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All Posts by aesperus

All Posts by aesperus

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Originally posted by filmoret
Originally posted by aesperus
Originally posted by filmoret

I'm looking at twitch.tv and seeing that this probably represents the gaming market to some degree.  IE viewers would represent an actual % of players who are currently playing these games.  It's hard to say these people are more inclined to watch twitch streams about esports instead of their favorite mmo.  Now before I go into the numbers we realize that any new game automatically has a ton of viewers because its brand spanking new and they are just checking it out.  These games will fall into place within a month or so.

So why would people rather play a moba PVP game then the Moba style instance pvp that MMO's offer?

Why would they rather play moba's over massive war games like ESO or GW2 or Planetside?

You're doing guesswrok.

Twitch is NOT, and never has been a reliable source for discussions on gaming populations. Nor gamer preferences. While twitch primarily features games, what is popular on twitch is not correlated to what has the most players. While there are sometimes overlaps between the two sets of data, what makes a twitch stream popular often has little to do with the game, and much more to do with how entertaining the streamers are to watch.

There are some exceptions. One of the reasons new games are so popular on twitch is because it's common for people to check them out before buying. Or in some cases, they would rather watch someone play through the storyline rather than buy the game themselves.

As for MOBAs, they are entertaining to watch. Especially when there's a big event going on (which is often), like a big tournament for example. While League is definitely one of the most popular games on the market currently, it also has a sizeable amount of people who watch the game, but don't really play.

- As for preferences. I know for a fact that most MOBA players aren't exclusive. Many play other games, including MMOs. As far which games PvPers prefer, they prefer games with good PvP. And as much hate as MOBAs tend to get, they have some of the best fantasy pvp on the market, sadly. A lot of people who try MOBAs don't make it passed the entry levels of the game. They never get based the basic "what does my god do?" and get into all the strategy and nuances of these games.

Those that do find themselves with a double-sided experience. One the one hand there is a ton of strategy to these games, as well as varying degrees of skill required (depending on game and character). Which can be a lot of fun. On the other hand, you have a random chance of being paired up with teammates who understand none of this, and instead just press buttons all game. This is infuriating to deal with, but sadly there is only so much that can be done to combat this and still have a playable game.

*** There are still millions of PvPers that prefer shooters, there are some that prefer MMOs, there are some that prefer CCGs, there are some that prefer RTS, and there are some that prefer fighters.

Now can we please stop using Twitch like it's reliable for anything other than viewer count?

100k people watching people play a game doesn't have any bearing on the popularity of that game?  yea that makes sense.

Read the full post and maybe not cherry pick tidpits you can make snide comments off of?

What is popular on twitch is not CORRELATED to population numbers in real life. For example, if you can get a million people watching pewdiepie googling random crap on the internet, does that mean that most people prefer to google random crap on the internet instead of playing games? Of course it doesn't. It means that those people find pewdiepie entertaining enough to watch him do mindless stuff on the internet.

If we were talking about whether or not League of Legends is a popular game, we wouldn't be having this discussion. It is a popular game, it's one of the most popular games at this time. If the discussion was about whether or not PvP games are more popular on twich, we wouldn't be having this discussion either. But it's not.

You've basically posted a list of (average viewer counts) you basically pulled out of your own mind, realized that LoL is one of the most popular games on twitch, and now are trying to tie that to the topic of what PvPers prefer. We're not even talking about League players anymore, but all PvPers based on your own topic. Twitch can sometimes be a baseline idea for what's popular, but trying to show preference amongst demographics is another thing entirely. First you need to establish the demographic (i.e. is a 'PvPer' everyone who's ever touched a PvP game? What about the people who play league against bots? Are they still PvPers?), then you need to distinguish choice (i.e. this group has tried these games and most have stuck with this game). You've done none of that.

Please show me some actual data that supports a correlation between twitch views and player gaming preferences and I will be astonished. Maybe I was wrong, and there actually were thousands of people playing Shantae during the last AGDQ. Until then, I'm going to stick with what I have found to be true. That viewer counts are their own beast entirely. That there are infact people who watch games they do not play, and that while you can make lucky guesses based on what's popular, it does not mean that everything that's popular follows that same trend.

