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All Posts by aesperus

All Posts by aesperus

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5136 posts found

People are right about scoreboards being a problem, but they aren't the whole problem. You can still have good RvR with scoreboards. However 'realm pride' is a huge part of what made RvR in DAoC so fun, and is proving to be a very difficult thing to recapture.

In the case of ESO, one of the biggest problems are fluid campaigns, as well as being able to roll characters on every faction. Simply put, there really isn't anything that punishes a player for giving up. Simply switch characters to the winning team and cash in. In order to make people want to fight, they need to feel like there is something worth fighting for. In most cases this defaults to a 'reward', but what's also missing is the part where you fight to prevent your side from losing something important. There's just not enough gravity to the pvp atm. There are some good fights, but after a while it just feels shallow.

RvR needs to have a sense of permanence and meaningful choice to succeed. Cyrodiil is lacking on both atm.

Originally posted by Flyte27
Originally posted by aesperus
**snipped for length**

This is actually not true.

Healing and DPS generated more threat then the tanks taunt ability.

People besides the tank got agro quite a bit.

For some reason people seem to make it appear easy to maintain agro on the tank in the old system.  For certain classes in World of Warcraft that was the case with AOE taunts and things of that nature.  EQ didn't have AOE taunts aside from the damage abilities you had.  The warrior didn't even have an AOE damage ability.  It was all single target DPS.

From the game mechanics you describe they would all work fine in a trinity system.

In a trinity system there are also hybrids.  EQ have quite a few of them.

All you described could happen in a trinity system.

Sigh... please re read the post I made.

Taunt is a 'snap' aggro ability. Not the primary mechanic for maintaining aggro as a tank. Never has been. It puts you at the top of the threat list for 'X' seconds, and that's about it. Since threat is constantly going up as the fighting drags on, DPS & heals can absolutely surpass that number if the tank isn't on their game.

Tanks primarily maintain aggro through a stat (threat, hate, emnity, etc.) which artificially makes their attacks more significant than they actually are. It basically games the system into treating an attack that does 20 damage like it's doing 200 damage.

This is necessary, because you can't have a class with ma health & armor, doing as much damage as a DPS class, or as much healing as a traditional healer. That would obviously be OP. However, if you had mob AI attack targets based on the level of danger to the mobs survival, instead of an arbritrary number (threat), then you're DPS and healers would be dead at the start of every fight. It wouldn't be fun.

That's the whole point of the trinity system. It all boils down to the 3 specialized roles necessary to manage threat based on the current standard system. Tank (they literally control the threat), Healer (they make sure the tanks dont die), DPS (they end the fights and control the pacing).

- This doesn't mean hybrids can't exist, but you may notice that (in a trinity game) the hybrids are a blend of those specialized roles. They are still based around those same basic mechanics.

EQ, however, is a bad example. You have to keep in mind that EQ was not designed to be a 'trinity game'. It was made during the inception of the MMO. They were putting whatever they could think of into that game, and discovering the outcome. The whole concept of trinity came later, when the players (not the devs) figured out the system that was being used, and realized the most efficient way to exploit that said system. The players realized that, while you had all these cool hybrid classes, if you ignored that and took the strongest ones, you'd get the best outcome. By the time EQ2 was released, you could see the shift.

There's a reason that you have to go back that far to show examples of such hybridization. Not to mention that back then, you also had a 4th role (controller), because games still had classes with potential CC.

Originally posted by Malabooga
Originally posted by aesperus
**snipped for length**

Well if you dwell into a conspiracy theore, ANet named it "taunt" to get more "trinity" players into the game under the assumption you can actually tank now ;)

And thats for the rest, i agree, the best way to improve the trinity is to remove tank and heal role and make everyone possible tank or healer or dps or ccer depending on ecounter/situation.

But thats mosty already done now by GW2 so i would say its already improved, ANet just need to improve AI and encounter design (as they have been doing ever since Teq) and thats pretty much it.

No offense, but I feel you're simultaneously getting, and missing my point completely, lol.

First, I'm not one for conspiracy theories, but you aren't wrong about Anet. One of the biggest challenges of GW2 is it's stuck in a massive catch-22. Trinity mechanics are so common that everyone has grown to expect them in every game. There are still a majority of players who believe that trinity mechanics are the ONLY way to make a game, even though that's simply not true. As such they are forced to implement things to the game (like hearts & taunt) which are familiar to trinity players. However, the side effect of this is that it also confuses a lot of players into thinking it's some kind of failed trinity.

