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All Posts by aesperus

All Posts by aesperus

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Originally posted by time007
haven't been keeping up the past 8 months in gaming, due to being jaded over countless games (don't get me started on the list heheh)  I won't say things like sandbox, themepark, big name, AAA etc as they become divisive and bring out the devils advocates, trolls etc.  not looking for an argument over definitions, but what is the next big thing coming out next?  Everquest Next? Camelot Unchained?  Last I checked those were over a year away so was wondering if there was anything decent bigname/AAA coming out soon?

It really depends on what you're looking for.

There's a handful of smaller-budget (aka 'indie) MMOs coming out, most notably Albion, Crowfall, and CU. In addition to a few more sandboxy indie MMOs. Everquest Next, sadly, looks to have been gutted. It's not cancelled, but all signs point to Daybreak (a new studio that is the acquisition of SOE) cutting as much production costs as possible without actually tanking the game. In otherwords, the fired a few hundred people; but left enough of the staff around that they could still release a shippable version of the game. Read: A version of EQN will probably be released, but it will be a shell of what the original vision entailed. They haven't actually said this, but we know about the layoffs, and the studio has publicly stated that EQN isn't cancelled. So, make of you will from those indicators.

Aside from that, there is the GW2 expansion due out sometime later this year. It's surprisingly enough looking to be a good expansion, but I'm going to assume if you were interested in that you probably wouldn't have made this thread.

If you're fine with more asian MMOs, Black Desert is also shaping up to be an impressive game. Somewhat similar to Archeage, but from what I've been hearing they aren't making the same mistakes, and are improving on most of what made that game appealing. Not to mention it's probably got the best graphics of any MMO to date. Currently though, there's not a ton we know about the game. it's in open beta in Korea, and some of us westerners have managed to get a KSSN to play; but nothing's translated. There will be an english port of the game, but that isn't due out for another couple years.

Originally posted by tuppe99
Originally posted by Quizar1973
Originally posted by Overlord_Neizir
ESO and GW2, More so ESO because it has the Justice System.

Both These games are On the Rail Questing....Its nearly impossible to lvl without

I know there is no current game where I don't have to quest. I was hoping that there is one that disguises the linearity of it somewhat. One example of an extreme case would be WoW where you spend exactly 2 levels per zone before you have to move on to the next. This is the type of game I want to avoid.

GW2 you can lvl to max without touching a quest (unless you count the brief tutorial as one). There are even multiple ways to max lvl without questing. PvP, WvW, crafting, exploration/gathering, consumables, dungeons. In fact the two fastest ways to lvl are 1) Crafting (though it can get pretty expensive), and 2) EotM (which is an alternate form of WvW).

Originally posted by Loke666

When the first Diablo came out it was just labeled "action", not sure where they got the RPG part from. Elder scrolls: Daggerfall where at about the same time seen as an action RPG.

The problem is that people slap the RPG thing on almost any kind of game today, before it had to do with interaction with npc/players or that it was based on a pen and paper RPG. Just killing stuff for loot does not a RPG make, or Doom would be a RPG as well.

Witcher is indeed a RPG though.

That's because few games are that black & white these days. In the olden days genres were much more clearly defined, because the games were a lot simpler. Mario was a platformer, duck hunt was a shooter, etc. There was only so much data people could use to create a game, and thus games had a fairly limited amount of content in them. What made up for this was the difficulty many of these games had, which led to replayability, and spending longer amounts of time trying to beat the same content.

These days games are a blend of a bunch of different 'labels'. The labels they are given are a rough guideline to what is the 'dominant' gameplay type. Are you mostly acting out a character through a narrative? RPG. Are you mostly shooting things? Shooter. Are you mostly racing vehicles? Racing game.

Problems is, games evolve. Look at adventure games, for example. Take secret of monkey island. You are playing out a character through a narrative, but doing so through fairly unique puzzle mechanics. As such it's no longer an RPG, but an 'adventure game'. Fast forward to today, and we have MOBAs. Part lobby game, part MMO, part RPG, some (smite) even part FPS.

