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All Posts by aesperus

All Posts by aesperus

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Nicely written article Bill.

I think one of the things to keep in mind, though (going off the original quote at the top of your article), is that's not how consumers (gamers) think. Your source is absolutely right, though. This is a creative industry, and as such we grow from our failures, and things like growing pains are a very real part of paving the way forward. The problem is, while most developers are keen on trying new things, on experimenting with new ways to make a game and new mechanics to put in them; gamers are fighting to keep more of the same. We even reflect this in our spending habits as we significantly fund sequels more than new IPs. This tug of war isn't unique to MMOs by any means, but it most definitely exists within this genre.

The problem with WoW (and games like it), is it shows a potential trend that is VERY unsettling. Essentially it's the 'first = best' mentality. Where the first game to popularize a genre essentially takes all the players. It's not quite a trend yet, but it could easily become one. We have this with WoW, we have it with Minecraft, and we have it w/ League of Legends. And in each genre other games trying to expand on them struggle. Ironically out of the 3 MMOs seem to be doing the best, whereas most MOBAs fade fast (with Smite being one of the only ones to really carve out a niche for itself). For builder/ sandbox games like Minecraft, no one plays terraria, or starbound, or rust anymore.

I hope that as games continue to evolve, so do we as players. There are many good games out there, with more being made every year. They may not be in our preferred genre, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be giving them a fair chance. And if the above trend becomes more of a reality, then the only real innovation we're going to see will be outside our comfort zones.

I find it ironic how many people are saying 'F2P killed this genre' when (with the exceptions of WoW and EvE) most of the games today would be gone if still on the sub model.

Hate the model all you want, but there is a reason everyone's been switching over to it. And it's not out of some hipster 'this is the newest cool thing' mentality. Most people (studios and players) were against the F2P model when it was first brought to light. But after numerous examples people began to see that it was one of the best ways to save a game dying on the sub model. And that's still true today.

Originally posted by Grimmx

I have played lots of MMO's, but i think i need players that actually stuck to their MMO's and did pvp on a high lvl to tell me why they like pvp in THEIR game.

Im mostly playing solo. I dont like pay to win games.

Id dont like EVE...i need to play a character.

I dont mind grinding, but skill should matter the most. Not only template/gear.

Thanks to anyone taking the time to answer.  :)

It really depends on what you consider 'good' PvP. Different styles of PvP function very differently, and based on your preference different games will be your answer.

If you're looking for large scale warfare (RvR), then it'd have to be between DAoC, GW2, and ESO. Keep in mind this style of combat focuses more on group strategy, than personal skill. Because of this, it can seem 'zergy' unless you are playing with a group that's coordinated (which every single one of those games has). It makes a huge difference between solo playing around 100s of players, and being part of a larger force using tactics & baiting other armies into bad situations.

If you're looking for more personal skill-based PvP, you have a few options. GW2 has probably the most skill-based on the market currently. It's matchmaking can be a bit messy at times (i.e. sometimes you get qued with / against pretty bad teams), but overall it's very well done, and a good player can win against multiple other lesser-skilled opponents. Even with a more fragile build. Don't confuse this w/ WvW, because GW2 has 2 different kinds of PvP (3 if you count EotM). Structured PvP (the PvP lobby) is a much smaller scale (5v5) pvp mode that is anything but zergy.

If ur willing to try MOBAs, Smite is one of the best MOBAs on the market right now, and it's combat feels very similar to that of an MMO. It's very skillbased, and has a lot of depth if you're willing to take it that far strategically.

If you want more casual (less-skill heavy) pvp games there are FFXIV, Rift, WoW, TSW, SWTOR, etc. They all have semi-fun bite sized pvp, but they're all pretty shallow gameplay wise.


Originally posted by maskedweasel
Originally posted by aesperus

No I understand, I'm not saying I'm "ANGRY" in the sense that like.. I'm really mad about it.. the anger is very shallow.. I don't really care that much about the living story.. and I have enough gems right now to buy all of them if I wanted to.  

I just don't follow GW2 that much, I wasn't aware the change would happen,  so in a sense I guess its "my fault"  in a way.  But I don't really remember an e-mail campaign about it either.   In the end its not something that really drives me away from the game.  Again, the LS portions that I do have access to, I don't really play.. so this isn't a huge loss for me. 

Gotchya, that is understandable. It's purely psychological, but it does make sense.

