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All Posts by aesperus

All Posts by aesperus

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Originally posted by Amylion
My comment:
Some reports read like troll attempts after getting laid off, but there is some truth behind all those statements, and even I as a customer can experience the issues, especially if I "have" to take part in testing an alpha version of their game. Again, I have no clue where the sixty million dollars have gone. Of course it went into the development of "H1Z1" and "Everquest Next", but where are the results? Why is "Landmark" still on the level they have been a year ago?

Is this a sinking ship where the crew has lost faith or even worse, is sabotaging the ship so they can jump off it sooner?

In any case, there is a lot to be done at SOE and this doesn't exclude a big internal restructuring process that separates the good apples from the bad ones...

Amylion

No offense, but you should never NEVER pay to play another game's beta. Ever again. If you see something promise 'help develope the game' or 'exclusive access before release', stay away. Don't even think about it.

Nearly everything you've pointed out / complained about are part of developing a game. Especially one as ambitious as this one. You don't make an innovative new type of MMO, with feature we don't really have in other MMOs, without experimentation. You don't get a game such as this without huge risks, with out lots of trial & error and constantly tweaking the game mechanics BEFORE you finalize the visuals and responsiveness.

It makes no sense to finalize things like UI, when you don't even have all the game mechanics in place yet. That stuff tends to be finished shortly before launch, once they know for certain exactly how many features are going to be in game, and whether there are any potential conflicts they need to be mindful of. I'm not saying to expect stuff like that to be drastically different, but definitely don't expect it to be polished at this point. That's unrealistic.

I know a lot of games have used alpha / beta testing as a marketting tool to sell there game. And as a result many of us have no clue (or have forgotten) what an actual alpha / beta test is like. This is not one of those games. This game is undergoing actual testing. Wait until launch before playing.

Originally posted by darkhalf357x
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

I respectfully disagree. "Suits" turned MMOs into a business, instead of entertainment.

When your top priority is "the bottom line", then creativity (aka: risk) goes away.

nah ...

a) entertainment *is* business. They are not mutually exclusive.

b) creativity != risk. And who says risks goes away? There are plenty of risky moves in big entertainment from the Lone Ranger, John Carter in movies, to TOR in video games.

In fact, the bottomline encourages competition, and when your business is not working, innovate or die.

Entertainment is definitely not business.  Entertainment (by definition) mean to be provided by enjoyment or amusement -- which could literally be anything.

Entertainment can be a form of business (which is what I think you meant).

When measuring risk you have to add in severity.  That is to say some risks are more damaging (more risky) than other risks.  Creativity is a bigger risk than a risky move because it has nothing to start from.  Your examples of risk is following a known pattern.

The argument is kind of moot. Nothing is technically a business, until there's a market for it and people find a way to profit off of it. At that point anything can be considered a business. Necessities, luxuries, entertainment, education, it doesn't matter.

That said, creativity is definitely symbiotic with risk. You need to take risks to do something creative. Being creative means taking a risk on something unknown, because you believe you can make something amazing. This goes beyond just art, and also applies to things like science / inventions / etc. You cannot have innovation without risk, and creativity is all about innovation. Trying new things, and doing things in new and interesting ways.

Which is ironic, because narfuss says this and contradicts it at the same time. Bottom line, business encourages stability. Business looks to find the known (a formula) to engineer success / profit.This is where you get companies like EA. Such practices are at complete odds with the creative process. You can't embrace risky experimentation by adhering to a predefined formula. And we see the problems w/ doing so all over the place, from Movies & TV, to the music industry, and now games. Just as we see the benefits of taking those risks all over, from the MMO, to self-managed bands, to netflix.

(btw, Lone Ranger, & John Carter are horrible examples of risky movies)

Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 


Originally posted by Loktofeit



That is a good point. But what about Mythic, SOE, and the other "big houses" that developed the first MMORPGS? These were not "indy houses" that did not have rent to pay. Or were they? They "seemed" to care more about what they could do on a PC then how much money they could make, though I am sure that factored in.