That's the problem w/ labels. We will always have them, because it's part of how people think. We compartmentalize, we label, we categorize. However it's never perfect. Labels may give us a vague understanding of what we're looking at, but never the whole picture. And they never will.

- Think about this for a second. We have a whole category of games called 'party games'. What does that tell you about the actual gameplay? Not a damned thing. It just conveys that they will be oriented towards having fun with a group of friends.

Originally posted by Akerbeltz

Among other things that explain why mmoRPGs are in the shitter, i'd like to stand out one that it's not usually commented: Players are provided with too much information and data.

I know I'm in the minority here, but I think it would be much more interesting if the players just got the information the avatar is able to perceive, so players would be constantly guessing. It would put the RPG back in the frontline and the gaming experience in terms of player/player interaction and emerging gameplay would be far more enriching and satisfactory, making the game deep and viable on the long run, instead of the cheap short-termish thrills we have today. 

You're definitely correct (at least from an immersion perspective), but the problem happens before you even make a character.

Everyone wants to know all the details of a game before they buy it (which is understandable, because noone wants to pay for crap). However, what this often translates into is high expectations which, while based in reality (the information provided) gets multiplied by expectations that were never actually mentioned. I.E. 'This class will get a bunch of new skills', then some players think 'oh I'm betting there will be 100s of skills', and when there are only 90 they feel let down.

In-game, this often translates into things like DPS meters. One of the things I really hate in MMOs. There is waaay too much focus on min-maxing stats, and not on actual gameplay. There are a select few games that try and break this norm, but they are still very much the minority.

This problem isn't unique to marketting, it happens in many aspects of overhead and is basically a product of poor management in-general. I've also worked for many studios (both large and small) and have seen similar practices / mindsets from both marketting as well as producers.

Really it comes down to the culture at each individual studio / company. If a company has pride in it's own products and seeks to maintain that, they will sacrifice some of the potential profits to maintain that vision. Studios like Naughty Dog come to mind when I say this, for example. When a company's mostly profit oriented, it will start to min-max those profits, and then you get companies like EA, that will squeeze their own assets to churn out extra pennies. I still remember a while back when they wouldn't pay their employees overtime, because they didn't want to cover the costs. Thankfully that practice has changed.

With MMOs, though, it's much harder to put the burden on indie developers. We've had a few MMOs as a result (probably one of the most well known being Arenanet, who started as a very small team out of their apartment for GW1, and has grown into a pretty sizeable company for GW2). However, MMOs are still tons of work. More work than you can expect to do with any other type of game. Most likely there will have to be some sort of a give & take in regards to MMOs. What is unfortunately probably necessary is for WoW to die, and the hype around MMOs to die down a bit. However it's unclear if the genre as a whole would even survive such a transition. Either way, our expectations for what we expect from games (and MMOs especially) has inflated to an insane high. That bubble has burst, and now those expectations need to subside so we can start appreciating games again.

Originally posted by Loke666

GW2 should be better on rewarding you for doing stuff the first time though, besides achivements you really should get XP and extra rewards to encourage people discovering more of the game instead of running a few zones and dungeons over and over. On the plus side they at least killed the stupid Queensdale farming train, that really was a disaster.

GW2 can be improved in many ways but I still havn't seen a more fun game in many years. Now if they just could add servers with harder difficulty and higher loot droppings...

While I agree with you in regards to most of the loot, there are quite a few significant first time rewards that aren't just achievement based.

For one, you need to unlock the entire world (explore all of it) on at least one character to even think about crafting a legendary.

Also there are unique skins you can only get for finishing the personal story. They also started adding some pretty nice (ascended) rewards for completing living story content.

It would be nice to have first-time rewards for dungeons, though.

Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by aesperus
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by nuttob

Because players are so used to levels in games now they treat it as essential. GW2 could be done completely w/ out character levels, but most gamers would lose their sh@* or be completely lost / confused if they went that route. People are too hooked on traditional progression methods.