The emails, tweets, and reddit posts were there (in addition to their own forums). And tbh, I hadn't been following the game that closely either (I took close to 2 years off from playing the game), but i happen to check my emails as regularly as I can, and read that they were doing so. So I made the effort to log in every couple of weeks to access the parts of the story I didn't already miss out on.

And tbh you aren't missing out on a whole lot (unless you're an achievement player). Though season 2 is a huge improvement from season 1, it's still bite-sized canned content. And it does have room for improvement.

Most everything of value in the game currently is still available for everyone. Which is why it's kind of annoying at how big of a deal this got made out to be. From where I'm sitting it seems a lot like entitlement and splitting hairs.

Originally posted by stevebombsquad
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
Originally posted by stevebombsquad
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
Originally posted by Kyleran
Perhaps some customers are more desirable than others and maybe having an early paywall helps them separate the wheat from the chaff.

A player that can't be arsed to log in once in 2 weeks or pay $2.5 for a few hours  of play and some grind option in form of achievements, isn't exactly a customer.

They bought the box, right? Just like you did. How does that make them any less of a customer? Just because you play more makes you more entitled? 

We bought the same box and we got exactly the same content from that box.

The Living World Story is paid by the Cash Shop revenue, not by the box price.

The community expressed to Arenanet the interest in having a more permanent Season 2 that could be played at everyone's own pace.

Arenanet explained we can do that but the objective of the Living World is to keep people logging in so if you log in you get this content permanently, if you don't you might buy it at a later time.

People that log in spend more money apparently and/or keep the game alive for those that spend.

I chose to log in every 2 weeks at least once when Living World was on - I got the content free of charge.

He chose not to do so. He has some of the content, including the main meat of Living World Season 2, Dry top and Silverwastes free of charge and some other he can buy it at his own pace, with in game money or real world money.

This is a balanced relation between customer and service provider.

What you and the OP are claiming is "who cares about Arenanet as a business? It is all about me!".

They paid for the game right? Then they are customers. You said they weren't. Just logging in does not equate to spending money. I can see the point of the people that are complaining. I am sure they did this to have people log in. It makes the numbers look good for NCSOFT/NEXON as far as active log-ins and it keeps them relevant for a portion of the player base would would most likely log-in at the end or afterwards and consumed the paltry content in the 10 or so hours and move on until another season had passed. 

They may be customers in the technical sense, but if they haven't been playing the game for sizeable chunk of time, they aren't active, and thus aren't relevant to the current situation. I once bought a candy bar from Walmart 10 years ago. I haven't been there since. Am I still a customer of Walmart? Of course not. And haven't been considered one for some time.

Of course it's a ploy to get people to pay their game. It's got nothing to do with some overly exaggerated boardroom meeting (ala Brain Candy). Sure it makes the numbers look good, but ANY game developer would be retarded to not try and bring players to their game. It's common sense, and is good for the game. All games (and especially MMOs) need people playing them to survive. It's part of how the world works.

It is not uncommon for companies to have special deals, or giveaways to REWARD those who are paying / active customers. In every case, those who are inactive / abscent customers do not get the benefits. It's not because they are somehow 'second rate', it's because they either weren't paying attention, or didn't care enough to capitalize on the special offers.

And that is exactly what is happening here. This was a deal that was ADDED to the game. It's an addition, and not something that was part of the original game. The original game had episodic, temporary living story content. You played it for a month, and then it was gone. Regardless of if you completed it or not. This new addition makes it easier for everyone to go back and experience that content / get achievements they may have missed. But it's a service like any other. There is no reason it has to be free. The game is extremely reasonable cost-wise as it is. They do need to make money somehow.

Originally posted by maskedweasel
Originally posted by loyheta

The level of entitlement is impressive. Seriously? Would you feel better if they never let you replay LS content? People would be clamoring and screaming "I bought the box I should be able to play all content all the time at any time... and solo it!!!!1!!". That's like going to a movie late and asking them to start it over for you. It's the LIVING story. It was always set to be a temporary ever-evolving story and world. The fact that they let you replay it is great. It's a bonus. Most games don't let you replay pre-game-changing events. You don't see FFXIV letting you play 1.0 or WoW letting you play pre-Cataclysm. I really don't understand the mental gymnastics people have to do to justify their reasoning.

Living Story was never intended to be replayed. Enjoy the privilege that a few dollars will grant you. Otherwise, just log in for it.

Thats an even worse argument.  If they didn't let anyone else play it AFTER the time it was allowed, then it would be just like any other seasonal event.  Nobody complains about seasonal events.

