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All Posts by aesperus

All Posts by aesperus

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Originally posted by DMKano

Outside of bosses - players dying to other mobs in MMOs is beyond rare these days.

If monsters can't kill players in your example - they will never advance rank hence making the whole system pointless.

I think its a good idea - just that it would be lost for the vast majority of MMOs where players faceroll through hordes of enemies without ever dying.

This ^.

When it comes to PvE in MMOs these days, it's designed for the players to win. MMOs are generally a lot less trial and error than Shadows of Mordor, resulting in fewer deaths. Furthermore, the fights tend to be more compartmentalized, instead of the randomly generated method of SoM.

It's not to say that such a system couldn't work, but rather it would probably require a very different kind of MMO for it to work (in a way that actually serves a purpose). It would likely require PvE that behaves more like RvR (i.e. GW2's silverwastes), where you have everyone split up between objectives (bosses) and the successes or failures of one group affects the outcome of the rest. It's a very interesting idea with a lot of interesting hurtles to go along with it, but it could work, given a very different type of MMO.

Originally posted by Flyte27
Originally posted by aesperus

In D&D how commonplace or rare magic items are is completely up to the DM. I know some DMs in which magic items aren't really all that rare, and others who will make it so that you maybe get one the entire campaign.

As for EQ, there was actually quite a lot of magical items in that game. You can go look up an items list if you don't believe me. There may not have been a lot of flat stat benefits, but there were definitely a good amount of magical items.

Again, think of it in the reverse. If you were making a modern day game, would it make sense to have all this technology but no computers? No automatic weapons? No specialized ammo? Of course not. In a fantasy game, if it's commonplace for you to conjure flames out of thin air, would it make sense for it to be rare that some items can be set ablaze (fire weapons)? Definitely not. If it's commonplace for people to conjure water out of nothing, would it make sense for there to be problems growing plant-life? No.

It's all about consistency. Aka suspension of disbelief. If magic permeates your world, then it need to do so thoroughly. If classes get vanilla stat boosts & such, then it makes no sense for the same basic magic to be rare amongst items without a really damned good reason.

You can have both types of games, but again, consistency is important. If you want to design a game around item rarity (admittedly NOT the best approach), then you need to think about how that ties into the rest of the game, and visa versa.

Orignal EQ didn't seem to have to many magic items.  I remember being happy to get a magic combine weapon off a vendor at level 20.  Until that point I couldn't anything that required magic weapons to hit.  Your right that there were magic weapons in the game after a certain level, but they were usually fairly hard to get and I don't remember many that actually increased you attributes.  I don't believe that just because there is a lot of magic in a game that you have to have lots of magic weapons and armor with large attribute increases.  If you wanted to start giving out weapons with + 1 fire damage or wanted to give out armor that increased the damage absorption by a %1 or %2 increase that would be one thing IMO.  At least then you would have less of an increase in power from the weapons and armor.  I also always feel it's important to start as a bare bones so to speak.  Why do you have to start with plate armor just because your class can wear it?  Why can't you just start with cloth, leather, or whatever else is available that you can afford or make at the start of the game?

Feel free to look for yourself. Though a lot were added with expansions, there are still a decent amount from vanilla. Though there are way too many types of equipment to go through them all.

Whether or not your weapons give actual stat gains is kind of another matter. Again it all depends on the type of game you're making. If you have a game where stat gains aren't a large part of that game, then it's not as important to have them tied to gear. That trend was basically added as power creep started to get worse and worse with these games, as a result of them being designed around doing hard encounters to get more powerful loot.

Either way, it doesn't make sense to have a world in which magic is common, and yet magical things are not. Not without some kind of massive lore 'excuse' to justify it. (i.e. something in the world that prevents magic from being applied to all objects). You could certain make a game like that anyway, but then again we have games in which guns are easier to deal with than swords in open field combat.

If lore / suspension of disbelief is important enough to have this conversation, then you'd think consistency would be as well. You don't need to have magical weapons that are common or rare. All you need is a game world that actually makes sense, and if it comes to things that affect gameplay (the player experience), then there needs to be a damned good reason for it other than 'it seemed like a neat idea at the time'.