Don't get this wrong. I really like GW2. But this is one of the mechanics I'll don't like. The leveling mechanic itself is irrelevant. The problem I have is that the game removes the progress you make.  You can start in your  race's 1st starter zone. Then move on to another race's 1-15, then the 3rd race's 1-15 etc etc. Do that for all the races then move on to the 2nd zones and do them 1 at a time. You can theoretically hit level cap running DEs in starter zones without ever upgrading a single item, learning a single trait or changing anything on your character what so ever. How you showed up in your tutorial, is how you can ding 80. What's the point?

I just explained why the game has levels.

But levels are not the point. They are basically there as a means to transition players who are used to 'WoW' into a different type of gameplay. It's the same reason the game has hearts, which a lot of people criticize as being 'the same as quests', because they are supposed to be. People just couldn't handle a game being that drastically different when it was released. That said, the game could exist without levels if it wanted to, but it doesn't because there's no point.

For example, I have a friend who recently started playing GW2 again. He mentioned that he played it around when it first launched, but couldn't really get into it because he 'just didn't get it'. He had trouble finding the right class and couldn't figure out what he was supposed to be doing. So recently, I pointed him towards the ranger. It's the one class that feels the most like a traditional class from other games. You have a pet, and you can sit back & let it hold aggro while you press buttons on your longbow. Since then he's really enjoying the game, he's found enough of a comfort zone that he is no longer relying on hearts to level, and is branching out into other aspects of the game, even enjoying more non-traditional classes now that he understands the game a bit better.

The point is, you don't need to like levels. Heck, I would prefer it if the game had no character levels at all. But leveling isn't the point of this game. It never has been. They're not much different from how GW1 worked, except instead of 20 you now have 80. They are basically there as a transition period. The people more familiar with the game fly through those levels in a matter of days (or hours if you're doing it via crafting or exp scrolls). The newer players still benefit from it, because it prevents the game from feeling 100% foreign to them. The progression of this game comes much more from achievements, skills, acquiring unique skins, exploration and pvp. The levels are basically there to just help people transition into the core gameplay. They can largely be ignored.

Thanks for the coverage Bill, and great work!

I've been kinda on the fence about this expansion (I really hope it's good, but trying not to get my hopes up too much). I'm definitely looking forward to the new bosses, the new class, and the new pvp mode.

I just hope some of the specs (esp mesmer) turn out to be much more awesome than I'm dreading. Especially mesmer, why did they have to give them a shield!? ><.

Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by nuttob
Originally posted by Muke
Originally posted by DMKano
I think it will do great. Sadly not for me, I just can't play a game with level downscaling - 100% no go for me. But glad to see Anet putting out a quality expansion.

You actually like running around in zones where you are lvl 500 and the zone is designed for lvl 2? No challenge, noone visits zones which are too lowlevel for's like WOW where 99% of the zones are empty.

This is one of the main reasons I don't play WOW anymore!  I love downscaling, and I wish every MMO had it!

With some games it's optional. If you want to participate you can level sync.

If I've grinded levels and power out, level scaling diminishes that. If the game adjusts my level to be equal to that of the zone I am in, why do we have leveling?

Because players are so used to levels in games now they treat it as essential. GW2 could be done completely w/ out character levels, but most gamers would lose their sh@* or be completely lost / confused if they went that route. People are too hooked on traditional progression methods.

Originally posted by Mendel

OP, what if you found a game that perfectly ticked all your points.  It's everything you want from a game and more.  But the subscription fee as $1500 (US) a month.  If you want a Lamborghini of a game, are you willing to play Lamborghini prices?

(general discussion) Is there a market for a premium luxury game with a premium luxury price?

The problem is that MMOs (and multiplayer games in general) don't work like that.

You could have an absolute dream of a game (top graphics, top art, every game mechanic you could ever want, good story, great progression, great gameplay), but if only 5 people are playing it, the game won't last. Even if they are paying the 1500/month (which they won't, because no one wants to put money into a game they feel no one is playing).

It's long been understood that MMOs live and die by how crowded their worlds feel. Once they begin to feel too 'empty' it's usually a quick slope to obscurity.