Originally posted by Ramajama

Now when I read history of different things - comics, book genres, etc. I always find a reference to golden age of that specific genre. I imagine, what it would be like to live in that period and enjoy this genre and how people felt about it.

When I look at number of players across all MMORPGs today and look at number of MMORPGs and how many are popping every year, the Golden Age of MMORPGs comes to my mind.

Would you define current period as an Golden Age? And if not, what "Age" would you call it?

If you say its in decline, you have to define a period that you would call Golden Age and would be great to give some argument to support your claim. I only lay it based on pure numbers.

Golden Age has already passed.

If you wanna know what it's like to live during those types of times, it's simple.

Imagine you're constantly looking forward to the next big thing. And by the time you realize you've already experienced it, it's too late.

Originally posted by filmoret

I'm looking at twitch.tv and seeing that this probably represents the gaming market to some degree.  IE viewers would represent an actual % of players who are currently playing these games.  It's hard to say these people are more inclined to watch twitch streams about esports instead of their favorite mmo.  Now before I go into the numbers we realize that any new game automatically has a ton of viewers because its brand spanking new and they are just checking it out.  These games will fall into place within a month or so.

So why would people rather play a moba PVP game then the Moba style instance pvp that MMO's offer?

Why would they rather play moba's over massive war games like ESO or GW2 or Planetside?

You're doing guesswrok.

Twitch is NOT, and never has been a reliable source for discussions on gaming populations. Nor gamer preferences. While twitch primarily features games, what is popular on twitch is not correlated to what has the most players. While there are sometimes overlaps between the two sets of data, what makes a twitch stream popular often has little to do with the game, and much more to do with how entertaining the streamers are to watch.

There are some exceptions. One of the reasons new games are so popular on twitch is because it's common for people to check them out before buying. Or in some cases, they would rather watch someone play through the storyline rather than buy the game themselves.

As for MOBAs, they are entertaining to watch. Especially when there's a big event going on (which is often), like a big tournament for example. While League is definitely one of the most popular games on the market currently, it also has a sizeable amount of people who watch the game, but don't really play.

- As for preferences. I know for a fact that most MOBA players aren't exclusive. Many play other games, including MMOs. As far which games PvPers prefer, they prefer games with good PvP. And as much hate as MOBAs tend to get, they have some of the best fantasy pvp on the market, sadly. A lot of people who try MOBAs don't make it passed the entry levels of the game. They never get based the basic "what does my god do?" and get into all the strategy and nuances of these games.

Those that do find themselves with a double-sided experience. One the one hand there is a ton of strategy to these games, as well as varying degrees of skill required (depending on game and character). Which can be a lot of fun. On the other hand, you have a random chance of being paired up with teammates who understand none of this, and instead just press buttons all game. This is infuriating to deal with, but sadly there is only so much that can be done to combat this and still have a playable game.

*** There are still millions of PvPers that prefer shooters, there are some that prefer MMOs, there are some that prefer CCGs, there are some that prefer RTS, and there are some that prefer fighters.

Now can we please stop using Twitch like it's reliable for anything other than viewer count?

Originally posted by Tracho12
"It really hasn't been made completely clear if Heart of Thorns will only bring one specialization to each profession"

Ugh, yeah, it has. Straight out of Colin's mouth, 'one specialization per profession'.

Not to mention mastery lines are a rip off of Everquest's AA system that's been cloned in hundreds of other MMOs. But nope, you're right David, this mastery system is truly unique and not 'standard formula'.

Thanks for the article, now I'm gonna go bash my head in the wall.


 

The article is undoubtedly late, and flawed.

However, if you think the mastery system is a rip of of Everquest's AA system, you didn't pay attention. Given how it was advertised, the mastery system isn't unique to games, but it is a feature we haven't really seen in an MMO. It's not like everquest, and instead more like metroid. You wanna enter that secret room? Well you need to go discover how to use a grappling hook first. That is the mastery system, and it's honestly a welcome addition.

I have yet to see an MMO have such a feature set.

Originally posted by maskedweasel
Originally posted by observer

Uhh, have you even played GW2?  He's right.  Players do come together to help each other out with heart tasks, revives, and events.  It's actually unique, in that you don't need a group to do these things.  The only other MMO that is similar is Rift's events.