Originally posted by Flyte27
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

I think the title is wrongfully worded.

"Powerful items" should be rare in any game.

"Magic items" being rare depends of your game's setting. You can have no magic, low magic and high magic worlds. If in a "low magic" setting, then indeed, magic items should be very rare. Good example would be "Game of Thrones".

I see what you mean, but just because a setting has a lot of magic users doesn't mean magic weapons and armor would grow on trees.  In EQ magic users dominated, but there weren't many magic items.  The same is true of D&D.  The most you would get is like short sword + 1 or leather armor +1 and that was the good stuff!

In D&D how commonplace or rare magic items are is completely up to the DM. I know some DMs in which magic items aren't really all that rare, and others who will make it so that you maybe get one the entire campaign.

As for EQ, there was actually quite a lot of magical items in that game. You can go look up an items list if you don't believe me. There may not have been a lot of flat stat benefits, but there were definitely a good amount of magical items.

Again, think of it in the reverse. If you were making a modern day game, would it make sense to have all this technology but no computers? No automatic weapons? No specialized ammo? Of course not. In a fantasy game, if it's commonplace for you to conjure flames out of thin air, would it make sense for it to be rare that some items can be set ablaze (fire weapons)? Definitely not. If it's commonplace for people to conjure water out of nothing, would it make sense for there to be problems growing plant-life? No.

It's all about consistency. Aka suspension of disbelief. If magic permeates your world, then it need to do so thoroughly. If classes get vanilla stat boosts & such, then it makes no sense for the same basic magic to be rare amongst items without a really damned good reason.

You can have both types of games, but again, consistency is important. If you want to design a game around item rarity (admittedly NOT the best approach), then you need to think about how that ties into the rest of the game, and visa versa.

Honestly it all depends on how you want magic to affect your world.

If you want your game to be one where magic is an everyday occurance, where it's commonplace. Kind of like an ancient version of today's technology. It then makes sense for magic items to also be commonplace.

However, if you want a game in which magic is rare, where it's potentially very powerful; then it's probably better to have magical items also rare.

- The biggest problem with the later option, is that it also can create power imbalances in multiplayer games.

In single player games it works to the games advantage, giving players something to work towards. However in multiplayer games it creates a power gap that becomes mandatory to fill to remain competitive.

So again, it all comes down to the type of game you're wanting to make. Whatever the choice it needs to make sense for gameplay, and not just from a lore perspective.

Originally posted by Rusque

Passion, features, hype, they all mean nothing until we see it functioning as described in front of our eyes.

The MMO community has been sold quite a lot of beach front property in Arizona over the years. These guys need to deliver if they don't want to find themselves broke and unemployed again.

Two idioms come to mind:

"The devil is in the details"

"The road to ruin is paved with good intentions"

I don't doubt their passion is there, but that's not exactly an uncommon thing when it comes to games development. You just don't get into this industry without a passion for making games. I hope they can pull it off, I really do, but I'm going to wait until i see the actual features INGAME before I get too hyped.

Originally posted by Gongshow

Ive played Perfect World for entirely way too long.  However ive tried a few other MMO's but nothing seems to catch my fancy.

So im looking for some suggestions for something along the line of the old PWI. It doesn't have to be a new game or an old school one just looking for something different but along the same lines.

Thanks for the opinions.

Sigh, yet another person looking for 'something different but exactly the same'. Luckily, in this one particular case, there are some options. However PWI is still probably the best made out of them, with WoW actually being a better option (if you can afford the sub).

There's also Runes of Magic, Rift, Age of Wushu, Forsaken World.

If you're willing to branch out abit and try some stuff a bit different theres GW2, ESO, and TSW.

And this is why you watch your stocks closely, and make sure that no matter the circumstances you hold the majority of shares (if you decide to go that route).

As much hate as NC Soft generally gets from players, I actually find them to be more reasonable than most publishers currently. It is disturbing indeed to think what would happen if Nexon actually manages to get the upper hand and starts turning NC Soft into a much greedier company.

I'm actually surprised Nexon has as much influence within NCSoft as it currently does. The conflict of interest seems fairly obvious from the outside. I have to wonder if they'd go as far as to jeopardize their own ROI to punish NCSoft's operating capital, being as they are in many ways competitors.

Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Blindchance

I will make it simple for you. If you were a new or returning player what kind of world design would you prefer: one which you feel like you have players around you at all times and you can explore the game world in whatever way you want ( minus the story, class missions I suppose ) or one in which you are alone for majority of your progression ?

The difference it would make would be incredibly trivial.  Seeing other people is a minor "oh that's sorta cool" plus, while the majority of fun I'm having would be decided by the quality of the solo experience.

This means it isn't a big enough of a negative to be considered a problem in most MMORPGs.  And certainly you wouldn't completely redesign such a core thing like leveling just to be able to account for it.

I imagine if you did the actual math, WOW's system actually results in players seeing more other players than your suggestion.  This is because everyone hits endgame eventually, which results in this accumulation of maybe 80% of the game's playerbase at endgame.  If 80% of players are in a handful of ~3 endgame zones, that's a lot of players seeing a lot of players.  If you spread those players evenly over all the zones in the game, you'd see much fewer players.

WOW's garrisons are an exception to this of course.  My preference in that case would be for garrisons to be manageable remotely after a certain point, which would free players up to hang around in capitals more while idling.  As it stands, I feel like I'm missing things if I idle anywhere but my lonely garrison, and that's definitely less fun than being in a busy capital.

I think you're logic may be a bit flawed.

First of all, I wouldn't call the difference trivial. There is a massive difference between a game where most of the zones feel like ghost towns, and one where basically every zone feels alive. Everyone responds to a feeling that 'there's stuff happening!', and no one wants to play a game that feels like it's dying.

That said, having 80-90% of your playerbase in the same 2-3 zones can be good for those vets that wanna all hang out in the same place every day. However, it limits exploration, and more importantly it puts newer players at a massive dissadvantage. WoW is an excellent example of this. If you were to go back and make a brand new character (take it all the way back to stormwind, or orgrimmar, or w/e), go back and lvl in the barrens. And feel how barren that place is now. It loses a lot of the fun factor. It's fun to do a bunch of quests with others. It's not to be doing chores (quests) alone, and with noone around to talk to. You're assuming that 'everyone hits max level eventually', but ignoring the fact that newer players have to actually get there first (just to experience the same game as most of the other players are doing), and probably won't know the fastest way to do it. Meaning they are far more likely to give up and say 'this is not very fun'.

This is where games like GW2 show contrast in this genre. There's a lot more incentive for players to go back to lower-lvl zones, to actually help out newer players than there are in games like WoW. So instead of newer players feeling abandoned, they feel nurtured by the community. It becomes less of a case of 'get on my lvl nub', and more of a case of 'oh, I've done what  you're doing before, here let me help you!'. And it happens a lot. This is both good for those at endgame AND newer players, because it supports new people in the game, which makes it much more likely they are actually going to make it through those levels to be there for your dungeon run.

Keep inmind, WoW has a crapton of players, but it is the except to the rule. It's managed to hold onto it's playerbase for some time, and isn't really attracting many new faces. But it's doing a good job of holding on to the old ones. For other games this is much less viable, and they need to attract newer players to survive.

Originally posted by Ender4

While I think he stated it poorly I get what he means. My son had a lot easier time picking up LoL than he did the MMORPGs I've had him try. It is much more intuitive gameplay. However the step to becoming really good at LoL certainly takes a ton of work and skill. Doesn't mean he didn't run into a tower and just die his first time playing, but it played a lot like other games he's played on the console so he got used to it pretty fast.

Well, you should probably let the OP know, because I'm not sure even he knows what he's trying to say at this point. He seems more interested in trying to convince himself that his original point is accurate than actually discussing the topic at hand.

What you're describing is something else though. You've basically illustrated 'accessiblity'. To those of us that grew up around MMOs, this is less of an issue. However, to the younger generation more bite sized games (MOBAs, CCGs, Shooters, etc.) all have very basic base mechanics. You don't need to digest an extensive body of knowledge to play the game at a base level. Furthermore, unlike MMOs, most of these other games tend to be very consistent in their rule sets. Skills of one type, will always function like skills of that type, they may have counters, but you never really find situations in which a character just completely disregards the rules of the game.

