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All Posts by aesperus

All Posts by aesperus

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Originally posted by SirAgravaine

All of this information didn't amass into a cohesive thought until presently. The MMORPG demographic is an illusive shapeshifting pack of progressive, traditional, twitch, elitist, casual, role-playing, forum-dwelling, game-mongering animals. We try to define ourselves by the genre we play. However that is just too damned simplified.

If you can summarize that into a genre, good for you. However, I am going to go out on a limb and assume that there are no more than a half a dozen MMORPG.com forum-goers that would fit my demographic. I am more than okay with that. But it makes me realize that the social consciousness of the MMORPG devout is in turmoil and resistant to change. There's a tug-of-war between the old and the new, the same and the different, and without a clear voice...it is just 20+ million different voices standing alone. Some might say, my voice is my wallet, perhaps it is. But your wallet won't get games made, and choosing to not buy games that don't cater to your demographic, well....that's a rather lengthy road that I'm not sure my devout soul is willing to travel. 

sigh...

Alas, this isn't a thread meant to enlighten, sway, or otherwise evoke change, just the blustering of a hopeless/ful sap.

You've definitely got a good point. And here is the problem.

What you are describing is the biproduct of us defining our MMOs as a personal shopping list of features, instead of a general genre to try.

Think of it in this way, when you play other games (non-MMOs) how often do you think 'man it better have, A-B-C-D-E-F&G features, or I'm not playing it!? I'm willing to bet that if you do it at all, it's fairly rare. You may have a couple general expectations (it's an FPS, it should have a retical and some fun guns), but that's about it. For the most part when it comes to every genre BUT MMOs, we approach new games like.. well, new games. We try them as new experiences to play around with, and less like spiritual successors to every other game in the same genre.

For some reason, when it comes to MMO, we feel the need to compare each new MMO with every other MMO we've played in the past. We first judge it based on those games we used to enjoy (whether or not it lives up to those standards which we each have made individually), and if that fails we then compare them to the games that we did not like.

I think it's definitely a mentality problem, and it's preventing many of us from enjoying newer games. Not every MMO can be lightning in a bottle, but many of them are better games than we give them credit for.

Originally posted by DMKano

While it might be hard to predict it in great detail - we can predict at least a TYPE of game that dev studios are going to be working on based on several obvious criteria.

So take a look at any studio - look at their current games - look at currently popular games that they do NOT have - that's most likely what they're working on next.

Cheers!

A very interesting idea, but that concept really only applies to certain (primarily larger) studios.

Blizzard, for example, is notorious for finding niche genres and popularizing them. (And unfortunately also smothering them)

Since this is their 'SOP' it stands to reason that they will continue to look for other genres to expand their IP in (and given the past couple of releases this further cements this idea). EA is another one, but instead of expanding their games from within, they tend to acquire and consume from outside their own portfolio.  Essentially assymilating other studios under the EA brand, while their own portfolio tends to have a lot of repeats of sports games, CoDs, etc.

If we're talking only MMO studios, this gets much harder to predict, as MMOs themselves are in more of a transition period. Out of the 3 big companies that tend to experiment within the genre (SOE, Funcom, and Arenanet), only 2 are still around. It's been a while since I saw the financials of Funcom, but I know they weren't doing so hot for a while. Which makes it unclear whether or not they will be making another MMO (though it's been long enough that they should be working on a new project to stay afloat).

Anet looks to be sticking w/ GW2 for a while, with the recently announced xpansion, and (assuming it goes well) more to come.

NCSoft is probably trying to push out Lineage 3.

No idea what PWI is working on.

As for the rest, i see a lot of smaller (or newer) studios getting into the MMO scene.

EDIT: Can't believe I forgot to mention Capcom working on what seems to be a Dragon's Dogma MMO (or at least online multiplayer version of the original). Which should be amazing, if it's anything like the original.

Originally posted by DMKano
Over only for old vets waiting for those Gen 1 MMOS to return (eq1, SWG etc...) For the rest - the best is yet to come

This ^

The MMO landscape is changing (and has been for the past few years). I think we're done seeing '1 game fits all' type MMOs for a while. I don't think we're going to be seeing many more MMOs that try and have everything crammed into one game. In that sense I think we're going to be seeing more limited MMOs, games that are still 'MMO' but focus more on one style of gameplay (i.e. Planetside for example). The shift's already been happening.