Not true... first of all, the "helping a player out" is mostly inadvertent for hearts and dynamic events.  In fact, DCUO doesn't allow for Kill Stealing... so for example you have to kill 20 of X mob... and you just tag one and someone else kills it,  you still get credit.  In this way players are helping players out in the same fashion as GW2,,, they just happen to be there at the same time doing the same thing, and everyone gets credit.

Warhammer was doing it long before that and CoX was doing it before that.. and many MMOs followed.that had some type of public grouping effect.  What GW2 does differently is that they make it more obvious its happening because its pretty much the entire scope of PvE.

I think you may have completely missed the point to this game. 'Mob Tagging' is part of a series of design decisions all based around the idea of players helping each other. You're mostly right about hearts, they are the MOST far removed from Anet's design approach. They exist, because many people needed help 'guidance' as to where to go in the game. And were either incapable, or unwilling to go out and explore on their own. They were lost, they needed some amount of handholding. That is what hearts are. On face value, you're right, they don't encourage group play. However, what they do is direct players to areas with nearby events. Many of which do encourage group play. And indeed what happens is you have players going along in their own little world and then start bumping into other playes doing events. These are tools that are designed to push players towards each other, even if you yourself don't see it. Furthermore hearts don't exist in any of the upper level content. They are there solely to ween new players into the gameplay experience.

That said, there are a multitude of reasons to play with others, to help out others. To say otherwise is basically electing to be a dodo bird. You get better loot for grouping with others, you get rewarded for reviving others (it helps progress many events, you can get exp, and players often thank you for it as well). Furthermore, with the more elaborate events you have entire zones of players coordinating to achieve goals. Look at Vinewraith for example. You have players communicating in map chat 'hey how are you guys doing over there, do you need help, we may need backup over here!' etc. etc. etc.

I'm sorry, but you just don't see those kinds of things in other MMOs. The closest thing other mmos have to that is endgame raiding, and Cyrodil.

Originally posted by syntax42

I am getting tired of relying on the RNG to determine if I get the loot I want or not.  A lot of the time, the items will determine my end-game progression.  There is nothing more frustrating than spending days farming the same dungeon and not getting the item(s) I need to progress because of a silly RNG system.

Token systems are great, in my opinion.  Sometimes you get rewarded with a "lucky" drop and other times you just have to earn enough tokens to buy the item you were looking for.  As long as the rate of earning the tokens isn't too low, I can tolerate games which use a combination of RNG and token system.

Lastly, please don't suggest any free-to-play games unless they don't use the token/drop system as a means of monetizing their game.  That turns into pay-to-win very fast and I refuse to play those money-grabbing schemes.

You aren't alone, but unfortunately this is a concept that has only recently started to gain some traction in the MMO genre.

The following games would be worth looking at for what you want:

GW2 (the best gear in the game can be gained through crafting, tokens, or random rewards. You're choice which method suits you best). There is RNG in the game, but it's not tied to power. It's tied to cosmetics, which can be frustrating as some of those cosmetics are worth a lot of money, but that's it. You don't need to spend a dime on the cash shop if you don't want to, and everything can be obtained via in-game gold. You do need to buy the box, though. They just recently had a sale which brought it down to ~15$, but I think it's back up to around 30 again.

Game is a fantasy MMO which combines some themepark and open-world elements.

Eve. There is a pretty big time sink for this game, but everything is basically gained by crafting & trading. Game is based around space-navigation and combat. Sci-Fi open-world game.

Planetside 2. Not based on RNG, the game still tends to veer towards P2W in certain ways (which is really unfortunate), but everything is gained via exp unlocks (think call of duty / battlefield). A Sci-Fi FPS MMO.

Firefall. This game does have RNG, but all loot is crafted. This one's not that popular tbh, which is kind of a downside. I dunno if I'd recommend this (it's certainly not a bad game), but just letting you know it's there.

- I'm sure I'm probably missing a game or two, but there's a list to start with.

LF a MOBA!
LFGame « General Discussion
2/01/15 8:35:54 AM
Originally posted by Golarum

Hello all,

I know MOBAs are not MMORPGs, but I am extremely familiar with mmos and am looking to get into a moba, I need suggestions based on what I am looking for.