Basically, MOBAs = low barrier to entry, high skill cap. Easy to learn, difficult to master.

Most MMOs = high barrier to entry, low skill cap. Hard to learn, easy to master.

This has nothing to do w/ PvP though, and everything to do with accessiblity. PvPers prefer PvP games, they don't tend to discriminate to just one game. Most PvPers play multiple games, they may each have their own PvP game of choice, but all they are really looking for are competitive games in which they can match skill against other players. This can be an MMO, on a baseball field, a card game, an FPS, it doesn't matter.

I'll say this again here, since this is not the first thread on this topic.

The new player experience (for those of us who already understand the game) does indeed suck for the first 15-20 levels. This system is basically not for us. It's for the players that are trying the game out for the first time, or never bothered to learn how to play it to begin with.

Getting to lvl 20, though, is easy as hell. If you find it taking a while you aren't really exploring your options, but rather letting the tutorials dictate your pacing. (Which again, is what it's supposed to do for inexperienced players).

For the rest of us, you still have some degree of freedom with how to lvl. There are a couple preliminary gates to work out, but they're all gone by lvl 20. Furthermore the game provides easily obtained scrolls of experience which instantly lvl your new characters to lvl 20 (effectively bypassing the experience altogether).

While I wish systems like this weren't necessary, my experience with other plays says otherwise. Many never learned how to dodge properly, how to manage their skills, etc. etc. This kind of forces their hands on this, but it's a start. And again, for the rest of us, this content is easily skippable.

- To put it into perspective I started playing this game again a few months ago after a long break. Since then I've basically acquired some 20+ scrolls of 'insta lvl 20", in addition to other scrolls which grant you flat lvls or chunks of exp. I don't play the game every day, or even all that much overall. But the stuff is just handed to you. From dailies / monthly rewards. From bonus chests / achievements. They're not that hard to get. Heck if I could donate some of these away to you guys I would. Sadly they're account bound and I have no idea what i'm going to do with all of them.

Originally posted by loulaki
Originally posted by aesperus

You're thinking about it too much in black & white terms.

What they mean is that instead of essentially a flat map with a sky dome, they are actually going to be using that 3rd dimension a lot more. Most games really don't when it comes to general map usage. Sure there are hills and such, but essentially everything is spread horizontally. In HoT they will be stacking layered content.

A pretext to this would be the jumping puzzle you see in Silverwastes. It's just a jumping puzzle, but it takes you both underneath the entire zone, but also up above the entire zone at the same time. Most people focus solely on what exists on ground level, but the map actually has fairly large areas (both below and above ground) that are basically unused aside from the jumping puzzle and a few small events. HoT sounds like they will be expanding on this a lot more.

For example, think of events happening both above you and below you, as you're questing around your zone. That's what they mean.

They zones aren't going to be any smaller than what they've already done. Horizontally they probably won't be any bigger either, but they will have a pretty substantial vertical component to them.

you are right both but ArenaNet has an issue with big maps and playerspace, they leave nothing for players. In GuildWar's 2 maps there is no free space if they could they could add content in every pixel. So players miss the space to "breath". This is good and bad but anyway it is  a casual themepark and what it does it does it right, in my opinion .

That is indeed one of the risks with their approach. If they don't design it properly it can easily start to feel too 'cluttered' and claustrophobic. It also can mean that there are a lot more camera problems, making it harder for players to actually see whats happening.

However, if they're designed as well as Silverwastes, I think they'll be okay. Ultimately we really just need to wait and see how the details look, and how the pieces start falling into place.

Originally posted by bcbully

"The core philosophy is that each dimensional map will be structured for depth of experience rather than expansion of the land mass."

Could someone explain this please? My first thought is small maps. Small maps that maybe you play more than once with different stuff?

edit- I was thinking too much "Rather than a more traditional strategy of rapidly expanding land mass with limited content to fill it, Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns will focus less on total land mass in the expansion and will instead focus on depth of content within that gameplay space. Each map will be rich in content, rich in 3-D play space, and very deep in replay value to ultimately provide more gameplay value to our players and not leave an empty wasteland of rarely played content behind."