Getting off the subject of that game:

if you remove the roles of tank & healer, and give them to everyone (which has been done), you DON'T have a trinity anymore. Remember, a trinity is a system based around 'specialized' roles. When you allow each class to do a bit of everything, they stop being specialized. Thus, no trinity.

Now, this doesn't mean you can't have interesting combat mechanics, or classes that feel distinct, or classes that are better at certain roles. It just means that the result cannot be classified as a trinity.

Originally posted by Eronakis
Has anyone actually read the OP other than like 2 people? I feel like this thread is getting derailed. Just because I mentioned Gw2 doesn't mean the thread is about Gw2. I used it as an example. Unless the OP is confusing. If so please let me know so I can figure out a better way to convey the idea behind the intention of the thread...

Yes, we have (at least most of us).

The reason GW2 keeps getting mentioned, is because it's a damned good example.

And when it comes to combat design in MMORPGs, it's about the only example people all seem to be familiar with. Trinity mechanics are so predominate in this genre that it is very hard to point to a non-trinity game that isn't Eve, or an FPS. And even then, there's a very high chance half the people on this site won't have a clue what game you're talking about.

Originally posted by Flyte27
Originally posted by aesperus

He said it right, the defining element of the trinity is the threat table, not taunt.

GW2 has much more dynamic threat than trinity games, which it seems more chaotic to people who are used to the standard trinity. In trinity games threat is a linear function. Everything builds X threat, and the person w/ the highest number 'wins'.

In GW2, for example, threat is weighted off a set of actions. Each player has a number of criteria that gets measured, and each criteria counts for a certain amount of 'threat'. Things like ressing, current HP, armor, damage output, distance to the enemy, etc. all factor into this. By understanding how this works, better players actually know how to manipulate the threat, not unlike how good DPSers know how to drop their threat lvls if the tank is struggling. The big difference is that, unlike trinity games, this role can be played by anyone.

- Don't understimate the taunt mechanic either. It's correct that it is quite a bit different from the standard trinity, however such a mechanic exists in most MOBAs currently, and it is strong. Depending on the implementation of it, it's usually more than just 'snap aggro' as you'd see in say, world of warcraft. Taunt, when used as  CC, is also often a repositioning tool.

It's one thing to say 'you're forced to target me' (standard trinity taunt), it's an entirely different thing to have a skill that means 'you're forced to target me AND move towards me'. Such abilities are some of the most deadly in games of skill. Not only do they disable, but they can force your target to be out of position, which a competent player can translate into an easy kill.

It seems to me you could apply the same agro mechanics to a trinity game.  Most of the things you mentioned about how the agro works depend on not having a trinity in place.

For instance having threat based on armor was already done in old trinity games I believe and distance to the enemy would also work fine in a trinity setup.  Damage was already the main factor in agro so that's not an issue.

There is no snap agro in trinity games, but if you get the highest threat the mob will run after you (which similar).  Again this mechanic could be used in a trinity game.

I believe any mechanic that could be used in a non trinity game could be used in a trinity game.  The only difference is you have more specialized classes which adds to the strategy.

You can still have strategy in non trinity games, but it would require something akin to real life strategies like the romans forming a shield wall and stabbing with spears.  You generally don't see that in a game though.  It would probably become stale pretty quickly as people would find the counter to everything.

Except that you can't.

The whole concept of the trinity is based around the 3 most fundamental specialized roles you can have, while still having functional group combat. One of those roles is that of 'threat management'. By removing that, and instead making threat a combination of environmental & stat factors, of which everyone is responsible, you remove one of those roles. As such, by definition, it is no longer a trinity (let alone 'the' trinity). In GW2's case, healing is also a group effort, which removes yet another specialized role. This is why most trinity minded people claim GW2 is 'everyone is a DPS', which is a half-truth at best.

If you look at any one of those threat criteria individually, then yes, they could be implemented in a trinity game. However, that's not how they work. They work in tandum with eachother (sticking w/ the GW2 example for this). For example, you can have a guardian with the highest armor, and lowest health in the group, but he can lose aggro to a DPS who's ressing a teammate. Or to support that's closer to the boss than he is. If you tried to implement the same mechanics in a trinity game, then what would the tank do? Everyone at this point is capable of getting, and keeping aggro. And there are no real class mechanics that can change that fact. It all comes down to the situational awareness of each individual player.