Please recommend what you think would be best for me, I appreciate the help!

I'll break down the main 3 MOBAs atm for ya, then give my recommendation:

1) League of Legends. This is perhaps the easiest MOBA to get into. The balance isn't bad, it's the most popular MOBA, and the learning curve isn't that terribly high compared to other MOBAs. It's kind of the middle-of-the-road MOBA if you aren't looking for any extremes as far as gameplay.

2) DOTA2. This game has the highest mechanical / game knowledge cap out of all the MOBAs. The game has a surprisingly large amount of nuance that can add up very fast if you're playing with players who understand how to exploit them. For example, there are lots of strats that revolve around pulling creeps in different ways, manipulating monster spawns, clever ward placements, denying kills (killing your own teammates deliberately), etc. etc. etc. And that's all in addition to understanding what items to build and the intricacies of each champion. This game is great for those who enjoy hardcore strategy, and heavy theory crafting.

- The way DOTA2 handles balance can be a shock to newer players. Basically every character feels overpowered as hell, but they also all have counters. So, if you don't understand how to counter each character then you will repeatedly get hit by things that feel extremely unfair. However, once you understand the game more you can do some really fun combos.

3) SMITE. This is the MOBA that feels most like an MMO in terms of combat. This game has a high emphasis on personal skill, as basically everything is a skill shot of some kind or another. It also shared DOTA2's sense of game balance, so when you start there are a lot of combos that seem unfair. However, similar to DOTA2, the balance is actually surprisingly good (possibly even better, depending on your personal philosophy on balance). There are really only a couple (out of 62 currently) characters that you rarely see get played. This game also has the most varied game modes, so if you aren't fan of the extremely tactical main map mode, you can play less serious / more casual game modes if that's your thing.

***Recommendation: SMITE. It will probably feel the most comfortable for you, and it's a surprisingly good game tbh. It's biggest downside is that it needs more players atm. There are still a decent amount of people playing, but because they don't have numbers similar to LoL or DoTA, sometimes the matchmaking suffers and you get games that can feel a bit unfair.

4) Heroes of the Storm. I'm throwing this in here because it's popular. This game is kind of an anomaly, and is basically popular 'cause Blizzard. This game is basically designed as a MOBA, for people who don't like MOBAs, but still want to play a MOBA, even though they don't like them. Which makes literally no sense, but hey it's Blizzard. Essentially, if you are looking for a MOBA with questionable balance, and which most (if not all) of the strategy that is the foundation for this genre removed, then this is the game for you. Tbh I wouldn't recommend this for anyone unless you are a fan of Blizzard. In which case you probably already know about it (and will likely play it at some point anyway).

Originally posted by kanechart

So I'm looking for a really kickass Melee Class. One that can wipe the floor in PvE and solo single target elite mobs that give quite a punch. Something that does not kill all my heath so fast that I'm having to run away all the time etc.

I been playing my Nightblade Archer. I sort of liked the archer at first. I mean I think the biggest reason is because you can always shoot at range and always get a hit or 2 off if other players are near you. In PvP this seems to also be the case plus you don't want to go to Melee range at low levels or your instantly gone.

But I seen in PvP and PvE some classes just wrecking everything even at lower levels without taking almost any damage or they tend to be able to recharge their health really fast.

I heard Templar and Dragon Knight is some the 2 best Melee classes for people who are not going for the whole cloak and dagger type feel. I'm looking for maybe more information the difference between the 2 classes and their playstyle. 

1 Hand and shield sounds like a badass combo depending if the DPS is good but I love to hear what you guys would suggest.

I want to crush in PvE and maybe do Okay in PvP as in if I need to use a bow in PvP to not die that would be fine.

Sorc is still > everything else.

If you want a melee class that truly feels like a melee class, just go w/ Nightblade (or Templar if you're thinking more Paladin). They're both good in their own ways, and can be good in PvP.

DK can be OP w/ certain builds, but tbh all classes work best w/ a mix of magicka / stamina, or with magicka.

Originally posted by iGumballStar

This expansion is more focused around reshaping the end-game of GW2 and introducing features that the players have been asking for for a while. If Anet is doing this right, they should use the feedback they gotten from the past to shape the fundemental systems that they think their game should be based upon.