In one sense we're going to be getting more limited games, but on the other they are also getting more diverse.

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

I've been hearing a lot of references to this lately So I did a little research on the event. I was in high school back then, and while I had the original Atari 2600, I was not really into Video Gaming at that time. That's when my gaming hobbies revolved around Table Top RPGs, so while I remember things like Atari struggling and the 2600 falling out of favor, I was not really paying a lot of attention to the industry.

Anyway,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_video_game_crash_of_1983

This is one of the links I was reading. One of the things that struck me as more than a little ironic is the reference to Atari and Activision. Activision was founded by developers who left Atari because of how they felt mistreated. That iteration of Atari which was largely blamed for that crash is out of business and Activision is now one of the companies people are looking at as a major contributor in the current state of things.

Makes me wonder. What would have happened if Atari had put just a little more emphasis on its employees at the time?

The circumstances are certainly similar between today and back then.

I think the main difference is that most of the shovel ware is on mobile devices currently. There are definitely a decent amount of bad PC / Console games, but nowhere near the dollar bin piles that were seen back in the '80s. It was before my time, but I've actually done quite a lot of research on this topic.

There are certainly some indications that a similar thing might be happening in the game industry of today. However, games have diversified enough that if such a thing were to happen, I'm not sure if it would have the same domino effect that it did back then. What it would do is flood the market w/ a bunch of experienced unemployed workers. Which could be bad for a lot of devs.

Surprisingly not a bad list.

I'd definitely say that having a clear vision for your guild, recruiting the right people, and being flexible are very much important. Imho being a good leader is mostly a question of mindset. Being aware of the big picture, and steering the ship towards that ideal as much as is practical.

Originally posted by monochrome19

I know a lot of gamers would appreciate a game where you couldnt reach max level in a week or a month but unfortunately my generation's attention span is short to say the least. Adding to this, many of us are stuck in the mindset that a game doesnt "begin" or "open up" until you reach max level. Assuming a good MMORPG came along with an insanely long level cap I would have no problem with it. But, there would be a few problems with a game like this:

1. The amount of content needed to keep players preoccupied for a year or so would be HUGE. Especially nowadays when everyone likes to moan and groan about graphics and artstyle, games arent 2D anymore, you would need a very large team of artist to accomplish this and make every dungeon, mob, etc, feel unique.

2. The fun factor. If the Journey is the true destination then the journey has to be fun 24/7. If at any time players feel they arent making sufficient progress and are instead grinding their skulls out the developer has failed. Players will leave because they arent having a good time.

3. Player attention span and Mindset. My generation of gamers will not sit well without the endorphins produced from instant gratification and leveling at a quick pace. That is why having fun would be EXTREMELY crucial for this type of grind, the players have to have so much fun that the grind is irrelevant in their mind. But the problem with that is: many of us live for making it to endgame and experiencing the "real" game. You would have to break a mindset thats deeply entrenched in today's gamers for something like this to work.

How would you combat something like this? Because to me it seems almost outlandish. At most, I think players will stick around for 6 months in any new game to hit max level, and thats stretching it. Which is more important, the journey or the destination and how would you go about preparing players for either?

A very interesting topic, but your approach is a bit problematic.

1) Leveling is part of the problem. Levels create frequent content gates, and are the direct cause of the whole idea of 'endgame'. Without them there is a lot more freedom to choose what content you want to participate in, as you don't have to first surpass a series of hurdles to be able to access them. Increasing the level cap serves to only make the problem worse, it is not the solution.

2) Content. When dev's say they have enough content to fill X novels, or Y feature films, they usually aren't lying. The amount of content in RPGs (but MMOs specifically) is nothing short of staggering. it's one of the reasons they are so damn expensive to make. Games are already about as bloated as they can get with developer-made content. The problem is that most gamers simply ignore 90% of it. When you look at games like GW2 or ESO, there are quite a few quests most gamers never pay attention to. Even some of the more well designed ones frequently get ignored. Simply put, the attention span isn't there, and there are now too many 'filler' quests to justify taking the risk that one might be good (for most people).