Smaller maps with more stuff, because big maps are bad 

You're thinking about it too much in black & white terms.

What they mean is that instead of essentially a flat map with a sky dome, they are actually going to be using that 3rd dimension a lot more. Most games really don't when it comes to general map usage. Sure there are hills and such, but essentially everything is spread horizontally. In HoT they will be stacking layered content.

A pretext to this would be the jumping puzzle you see in Silverwastes. It's just a jumping puzzle, but it takes you both underneath the entire zone, but also up above the entire zone at the same time. Most people focus solely on what exists on ground level, but the map actually has fairly large areas (both below and above ground) that are basically unused aside from the jumping puzzle and a few small events. HoT sounds like they will be expanding on this a lot more.

For example, think of events happening both above you and below you, as you're questing around your zone. That's what they mean.

They zones aren't going to be any smaller than what they've already done. Horizontally they probably won't be any bigger either, but they will have a pretty substantial vertical component to them.

Originally posted by Yaevindusk

 

Quest or "outpost" hubs (I'll just call them adventure hubs from now on) is one feature I wanted along with Tanks and Healers (or at least the ability to viably specialize into such, even if there's no taunt).  In addition to Player Housing and sitting in chairs.

 

My three wants from this game as a whole.  In addition to access to Elona and Cantha.

I doubt they will ever add the ability to be 'pure tank' or 'pure healer'. Doing so would either be completely useless (wasted classes), or it would completely break the game (they would become 100% necessary). That said there are ways to make more tanky characters (i.e. bunker builds), and more support oriented characters (both with the ability to heal others, but more importantly SUPPORT others.) There are more ways to protect your allies than just healing them. Things like reflects, cleanses, combo fields, stealth, blinds, aegis, etc. are all very beneficial to a group.

I too hope they add Elona & Cantha. I know that everyone want's Cantha especially. I would love to see some kind of samurai, dervish, or paragon classes in the game.

Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Flyte27

Theoretically most RPGs still use random number rolls (dice rolls).  Even most FPS now use random number rolls to determine the range of damage along with incorporating other RPG elements into those games.  MMORPGs still use mostly random number rolls to determine things.  They just trick you into thinking you are actually able to dodge an attack manually in most cases.  In reality all you are doing is pushing a certain button at a certain time.  Something that has been done since MMORPGs were created.  MMORPGs have always been held back by band with in terms of combat, but I still enjoy turn based combat sometimes.  It's far more strategic.  Games like Divinity Original Sin and Shadowrun have done pretty well even in this market where most people want action, action, action. 

Nobody is saying random elements are automatically bad.  What I'm saying is every design element must justify itself.  Tradition or nostalgia are bad justifications.  Automatically translating game mechanics from completely different genres (tabletop RPGs) without thinking about how well they fit is just bad game design.  And that's why the better games strip out to-hit rolls but keep the random elements that are still relevant (random procs, damage variance, loot unpredictability, etc.)

For FPSes they usually vary cone of fire not damage with randomness (and sometimes crits.)  This is done mostly to feel a bit more aesthetically correct since the momentum of a bullet is unlikely to actually vary all that much, so it's damage potential is pretty constant (though its angle of incidence and the amount of material(s) it has to travel through to inflict damage could be modeled better in most games.)

Not sure what you mean by someone getting tricked that dodging was possible when it wasn't.  I've never had difficulty figuring that out on first try (although usually it's a little nuanced; obviously at some point you pull far enough away from that mob in WOW that you are no longer hit by melee attacks and if you duck behind the right line of sight cover you can dodge spells too.)

Nothing's wrong with turn-based combat.  It's only wrong to automatically try to truck over a bunch of old game mechanics that may or may not fit with the game being designed.  It's not wrong to bring over the ideas that do fit, but it sort of begs the question "Do we really feel these genres are so overwhelmingly innovative that we should start re-hashing ideas that've been done before?"

Gotta backup what Axe is saying ^ He is correct.

Design decisions shouldn't be arbitrary. It's incredibly common to have ideas that sound great on paper. Every good game designer discards more good ideas than you realize, because they have to understand that just because an idea sounds good, doesn't mean it's right for the game they are currently making.