I would personally await future expansions to be more contnet-heavy. This one feels more like setting the last pieces of the puzzle in the right place prepearing to introduce content instead of reshaping the systems any further.

I kinda get the same sense tbh.

Which is why I think this is the make or break expansion for them. If they do this right, it paves the way for a lot of good things that players have wanted for a while now. If they mess this up, or it releases in an underwhelming state, it's going to completely backfire and scare off not only new players, but old players as well.

The other thing they need to keep in mind is that, if they do this right, they can't wait another 3 years to release decent content. They're going to need to be timely about it (i.e. within ~6months after the expac they need to have something significant lined up). I'm not saying an expansion, but they will need an intriguing LS story, and possibly more PvP maps or something, etc.

Originally posted by DMKano
Originally posted by bestever
Originally posted by DMKano

I am still trying to figure out what audience this MOBA is trying to appeal to - obviously not LoL or Dota2 fans (which is like 95% of the entire MOBA playerbase).

Confusing

Maybe the smite fans. 

Maybe but that is such a tiny segment - 

I think they're trying to bring new people in - non-Moba fans, and that simply has not worked so far - even Blizzard tried to to that with Heroes of the Storm and it's not working for them either.

I think as pretty as Gigantic looks, it might be a gigantic flop - hopefully not, but we'll see

I sadly have to agree with this ^

Smite, despite being one of the best MOBAs on the market, and making huge efforts to develop its esports scene, is still struggling to get the playerbase it needs. Unfortunately, in this genre, that also affects gameplay. Without a healthy enough population, you don't get  a good enough spread of skill levels. Which makes matchmaking an absolute nightmare.

Furthermore you already have 3 solid camps of players between LoL, DotA2, and Smite. Everything else so far has been a niche, (or in Blizzards case, an attempt to make a MOBA that isn't a MOBA, for people who don't like MOBAs, but somehow still are interested in playing one?) and with games like these niches don't tend to do all that well.

I really hope this doesn't become the new trend of gaming. (either you pioneer a completely new genre / are the first game to popularize it, or it doesn't matter how well made your games are, because no one will support them). It's a massive chicken & egg problem that has started with MMOs, now exists within MOBAs, and I hope we don't see it spreading to other genres. This mentality of not playing games unless they are already popular, or completely different to everything else only hurts games. And in-turn, us gamers.

rip Massively. You will be missed /salute
Originally posted by filmoret
First would you explain what you call linear questing and then tell us what exactly is the alternative?  The only thing I can figure is a zone mixed with all kinds of level mobs.  I don't see how a mmo can exist if it doesn't have zones that have certain level mobs in those zones.  How would you feel as a lvl 20 running into a level 90 group of mobs?  I think the market has done an excellent job in placing super strong mobs in every area.   But mobs that are unkillable is more realistic however do you really as a lvl 90 want to visit a level 20 area just to kill that group of mobs placed there?

You're kind of talking about  2 different aspects, tbh.

The first (linear questing) is a pretty interesting topic, and there are a few examples of games that have branched away from that type of design. Most noteably would either be sandbox MMOs (SWG, Eve, etc.) but also some of the more recent themeparks (GW2 for example) have more open questing.

The 2nd problem you refer to is levels / leveling / difficulty pacing. While this can be a result of poor quest design, it is indeed a separate problem all together.

1) If you want to learn more about quest design here is an interesting video that talks about this topic. It is a 2 parter, but I linked you the 2nd part, as it gets more to the point. However, part 1 also has some pretty valid points if your interested and cites the original everquest as an example of non-linear quesitng. Simply put, the alternative to linear questing is to not use questing as a method for guiding players through a vertical level grind. Instead, use quests as a means to engage players within the world, to encourage discovery. As tools that players have to actually discover / find on their own, without the super obvious ! above everything. It requires more engagement by the player, but when done right you get games like EQ and TSW which both have some great quests in them.