 

I don't think there are many "Suits" in the Indy scene, though. Those usually don't show up until later, as the company grows :)

Mythic actually did start out as a relatively small studio. And grew with the success of DAoC, only to be devoured by EA. RIP.

SOE on the other hand, is a bit of an outlier for this topic. SOE is notoriously a company that makes a good games, with some really interesting / innovative game mechanics / designs. And, without fail, they almost always ruin those games with horrible last-minute business decisions. I.E. Smeddly Greed is a common joke amongst the players.

They aren't afraid of taking risks, but they usually overcompensate for that w/ a fairly overaggressive cashshop.

Originally posted by Loke666

Yes, gaming companies do need investros, the problem is when the investors starts to micro manage the devs.

If you hire in a competent lead designer who have proven himself before you should let him (or her for that matter) handle the game and focus on marketting and such.

I bet all MMO designers are gamers themselves and they do know what gamers like. By telling them something like "make something very similar to WoW but with better graphics"  you will probably get your money back but you wont make a great game and a great game outsells any cheap copy.

Sun Tzu said that politicians should let the generals handle the war and just set some simple prime directives and the same goes here. Instead of forcing the devs to make Wow again just tell them you want a fantasy MMO and let them make the mechanics and world based on the budget they get.

Suits are not a bad thing as long as they do what they are good at, but leave the game design to the game designers. 

I myself am a toolmaker, I code and run machines to make parts that an engineer draws. The engineer makes an excellent work but if we switch or if he starts to micromanage what I do it would all turn to crap.

Shoemaker, stay at your last.

^

This guy gets it.

I'm a bit confused by the OP. I mean, I get it.. he's angry.

However... in his mind, if it's a themepark.. it's a WoW-clone. And he hates themeparks.. so he's gunna stick to playing WoW?

He also references 5 games, out of which only 2 are really WoW clones (FFXIV / Wildstar). SWTOR may be the next closest (but has a much MUCH larger emphasis on your personal storyline, and decision driven cinematics). But The Secret World and GW2?

Seriously.. both games are so far removed from WoW it's not even funny. TSW has one of the most interesting quest designs in an MMO period. It's focused a lot around puzzles, and mystery, and the combat is nothing like WoW's. It has dungeons, but what themepark doesn't?

And GW2? Really.. the game is so different from WoW that most of it's criticisms have come from the fact that it's not enough like WoW. It's like saying oil and water are too similar because they're both liquids. Furthermore TSW has had major updates, and there's supposedly an expansion reveal coming soon for GW2. So I'm not sure where that criticism is coming from.

- Then he goes to point out 2 games EQN / Blackdesert that he's curious about. 1 is a sandbox, and the other is a very pretty asian themepark.

Maybe it's just me, but it seems like the OP doesn't know what he wants, and is just kind of flailing around angrily because he can't figure it out. If you're sick of themeparks, there are sandboxes available to play. If you like themeparks, but not WoW-style themeparks, there are actually a lot of options. It's just a matter of trying out numerous games and finding one that's fun for you. It may not have 100% of the features you want, but you didn't design it. So it's unrealistic to expect that of each game.

Originally posted by botrytis
Originally posted by AlBQuirky
**snip for length***

AHH games ARE A BUSINESS. So are movies, etc. You have a very naive attitude because without the bottom line, there WOUD BE NO MMO's.

People who understand money HAVE to be in charge as they see the big picture. Most gamers don't see that and that is the issue. It is all about themselves and not the survival of a company.

Most developers do not have 100 ft yacht . You have totally made no sense of your argument and there fore should be discounted for this discussion.

The problem comes in the scope of the management.

Being 'in charge' is fine as a framework. I.E. We will give you X dollars to make your game, and you have until Y date to make it happen. However if those same people start trying to play artist and begin making creative decisions, it usually creates many more problems than it helps. And indeed, can often end up costing those very same people more money than if they would've just stayed out of it.

Essentially, the way it's supposed to work is the creative lead (lead designer), the lead producer, and the financier (which sometimes is the same person as the previous two) should all have an understanding of the larder picture. It is the lead designer's job to make sure the vision of that larger picture remains intact. It is the producers job to make sure that it remains on schedule, and it is the financier's responsibility to make sure it stays funded.