- In every trinity game released, by contrast, threat is linear. Everyone is working off the same threat scale, and this number is easily tracked in many of these games. Most of these games DO have snap aggro (taunt, provoke, etc.) which provides a temporary edge on the threat table. For example in FFXIV:ARR, there's a skill tanks get which automatically puts them at the top of the threat table. If someone surpasses that number as soon as the skill is used, the skill is wasted. But for that brief second, the tank has a chance to get back on top.

Originally posted by Malabooga
Originally posted by fs23otm
Originally posted by Malabooga
Originally posted by fs23otm

OP let me point out also.

GW2 did away with the tank and healer role. It basically said EVER man for yourself. While you can gear a Guardian for suvivability, it is no where near "tanking". 

A gear and spec'ed ELE can heal a group pretty well, but not in the tradition sense. 

However, even ANET see's a problem with this... and in the expansion HOT will give people a TAUNT. 

This proves that agro management is a vital part of group combat. 

Taunt is just a name for a skill. Another control skill.

Its not trinity like "taunt".

GW2: Taunt is an effect that will force the taunted player to run at their target with their skill bar locked, minus stunbreakers, and only use their autoattack skill to attack

Trinity like taunt does just that... makes you focus on the player for a defined amount of time. 

The real difference lies in the threat table... 

Snap Agro has always been about getting attention on demand... it is what occurs after that that defines it. If your snap agro puts you at the top, and keeps you there... then tanking becomes nothing more then push X button on cooldown.

If snap agro is a temp buff, and your DPS doesn;t adjust, then when the "time period" stops, you may not be at the top.. and lose agro again. This is how Agro management should be, this not only seperates good tanks from bad, but also good dps from bad DPS. 

Oh shoot, yes, thats the defining element of trinity "taunt"

Its no different (i would say its even worse) than fear, knockdown, stun and paralyze in GW2.

He said it right, the defining element of the trinity is the threat table, not taunt.

GW2 has much more dynamic threat than trinity games, which it seems more chaotic to people who are used to the standard trinity. In trinity games threat is a linear function. Everything builds X threat, and the person w/ the highest number 'wins'.

In GW2, for example, threat is weighted off a set of actions. Each player has a number of criteria that gets measured, and each criteria counts for a certain amount of 'threat'. Things like ressing, current HP, armor, damage output, distance to the enemy, etc. all factor into this. By understanding how this works, better players actually know how to manipulate the threat, not unlike how good DPSers know how to drop their threat lvls if the tank is struggling. The big difference is that, unlike trinity games, this role can be played by anyone.

- Don't understimate the taunt mechanic either. It's correct that it is quite a bit different from the standard trinity, however such a mechanic exists in most MOBAs currently, and it is strong. Depending on the implementation of it, it's usually more than just 'snap aggro' as you'd see in say, world of warcraft. Taunt, when used as  CC, is also often a repositioning tool.

It's one thing to say 'you're forced to target me' (standard trinity taunt), it's an entirely different thing to have a skill that means 'you're forced to target me AND move towards me'. Such abilities are some of the most deadly in games of skill. Not only do they disable, but they can force your target to be out of position, which a competent player can translate into an easy kill.

The problem is that the trinity system exists because of the classic / most basic AI that comes with your standard threat mechanics. It is because of this that such threat (aggro) defines such a system.

By changing the way threat works, you are essentially creating a 'non-trinity' game, whether you realize this or not. For example, this is exactly what GW2 has done. GW2 has all standard roles that are present in trinity games, but it's the lack of dedicated roles and more importantly, the lack of dedicated threat that makes the combat system so much different.

To better understand this, you need to look back at how the trinity came to be. While the threat mechanics for most of these games have remained mostly unchanged for the past 20-30years, how we define the roles within this same system has. The trinity wasn't a thing during the conception of Everquest. It became a thing, from players figuring out the most efficient composition to tackle the content at the time.

The devs created a bunch of classes based off D&D, with a multitude of different options and choices. Then the playerbase took those options, and narrowed them down into the most beneficial and went w/ those.

Subsequent games saw this, and emulated it. Many games have tried to offer more choice within the trinity system, but it always comes down to 'what's the best tank, the best healer, the best DPS'. Some games do a better job of adding some variance into this equation, but many more fail.

The way around this is not to reinvent the same archaic system. It's to try and make new systems that allow for more complex gameplay, that aren't based around speed farming, and more about problem solving. The trinity doesn't really allow for that, it's goal is to simplify combat into the most basic components, to allow for the most accessible (easy to understand) gameplay.