2) Difficulty pacing is a somewhat complex issue, and there are a number of ways around it. One is to scale the encounters to a players level. Another is to do away with levels entirely (which is harder to do these days, as everyone wants levels because it makes them feel powerful, and that they're accomplishing something at all times). Another way is to have lose guidelines, but also provide some higher lvl encounters in each zone. Games like FFXI and Dragon Age 3 have done this for example, and it's actually not a bad thing. It gives players a reason to return to old zones, and gives them early hints that 'hey, there is something bigger going on here that I'll have to come back to'.

- There are alternatives out there, you just have to look for them.

Originally posted by Magnetia

I believe Colin chose his words very carefully about the specializations. According to the marketing department it will change the core experience of the class, of course we know that this may not necessarily be so. I main necro and am hoping to see myself as more than a condition handler. I too am looking for that 'hours of build theory crafting' like before.

I am going to be super super super generous in saying that they are essentially adding 9 new classes to play. That is IF the specializations make a genuine difference in gameplay. We'll have to wait and see on this point.

It will be nice when we see more details about the mastery system, it seemed to promote exploration which is always a plus in my books. 

Indeed I know he chose his words very carefully.

It's for this reason that I try and pay attention to the actual words being said, and not get caught up in the intended ideal being presented. For example, lets talk about the specializations:

They're promising that 'they will change the core experience of the class'. Which sounds amazing. But in reality, what is needed to change the core experience of a class? New skills, a new trait line, and a new class-skill (the F1-4 keys)

This may all seem fairly obvious, but you can essentially add all that, and still have a class basically feel the same. Which is not what we want. What's going to determine how well this works is how effectively they are able to make the playstyles FEEL different from what we currently have. And we won't even begin to know that until more info is released, and people have had a chance to play the demo.

- I don't think I can support the '9 new classes' thing any more. I'm having a hard time believing they will feel that way (again, hopefully I'm wrong about this)

- I am with you 110% on the masteries, though. This system reminds me of games like Megaman, Metroid, Zelda. All gaming classics, whos mechanics we rarely see these days. Having the ability to acquire new abilities that open up the game world is HUGE. It's one of my favorite methods of progression (horizontal), and it shows top design sense. I really hope this aspect (if no others) catches momentum, because it is truly a crime that we do not have more games that use such design principles.

I think the last game to do this was Arkham City? Literally almost every example I can think of for games that have such a system has resulted in an amazing game. GW2.. don't dissapoint! ><

Originally posted by DMKano

Isn't hatred harmful to communities in general?

I don't see why game-specific hatred would be different to gaming communities

I guess the the thread could be summed up as 

Hatred is harmful __________ (insert whatever specific topic you want to talk about - like gaming, education, politics, relationships etc....)

Pretty much this ^

Which is ironic considering the OP's post history.

That said, when it comes to 'anti-WoW' sentiments I will say this. WoW is fairly feature complete when it comes to the traditional themepark / raid-centric MMO. This is why there are so many themeparks out there that resemble it in some way or another. However, nearly all of WoW's key features are defining to the typical (classic) themepark / vertical progression / raid-centric MMO. Most of the proponents against WoW (not including the people who just blindly hate on it), do so because they do not want that same game.

In such cases, WoW's features get dismissed because people DO NOT WANT THE SAME GAME! Which is a pretty important distinction to keep in mind. WoW has many good features to it. If it didn't, it would not be as successful as it is today. However, WoW is designed around a very specific mentality. A very old mentality. And you don't get change by just repeating the status-quo with a new skin. This is often why things from WoW get rejected when talking about new games. It's not because of a deep seeded hatred of the game, but rather that the features WoW has works great for games like it; and at this point many MMO fans do not want that game anymore.

Just to reiterate, I'm not saying that there aren't people who blindly hate on WoW, or that hatred (of any kind) isn't bad. I'm merely stating that there is also a good reason that many people reject most of WoW's ideals / features.

Originally posted by Magnetia
Originally posted by aesperus
Originally posted by Loke666
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

1 new region.

Maguuma Jungle is huge.

Agreed, there should be at least a few zones and not a single one. Maguuma djungle alredy had a several zones in GWEN where it was just a small part of that expansion, here it is the main focus.

Still I expect it to be a smaller expansion compared to GWEN or the 2 GW1 campaigns, but I doubt it will be tiny. A single zone would upset all GW2 players including me.

Ya, hopefully they will clear up this confusion before too long.