Any of those 3 can hit roadbumps, hickups, delays. But once you start seeing those 3 roles interfering with one another, it always creates issues.

Originally posted by Azaron_Nightblade
Originally posted by Dexter2010

If a contract dictates a playable game with X features by Y date, and is not met, what consequences do devs face? I've never heard of funds being reimbursed, I've only seen deadline extensions and additional financial contributions being made to devs; or the occasional shut down.which leaves nothing to show for money spent. Rewards for fuck ups? Devs can resell their progress (paid for by initial publishers) to other publishers, but what do initial investors walk away with?

Pretty sure the NDAs cover all of that.

Even when a project gets shut down, none of that code will ever see the light of day again. (Unless someone manages to smuggle it out, and even then selling it would be out of the question because of legal repercussions)

Ideally yes, but realistically not necessarily.

It depends on a lot of factors, and is a huge grey area. That said, you are almost never going to see a situation where a whole games worth of code is re-sold. It has happened, but it is rare. If anything it's common for an artist or programmer to save / smuggle / remember things they've worked on or are proud of, and to carry that over onto future projects. And tbh I think it should be that way. Especially for artists or programmers, who need to show their work to continue getting jobs. It's a big deal.

Originally posted by Dexter2010
Originally posted by Alders

I don't care about investors, shareholders, or corporate mumbo jumbo. I care about gaming as an art form.

MMO's are no longer being made as an art form and you can thank the suits for that.

Can AAA art be made without $$$? If I'm investing, you bet I'd have input.

We frequently hear of business baddies guilty of great disservices but rarely hear devs admit screw ups. If at all, it only comes out years after the calamity and finger pointing.

If a contract dictates a playable game with X features by Y date, and is not met, what consequences do devs face? I've never heard of funds being reimbursed, I've only seen deadline extensions and additional financial contributions being made to devs; or the occasional shut down.which leaves nothing to show for money spent. Rewards for fuck ups? Devs can resell their progress (paid for by initial publishers) to other publishers, but what do initial investors walk away with?

I think devs get more than enough flack. Indeed many have quite the industry because of it.

If devs promise feature X or Y, and then are told by their overseers to cut features X or Y, they get ALL of the flack for that. Even if it's not their fault. It's not uncommon for them to get threats to them or their family as a result. Even if it wasn't their decision.

That said, a lot of problems come from the highlighted statement you made:

So lets look at this from a similar situation, because I think some perspective is perhaps needed.

Say you're getting your car fixed. You've never built a car, and you don't have the knowledge to fix it yourself. Should you then go into the shop, and tell the mechanic where to put which part? Because that's essentially what is happening.

Some degree of input can be okay, but laid out ahead of time. Going IN to the agreement, not after the project has started. As an artist myself can tell you it is EXTREMELY common to get projects where your client thinks they have good input, and is determined to have you follow it. In nearly every case the end result is a sub-par product. It's because they do not have the same knowledge base you do. They may think they do, but they most definitely do not.

The amount of knowledge in a good dev studio is pretty impressive once you have a real grasp on it. However, to some suits, a dev studio is basically a bunch of kids working in an office w/ crayons. Heck, I've actually been on a project before where we had a walk-in from some potential investors. The suit leading the tour was showing them some of the creative workspaces and literally said 'this is where these guys play with their digital pens to make pretty pictures on the computer'. I damned near walked out on the spot.

Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

I respectfully disagree. "Suits" turned MMOs into a business, instead of entertainment.

When your top priority is "the bottom line", then creativity (aka: risk) goes away.


"Suits", to me, are evil. They suck the life out of what they touch, kind of like a succubus :)

yeah, but the opposite can happen when you let the artists rule the nest. I know several arts organizations, Some large (Hartford Ballet) that went under because there wasn't sufficient oversight.

You might think that a game is ruined by the business side but I wonder with some developers of there would even be a game without someone saying "whoa, there just isn't the money" or "great, you made your game, now how do you suggest we support it without funds".