If they said "For 200 gems you can play the Halloween Mad King event all year around, but people who were there on Halloween get it for free forever" people would probably be unhappy with that too.  If everyone has access to something, its okay,  if people get special treatment when others have to pay, people are unhappy.  If you say.. "Come join the Halloween event, ONLY HERE FOR 30 DAYS or you miss out"  everyone is in the same boat... people have a choice to experience it or not,  if they miss it, then they miss it.

I think the thing that has me the most angry about it, is that I didn't know that they would charge for it later,  and had I known it would be available and they would charge for it.. I probably would have logged in just to get the content for no reason.  Even though I don't really play the LS stuff...

I think more people would agree with your anger if they weren't forthcoming and transparent about this addition well before they actually added it. They essentially said 'previous living story content was a 1 time thing, and if you weren't logged on while it was happening you were SOL. Now you have the option to play older story content you may have missed via the cash shop'. Which is honestly fair. It's content that was given out free.

This whole uproar reminds me of how people complained with EQN, when they bought the game at full price and they had a sale like a year later. It's like everyone wants their games to exist in a vacuum. And nothing works that way. Not even single player games. There are always promotions, deals, and new ways that games try to make money.

I get that it feels bad to have to pay for something you could've gotten for free. Truly I do. And I also missed out on a few episodes of the LS because I wasn't sure if I would come back to the game or not. But I did, and I sucked it up and unlocked the content because I was interested in trying it out from the beginning, and it honestly wasn't that costly to unlock. Gold is incredibly easy to come by in this game, and you don't need to play like a stock broker to get it. You can unlock each episode after a day or two worth of farming, if that's the route you wish to take. Or just spend 10$ and get a few unlocked.

This isn't something unique to this game. Promotions happen all the time, and there are frequently things given away or sold for cheap that have real value. People view this like an unequal opportunity, but it isn't. Every had the same chance (and will continue to have the same chance) of getting LS content for free, permanently. There is even a pretty modest window for acquiring each episode.

This should just be another lesson in consumer awareness (being smart about spending, and mindful of deals happening around you). Instead, it's become a discussion of entitlement. People believing they should be given content that was never permanent in the original game. And indeed was originally supposed to be completely temporary. Meaning you (and everyone else) would've missed out on it forever, if you weren't playing at that time.

Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by tryklon
Originally posted by Bladestrom
So what are you going to do :

Play Free and pick up the questlines later with gold

Buy for free and buy the questlines with gems

Wish for the game to be sub based.

Or complain about some free beerz solution over and above the above?

There you go, Im gonna wish the game was sub based and/or let me play at my pace, and be able to play the past quests/world stories with a decent and well made "Phasing System", like Warcraft or Elder Scrolls... (this last one becoming B2P soon)

For now, Im gonna simple give up GW2 and move on, since a game that blocks the story to new/returning players, is not what I would call fair, especially to PvE driven players.

You keep using the word unfair, but I think you're wrong. They were more than fair. They offered an option to get the content at no additional charge. They let you just buy it with money and they also let you convert in game resources to gems and purchase through game play. On top of that the game you purchased with the box fee is still completely available plus there is more that has been added at no additional charge outside of the LS updates.

They sent out emails when they were going to launch an update. They sent out emails when they launched an update. You had about 2 weeks to log in and get it for free. All it took was logging in and clicking on the green star in the UI. Log back out and you're done.

What is unrealistic is to expect a flexible system to cater to your personal whims or needs. At some point you need to take responsibility for your own choices. The free option was there but you ignored it.

I dont agree, it should be free for all or paid for all. The gate is not how much you already paid into the game its a log in date. I dont see your this is fair stand in this.

Firstly, if this game went sub, everyone would be paying more than people are bitching about currently. A lot more.

Secondly, this content was originally temporary. As in, you wouldn't even have the option of playing it currently if they were still on the old system. It would be gone, along w/ all the achievements tied with them. This new system was added to give players the option to go back and play the temporary content they'd missed.

They sent out multiple emails, reddit posts, and notifications stating 'hey this is happening, if you're still interested in the game you can just log in to get it for free, but if not you will have to pay for it later to experience that content'. They were crystal clear on that.

Now that an expansion is announced, it's entitlement city all over again. All over content people have been bashing on this game for years now. This is the same Living Story content everyone said was crap. And now people are upset that they can't play it without some gems. It seems very petty tbh.