They definitely said one new region (area), but not how many zones will actually make it up. I also agree that this xpac is feeling like it will be smaller in comparison to some of the other stuff we've seen in the past. I only hope we're all wrong about that.

I am imagining something like lornars pass but as deep as dry top. It's a lot of map IF it's that big. I heard a few quotes about 'bigger than any zone currently in the game but that can mean any number of things.

I'm kinda getting the same idea tbh. The big question is going to be in HOW the content is packed into these more vertical zones. if it's done in a clever enough way to make them feel larger, then it might actually work. However if it just feels like the same amount of content spread out over difficult to get to spot (lots of jumping puzzles / etc.) It will probably backfire pretty hard. Personally I enjoy jumping puzzles, but not all the time. And I know many people who actually hate them.

Either way it seems like they're taking a pretty big gamble with how they are approaching these new zones. Hopefully it pays off.

Originally posted by CriticKitten

Mmm, I dunno about it being "huge".  I took a moment to sketch out the possible regions that HoT might use.

It looks pretty big....until you realize that you could pretty much fill the bulk of that space with just the Ascalonian maps on the original world map.  And keep in mind that I was being generous and highlighting ALL of the regions that they could potentially use on the map, assuming no "dead space".  It's honestly not very likely that they'll use ALL of that highlighted area.

So I'd say "big", perhaps.  "Huge"....not really.  It's only about equivalent to the size of any one major map region.  That's a big step up from the Living Story's usual pace of one small map every once in a while....but still pretty far away from reaching "huge" levels IMO ("huge", to me, would be "a new map large enough to nearly match the existing world map in scale")

If I had to guess, the new content will likely be limited to the southern 2 areas. The northern one seems unlikely given the aesthetic they've shown, but I could be wrong. It would fit much more of a barren / oasis theme than a jungle one.

I think what they're banking on is that the vertical nature of the zones will make them feel more like 6-9 zones instead of 2-3. This'll really depend on how well they're put together, though. As to whether they'll feel like one big zone full of stuff, or more like a few smaller ones w/ a lot of annoying jumping parts.

Originally posted by Loke666
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

1 new region.

Maguuma Jungle is huge.

Agreed, there should be at least a few zones and not a single one. Maguuma djungle alredy had a several zones in GWEN where it was just a small part of that expansion, here it is the main focus.

Still I expect it to be a smaller expansion compared to GWEN or the 2 GW1 campaigns, but I doubt it will be tiny. A single zone would upset all GW2 players including me.

Ya, hopefully they will clear up this confusion before too long.

They definitely said one new region (area), but not how many zones will actually make it up. I also agree that this xpac is feeling like it will be smaller in comparison to some of the other stuff we've seen in the past. I only hope we're all wrong about that.

Originally posted by Magnetia

How much content will we REALLY be getting until the next expansion? The answer to that lies in the future and behind a paywall. A paywall I am more than willing to break with money.

The answer to that is still mostly very vague. And the devil will be in the details.

I'm maintaining a cautiously optimistic, though the more info I here that's underwhelming the more pessimistic I'm becoming. The new region is a welcome one, I hope it feels as huge as they seem to think. They have been working on it for some time now. Perhaps the most exciting announcements to me (so far) are the masteries (a design choice that's been absent from most games for far too long), and bosses that seem to actually have decent mechanics (finally).

The new class I'm curious about, I hope it is indeed similar to dervish / ritualist from GW1 in many ways. Both were very fun & interesting classes I would love to see re-imagined in this game. However, the more I hear about specializations, the more skeptical I get about them. At a base level, they can basically just be '1 new weapon, a couple new skills, and 1 new trait line'. And technically, that would change how the class can play. But that isn't what I think most of us want. We don't want the technicality, we want to be blown off our feet. We want to get lost in new choices. And I just don't know how they are going to do that with just one weapon, and a bite-sized handful of new skills.

As for PvP, I'm sure that guilds will welcome the ability to actually do legit GvG (maybe even involving guild halls?). Hopefully the team sizes will be large enough to make them feel like a proper GvG (because I don't think queing as a 5-man guild is going to do it for most people). The WvW changes will need to be significant, so we'll see if they do infact solve the problems most servers are having w/ WvW atm.