Of course, where things can go wrong is when a corporation forgets that the artists are required in order to make a project "good".

Well said

Good points all around.

In my experience, though, things work best when there is equal respect in both directions. The 'suits' acknowledge that the artists are there to do more than just wield a stylis. Unfortunately, that is all too uncommon. There are a few studios that come to mind that have found this balance, but many more that haven't.

Many of the producers I've met in particular seem to think they should be making creative decisions. They try to drive the project in one way or another. This is usually disastrous. It usually works best when the creatives are allowed to determine the schedule, and how to make the project a reality; and the suits are there to fund that direction and to make sure that the artists stick to it. And even then, the good ones always save a bit of the budget for if things don't go according to plan.

Because anyone with experience in this field knows that it can happen often. Either unforeseen bugs pop up, or you run into an interesting design problem, and have to change the way part of the game works. It's part of the process, and it's when people don't accommodate for that reality that things tend to go south.

Originally posted by Thebeasttt

The devs are the Villains imo. They are the ones selling their souls to crank out garbage. If every Dev refused to make another empty WoW clone we would have zero problems.

You couldn't pay a top chef enough to serve a can of chef boyardee in their restaurant so why are top developers serving proverbial chef boyardee to us gamers? Have a little dignity.

Lol. If only life were that simple.

Often the choice is 'make this sub par game', or don't pay your bills. Don't eat, don't provide for your family. Very few people have the luxury to make the choice you are describing. Especially if we're looking at AAA game budgets. Sadly, game design is one of those disciplines that everyone thinks they can do. It's rarely valued properly. As a result, it's rare that a dev would have the same amount of clout as a 5 star chef.

Originally posted by Dexter2010

Everyone paints financial powers as evil; claims are made that they stifle innovation and manipulate or even limit creativity.  What people overlook is, they drive progress and ensure results.  They act as anchors to keep devs grounded and realistic.  With the popularity of ks rising, devs continue to assert that corporate suits act as obstacles to realizing their dreams, while the public further condemns them as they lose themselves in exaggerated promises of the impossible being attainable. 

**snip for length**

Investors and publishers should be considered from a different perspective rather than condemned as villains.  Devs and gamers need to acknowledge games for the business enterprises that they really are.  People don’t do things for free, not the creative minds behind endeavors, nor the programmers that realize visions.  To believe otherwise would be naïve.

First, let me just say that painting anything as 'evil' or 'the villain' tends to be from a very narrow / closed mindset. Very few things are that black & white.

That said, if you want to imply that 'suits' (aka publishers & financiers) don't have a negative impact on games (and really most creative endeavors), then you are very much mistaken.

The bottom line of a publisher / financier is different from the bottom line of a good developer. Most publishers / financiers want a game to be profitable. They don't necessarily care if the game is good, just that it makes money. That's how business works. Developers, on the other hand, want to make a good game. They want to try out new and interesting mechanics, explore new ideas. It is their reputation and careers that get dragged through the mud when a suit pulls the plug, or does not give them an appropriate deadline.

- Now, this does go back to the 'nothing is black & white' statement. These are all people, and people make mistakes. The fault can often lie on both sides of the isle. Moving on:

The reality of the situation becomes as follows:

The larger the budget of the project, the more likely it is that the financiers (via the publishers) are going to drive the direction of parts of the game. It no longer becomes an issue of 'you had X dollars, and spent them all'. It becomes a situation of 'you want to do this, but we need you to do this instead, because that's what sells'. This happens quite often, especially at larger studios.

Remember:

Business thrives with the known, with taking minimal / calculated risks.

Creativity thrives with the unknown, with exploring new ideas and taking risks.

They are inherently at odds, but creativity has value (even though it often gets overlooked).

What sells copies, sadly is not paralleled to what makes for a good video game. When you have a businessman overseeing a creative project they will almost always opt for the option that yields the most revenue, instead of the option that yields less revenue but a superior game.

Originally posted by Cloudborn

Hello guys, I was wondering if you would be able to help me out with choosing an MMO to play?