3) Fun factor. Nothing can be 'fun' 24/7. This is where pacing comes into play. You need cool-off periods, periods of downtime. There's a reason why some of the most enjoyable games also have some of the most frustrating experiences. You cannot have those highs (fun) without the lows.

- I can agree with you on the player mindset, though. This is often a huge contributing factor, and one no gamer wants to take responsibility for. Instead we just keep spending along pointing all figures at someone else. This is why I often refer to a lot of gamers as 'consumers'. We've become a market of players who are primarily interested in consuming content, and not on playing good games. A gamer, in my mind, is someone who enjoys good games / interesting game mechanics. They are those people who will often go back and play older games. Instead, many of us seem to be primarily concerned (especially when it comes to MMOs), with how much content we can blow through / ignore. It's not sustainable, and is a huge reason why many developers are experimenting with more user-generated content. There is only so much content a studio can make in a year.

Originally posted by ThumbtackJ

I know WAR had it's problems, but still, I've yet to find anything that captures that certain... charm(?)... that WAR had. I don't know what it was exactly, but PvP in WAR was amazing to me. Maybe it was the classes (Black Orc and Gobby Shaman were my favorites), maybe it was the intense rivalry between Order and Destruction, maybe it was just good scenarios and intense fun in the RvR lakes. I don't know.

I've tried going back to WoW, SWTOR, and most recently Rift (which is usually my go-to game), but the PvP there just isn't the same. I'd go back to DAoC but the game just hasn't aged well it looks like and I haven't even kept up with all the changes since I stopped playing in 2004 (or whenever trials came out).

I suppose I could try out GW2 again, but last I played (which admittedly was a long time ago) I didn't make it far. There was just something 'off' about it. I couldn't quite put my finger on it, but yeah. Maybe if I just stick to WvWvW it'd be better. I also own ESO, so perhaps when that goes B2P I'll check out Cyrodil and see if that's any good. Other than those two, the only thing I can think of is Planetside 2, which isn't really what I'm looking for, but hey, it's an option I s'pose.

Anyways, if anyone has any ideas for something that's already out or something on the horizon, I'd love to hear it!

-TJ

There's essentially 3.

DAoC (or just wait for DAoC: Unchained)

ESO

GW2

If you didn't like GW2, then I suppose ESO would be the next best option. The RvR mechanics for ESO are definitely better, but the combat is a lot more spammy. Furthermore it doesn't have instanced pvp (like the scenarios) and lvling via PvP is much much slower than other methods. It does have rank points similar to WAR's RvR ranks, though. But then again, so does GW2.

Personally I think GW2 is the closest to what WAR had (that or DAoC). But if you didn't like the feel of it in the past, you probably won't like the feel of it now.

I do miss some of the immersion of those older games, but nostalgia does play a large part of it (even for those that don't believe so). I periodically go back and play older games I liked, and they're almost never exactly how you remember them. You tend to remember the good, and forget a lot of the bad.

EQ1 is no exception to this. While it did have some elements I'd love to see more of in newer games, I'm also aware enough to understand that such games wouldn't sell well enough in the current market. You could literaly take the exact build of current EQ (or even vanilla for that matter), and update all the models / textures as much as the game would allow without being reworked, and it's arguable whether or not you would actually recoup the cost of production. And it certainly wouldn't do much to help fund future projects.

Keep in mind, EQ was designed during a time of discovery. MMOs were still a new thing, and we were still trying to figure out what was possible with the technology. The internet was still in its youth, and the amount of spoiler info available wasn't nearly as instant as it is today. Now we know what's possible, and studios are trying to do what they can with current tech. Just like a magic show, it's a lot less fun once you glimpse behind the curtain. That's the world we live in now, whereas in the '90s MMOs were like a prolonged magic show. We had no idea what kind of tricks were possible.

It's unfortunate the things that were lost, but we've also gained a lot of good in return. Times change, and while it's fun to dwell a little, it's pointless to spend much time on it.

Originally posted by AlBQuirky

A lot of times, MMO discussions revolve around players' wants in a game for entertainment and what may be available or what has been tried. Many times, this leads to "Want vs Forced" "debates."