There are some aspects of Tabletop that can carry over, but I believe that most (if not all) of them have already been tried. I just want certain studios to try going a bit further w/ some of those concepts.

Originally posted by Alders
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Hycoo
The idea of a mmo is for it to be a living breathing world. As long as mmos keep developing towards mobas with more and more lobbies/instant gratification they are gonna lose players. They should go the other way instead and use the strenghts of the genre. Pull players in by having rich worlds with strong rpg mechanisms and a sense of persistence. Only then can they compete with the mobas over players.

what? You have it in reverse.

D3 sold 15M+ boxes. LoL has 10s of millions of players everyday. I highly doubt a virtual world is needed for a MMO to be successful.

Case in point, world of tanks is highly successful (consistently top 10 i think) and it has no virtual world at all. You don't lose players by making MOBAs & instanced lobby game .. you gain players.

You lose the players that enjoy the genre for the RPG  and community elements.

Look, everyone and their mother understands that the MOBA's and the D3's of the world have more players. That's not the issue. The issue is them trying to turn RPG's into one of those other genres and alienating the players that came to this genre for what it originally was.

Arguable.

While MOBAs notoriously have some of the worst people playing them (trolls, bad mannered players, baby ragers, etc. etc.), on the whole they actually have pretty substantial and supportive communities. It's hard to tell if it's the popularity, the accessibility, or the exposure that has people experiencing these kinds of trash in their games, but there are many many chill / respectable / and friendly people in the communities for each of the top MOBAs (surprisingly, even DotA).

Surprisingly enough there are also a decent amount of players in each that are lore buff, and really get into that side of the game. I'm not sure how, or why, but they're there.

That said, I dont think MOBAs are, or will ever compete with traditional RPGs. Even with SMITE (whos combat is the most similar to an MMO), is a very different experience from a traditional RPG, or even an MMORPG. This genre of games is PvP focused, and will remain so.

I know it might seem like RPGs aren't popular enough, but while it's true that MOBAs are the current trend right now, it also remains to be seen how much room there is for games that aren't LoL or DotA2. And there are still numerous RPGs that continue to be successful (though to a lesser degree), so that genre really isn't going anywhere. And we're not being treated like that stepchild genre. Most MOBA players enjoy both MOBAs and RPGs / MMOs. I haven't seen any MOBA players that only play one game.

Originally posted by filmoret
Originally posted by aesperus

He's right, you're logic is flawed. You want a lil nugget of proof, here it is:

Twitch.tv/games

Now, what are currently the top 3 games on twitch right now?

League of Legends: 119k viewers

Minecraft: 95.5k viewers

CS:GO: 82k viewers

By your own logic, if twitch views are to correlate to actual people playing, then CS:GO should have a comparable number of average players to league, yes?

League's reported average playerbase = 27million. Taken from the data you provided.

Minecraft has 1million+ concurrent users.

CS:GO's player login numbers = 440k peak players. Not even close to that of what LoL is reporting.

And yet, on twitch CS:GO consistently has comparable numbers to LoL's viewers. Some 70% average the size of LoL's. And yet the actual player numbers are such that CS:GO doesn't even have 1/27th the numbers of League. Minecraft has roughly 1/27th the numbers League is reporting, and yet often fluctuates between the #2 most viewed game on twitch, to not even being on the front page of listed games.

This is what is meant when i said 'There is NO CORRELATION between viewer count and player count'. None.

I used twitch to help with some theories.  And I was right.  So according to my figures there are more people playing moba's then mmo's and I was right.  Actually there are more people playing LOL then all mmo's combined right now.

Except that's not what you made this thread about. You're changing the goal post to avoid admitting you made a mistake.

If you're topic is 'MOBAs are more popular than MMOs' then change your original post (and the thread topic) to reflect that. What is currently up there reads 'PvPers prefer MOBAs over MMOs'. That is a completely different topic entirely, and not one that any of the data (not yours, nor mine) supports.