 

So basically I have been looking for an MMO to play for quite a while. I'm currently waiting for Skyforge but I need something to occupy me in the mean time. I have played WoW, Rift, Lineage 2, Guild Wars 2, Wildstar, SWTOR, Ragnarok Online, and others that I never really got in to. 

What I'm mainly looking for is something visually pleasing. I loved GW2's, Wildstar's and Rifts graphics. They were all great games, but Wildstar lacked people and Guild Wars 2 had no end game. I'm looking for something that I can really spend quite some hours on. As a university students I find myself with quite a bit of free time. 

So if any of you could offer me any suggestions that would be great! Thank you!

If your big thing is endgame, and you dont mind spending money, I'd recommend looking at FFXIV:ARR. The game looks great, it's based on the standard raid / themepark, and while the combat is kinda simple, if you're used to games like WoW / Wildstar it will still be fun. It's arguably one of the better themeparks on the market currently for PvE endgame.

If you're looking for something else I can give other recommendations w/ more info.

Originally posted by Eronakis
Originally posted by Dullahan
Originally posted by silverreign
**snip for length**

Utility.  There needs to be more of it.  As things are currently, its all about who tank, heals or does dps the hardest.  There needs to be more reliance on specific class utilities so everyone can't do everything alone.  Can your rogue pick locks or sense traps?  Well put some traps in that actually matter.  Does the fight require only dps, or does ranged dps, mobility or melee combat excel in certain circumstances.  Does the fight require healers that specialize in potent single target heals, area effect heals, or another type of healing or curing?  These are the kinds of things that are largely missing, or developers are simply allowing players to circumvent these challenges by allowing nearly any class to fill a certain role and by either respeccing ore rerolling.  Whether you like it or not, its had a massive negative impact on this genre.

Another spot on post. You get it. I think it's time to bring back support classes as well. Ones that focus on CC, Buffing and Debuffing for an example. However, that would also entail a more 'forced" grouping game with grouping content, which I am all for.

The class design stratagem is more or less how can my role of the class I am currently playing function in damage or mitigation. There is no themed towards each class. If I am playing a Wizard I want to feel like I am playing a Wizard more than doing DPS. Same with being a Necromancer. There should be other utility or other immersive things you can do as a class rather than just combat.

If you haven't played it yet, I would suggest checking out Guild Wars 1.

Anet has a fairly uncommon approach to class dynamics when it comes to MMORPGs. Most MMOs are archetype based, and each archetype is very cookie-cutter. GW1 has archetypes, but the actual combat is based more on a 'toolbox' mentallity, rather than an 'archetype' mentallity.

How this translates is that each class has a certain 'feel' to it, that fits w/ their archetype. However, their skills can be mix-matched to handle a wide variety of scenarios & problems. Furthermore 'status effects' are a big thing in that game. Damage isn't just damage, utility isn't just utility, control isn't just control. There's a lot of synergies and intricacies there that separate the good players from the bad. For example you could be a necro / mesmer and hex or curse people to inflict harm or hinder them. Other people on your team might also have abilities that play off of hexes and curses to do secondary effects. Conversely, the enemy team's healers might be using abilities that become more potent if used on a hexed / cursed ally.

There are many many examples of such dynamics, and is one of the reasons the combat has so much depth to it. You can't just place a bunch of DoTs on a target and say 'okay i'm doing DPS!', the type of effect you use is crucial, and if you use too many of the same effect, it can be very easily countered.

Whelp, Sword Art Online is hardly a new concept, and definitely not a template for an actual, functioning, MMORPG.

As others have pointed out SAO is basically the same as Log Horizon & .hack, both of which do a better job with the concept. It was also made pretty clear by season 2 of SAO that it's a show that is struggling to find content to keep it going. But back to the topic at hand:

There are numerous reasons why SAO couldn't work as a template for an MMO. For one, it's based around 1 guy who is superior to everyone else. A concept that works great in single player games & movies, not so much in MMOs. Indeed many of the MMOs that have tried this have faced challenges as a result.