- There is a lot not that needs to be done for this xpansion to work. However they have been at it for a couple years now, so they have had time to get it right. We'll see.

Originally posted by UgUgUg

What Anet seem tto be going to release is an Eye of the North size expansion and I don't think there will be much more content between now and the release either which could be months away. I believe the intention is to give players with level 80 toons more to do as an end game so it wont contribute to leveling alts through something new yet as Guild Wars 2 designers do well that contradicts the versatility in the design of the game.

This is what worries me as well. And I would absolutely love to be proven wrong in this case.

EotN was okay, because the game already had an overwhelming amount of crap to do in it. The expansion was sort of like a 'teaser', a hint of what's to come, and people got excited for it. It certainly wasn't a bad xpac either, but it was indeed somewhat tame, feature-wise.

In this case, you have thousands of people who aren't happy with the current LS situation. Season 2 is definitely a lot better from Season 1 (which is a really good sign), but many people aren't sure (or don't think) that the LS will really hold them for a prolonged period of time. Which is something the xpac needs to do. The PvP crowd has been desperate for a WvW fix, and new content for a LONG time now, and have basically felt neglected for the most part. The new sPvP game mode is welcome, but it's only 1 map. We've gotten a couple of those here and there for free already. They do help to shake things up a bit, but given the lottery system there needs to be more there. (Perhaps a queing option to select preferred maps / map order, so it isn't always a random choice of a random map selection). As for WvW, I really hope the new map they are implementing fixes things, a lot. If I'm understanding them correctly (and it's just 1 borderlands), then that would also seem a bit lax. WvW crowd is looking for an overhaul on the whole system. If we either A) only are getting a new borderland, or B) are geting a new map that we rarely get to play, it's not going to sit happy w/ many. That said, given my experience w/ EotM, they are definitely learning and growing (as a game).

However, what a lot of people are basically looking for out of this xpac is for Anet to demonstrate that they are in-tune w/ their own playerbase. That they have indeed listened to the players, and are providing what many of us need to keep going forward. Needing time to add content is understandable. But expecting players to wait another 2-3 years while you spin your wheels figuring out how to fix past mistakes is going to be a tough sell.

- I really, REALLY hope that they have a mountain of features they are holding close to the chest to reveal to us over time.

Originally posted by Flyte27
Originally posted by aesperus

Good points, but I will say that the majority of x class will usually follow x way that most Rangers live.  Sure some might do something different, but likely this would be the rare individual.  Likely individuals you would want to keep unique like drizzt in order to make things more fun and interesting.  If everyone is now able to be drizzt then drizzt has lost his meaning in the world.  This is better reserved for NPCs in most cases IMO.  In modern times I would say most ideas would be accepted by society, but in medieval times there was little in the way of communication and societies were vastly separated.  Good and Evil was fairly resolute in their eyes.  We are also talking about a society where there are deities that are devoted to good and evil.  Something that doesn't exist in the real world at all.  With that in mind it's hard to say that there can be no absolute good and evil in game.  I would consider Necromancers to be evil in any game I played (by general rule).  They would at the very least shunned by most of society (even if they were trying to do good things for some weird reason (usually they would worship some type of evil god as a general rule)). 

That should be left up to the player. If you're lore is rich enough, and there is enough class customization (not just in terms of abilities / stats, but in terms of lore / titles / looks / etc.) The player base will sort itself out to some degree. The average rangers will all kind of look like, and hang out in the same areas, while the outliers will look different, and hang out in their own areas.

But the last thing you want to do, in an MMO, is to force players to NOT interact with others. That's one of the fastest ways to kill a multiplayer game. Remember, at the end of the day, if it's not fun, no one will play it. That said, one of the exceptions to this (that can kind of work, but it's tricky) are command-based classes. Classes that command / guide other players, and help them in some way.

These classes can be more isolated (either in a command chair, a throne, up in a mage's tower, etc.). Because it does make sense to have some kind of isolated vantage point in which a person can see the battlefield, so they can make informed decisions in real time. However, this is not to say that command-based classes should always be forced into isolation, just that mechanically this makes sense during times of battle / war.

Most players play these types of games to have fun w/ others. Even if it sounds good lore wise, removing that is pretty much always a bad move.

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