I'm sure it will happen, depending on your view of games like H1Z1 it's already happened.

The thing is, the traditional take on what constitutes an MMO is changing, and will continue to change.

A feature like 'no maps' is honestly comparatively niche. Most people don't like feel lost / hopeless in a video game. Which is why such features became so popular in the first place.

Personally I'd love to see more games get away from all the handholding & coddling, and shift gears to design choices that challenge players more, and reward people for thinking, coming up with unique strategies, and doing things that are actually spectacular, instead of just pressing the X button.

Originally posted by NightHaveN
And STO. 3 ships where you can be:

dps - tactical
Cc, debuff, cleanse, regen shields - science
Tank - engineer
Heal - engineer (different build)

So that one goes beyond the trinity with the full 4 roles, even if only have 3 classes.

Funnily enough, what you're describing is actually where the trinity came from (the classic trinity in a way, though it is 4 roles not 3).

Once WoW released, however, games stopped providing controller classes. Thus giving birth to the typical 3-class roles.

What the trinity is superior at, is providing a combat experience for people who want familiar roles, that they don't have to think much about. That might sound harsh, but it's absolutely true.

What the trinity doesn't do is add depth to combat (in fact it actively seeks to do the exact opposite), it doesn't add complexity, and it only adds the bare minimum of strategy.

While I won't argue that (when it comes to MMOs) many of the newer games trying to break away from the trinity mold haven't done the best job of it; this doesn't automatically mean that the trinity model is the only option. An opinion which the OP (and many others) seems to default to.

There are games without trinities that have amazing combat. People like to point to GW2 as a a failed experiment, but it's ironically not. The biggest problem w/ GW2 is that much of the AI from launch was done poorly (which you cannot have in non-trinity games). With the newer content they've actively been fixing this one step at a time, and the game actually is having more varied boss encounters, with mechanics that require a multitude of specs, strategies, and approaches to beat.

And there in lies the problem and main difference between the two. The trinity is by far the easiest model to implement. It's about as simplistic as you can possibly get, which means that designers don't really have to flex their brain as much to get a functional trinity system in play. Non-trinity models are much less tread ground. There's a lot more room for experimentation, but there's also a lot more room for error. It's much easier to screw up a non-trinity game than it is to ruin a trinity one.

Imho, I prefer non-trinity models. They're still improving sure, but they add more depth to the combat. There's a lot more potential for interesting fights, and they force you to think and use your imagination more. All things I look for in games I play. I like using my brain when I play, I don't like games that have you unplug and play in a semi-coma state of satisfaction.

Originally posted by DevilSeph

Good Old Blizzard North, we had SC1, Warcraft 3, D2 than they proved that they can make MMO-s like vanilla WoW.

More than 10 years passed and they let us down!  by now we should have gotten some Diablo mmo or SC mmo but all we got is some card games, some pandas and murlocks, huge fail d3 and some cheap ass over simplified anoying moba called hots ( murlock hero included which usually is troll pick to loose...)

Where is our SC mmo :(

You do realize that the Blizzard of today is NOT that same Blizzard from back then. It's been Blizzard-Activision for a while now, a merger, and most of that original talent that made those classic games have since moved on to other studios and projects.

They've done a good job milking off those past successes, but they just aren't the same company.

Originally posted by Encephalitis
Originally posted by rodingo
Originally posted by Magiknight
Originally posted by Amjoco
Until I have less than 20 mmorpgs to choose from I'm not even going to read the article. As it is, there are so many good choices out there sometimes I wonder where all this gloom and despair is coming from. Dead? nah

The article says they are dying because there are so many.  One generic one after the next. A few to choose from would be nice.

If thats the case, then I guess cars, food, music, and art is dying since there is so much variety.  I mean, this one article writer says so, so it must be true... 

it's funny that you chose the 4 most cookie cutter genres of blatant homogenization to refute the OP's post that, due to massive reincarnation of the exact same thing, clearly it means the genre is fully fledged and functional and in no way sitting on a bubble waiting to be popped.

Homogenized =/= dead. In all 4 cases you still have custom / creative works that break the mold. What you're describing is the natural progression ALL creative mediums go through throughout history.

Whenever a new medium is created, it gains in popularity. When there's enough interest, it becomes profitable. When it becomes profitable, business / industry starts getting involved / interested. Once that happens, you have people who try and formulize what's successful. It's a contradiction in many ways, but it's what businesses do. You don't maintain profits by primarily taking uncalculated risks. However, you need to take risks if you want to get an edge.