Originally posted by Axehilt
Nothing sparks a productive conversation like saying your own personal preferences are "true", implying others' preferences are false.


One person paying a subscription doesn't support an MMO. Sorry to say. There are very good reason subscriptions aren't being used much anymore, not the least of which being that people are playing too many different games. Back when people generally stuck to a couple games for a while before switching, subs worked. Now that you have people playing the new hotness(s?) each month, you have people playing dozens of games in a given year. No one wants to pay anywhere near that many subs, and most people stick to one or 2 at most.

The landscape has changed, we are living in an environment where there are tons of games, and thus business models have had to change to adapt.

Originally posted by Antiquated

I think the owners of this site are finding "MMORPG" to be a problem, considering the industry is clearly moving elsewhere. Audience is escaping a site that's trying to cover a lot of titles that aren't "MMORPG"s by anyone's definition.

But arguing over that acronym always makes a good topic for pedants to bluster at each other over, and split ever-finer hairs in their equivocation wars, doesn't it?

Pretty much this ^

Though it always makes me laugh when people argue over terms like RPG, which already have a clear definition; just because there are games that like to blur the lines a bit.

RPG still means what it always has, and if anyone's confused a quick google search can give you the proper definition. While there are many games that encorperate RPG elements within them, it is typically the primary driving force of a game which classifies it. I.E. Halflife has RPG elements to it, but it's still primarily a shooter. So thus it's classified as one.

When a game blurs the lines enough to be undefinable by conventional means, it usually results in a new genre and gets a new definition. The most recent example of this being MOBA.

I'm actually really looking forward to the changes to defiance & stability. It adds more tactics to the mix, and sounds like it'll encourage more coordination. I can't say how annoying it is currently to try and manage those defiance stacks, only to have them reset by some ranger spamming his abilities.

The bar reminds me very much of the armor system in DA:Inquisition, except more geared towards CC and less straight defense.

Also, I wouldn't expect much changes from champs themselves. They really are (and have been for years) just overrated veterans. It's the legendary mobs that are getting all these interesting mechanics, and I'm fine w that. Champs, while some do get zerged, are more meant for smaller encounters. Pretty much all of them can be soloed by a skill enough player, and having just a small group is the optimal amount (and keeps things tame enough to be able to tell what's going on). More than that and they tend to melt about as fast as your average keep lord.

I'm glad they are revamping the old content. Many of those older encounters need it. Much of what has remained untouched since launch feels underwhelming, when it comes to boss fights. A lot of the mechanics are either exploited, or too simplistic to still be entertaining. I love the new teq, jormag is alright (though definitely the best out of the original dragon fights), triple trouple is extremely fun, as is vinewrath. Aetherblade is a nice new dungeon, and so far I really enjoy the new fractals (except for maybe the Mai boss fight). I welcome the new boss mechanics, and can only see good things coming from them.

Originally posted by 13lake
Originally posted by Loktofeit

real sports have independent institutions, observers, judges and executioners in place to force sportsmanship at all turns and punish bad conduct, and to force good behaviour, and minimize everything not related to the gameplay itself.

However that only applies to professional play, feeders, flamers, trolls, elitist, apologists, sociopaths, psychopaths, noobs, newbies and wannabe "pros" are all still there in everyday playing of all sports, everywhere near and around you on courts and fields, and FIFA, NBA, and etc, ... are not involved in all these sport games.

Nobody gets worked up and much goes and whines all around much if they go to a basketball court, start playing bad, and then get their ball stolen, possible beaten and thrown out by "regular pros". It's become just a part of life, and we chug it down to, bad people and good people doing bad things, just ignore them.

However the same is not true in e-sports, the whine is at an all time high and everyone is demanding social justice like we're in a socialistic marxist utopia, ...

The problem is that ranked play in mobas is a professional type of play, while having the construct of a everyday friendly match of football or basketball.

It's like if they allowed everyone to participate in the nba, no matter how short, weak, incompetent or mentally unstable. The exact same would happen as what is happening in esports in general now.