And I have to ask, how the hell have you managed to spend 400$ on this game? Did you buy the deluxe edition for a full family of people? And then proceed to fully upgrade their accounts as well (character slots, bank tabs, etc. etc.) I'm honestly curious. I've spent roughly 80$ total since this games beta. I took over a year off from the game, and I've still managed to unlock almost everything I've wanted from the cash shop, using mostly gold I've earned in game.


Originally posted by Flyte27

I'm not certain how items should be given to players. 

I'm not certain I like all this group and raid content to get items.

The idea of having things be a random drop seems kind of sucky, but it makes sense to an extent.  

I was reading The Hobbit again last night.  The Trolls they got Sting, Orcrist, and Glamdring off of were just blind luck.  They had no idea  those items were there.

Most of the people in Middle Earth were just using standard non magic weapons and armor.  Even in places like the Forgotten Realms most characters were using standard weapons like the shortsword, longsword, axe, war hammer, dagger, etc.  If the campaign went up to level 20+ then you might start seeing to crazy items.  I've heard from a lot of people that Baldur's Gate 1/2 had many powerful items you would not have seen normally in PnP.

In something like Forgotten Realms people might argue this doesn't make sense.  They might say we should have more enchanted items.

I believe weapons and armor of the standard type should be available off vendors for different prices.  Cloth should be very cheap to buy.  Leather should be a bit more expensive.  Mails should be a lot more expensive.   Plate armor should cost a lot of money and require a lot of saving.  Crafters should all be able to craft Weapons and Armor of better quality then was vendors have.  Powerful items in general should be somewhat rare.  Personally I could live without the whole Green, Blue, Purple, Gold, or whatever system.  I believe it simplifies things to much.  There doesn't need to be so many types of weapons and armor or such a focus on them. 

Characters should be more dependent on the skills they acquire and working on occasion working together then on how high their stats/attributes are or how much damage they do/prevent.

Perhaps weapons and armor being randomly placed could have some kind of story behind it.  Perhaps some hero died in some deep dungeon.  Then some trolls happened along and took the weapons for their cache.  They brought it with them on their journey to a far away land where they heard there were easy pickings of travelers on the road.

This is all my opinion so if you disagree that's fine.

Firstly, you're approaching things from a story / lore perspective, and not a gameplay one. So I'll get this out of the way and state the obvious. Games are a very different medium from Novels. They behave fundamentally different from one another, even though both can be used to tell a story.

In The Hobbit, they didn't get Sting, Orcrist, and Glamdring from sheer dumb luck. They got it because the author needed a plot device to aid the characters forward. He gave them that, and circumstance was the justification. When you're reading a good story, you don't think about that, because you are lost in the story itself, and not it's mechanics.

Games on the other hand are interactive. You don't get to finely tune each plot point without making your game literally be a choose-your-own-adventure story (i.e. Telltale games). And while in both novels and games things happen for a reason, the difference is that in novels those things can have a reason that only pertains to a single character, while a game needs reasons that apply to every player.

You could make a medieval fantasy simulator. Make it so that noone is special, everyone is wearing rags (or the lucky person some platemail), but that's not what people want to play. As Axehilt put it, no one wants to be a crap-covered peasant. Everyone wants to feel powerful. Which is why most games have powerful loot, have each player at the center of their own story, have encounters that are engineered for players to be victorious, instead of repeatedly punished.

You could do something like a Tolkein universe, in which magic was actually fairly uncommon. In which it mostly came from rare artifacts, one of the few wizards, or from very specific elf lords. But in doing so, no one could play as any of those cooler characters. Everyone would essentially be a foot soldier, a thief, or a peon.

It's certainly doable, but what would that world actually feel like to play in. Because I can guaruntee it won't feel like reading any of the books, or watching the movies. It'll feel a lot more like some depressing middle-age simulator. In which no one is special, nor has anything of value. But there is imaginary beer to enjoy, and holes in the woods to poop in.

Originally posted by Adjuvant1

The term "sandbox" has been mutated and adopted to mean, well, pretty much whatever the utterer cares so say it means, but generally, "any game in which the player has choices he can make which alter the flavor of his progression in the game". This wasn't always the case, as I've noted in previous posts. This has actually led to the editing of a wikipedia page, namely..

...which formerly included text to the point that "sandbox" was used incorrectly in the contexts you see nowadays. Similar wording is used in , which I expect to also see edited in coming days, now that I've brought it to light.

"A game that is significantly nonlinear is sometimes described as being open-ended or a sandbox, though that term is used incorrectly in those cases."