Many players want to group with others, but also have option to not do so.
Many players want good crafting systems, but not be forced into it for "the best items."
Many players want PvP, but want the option for when and/or where.

When MMOs are good, they help the players want to participate in the varying activities it offers. When MMOs are bad, they force the players into activities they may enjoy, but take away the choice.

Want to get rid of "grind?" Make the activities enjoyable and fun. Rarely do people say "grind" when describing something they enjoy doing. Others may toss "grind" around, but rarely if it pertains to something they enjoy :)

Mob grinding can be interesting with some variety, besides baby wolf, adolescent wolf, adult wolf, and alpha wolf. Or gray wolf, brown wolf, black wolf, and white wolf. Killing is killing, but put some "setting" behind the activity, it may become more then just killing things for XP. Even killing for crafting materials puts some purpose behind killing things besides "I must level up!"

Instead of crafting 100 fidgets, to get the gidget recipe, then crafting 1000 gidgets to get the hidget recipe, and so on, make fidgets fit with gidgets and then with hidgets. Do not make the "next step" automatically learned in order to break up the crafting process.

There are lots of ways to activities fun and interesting, helping players want to participate in them without forcing the players into them.

Actually the topic should be 'optional vs. meaningful'. All gamers want content that they 'want' to experience. Furthermore, all gamers don't want to feel like they're being forced into doing something they may not want to. That much is obvious.

The problem comes in from the fact that gamers also want content that feels meaningful. And this means incentives. It gets into dilemmas of choice, and the idea that as soon as there's incentive to do something, it has value, and thus starts to feel more like a necessity. It's a very fine line between something that is important enough to feel meaningful, and something that is so important you feel like you 'need' to do it. Even in games where this may not actually be true (GW2 for example), you still get plenty of players who feel like they are 'forced' to do this or that, simply because 'they want it'.

That said, 'grind' is a term that gets used to describe anything repetitive. It's a stigma, usually implying that this repetitive task isn't fun. However, we can see even in games like MOBAs, grinding 'ranks' (obtaining a status title earned from playing the game at a certain skill level), is still considered grinding. Even though these people playing enjoy the game.

Indeed the only games that don't have any sort of conceivable grind, are the ones that are 1-off playthroughs. These are games that are only focused on telling a story. The purpose of the game is to experience that story, finish it, and then never touch that game again. This, or games that are meant to be played in small chunks, spaced out of long periods of time. Games like the Civilization series, which don't really have a ranking system, but are fun every now and then for some casual Turn-based strategy gameplay.

 

Originally posted by doodphace
Originally posted by Malabooga
Originally posted by doodphace
Originally posted by Dakeru
 

You are assuming everyone bought from the store, which is in and of itself a big assumption......ergo, your entire point rests on one gigantic assumption....If I paid 60$ and played for 30 min...and you played for 2000 hours and paid your 60$...we both affected the game's bottom line in the exact same way...I am absolutely amaized that something like this needs to be explained...shoehorning in "ya, but we helped build the community", is completely disengenious.

Everyone who purchased at or near launch paid the same box price....just because you "played more", doesn't mean someone like myself should pay more money to experience the same content when we put the same amount of money into the game and A.Net's pockets....

In any event, I was responding to someone who called people who didn't want to pay for the content in question "freeloaders", which is insane considering said people already put in their 60$.

Not to mention that someone who buys the game and all of the extra content today, are getting it cheaper than someone like myself who bought at launch. I would have paid the 60$ box price, plus the price of the additional content, where as someone buying it today will spend 40$ and the cost of the content.....I am basically being penalized for being an early adopter....kind of a shitty thing for a "buy to play" game, no?

Well, this is your chance to prove that you care about the game. But all that you are proving is that ANet is right to not care much about people like these.

Buy it, dont buy it, play it, dont play it....noone cares really

early adopter...rofl

...you are advocating A Net not caring about people who put as much money into the game as you, simply because they don't play as often.......and ppl call EA greedy/sinister, geez....

Comparing this to EA greed is laughable. Absolutely ridiculous.

1) The 60$ you paid when the game launched gave you access to the same stuff as everyone else. Period. The stuff you felt was worth 60$ at release is all still in the game, for no additional fees, and they've even added numerous free bits of content. New maps, new SPvP zones, a new EotM map, new world bosses, new events, new gear, new skills, etc.