It's a whole new wide world with new rules and old constructs, and we are in the wild wild west phase atm before we figure out how to regulate all of this and to make people chug any bad experience in esports and mobas down to, good and bad people doing bad things, what u gonna do eh, not esports, moba, game or communities fault.

You'd be surprised.

For one, esports actually do have independant judges, and institutions that enforce good behavior. In fact most pro teams self-enforce 'professional' / sportsmanly behavior amongst there team, and there have been numerous cases of pro players being kicked from teams for being toxic. This has happened across multiple games, from Starcraft to MOBAs, and to a lesser extent CS:GO.

Conversely, I've known schools to severely handhold people when playing competitive sports like basketball. Implementing rules that essentially make it impossible for anyone to lose (i.e. scores not being tallied, rules not being enforced, etc. etc.). This doesn't always carry over to friends on a public field / court, but it is there. I don't agree with it, but the mentality still exists. I'm glad I did not grow up within such an environment, because the real world doesn't work that way.

I mentioned this in my last post, but ranked play is not professional. There is a difference. A lot of players think they're 'the sh@%' because they're good at ranked, but it's not uncommon to see good ranked players fail in a professional setting. There is a reason for that. Ranked is basically for players who want to play the game as it's intended, and want to improve / play at a high level. It's sort of the equivelant of joining a chess club. You share strats, game knowledge, and expand your own understanding of the game.

Professional play is esports, period. As I previously state there are a number of strategies and playstyle that work great in ranked, but backfire severely in professional play.

Originally posted by Orious
Originally posted by aesperus
Originally posted by Orious

That's definitely a way to do it.

But don't kid yourself, you're actively avoiding perfecting your playstyle. Every game's matchmaking are designed to try and give you the fairest games possible at any given time. What you're essentially doing is gaming that system, to make sure you're constantly playing below your active skill level. Aka smurfing.

This is something a lot of top-tier players do to play with lower tier friends. It's something I do when playing w/ some of my friends newer to the genre. It can be fun in short bursts, but it's definitely not fair to the people you are playing with. You usually just end up ruining games by stomping on those on the enemy team. It's certainly better than having your friends get destroyed by experienced players, but it also hinders their experience as well.

I've heard of smurfing, yes. I'd even go as far as saying the elitism I don't want to experience made that term up in the first place. Same with PUG. I actually like random groups.

Really I only have 2 LoL accounts, 1 smite account I haven't played since beta (fun game though), and 1 DOTA2. I am pretty good with the few heroes I have (except when I play again I have to relearn most strategies), but I haven't really played them enough to be considered a real "smurf". By the time I relearn the strategies and consistently do well on a personal level, I'm bored and stop playing again :). Just want to get in game, have a good time, experiment with lesser played characters (this is the big deal for me really). If I wanted to really ruin people's day, I'd try to pick the "best" heroes against playing new players, learn them inside and out. I also don't play ranked, which is really the esport part of the game. And the part that ends up turning me off in particular. I know my bro mutes everyone lol. He's usually near top performer, so it's not like he's bad just doesn't want to deal with the RAGE.

Lol indeed.

I also tend to mute a lot of people who rage. Thanks to that feature for existing. The 'fun curve' for MOBAs is a lot more extreme than other games in my experience. The highs are much more fun than most other games, but the lows are also a lot more frustrating. Seriously, some of the people I've had to deal with could win a darwin award.

On the flip side I've also met a lot of cool / chill people through MOBAs. Some pro, some trying to be, some just smart people who enjoy the strategy of these games. We usually just play w/e to have fun, even if it's not the best pick. But we also understand the game we're playing and expect some level of that if we're teamed up with other random people as well. It sucks when that doesn't happen, but it's a complicated issue. Part of the problem is game population, part of it is matchmaking, part of it is players getting carried into higher brackets than their skill level warrants.

- Also, while it's a common misconception, 'ranked' isn't the esports part of the game. It's often a gateway to meeting that side of the game, but there are a lot of differences. Many things that carry ranked games simply don't work in the esports scene, because people know how to punish them. But in a team of random people who may or may not play well together, it's much easier to get away with things like cheese, or exploiting the weakest link of the enemy team until you have such a big lead that it's too difficult for your team to lose. It's unfortunate that such things happen, but it's pretty common in all team-based competitive games.