Note "open-ended" as opposed to "open world".

If the majority is consistently incorrect, this becomes "correct" I guess. It leads to silly and futile discussion of what the erroneously understood "sandbox" means to the gaming world, or ridiculous branching terms such as "sandpark", which really means nothing. I have alot of trouble taking these conversations seriously and I restrain myself actively from raging, because they're built from collectively misunderstood concepts and frankly, they're stupid.


What do we call games now in which "the player has the tools to modify the game, be they graphical or story aspect, during actual gameplay"? Should we go according to "roguelike" and call them "minecraftlike"? Should we invent a whole new word, now that it's become so convoluted and people have such a wrong idea that it has spawned its own bastardized relevant concept topics?

What have we done and what do we do now? Does it matter?

Except that minecraft IS a sandbox.

Sadly the way language works = popularity dictates correctness. Meaning that the more people misuse a word, that word eventually has it's definition 'updated' to correct the times. While this makes sense given the purpose of language, it also helps to reinforce ignorance. Kind of a catch 22.

Most MMOs that get labelled 'sandbox' are just 'open world' or 'non linear' MMORPGs. The difference is  that a sandbox has it's content derived from the players (they create the content), where-as non-linear refers to player choice, and open world refers to a lack of barriers (i.e. zones) within the game.

All 3 terms frequently get used interchangeably, because most people don't actually care what they mean, it's the first thing that comes to mind when they remember older games they liked. It's no different than how terms like 'p2w' have been so mutilated that they lose almost all meaning.

Originally posted by ikcin

Did the MMORPG players become a casual crowd in recent years?

Because in every forum like this you can see people are crying for pve, want to play with NPCs and complain about some gankfest and bad PvPers? It seems all the MMORPG players are victims, and there is no winners. So they do not want competition with other players and they ask for casual and easy games, that are mostly solo. 

Really there is a lot of casuals in MMORPGs. If you search for hardcore players, you can find millions in Mobas and solo RPGs. Literally every player of The Witcher series, Dark Souls series, Demon Souls series, and many people in LoL and WoT are hardcore players. Seems they do not play MMORPGs because there is no MMORPGs for them. 

But after WoW there is no major success on that market. Last big game was L2. It had terrible marketing, and the only reasons of its success were private servers, and the great game play.

MMORPG market is flooded with casual games. But if we compare that market with the dynamics of player base for video games worldwide we will see that it is fading. Even WoW reached its peak already.

Now casuals attack new games like Albion, calling them gankfest, failure with not enough pve, and showing incredible hate or fear from every element of competition between the players and sandbox features.

This happens whenever anything becomes popularized.

Everything begins to start catering to the lowest common denominator. There aren't as many hardcore gamers as you'd think, many of them overlap heavily across games as well (i.e. there really aren't many hardcores that only play dark souls, or only play league). There may be a million or 2 of those types of players total, but the entire market consists of 100s of millions of players.

Basically, MMO players haven't changed, but the amount (and types) of players willing to play an MMO have. It's a much larger market now than it was in the 'golden days', and demands per game have gone up substantially. What was acceptable in older MMOs will no longer hold up today.

Originally posted by VikingGamer

I think what is rubbing people wrong with this is not so much that you are paying for content as much as you are paying for content that was given free to others. If Anet had charged everyone for this content like DLC all along it would have come across differently. But then, I don't think the community would have much liked the idea of being charged every 2 weeks for a tiny bit of new content. Charging people now for this content on a per chapter basis is basically the same thing but with the added rub of making people who had to put the game on hold feel like they are being punished for doing so. A lot of people bought this game because they felt that the B2P model would give them the flexibility to set the game aside at will without feeling like they were wasting money on a subscription that was ticking only to find out that they were going to be charged after the fact for having the temerity to do other things for a while. 

The point is that this charge leaves people feeling a bit swindled. It is immaterial if they were swindled in fact or not. Making your customers feel stupid or cheated is not the best way to keep them. 

Instead of charging per episode I think it would have come off much better if Anet had done a one time charge off say $20 to unlock access to the whole story journal. Then they would have been selling a major feature rather than the content itself which would have worked better with the whole B2P concept. Never mind that it is a feature that allows them access to that content. The perception would have been much more positive. They kind of blew that opportunity with this who have already returned but they could still pull it off with those yet to return.

Not a bad idea, and perhaps they should add something to the cash shop like that 'discount to buy the entire season in 1 go'.

As for the swindled part, here's the ironic thing.