2) The LS you (and others in your camp) are complaining about is extra content. If you will remember back to when you spent that 60$ on the game, the Living Story was a temporary addition to the game. You missed it, it's gone forever. Which is why you cannot buy any parts of the Season 1 living story atm. It's completely gone if you've missed it.

At the beginning of season 2, due to player feedback, they added the option to go back and unlock episodes you may have missed using gems. This is also when they added the system to unlock that content on your account if you've started the episode during the time it was available for free. This began a little over half a year ago. Not exactly new content.

You could've logged in at any point during the past 7 months, and received part if not all of that content. You chose not to.

3) You (and others in your camp) didn't think the living story was worthwhile enough during the past year or two to login for 30seconds a month to check whether or not you were interested. But now that it's behind a paywall for you, you all of a sudden think it's a big deal. Why? This could've all been easily free for all of you. It's not a system that rewards players that play more. It's a system that rewards players who login period. To get the entire content for free would've cost you about ~5minutes of playtime in the past year. 5 minutes. That's it. During the entire year. Roughly as much time as it takes to check your email in one day.

What exactly is so unfair? Besides you being responsible for your own actions?

Originally posted by Foomerang

I know it's a small thing and probably not many people care. But it has always bothered me. Selling cosmetic items in a cash shop is generally seen as an acceptable practice. And yet that has allowed for a subtle but steady shift away from the immersive virtual worlds I miss so dearly these days.

Cosmetic items: clothing, mounts, pets, titles, auras etc. These used to be part of the game itself. Part of the lore. Perhaps a side quest somewhere. Or tied into a crafting system.

But they are not anymore. They are in a store. And the devs get a pat on the back because at least they aren't selling combat buffs.

I guess I just don't belong in this new style of mmorpg. Even my mmo of choice does it. Best I can do is try to ignore it. My preferred play style is becoming a niche of a niche of a niche lol. Oh well. Nothing lasts forever

If things were still in the subscription era, I would be right there with you. Unfortunately subscriptions don't really work currently. There are a select few games that manage to work using such a model, but the majority can maybe get away with one for a few months before having to make a shift.

As such, I think cosmetics are perhaps THE fairest way to charge customers. As for whether or not this is 'part of the game' really depends on the company in charge. For example, GW2's cosmetics are mostly additive. The world is probably not quite as immersive (fashion-wise) as you'd prefer, but the base game involves most of the available skins that are free of charge (and indeed many have been added for free).

I can see where you're coming from (immersion-wise), but here's the thing to consider. There is nothing that dictates that cosmetics sold in the cash-shop have to be immersion-breaking. They can all be done canon with the lore if the developer chooses. However, that is not what most players want.

There are a decent amount of players that are lore buffs, true. However most players just want to have fun. They are willing to put up (or even embrace) a silly hat sold in the store if it makes them laugh. Even if that breaks the immersion a bit.

Honestly, it doesn't really matter.

Whether they actually stole the concept or not is likely something we'll never know. It does happen, but it's far more common for developers to have similar ideas that happen to get rolled out at comparable times. Ideas aren't born in a vacuum, developers talk. There are entire forums where developers share ideas, not to mention events like the GDC.

While it's generally frowned on to steal another's IP, taking ideas from another's mechanics or business model is actually often encouraged. How do you think genres get made.

Loot shouldn't matter, but it does.

We've been conditioned to expect it, and we feel happy every time we get slightly better loot. It's the skinner-box model at work, keeping gamers hooked by the ever decreasing chance of better rewards.

It's entirely possible to make a good game with no loot, or very little in the way of loot. However, that's not what currently sells. Which is why nearly every game has some kind of reward progression system tacked onto it.

Originally posted by fivoroth

Originally posted by aesperus

i would say LoL / DotA is more like chess, and HotS is more like checkers.

Both tabletop games where you move circular pieces around tiles. However one is a lot more simplistic / casual than the other.

I think it's more like this: dota - chess; lol - checkers; hots - backgammon. Chess is obviously the most complex and difficult to pick up, backgammon being the most simplistic. It's the evolution of the genre. Lol sucked half of the depth of dota and got rid of it, now hots takes goes even further to get rid of half of the depth of lol.