There's no argument that League of Legends is one of the most popular games on the market right now. Nor that it happens to be an MMO. But MOBAs are a genre, and LoL does not reflect the genre trends any more accurately than WoW reflects MMO's. Furthermore PvP games are not split between just 'MMO' and 'MOBA', there are a whole variety of popular PvP games (hearthstone is also one, and is on the top list of popular games on twitch, as is WoW), and thus many many different types of 'PvPers'.

LoL is as much an outlier to MOBAs as WoW is to MMOs. And they're both so for very similar reasons. There is a very good reason why people who understand statistics do NOT use outliers as the basis for general hypothesis. However it seems as though you are not interested in actual data or facts, or even learning more about your own topic. You are doing what most politicians do, finding some numbers that look good / sound good, and using them to spearhead your own assumptions.

Originally posted by filmoret
Originally posted by fivoroth

@OP, your logic is based on nothing. People are more likely to watch competitive games like mobas and Starcraft. What's the point of watching someone play an MMO. MMOs are not a popular genre to watch.

 Also you have no idea how representative twitch is. People who watch competitive games are more likely to use that website. A truckload of lol players watch twitch, I would say above average percentage as for other games. 

You have no way of knowing that twitch adds to 5% of the population. You just pulled it out of nowhere. Twitch may be .1% of lol players but it might be 50% for all we know. 

Wow had 10m players playing it as of blizzards last update. Isn't that more than your 2m players for lol? 

 10 million players?  Hmm I'll help you understand a bit here.  Right now if they are lucky 1 million are actually logged into the game.  That's a lot more then average.  Subs do not mean they are always logged into the game.  The numbers I threw up were current players not overall players.  Well if you want then how about this for apple pie.  http://www.polygon.com/2014/1/27/5350944/league-of-legends-has-27-million-daily-active-players

Oh my I about shit myself when I saw this.

He's right, you're logic is flawed. You want a lil nugget of proof, here it is:

Twitch.tv/games

Now, what are currently the top 3 games on twitch right now?

League of Legends: 119k viewers

Minecraft: 95.5k viewers

CS:GO: 82k viewers

By your own logic, if twitch views are to correlate to actual people playing, then CS:GO should have a comparable number of average players to league, yes?

League's reported average playerbase = 27million. Taken from the data you provided.

Minecraft has 1million+ concurrent users.

CS:GO's player login numbers = 440k peak players. Not even close to that of what LoL is reporting.

And yet, on twitch CS:GO consistently has comparable numbers to LoL's viewers. Some 70% average the size of LoL's. And yet the actual player numbers are such that CS:GO doesn't even have 1/27th the numbers of League. Minecraft has roughly 1/27th the numbers League is reporting, and yet often fluctuates between the #2 most viewed game on twitch, to not even being on the front page of listed games.

This is what is meant when i said 'There is NO CORRELATION between viewer count and player count'. None.

Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by Leon1e
Originally posted by Nanfoodle

GW2 3 faction war is all zerging. DAoC balance spells/skills and classes so tactics were more important. Small groups could take out large groups of players if they worked together well. Myself I have been in a battle of 40 vs over 100 players and we won out using tactics. This is something GW2 does not have. ESO is getting there. Removing the cap as of late to AoE skills is a step in the right direction but it still not there. 

Just because you can't make it, doesn't mean it can't happen. Even with AoE caps in Gw2, 40 tightly grouped players can humiliate 100 randoms. And it has been done, just look up youtube. 

Played them both, DAoC is miles above GW2 as a tactical game. Maybe HoT will change that as they have said they want to remove the zerg but as it stands no 3 facting war has done it better. DAoC still the king when it comes to that.

The thing is, you can absolutely own a significantly larger zerg with a smaller / coordinated one. There's enough skill and tactics to the game to allow for this, and there are numerous videos that show this off at various levels (both 1vx, 5vx, and 20-30v 80-100man zerg). Assuming equal skill, the larger numbers will always win, and this was also true in DAoC.

The primary difference (tactically) is that DAoC had classes that could completely negate a group of players on their own through CC. GW2 has classes w/ AoE CC, but the duration is much more toned down, and everyone has a few ways to counter them.

Originally posted by HabitualFrogStomp
Originally posted by aesperus
Originally posted by HabitualFrogStomp

This is the problem with using Twitch as the basis for this discussion (which the OP did). It doesn't correlate.