Anet announced they were doing this in advance. They were quite clear that this was going to be happening, and no one who played / followed the game was bothered by this change. The change literally only hurts those that stopped following the game entirely and are now returning expected to be handed everything.

It is a purely psychological issue, and a silly one at that. People are responding to the feeling of being cheated, regardless of what the facts say.

Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by Leon1e

Sometimes I wonder if you guys have nothing else better in life to do than bashing various games on the forums and feeling superior by it. Yes, I'm looking at you @Nanfoodle and OP. 

Did you forget that you can exchange in-game gold to gems? 

Did you forget that you can have people unlocking the story for you? 

Should ANet give you money for playing their game? :D 

I guess people like you just want to sit on your arse and get spoonfed with liquid gold. You can unlock the whole season with gold for less than a week. 

Yes, if this is the person that you are, then Gw2 is not for you. Also, those chapters WERE offered for free. Your mistake you didn't take an advantage of it. 

Are you going to sue Walmart because the discounted Nutella is out? Judging by your reaction I'd say you guys would....

So the first thing I am to be forced to do as a returning play is grind for gold? Ya no. Im not bashing GW2, I have supported it with my cash since beta. I dont support pay walls. They cause bad feelings in most gamers and is a great way to lose players. There are so many smarter ways to get players wanting to give you their money. This video I will post below covers very well what pay walls do to gamers and Anet is making a HUGE mistake.

Id agree with you if this was required content. Or if the game didn't offer it for free if you logged in during when it was available.

Keep in mind that all of this content was originally supposed to be temporary. This is why you can't get ANY of season 1 atm. The content is gone, and if u missed it, too bad. What you're paying for is optional content you may have missed by not playing the game for a while.

And as others pointed out, it's still really easy to get. The 'grinding for gold' you talk about really doesn't take long. And you'd be doing much of what you'd normally be doing anyway.

Silverwastes, Dungeons, Fractals, just loggin into the game (daily rewards) all give you things of value that you can sell on the TP. It's so easy to acquire gold ingame atm that you can quite easily acquire 100G per day, just by doing the above. If you want to seriously grind, you can get even more than that.

- What you're not understanding is that this game doesn't really force you to do anything. You can play exactly how you want to play. If all you want is to check out the new story content, then log in when it comes out and it's free. There's a pretty generous ~2 week window for each episode, and all you have to do is log in for a second to get that content.

For the stuff you've missed there are plenty of videos online that will tell you the story of what happened. If you are determined that you must have it then it's easily obtainable IN GAME through minimal effort, or about 20-30$ worth of gems. Which is cheaper than you'd have spent for the same game with a subscription, by a significant margin.

Originally posted by Loke666

Sigh, I feel a new dumbing down of the games comming up... A chimp can already learn to play them but it seems that EA thinks their players are incredible stupid.

They also in their wisdom say: "Every game is an RPG now,".

I don't know what's scarier, the fact that EA is saying this, or the fact that they aren't necessarily wrong.

The difficulty for games keeps getting lower and lower, and yet I keep seeing players who struggle which each new low. Furthermore, almost every game has incorporated RPG elements in them today. Does this automatically make them RPGs? Of course not, but it's pretty clear that those lines have become very blurred in recent years.

I fear we will continue to see games get dumber, and sadly I think it's a self-perpetuating loop. As games continue to get dumber, so does the average gamer. And as a result, the gap widens between those with a brain that want meaningful / challenging games, and those that are button pressers.

Originally posted by Aeander
Originally posted by DMKano

Outside of bosses - players dying to other mobs in MMOs is beyond rare these days.

If monsters can't kill players in your example - they will never advance rank hence making the whole system pointless.

I think its a good idea - just that it would be lost for the vast majority of MMOs where players faceroll through hordes of enemies without ever dying.

To a degree, this is supposed to be rare - at least as it applies to regular, non-elite mobs. If a player gets killed by something (especially something on the low end of the power spectrum), it should be a momentous occasion that results in said player - or his friends - personally going out for revenge. 

This can also be applied to elite mobs, which are somewhat more likely to get kills. These already have names, so they only need levels to really give them some impact. 

You can also apply this to dungeon mobs and bosses, with the stipulation that, as instanced mobs, they lose all levels once the dungeon is reset. For a game that doesn't force exit on wipe (like Guild Wars 2), this can add some challenge in the form of repeated attempts on a boss resulting in increasingly higher difficulty. For a standard MMO's dungeon, this means that each player that dies also makes their killer stronger.