Indeed, though I have to wonder how many people even know what backgammon is these days, lol.

It's one of the more depressing facts of this genre. The base model is actually quite ingenious as to how much depth & strategy it provides. It's also one of the big dividers when it comes to the communities for these games. You have those (usually at the upper levels) who play the games as intended, acknowledging and utilizing objects & strategy; and then you have the majority who basically play the games like Call of Duty with magic spells & a fantasy setting.

Which is why I'm sure HotS will be popular (that and because it carries the Blizzard IP). There is a market for mindless fantasy combat. Though most MOBA players have too much invested in LoL to give it up completely. I'm sure many of them will try out HotS, but I also think most of those players will keep going back to LoL.

For me, probably AM / Shaman from WO.

I'm not generally a fan of pure healers, but those two did a bit of everything. Being good at them involved a lot more than just spamming heals, you had to cycle through debuffs, resource stealing, CC, damage, and healing. It was a lot of fun.

Originally posted by Kajidourden

These types of bosses lead to a lot of moaning from the player base.

FFXI had notorious monsters that were on respawn timers and had some of the best gear in the game.

The complaint was that if you wanted to get that loot you had to compete with a ton of other players trying to claim the same thing, and it didn't guarantee the drop you wanted either.

Then there were HNMs, which entire linkshells (guilds) would camp around the clock, and people were not above cheating or using game mechanics to wipe other groups.  It really brought out the worst in everyone and I hated them. 

So what happens is, it's either too meaningful, where it sparks "wars" and people are up for two days straight waiting to claim, or it's not meaningful enough, and nobody bothers.

Although I DO miss the ability to get great gear from something other than running the same gotdamn dungeon over and over or raiding the same raid over and over (crafted gear was awesome as well)....NMs can stay gone as far as I care lol.

Edit: Now that I think about it, BCNM was amazing though.  You got drops from mobs that you leveled up on in PvE and then were able to take those and enter instanced battles that had a lot of the same gear as NMs, only it was a one-time use thing, so you had to get it right.  You also didn't get so many of the items needed for BCNM that you could just spam it, they were something you came to really value for their scarcity and what they could potentially get you.

What you're describing is a problem with loot mechanics, not a problem of world raid bosses. GW2 has already fixed this problem by taking away mob tagging, and giving everyone credit for a fight. Because of that, the focus is on who does the most (to the boss) and not on who gets 'dibs'.

As for the OP's question, it comes down to 2 main things:

1) What do you consider 'zerging'. Most people just see a lot of players doing the same thing, and they automatically thing 'great, another zerg-fest'. If that's your mentallity, than the only real solution is instancing. Something you claim to not want.

If you're fine with large groups of players, but are looking for strategy within those numbers, then the answer is somewhat simple:

2) Boss Mechanics. Bosses need mechanics that force players to use their brains, and punish people for trying to facetank everything. Mechanics that cover large areas, and do not have AoE caps are key here. GW2 has a few bosses like this, though I'm hoping they will add more (Triple Trouble, Tequatl, and Vinewraith come to mind).

Last I played, FFXIV also has a few bosses like this (Odin for example). I have seen them get zerged, but it's a lot more difficult than in game like TERA.

Originally posted by Rusque

Hmm, I don't think it can. Not because Blizzard can't draw a large audience, but because they're not really the same game.

Yes, they're both MOBA's, but LoL is a DotA descendent. Blizzard was smart in making HotS different in many ways. No item shop, no last hit micro, no real laning, side-events are a big part of the match, team play emphasis. When I play HotS, it doesn't scratch the DotA/LoL itch and vice versa. They don't play the same and don't feel the same.

I think it will be successful kind of like how Smite feels so different because it's 3D space rather than isometric, it changes the playstyle.

If LoL is basketball, then HotS is hockey. They're both sports, both have nets at each end, and they share a few similarities, but they're just not the same game.

i would say LoL / DotA is more like chess, and HotS is more like checkers.

Both tabletop games where you move circular pieces around tiles. However one is a lot more simplistic / casual than the other.

Originally posted by lipiniak

HI,

Can HotS beat LoL in online gaming? I think hots can be one of major MOBA games. Expectly when blizzard start e-sport with it. What do u think? Make a comment.