Things like going on a random epic quest to collect a sword that is significantly better than everything else in the game, and can only be picked up once. Ya, that stuff cannot happen in a multiplayer game. Furthermore the whole permadeath thing... Many games struggle enough to get players with harsh death penalties. Afaik there has been only one? game that tried permadeath. And it failed miserably. In fact, after the first part of SAO, permadeath stops being a theme. And before you use the last season as an example, watch the whole thing. I don't wanna give any spoilers.

The only concept that is an idea worth running with is the non-combat specialization one. it's been done successfully in the past. There are players that enjoy that sort of thing, and it would actually benefit a game designed for such a thing.

- As for leaving things up to mystery, I do agree with that to an extent, but again: .hack and log horizon are waaay better examples of that. And indeed, there is only so much you can do w/ that, given datamining + internet fansites.

Originally posted by Eronakis
Originally posted by DMKano
Originally posted by Eronakis
Originally posted by DMKano

The most fun games are the ones that have class imbalance.

Perfect balance = perfectly boring

Just my 2c

Lol read the thread before you comment. You're obviously also misled. 

Read my edit.

Archetype balance = bad design

Make players *believe* that there is balance - but behind scenes have a purposful imbalance - and then shift that imbalance to other classes and nerf strong classes every 2-3 months.

This formula works - it introduces lots of drama too, and people love drama

 

Bad Design because why? I would really like to know the details of why you think it's bad design. I would argue that class imbalance is because of bad design.

The problem w/ archetype design is that it's often 'too simple'. I wouldn't call it 'bad design', because it's not. However, it does tend to lead to very stale class dynamics.

That said, if you look at the top MOBAs they are all based around archetypes. However, they are not based around trinity (tank-dps-healer), and instead of a more complex archetype design. They also have layered archetypes (i.e. maybe this character is a ranged magical assassin). He fits a series of roles, and is also clearly defined, but because there are layers to it those can be combined in various ways.

When it comes to MMOs, however, the class dynamics tend to be over simplified, because there is so much packed into one game. Games that focus entirely on class dynamics spend years tweaking / perfecting it, and MMOs have to worry about many other things on top of class balance. As such, it tends to be far too difficult to keep a complex class dynamic balanced in an MMO. I know GW1 for example, had a nightmare with balancing, though they did a fairly good job w/ it overall.

Originally posted by Pepeq
Originally posted by aesperus
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by DMKano

If people would just cut the top bar in half - they wouldn't even care about that epic feeling

He's talking about  the old outcome, which matches his expectation. Based on that, if we follow this image out another step, the halved outcome bar will eventually become the new expectation that now has to be halved again after the outcome can't match it anymore. I wonder where that will lead............

It only needs to have a half-life if you give it one.

While it makes sense to have a certain amount of expectations for our games, we tend to go way overboard with them. This doesn't happen if we approach our games from a perspective of discovery, rather from a perspective of comparison / evaluation.

Most of these problems come from us measuring new games to a mental shopping list we've developed based on how we idealize our favorite older game(s). We stop treating them like new experiences, and instead as subsequent versions of older ones. This had some weight when we were still getting overwhelmed by WoW Clones, but that's not really the case anymore.

Another issue here is, you used to have to wait for a game to hit the shelves before you knew anything at all about it.  Now you know just about everything there is to know about a game long before it officially goes live.  Too much information, too little discovery = burst bubble every time.

Very true. Not only that, but the information available usually serves to exaggerate people's expectations. What tends to happen is people hear about a feature, and instead of thinking about it in practical terms 'okay, that the game is probably going to work this way, or play that way'; they think about it in imagined ones. 'Oh wow, the game's going to have X feature!! What could that possibly mean!?! Maybe it's this, or this, or that!'

Which would be fine, except then people get upset if it doesn't completely match what they imagined, and then the bubble bursts even more extremely.

Originally posted by Dullahan
Originally posted by silverreign


Originally posted by Dullahan
I made a lengthy post on this topic some time ago, I may have to search for it.