If that's the direction you wanna take the idea, there are some issues with it.

For one, what happens when people die in the middle of the fight (i.e. you usually don't have just 1 person fighting elite mobs / champions, it's frequently a group effort). Does the champ lvl after the battle is over? Or does he keep getting stronger with each kill?

Secondly, how do you determine association? I.E. Does the mob only get stronger for the dead player's friends? How will that work, if you have a group of people attacking it (some strangers, some getting revenge) will it be easier to kill for some, and harder for others?

- Also how do you handle griefing? What's to stop players from commiting suicide over and over again, raising the difficulty for others?

Furthermore, could the system be gamed (manipulated) to farm for better loot (you have people artificially raising the enemy level of  champs to farm them that way).

** I'm sure there are even more issues with such a system I haven't thought of off the top of my head. All of this things would need to be considered / figured out when implementing such a system.

Keep in mind that it's nearly always better to reward success, than failure. You don't want a system that overly punishes worse players, and simultaneous fails to reward skilled players (i.e. the ones that don't). You also don't want your system being a poor tool to farm loot via corpse runs. Which there is a lot of potential for when implemented into an MMO.

Originally posted by DMKano

Outside of bosses - players dying to other mobs in MMOs is beyond rare these days.

If monsters can't kill players in your example - they will never advance rank hence making the whole system pointless.

I think its a good idea - just that it would be lost for the vast majority of MMOs where players faceroll through hordes of enemies without ever dying.

This ^.

When it comes to PvE in MMOs these days, it's designed for the players to win. MMOs are generally a lot less trial and error than Shadows of Mordor, resulting in fewer deaths. Furthermore, the fights tend to be more compartmentalized, instead of the randomly generated method of SoM.

It's not to say that such a system couldn't work, but rather it would probably require a very different kind of MMO for it to work (in a way that actually serves a purpose). It would likely require PvE that behaves more like RvR (i.e. GW2's silverwastes), where you have everyone split up between objectives (bosses) and the successes or failures of one group affects the outcome of the rest. It's a very interesting idea with a lot of interesting hurtles to go along with it, but it could work, given a very different type of MMO.

Originally posted by Flyte27
Originally posted by aesperus

In D&D how commonplace or rare magic items are is completely up to the DM. I know some DMs in which magic items aren't really all that rare, and others who will make it so that you maybe get one the entire campaign.

As for EQ, there was actually quite a lot of magical items in that game. You can go look up an items list if you don't believe me. There may not have been a lot of flat stat benefits, but there were definitely a good amount of magical items.

Again, think of it in the reverse. If you were making a modern day game, would it make sense to have all this technology but no computers? No automatic weapons? No specialized ammo? Of course not. In a fantasy game, if it's commonplace for you to conjure flames out of thin air, would it make sense for it to be rare that some items can be set ablaze (fire weapons)? Definitely not. If it's commonplace for people to conjure water out of nothing, would it make sense for there to be problems growing plant-life? No.

It's all about consistency. Aka suspension of disbelief. If magic permeates your world, then it need to do so thoroughly. If classes get vanilla stat boosts & such, then it makes no sense for the same basic magic to be rare amongst items without a really damned good reason.

You can have both types of games, but again, consistency is important. If you want to design a game around item rarity (admittedly NOT the best approach), then you need to think about how that ties into the rest of the game, and visa versa.

Orignal EQ didn't seem to have to many magic items.  I remember being happy to get a magic combine weapon off a vendor at level 20.  Until that point I couldn't anything that required magic weapons to hit.  Your right that there were magic weapons in the game after a certain level, but they were usually fairly hard to get and I don't remember many that actually increased you attributes.  I don't believe that just because there is a lot of magic in a game that you have to have lots of magic weapons and armor with large attribute increases.  If you wanted to start giving out weapons with + 1 fire damage or wanted to give out armor that increased the damage absorption by a %1 or %2 increase that would be one thing IMO.  At least then you would have less of an increase in power from the weapons and armor.  I also always feel it's important to start as a bare bones so to speak.  Why do you have to start with plate armor just because your class can wear it?  Why can't you just start with cloth, leather, or whatever else is available that you can afford or make at the start of the game?

Feel free to look for yourself. Though a lot were added with expansions, there are still a decent amount from vanilla. Though there are way too many types of equipment to go through them all.

