people of similar interests; the "community" is formed of people who gravitate toward their own tribe.

Simple solution on the group selector for style preference:

• Expert
• Speed
• Casual/social
• Beginner
• Experimental/Practice
• RP

I really do find this topic fascinating and I like your response, except the very broad dualistic view of casual people being friendly, and then the rest, crazy unfriendly antisocial degenerate people without the understanding that what happens to another person directly affects self, and if said "friendly' group was actually friendly maybe some empathy would help bridge the gap.  Afterall, there must be something in common if both people chose the same game and same server...

Oh, and if my response was a little terse it was due to this statement:

You look at me as the problem with MMOs. I find that amusing. It is people like you that are the real problem and have been since the begining of the genre. You don't act in a MMORPG as you would in the real world. You abuse the people around you because you can. You have a total lack of respect for this community ideal that you seem to hold in such high regard. All I do is ignore people. People like you take advantage of them. LOL...and I'm the problem.

The speedrunners look at social gamers as inconsiderate and wasting their time, while the social gamers look at the speedrunners as impatient and antisocial.  It's tough to foster any kind of empathy when no communication is taking place, hence my distaste for autogrouping tools: they foster lack of communication and lack of empathy.  But if they are to exist, at least give people the option to the experience they prefer.  But, no, they are still no substitute for actual talking (which the speedrunners don't want to do.)

Originally posted by Disarmonia

Originally posted by Ortwig

The solution is to keep impatient, antisocial speedrunners as far away as possible from the casual, friendly social people in the game.  It's really simple: these groups don't like each other and don't want to play with each other.  What do people in real life do?  Go play with people of similar interests; the "community" is formed of people who gravitate toward their own tribe.

Simple solution on the group selector for style preference:

• Expert
• Speed
• Casual/social
• Beginner
• Experimental/Practice
• RP

Congregation leads to segregration which leads to isolation and alienation.  It's practical and does help remedy the situation for a short period of time.  Being anti-social doesn't mean one isn't capable of speaking, it just someone who goes against what the "norm" has been socialised to accept as proper behavior to not disturb the tribe as a whole, so the comfort level and complacency is kept in check. 

I really do find this topic fascinating and I like your response, except the very broad dualistic view of casual people being friendly, and then the rest, crazy unfriendly antisocial degenerate people without the understanding that what happens to another person directly affects self, and if said "friendly' group was actually friendly maybe some empathy would help bridge the gap.  Afterall, there must be something in common if both people chose the same game and same server...

A lot of the hype of social disorders been portrayed in the media and the awareness about it these days show lack of empathy with those who carry sorrow with them because, the societal game that people have choosen is.. tiresome.

Whatever, can I quote Bill Hicks?  Yes I can.  I'm sure have already heard this before, yet I always find it refreshing.

"The world is like a ride at an amusement park, and when you choose to go on it, you think it's real, because that's how powerful our minds are. And the ride goes up and down and round and round and it has thrills and chills and it's very brightly colored and it's very loud. And it's fun, for a while.

Some people have been on the ride for a long time, and they begin to question: 'Is this real? Or is this just a ride?' And other people have remembered, and they come back to us and they say 'Hey! Don't worry, don't be afraid -- ever -- because... this is just a ride.' And we kill those people.

'Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride! Shut him up! Look at my furrows of worry; look at my big bank account, and my family. This has to be real.' It's just a ride. But we always kill those good guys who try and tell us that -- ever notice that? -- and we let the demons run amok. But it doesn't matter, because... it's just a ride, and we can change it any time we want. It's only a choice. No effort. No worry. No job. No savings and money. Just a choice, right now, between fear and love. The eyes of fear want you to put bigger locks on your door, buy bigger guns, close yourself off. The eyes of love, instead, see all of us as one.

Here's what we can do to change the world, right now, into a better ride. Take all that money we spend on weapons and defense each year and, instead, spend it feeding, clothing and educating the poor of the world, which it would do many times over -- not one human being excluded -- and we can explore space together, both inner and outer, forever. In peace." ~ Bill Hicks

So make the selections checkboxes rather than radio buttons.  ;)  

I see what you are saying and I agree,  And maybe at some point a person who is "casual" wants to do a speedrun because they are limited for time.  And someone who has been speedrunning wants to slow down and smell the roses.  There's always room to change your mode.

Originally posted by Alberel

The only 'solution' to grind is to offer more variety in gameplay. The problem? Everyone wants to rush to 'endgame' and thus ignores any alternatives and does nothing but the single fastest way to the top (which inevitably becomes repetitive). The problem isn't just the game itself but the attitude a lot of players have to games. I see countless people call games grindy despite there being a huge variety of things on offer; in reality they just choose to only do one thing (and this is usually either endlessly questing or endlessly killing mobs).

IMO the true solution to the grind problem is to actually remove the incentive to rush to the top so fast, giving players reasons to play around with the game's other features. This would mean either removing the level concept entirely (although then something else would become the grind) or make the path to the top so long that rushing it just isn't realistic.