Originally posted by Nilv

I still don't understand why we need all these telegraphs in combat? Why would you want to eliminate knowledge of knowing ranges and cones of skills? 

I'm still waiting for a modern MMO to adapt Dragon nests combat, but that probably won't ever happen. Because majority of players just can't handle the amount of skill that's required to play it. Can always hope huh!

Unfortunately the trend seems to be with making games easier and easier.

Every game type that requires any decent amount of thought on the user seems to gradually get simplified as time goes on, either directly or via newer games. Unfortunately while there's a lot of people who enjoy the strategy, depth, and cognitive challenges of such learning curves, there are many more who would rather do away with them entirely rather than have to learn them.

Originally posted by Orious

This is how I approach ESPORT games if all I want is to have some quick fun:

1) Go in to do enjoy the characters and gameplay ie. have fun... win or lose.

2) Do not play ranked, only play beginner PUGs.

3) When you level too high for beginner things and get to the point where everyone's an elitist, make a new account...

I don't care for these games enough to put in serious effort into them. I'm pretty confident I could if I wanted to, but the whole elitism raging is way less fun than perfecting my playstyle in these games. I play them for about a week, get bored, then go back to them some months later. They're fun for the quick play, short matches, brawls with casual players. If I were to play this game with my Bro, I would not have any fun at all. He's an esport king. I'm an immersion guy. I play games to be drawn into the world, not to win a trophy.

That's definitely a way to do it.

But don't kid yourself, you're actively avoiding perfecting your playstyle. Every game's matchmaking are designed to try and give you the fairest games possible at any given time. What you're essentially doing is gaming that system, to make sure you're constantly playing below your active skill level. Aka smurfing.

This is something a lot of top-tier players do to play with lower tier friends. It's something I do when playing w/ some of my friends newer to the genre. It can be fun in short bursts, but it's definitely not fair to the people you are playing with. You usually just end up ruining games by stomping on those on the enemy team. It's certainly better than having your friends get destroyed by experienced players, but it also hinders their experience as well.

Originally posted by sominator
Originally posted by tiglie
The inherent problem with MOBA dota style games is you are 100% reliant upon 4 other people for a positive outcome.

This.  The same could be said for MMO dungeons or PvP, but at least in those cases, I can fall back on other content if I don't have a good pug experience.

I feel like it should also be mentioned that (so far) every major MOBA has co-op vs. ai modes for players trying to learn the game. Some games do this better than others, with LoL / DotA 2 probably doing it the best. These modes can be boring for players who know what they're doing, but for newer players / very casual players it's fine.

While MOBAs are very different from MMOs, they are also a much more layered experience by comparison. Much of the enjoyment comes from understanding which layer works best for you, and using that as your starting point. (i.e. newer players should avoid ranked play until they feel confident in their knowledge of the game, while experienced players tend to stay away from co-op because it's too easy for them).

Kinda have to agree with the OP on this.

That said, there is a site revamp in the works, so we'll see what that looks like.

It's sad that this is basically what has become of the most devoted site to MMOs. At the same time, it's a bit unreasonable to expect that they limit themselves to just MMOs, given the state of the genre currently. The genre is changing, and hopefully this site will along with it (for the better I hope).

I do hope that the games list gets straightened up significantly though. It's basically just a bin of everything atm (old, new, dead, alive, MMO, non-MMO). it needs new UI, with categories for individual game times and some regular maintenance on what's still around and what isn't. It worked fine back in 2000, but things have changed a lot since then.

Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by Komandor

"If EvE was a real Sandbox you would be able to Fly from one Solar System to the next with out a Stargate."

Have to agree with this.

would the trip complete in your lifetime?

Which leads to the do you know you cant? 

Ironically enough, none of that has anything to do with a game being sandbox or not.

Sandbox = players create the content.

What he's describing is 'open world'. Not the same thing.

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