Whether or not your weapons give actual stat gains is kind of another matter. Again it all depends on the type of game you're making. If you have a game where stat gains aren't a large part of that game, then it's not as important to have them tied to gear. That trend was basically added as power creep started to get worse and worse with these games, as a result of them being designed around doing hard encounters to get more powerful loot.

Either way, it doesn't make sense to have a world in which magic is common, and yet magical things are not. Not without some kind of massive lore 'excuse' to justify it. (i.e. something in the world that prevents magic from being applied to all objects). You could certain make a game like that anyway, but then again we have games in which guns are easier to deal with than swords in open field combat.

If lore / suspension of disbelief is important enough to have this conversation, then you'd think consistency would be as well. You don't need to have magical weapons that are common or rare. All you need is a game world that actually makes sense, and if it comes to things that affect gameplay (the player experience), then there needs to be a damned good reason for it other than 'it seemed like a neat idea at the time'.

Originally posted by Flyte27
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

I think the title is wrongfully worded.

"Powerful items" should be rare in any game.

"Magic items" being rare depends of your game's setting. You can have no magic, low magic and high magic worlds. If in a "low magic" setting, then indeed, magic items should be very rare. Good example would be "Game of Thrones".

I see what you mean, but just because a setting has a lot of magic users doesn't mean magic weapons and armor would grow on trees.  In EQ magic users dominated, but there weren't many magic items.  The same is true of D&D.  The most you would get is like short sword + 1 or leather armor +1 and that was the good stuff!

In D&D how commonplace or rare magic items are is completely up to the DM. I know some DMs in which magic items aren't really all that rare, and others who will make it so that you maybe get one the entire campaign.

As for EQ, there was actually quite a lot of magical items in that game. You can go look up an items list if you don't believe me. There may not have been a lot of flat stat benefits, but there were definitely a good amount of magical items.

Again, think of it in the reverse. If you were making a modern day game, would it make sense to have all this technology but no computers? No automatic weapons? No specialized ammo? Of course not. In a fantasy game, if it's commonplace for you to conjure flames out of thin air, would it make sense for it to be rare that some items can be set ablaze (fire weapons)? Definitely not. If it's commonplace for people to conjure water out of nothing, would it make sense for there to be problems growing plant-life? No.

It's all about consistency. Aka suspension of disbelief. If magic permeates your world, then it need to do so thoroughly. If classes get vanilla stat boosts & such, then it makes no sense for the same basic magic to be rare amongst items without a really damned good reason.

You can have both types of games, but again, consistency is important. If you want to design a game around item rarity (admittedly NOT the best approach), then you need to think about how that ties into the rest of the game, and visa versa.

Honestly it all depends on how you want magic to affect your world.

If you want your game to be one where magic is an everyday occurance, where it's commonplace. Kind of like an ancient version of today's technology. It then makes sense for magic items to also be commonplace.

However, if you want a game in which magic is rare, where it's potentially very powerful; then it's probably better to have magical items also rare.

- The biggest problem with the later option, is that it also can create power imbalances in multiplayer games.

In single player games it works to the games advantage, giving players something to work towards. However in multiplayer games it creates a power gap that becomes mandatory to fill to remain competitive.

So again, it all comes down to the type of game you're wanting to make. Whatever the choice it needs to make sense for gameplay, and not just from a lore perspective.

Originally posted by Rusque

Passion, features, hype, they all mean nothing until we see it functioning as described in front of our eyes.

The MMO community has been sold quite a lot of beach front property in Arizona over the years. These guys need to deliver if they don't want to find themselves broke and unemployed again.

Two idioms come to mind:

"The devil is in the details"

"The road to ruin is paved with good intentions"

I don't doubt their passion is there, but that's not exactly an uncommon thing when it comes to games development. You just don't get into this industry without a passion for making games. I hope they can pull it off, I really do, but I'm going to wait until i see the actual features INGAME before I get too hyped.

Originally posted by Gongshow

Ive played Perfect World for entirely way too long.  However ive tried a few other MMO's but nothing seems to catch my fancy.

So im looking for some suggestions for something along the line of the old PWI. It doesn't have to be a new game or an old school one just looking for something different but along the same lines.

Thanks for the opinions.

Sigh, yet another person looking for 'something different but exactly the same'. Luckily, in this one particular case, there are some options. However PWI is still probably the best made out of them, with WoW actually being a better option (if you can afford the sub).

There's also Runes of Magic, Rift, Age of Wushu, Forsaken World.

If you're willing to branch out abit and try some stuff a bit different theres GW2, ESO, and TSW.

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