Those oldschool 'grindy' MMOs? They didn't actually feel all that grindy... the path to the top took so long that most players stopped caring about getting there and simply played for fun. My linkshell (guild) in FFXI used to do all sorts of crazy stuff besides levelling, in fact we spent most of our time helping each other with missions or job-related quests. We all eventually hit the cap (75 at the time) and we felt amazing for doing it because it had seemed like such a distant goal. None of us felt we had 'grinded' to get there.

tldr; 'Grind' isn't just repetitive gameplay, it's often players ignoring the other features of a game in the interest of rushing to the cap.

^  Think I am with you 100% on this one.

Originally posted by GreenHell

Originally posted by CalmOceans

Originally posted by GreenHell

On what game?

Does it matter? Are we going to play the "one game has a horrible community and the other doesn't" card? Does it really matter? The act is the same no matter what game it was. If you do this crap in WoW or in Eve it is the same. It's not about the game it is about the lack of respect that you obviously have no problem with.

It matters since I assume it's an LFD game, which is exactly why you are having issues. LFD raids often have anonymous PUG raids and people tend to go AFK and you get the dramaqueens and arguments you talk about.

It has happened to me in every game before and after a LFG tool was created. Once again I believe your logic to be flawed. Some how in your mind if you know those 60 other people its just fine to make them wait for you. No!!! No its not. I played SWG pre-cu and the crap happened then. It has always happened because people like you feel its ok to be a inconvenience to other people and you try to justify it to yourself by saying " oh they understand..they are my friends"

You look at me as the problem with MMOs. I find that amusing. It is people like you that are the real problem and have been since the begining of the genre. You don't act in a MMORPG as you would in the real world. You abuse the people around you because you can. You have a total lack of respect for this community ideal that you seem to hold in such high regard. All I do is ignore people. People like you take advantage of them. LOL...and I'm the problem.

The solution is to keep impatient, antisocial speedrunners as far away as possible from the casual, friendly social people in the game.  It's really simple: these groups don't like each other and don't want to play with each other.  What do people in real life do?  Go play with people of similar interests; the "community" is formed of people who gravitate toward their own tribe.

Simple solution on the group selector for style preference:

• Expert
• Speed
• Casual/social
• Beginner
• Experimental/Practice
• RP

Originally posted by Aroton

No, LFG didnt ruin games communities. People ruined communities.

The reality is, its all about who is playing the game. In the past, only people with LOTS of time played mmos. Now, people with very limited time play, and so the "community" suffers because they appear to be dicks about efficient use of time.

Its really that simple.

A lot could be solved if there were just a few selectable options on these tools:

• Pro-player (prefer fast, expert runs)
• Casual/social (prefer chat and leisurely pace) 
• Beginner/experimental (teaching newbies or trying new tactics)
• RP (roleplaying group)

Originally posted by Ghavrigg
A game without some sort of grind would get old and boring incredibly quick. With nothing to work towards, there's nothing to look forward to, thus no reason to continue playing.

^ See what I mean?  ;)

Originally posted by KaosProphet

Originally posted by Ortwig

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Ortwig

Originally posted by Vhaln

Originally posted by Ortwig
People say they hate grind, but when it is removed people whine about not having "enough to do."

because what they really mean, is that they hate games where there isn't much to do, except grind.

Actually what it really means is that some people like grind, but won't admit it.

Well if they like the activity, they it is no longer monotonous or unpleasant right?  Therefore it's not a grind anymore.

To some, doing something montonous or repititous is not unpleasant.  

To some, being beaten senseless with a steel rod is a turn on.  And while I am in full support of risk-aware consensual kink, I'm not about to go proselytizing it's virtues to the skeptical.

(Although in fairness, I must admit that I have and likely will do so regarding other analogs...)

Unfortunately, there are more people who like being beaten with steel rods (and won't admit it) than you think.   I'm not one of them, just sayin...

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Ortwig

Originally posted by Vhaln

Originally posted by Ortwig
People say they hate grind, but when it is removed people whine about not having "enough to do."

because what they really mean, is that they hate games where there isn't much to do, except grind.

Actually what it really means is that some people like grind, but won't admit it.

Well if they like the activity, they it is no longer monotonous or unpleasant right?  Therefore it's not a grind anymore.

To some, doing something montonous or repititous is not unpleasant.  

Originally posted by Vhaln

Originally posted by Ortwig
People say they hate grind, but when it is removed people whine about not having "enough to do."

because what they really mean, is that they hate games where there isn't much to do, except grind.

Actually what it really means is that some people like grind, but won't admit it.

Yeah, it's tough to pick one since each approach makes sense in different situations.  My standard solo tactic (Blade/Chaos) is to start off with the Quantum Brace, do a Chaotic Pull, then Art of War to Impair everyone, Reality Fracture for the AOE then Escalation for weakened state.  Lots of dodging and moving in between, with Matadaor as a good builder.  