As for the other aspects of open-world PvP vs. non-OW pvp games, that's an entirely separate discussion. One that's been pounded into the ground by countless other threads.

While people who enjoy those games may feel like they are beneficial, that they strengthen community, the realty paints a very different sort of picture. Far more people get turned away from these types of games because of experiences where newer players are trying to do their own thing / still learning the game, only to be completely annihilated by max lvl players. Or worse, games where you have bands of these players that actively go looking for easy kills. It happens much more often then it should.

And to the 50-100 honorable pvpers in these games that really are invested in the pvp experience, it might feel like to them that they have a really strong community. But when you try to equate that to the game as a whole, it becomes a bit like pointing to 5 homeless men around a trash fire and calling them an important 'tight knight' community in relation to a city.

Well that's the topic I like. I like open world PVP. I didn't bring it up, I just joined in.

The open world PVP games on the market right now maybe aren't doing so good. Because you're right, a lot of the traditional MMO crowd abhor them. But once MMO's become more available on consoles, the console market will create a demand for stronger PVP focus. And I fully expect that they'll want open world PVP games. Completely different market of players.

And outside a handful of MMO's, basically all of their communities can be viewed like how you're talking about, open world PVP or not.

I was more referring to the topic of 'how twitch is proof of what pvpers like' but I digress.

I'm not convinced consoles are going to do as much as you think they will. Not because there isn't a market on the console, but rather that isn't really the issue. The main problem w/ open world PvP is that very VERY few games integrate it properly. It's nearly always more of a hassle than a benefit. It nearly always translates into a mechanic to remove fun from other players, rather than one which creates fun for everyone.

We'll see how H1Z1 turns out, because that is the latest OWPvP game that's trying to heavily merge the PvP and PvE experiences together. I know some of my friends are enjoying it, and I might be too if I was more into zombies. But anyways, the real issue with OWPvP is such.

PvErs often want to be allowed to do their PvE thing. PvPers often want to get straight to the fighting, with few barriers preventing this (grinding for loot, levels, etc. all being barriers). With an MMO you are essentially catering to what both crowds dislike in many games. You're implementing a system that prevents PvErs from enjoying their side of the game, and a system which often has too many barriers for the PvPers to just jump in and have fun. Most PvPers don't want to spend hours grinding mats so they can actually maybe find a decent fight. Once a game solves both those issues, there will be much more of a market for those games, I'm sure.

Originally posted by Loke666
Originally posted by StoneRoses

You will always have zones or areas within the game just as empty/ghost town regardless if you have or do not have levels.

Even with GW2's Dynamic Level Adjustment you still have zones not heavily occupied and with group events unable to complete due to not having enough players or the difficulty.

Not anymore because of the mega servers but your point is still valid.

The thing is that when some zones gives better rewards then others most players will spend their time there, no matter the difficulty.

GW2 have another good example of that, until they took away the champs of Queensdale, it had a ton of not so greatly playing high level characters farming it since it gave too good loot compared to the difficulty.

If you trylu want players of all kinds to mix in the same zone you must also get risk Vs reward right and do like many of the older MMOs did: mix in some far more dangerous mobs even if the noob zones. Many of those games upped the difficulty of a zone at night with harder, higher level mobs and better loot while still being easy at day, other had random high power mobs sometimes walking the low level zones, and many of those mobs had really good loot.

The problem with that is of course that back then newer players couldn't beat every mob in a zone and accepted it.

And whenever you make an expansion you need to either up the drop table in the old zones or keep the exact same risk Vs reward ratio, or the old zones will be dead soon.

The other problem with that is essentially what happened with FFXI.

You'd have a massive influx of players show up to zone, just to camp that one mega awesome monster that spawns, then POOF they were gone. They didn't really do much for the other players that were doing the majority of the zone. It's not unlike how GW2's World Bosses function atm, where you have this massive train of people map hopping from boss-boss.

I think what really helped GW2 out (that other games could utilize) is their requirement that you actually physically go to the maps you're doing dungeons for, in addition to all the achievements that redirect players back towards lower-level zones. This has added a lot of incentive to go back and help out in those lower level zones, instead of just speeding through.

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