**snip for length**

i agree. they do need to make classes have more meaning. in chat you just see groups lookin for a dps. i would like to see groups lookin for a specific dps cus its special skills are needed
 

Utility.  There needs to be more of it.  As things are currently, its all about who tank, heals or does dps the hardest.  There needs to be more reliance on specific class utilities so everyone can't do everything alone.  Can your rogue pick locks or sense traps?  Well put some traps in that actually matter.  Does the fight require only dps, or does ranged dps, mobility or melee combat excel in certain circumstances.  Does the fight require healers that specialize in potent single target heals, area effect heals, or another type of healing or curing?  These are the kinds of things that are largely missing, or developers are simply allowing players to circumvent these challenges by allowing nearly any class to fill a certain role and by either respeccing ore rerolling.  Whether you like it or not, its had a massive negative impact on this genre.

A lot of very good points.

1) There definitely needs to be more class-based dungeon environmental mechanics. Having your party makeup determine how you can progress through a dungeon is not only a really interesting idea, but it also adds depth to your choices.

2) You're absolutely right about utility. There does need to be a lot more of it.

However, both concepts have been tried before. Numerous times. The downside to both is that it requires a lot more work on the part of the designers, and more thinking on the part of the gamer. Unfortunately, while the first problem is easily handled, the 2nd one is another matter entirely. Too many people play games currently on autopilot. Too many people have become comfortable playing games without needing to use their brains or be challenged. With having to think about a minimal amount of things, and just kinda press buttons. The games that try to offer more of a challenge, and are more demanding on the player, tend to be way less popular. And there's a reason for that.

Originally posted by gervaise1
Originally posted by aesperus
Originally posted by BailoPan15
Originally posted by Nemesis7884
what mmo's can learn from dai is cross class combos...

Gw2 does that. 

So does FFXI, and Everquest 2. Lol.

I'm amazed more MMOs haven't adopted these systems, because they are a lot of fun.

And CoH and pen&paper D&D and others....

What, imo, will be interesting is to see how EA take DA:I forward (assuming they do). Games can / do cost a lot to make and having a robust business model to facilitate cost recovery is pivotal. How will DA:I fare going forward?

Indeed, there were a few games I left out (LotRO is also on that list, as the poster above you pointed out ^^).

I was honestly surprised at how well DA:I turned out. It's no secret that EA has a long history of ruining good game IPs. Imho DA:I is easily better than DA2, and in many ways I would put it above DA:O (though there are definitely certain aspects DA:O did better). That said I just don't have any faith in EA atm. There is not a single IP they've acquired that they haven't ruined, except for I guess DA:I. I don't get the feeling EA is why DA:I was as good as it was. I get more of a feeling that Bioware managed to hold them off from pushing stupid decisions. But I didn't work on the game, so I dunno. Time will tell I guess.

Originally posted by angerbeaver
I don't know how Trademarks work but I would assume the first come, first serve must be in place unless Blizzard can throw money at them (other developer or the TM people)

That's likely what is going to have happen.

It'll be amusing to see what happens if that doesn't work. From what I saw at Blizzcon, Overwatch isn't just a logo at this point. They've got entire cinematics talking about it, it's lore, and how it ties into what the game is about. if they had to go back in redo all that content that would be fairly expensive.

Sounds like someone made a very costly amateurish mistake. I would hate to be that person right now. I'm not sure which would be worse, knowing I made a mistake that dumb, or having to explain it to a bunch of pissed off people.

Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by DMKano

If people would just cut the top bar in half - they wouldn't even care about that epic feeling

He's talking about  the old outcome, which matches his expectation. Based on that, if we follow this image out another step, the halved outcome bar will eventually become the new expectation that now has to be halved again after the outcome can't match it anymore. I wonder where that will lead............

It only needs to have a half-life if you give it one.

While it makes sense to have a certain amount of expectations for our games, we tend to go way overboard with them. This doesn't happen if we approach our games from a perspective of discovery, rather from a perspective of comparison / evaluation.

Most of these problems come from us measuring new games to a mental shopping list we've developed based on how we idealize our favorite older game(s). We stop treating them like new experiences, and instead as subsequent versions of older ones. This had some weight when we were still getting overwhelmed by WoW Clones, but that's not really the case anymore.

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