Doesn't work so well when you need to single target someone though!  Lately playing around with Shotgun and Elementalism.  Very different/kitey feel on those...  :)

Originally posted by Doogiehowser

Originally posted by Ortwig

Originally posted by Doogiehowser

Originally posted by kevjards

Originally posted by azzamasin

Still no dungeon finder means still no me playing.

yeah way to go..lets all stand round like the mobs and be zombies.dungeon finder is the biggest mistake in any gaming today.everybody just remains static.not my idea of fun.

yeah because spamming LFG is so much better. I forgot spamming is what you guys consider socializing. My bad!

But yeah i want that whip..looks sexy.

People (including current players) seem to keep missing some key stuff about grouping.

• Many people group in the zones themselves, through chat (not spamming, just talking) or through the LFG tool.  Especially true in Kingsmouth

        You can invite anyone to group across dimensions, so no "server" limitation

• Agartha is cross-dimension and that's why many people lobby/spam there to do nightmare mode dungeons.  Thing is, there's the FAL mod, which allows you to queue from anywhere without the spam.  So no need to do that at all -- some people like it, I guess
• The most fun groups for from simple conversations out in the zones.
• There's plenty of cabals that specialize in casual/experimental/harcore dungeon runs, so lots of way to find a group that suits your style

Auto groupers suck and destroy communities, and I'm not talking about spamming LFG.  They foster stfu/get-in/get-out behavior, even for people who might want to chat a bit as they are doing a run.

What is 'grouping by just talking' even supposed to mean?

Is that your way to make the spam in agartha look better? because it does not. All grouping at higher levels id done in Agartha and it is nothing but a spam fest. Want to have a conversation about other apsects of the game in there? well good luck because you will be drowned in spam. 

FAL is user made mod we are talking about official LFG window. It is sad that this 'spam' is what passes for community these days. And by the way i have been in plenty of groups (fully 10.3 at the moment) and people don't want to chat in groups while doing a run. Nothing is more annoying than some chap blabbering while others are trying to focus on elite and hard mode mobs.

Even now it is STFU, quick run, loot, bye and rinse and repeat. And if you are already in a kick ass CABAl which is available for you 24 hours (you lucky..you)..than why not let those who are not so lucky have a LFG tool? you can still stick with your super duper Cabal.

Well, early dungeons you can just chat in general, such as -- "hey wanna do a dungeon run?"  "Sure, ok, which one?"  Etc. It happens all the time for normals and elites out in the zones.  People who want to do social dungeons don't generally start in Agartha.

For the higher levels you mention (nightmares), I'll just leave these here:

http://forums.thesecretworld.com/showthread.php?t=62768

http://forums.thesecretworld.com/showthread.php?t=63415

FAL extends LFG and works perfectly, extending the bulletin board features across zones without auto grouping.  No need to stand in Agartha anymore if you use it -- it works across all zones, so go do some missions while you wait for an invite.  I'm much happier with a mod community extending functionality while allowing the devs to work on content and bigger improvements to the game.  

Here's another key -- good for 72 hours.  Have fun!

GTNRP5QQ26XPLJDDXDRZ

Woo-hoo another poll!  :)  So as you are playing TSW, what's your fighting style?  Is it influenced by other games you play or have played recently?  Or are you trying something new?  How does it feel compare to other games of choice?  What do those games do that you like/don't like?  

This is a poll for people playing regularly, so if you're not playing just check out the results.

For those who end up purchasing the game, remember that you get 3 buddy keys as well -- don't forget to share them:

If you log in to your TSW account at https://register.thesecretworld.com/account, you will see on the left side of your screen a link that says "Invite a Buddy!" If you click on that you'll see inputs for 3 email addresses. You simply need to to enter an email address and then send the key.

Originally posted by DamonVile

So do you have to keep buying content packs once you get into the game or is it just the box price + cosmentics ext on a cash shop ?

I never like the " off the cart " style of shop for content and game features.

Box price gets you the main game + the first 4 DLC packs.  Issues 5 and 6 must be purchased in the cash shop, but the 1200 points from the Amazon deal will be enough for one of those.  Shop also sells pets and clothes as well as boosts, inventory slots, etc. 

There are no level or zone restrictions at all, however, nor are there any character, UI or ability locks.

Originally posted by Doogiehowser

Originally posted by kevjards

Originally posted by azzamasin

Still no dungeon finder means still no me playing.

yeah way to go..lets all stand round like the mobs and be zombies.dungeon finder is the biggest mistake in any gaming today.everybody just remains static.not my idea of fun.

yeah because spamming LFG is so much better. I forgot spamming is what you guys consider socializing. My bad!

But yeah i want that whip..looks sexy.

People (including current players) seem to keep missing some key stuff about grouping.

• Many people group in the zones themselves, through chat (not spamming, just talking) or through the LFG tool.  Especially true in Kingsmouth
• You can invite anyone to group across dimensions, so no "server" limitation
• Agartha is cross-dimension and that's why many people lobby/spam there to do nightmare mode dungeons.  Thing is, there's the FAL mod, which allows you to queue from anywhere without the spam.  So no need to do that at all -- some people like it, I guess
• The most fun groups for from simple conversations out in the zones.
• There's plenty of cabals that specialize in casual/experimental/harcore dungeon runs, so lots of way to find a group that suits your style