Hots :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukTF6tqbojQ

LoL : 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQfbMtdyp94

Not very likely.

The big reason being that LoL is the gateway game to MOBAs. As others have said it's the 'WoW' of MOBAs. And in both cases, each games popularity has much less to do with the game itself, and more to do with the timing in which its popularity struck, and the amount of time (and people's friends) that are heavily invested in the game currently.

Furthermore, lets be honest, HotS is the most shallow 'MOBA' on the market. So much so that Blizzard (at least originally) tried to avoid calling it one. It's amusing seeing people comment on how 'fast paced' and 'counter-picking oriented' the game is. As if that's unique to this game. HotS is a game that has literally been made to cater to gamers who don't like MOBAs, but for some strange reason still want to play MOBAs.

They've deliberately removed most of the strategy from the game, because it's not casual-friendly enough. For this reason it's nothing like DotA, as DotA has the highest amount of technical strategy involved. The highest learning curve. Even League, which is currently the most casual MMO, has more depth to it. It still has some degree of counter building, you still have last hits, you have farming & counter-farming, you have a much more objective oriented game.

HotS is the bare minimum of what constitutes a MOBA, with the focus being on team fights all the time. They've kinda removed the rest and made it so the map basically pushes the objectives for you, and you can mostly focus on fighting. It's certainly a fun game, and I'm sure it will be popular. Because lets face it, it's Blizzard, and you could put that label on anything and people would buy into it.

I think the more interesting question would be how the e-sports scene for that game will look a few years from now. I know they've been working towards one, but given the nature of the game I have to wonder how interesting / popular that will actually be. Or if they will end up changing the game quite a bit to make it more competitive.

Originally posted by Temp0
Originally posted by aesperus

Except that they aren't.

While those elements are certainly commonplace (thanks to games like Final Fantasy), there are also some fairly well known RPGs that don't feature those at all. One of the most obvious being Zelda..

Actually, legend of zelda is not what I would call an rpg. In fact, back in the N64 days it used to be called "action adventure" and that is where I would still put it today.

Oh also as a side note, elder scrolls had classes all the way up to skyrim (it being the only exception as the following elderscrolls online also has classes).

That's arguable, but the creators label it as such. And I wouldn't disagree. I could perhaps agree with you for the original Zelda. but the newer ones still don't have levels, and they do have a plot. You are assuming a role (that of link) and are playing through a story. Which is exactly what defines and constitutes an RPG. No where in that definition is leveling talked about at all.

Originally posted by Gestankfaust
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Gestankfaust
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Gestankfaust

I only want to change one thing....stop making MMO's for crowds. Make what you want as devs/gamers. Like you use to profess. It was your love, so make something YOU love and let the masses come to you. Stop catering to anyone.

hmm .. why can't devs cater to anyone they want? It is their game, right? How do you know they don't want to make such games?

May be they should just stop making MMOs and make single player co-op games. To some extent, they have already do that .. they are just calling these games MMOs. So it is just a matter of semantics.

They did cater the gamers...themselves as well as the crowd. But they did it more for themselves than others back then. Not sure you know what I mean from your response. Doesn't surprise me though.

what is "back then" is irrelevant. They certainly can change their minds, and cater to whoever they want to cater to .. today, right?

No one says they have to cater to the same group forever, right?

Are you trying to be dense?

Back then...they JUST MADE GAMES. They did so because THEY LOVED IT. They made games THEY LOVED regardless of what they community wanted because there was HARDLY the community they have now driving the market.

Do you get it now?

It's not quite that simple.

Devs of today still do it because they love making games. I don't know what you're personal view point on the matter is, but you do NOT become a game developer to become rich. It's one of the dumbest ways to gain wealth you could possibly come up with. They aren't rolling around in bugattis.

What changed is both the market grew larger, BUT ALSO expectations with it. The early MMOs were but a fraction of the cost of today's games. And because they were cheaper to make, they could take more risks, and could afford more experimentation. Today, it's such a hurtle just to get your MMO off the ground, few companies have found enough breathing room to do things radically different.

With the exception of certain EA projects, most devs love what they're working on. You simply don't get into this industry if you don't. Those that do don't tend to last long.

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