Which is why typically smaller / independant interests who can afford the risks and need the edge do so, and more established / larger parties typically don't. Cars have custom builders and shows, food has countless independent restaurants / chefs / recipes / etc., music has self-published artists, and traditional art has independent shows / exhibits / etc. Yes, they are all dominated by old-hat business ventures, but they've been around long enough & popular enough to warrant such. It doesn't stop the people in those perspective industries from getting around that aspect of each one, and as a result each of those have evolved over time.

Originally posted by Magiknight

http://www.techradar.com/us/news/gaming/is-the-mmorpg-on-the-verge-of-extinction--1289503

 

He sums it up.  

The author of that article seems to have trouble holding on to an actual point. He also seems to forget his opening point somewhere mid article.

The entire thing sums up to logic based around the stance that: 'MMOs are dying because too many of the same big budget clones are being made, and may be dead because those same big budget clones aren't being made anymore'

Seriously? Yes MMO are changing, and yes MMOs as we have grown to know them may be largely gone, but that's not exactly the same as dead. There are two aspects of that article that actually hold water.

1) The standard formula needs to change. (and to a large extent it IS changing)

2) Funding for western MMOs is drying up. (Which is a bad sign true)

On the first point, this is mostly an indicator of change in the genre. The MMOs of tomorrow probably won't look the same as those of the past 10 years. The change is needed, we've just been plugging our ears and putting it off. Some may hate it, but it's no less necessary.

On the second point, this isn't just an indication of MMOs. Flagpole projects in general are lowering in number. This is true of a lot of games, movies, etc. That doesn't mean we are done seeing blockbuster hits. It just means that the bubble has bursted. We were making way too many of them, and way too many that were sub-par. When you ride that high to the peak of a bubble, everything on the way down seems like 'we're doomed!'. Not so, it's the natural course of how these sorts of things go.

You can have endless progression and funding. The party has to stop at some point, and someone's gotta take care of the mess.

Originally posted by Rusque

Simple, dungeons shouldn't be loot pinatas.

Dungeons should be destinations. They should be journeys unto themselves. They've been "gamified" and purpose built for loot acquisition instead of being a place to get lost in. Legend of Grimrock. It's a dungeon crawl, it's what a dungeon is supposed to be, not 3 rooms + 4 hallways.

There's plenty of games with short'n'sweet dungeon content, let's see some really long dungeons.

This is the problems dungeons have in online games specifically, though. In MMOs especially they are forced to walk a tightrope of conflicting expectations. They must be rewarding, but playable. They must be fun, challenging, but not too hard. They must be short enough that they can be done in a single play session, but long enough that they feel like an epic journey.

Essentially the expectations from dungeons have gotten to a point where people want to basically experience Dark Souls, in a period of an hour or two. And that just doesn't work. And as soon as you add loot (the reward) into the equation it gets even more problematic. Because people don't want to spend year(s) grinding to maybe get an item from a given dungeon. They want to feel rewarded for their time, but as soon as the rewards become significant enough people WILL farm them.

EQ/EQ2/Vanguard had some great dungeons, but that was a very different time back then. When it comes to single player / multiplayer dungeon crawlers, I think we can still have those older epic dungeons. When it comes to MMOs, I think the best we can expect would be something like what GW1 had. Long elaborate dungeons with versatile rewards (essentially crafting mats), and the option to do as much or as little of the dungeon as you could handle at a given time, but still be rewarded along the way. Kind of like in dark souls, how the whole game is basically one giant dungeon, but there are pleanty of places for you to stop and pickup where you left off later. I.E. checkpoints.

In a lot of ways I'd agree that most newer dungeons are too bitesized, and they should be made more elaborate again. However, there needs to be a middle ground. If they do get a lot larger, there needs to be break points for people that don't punish people for taking a break from the game, or not being able to play on a certain day.

Originally posted by observer
Originally posted by Telondariel

EQ2 has great dungeon design.  Granted, it was better 5+ years ago, but it is still a game that did it right.

 

I think a compiled list from this thread should be given to ANET to help improve what GW2 offers:  the worst dungeon design I've ever seen.  Not that they would listen to the community on anything truly relevant, but it's always a feel good move to try.

 

I wouldn't call it the worst design ever.  It's their A.I. that is really terrible.  The layouts and different paths are pretty good.  

I've got to second this.

And while a year ago I might agree with Telo on them not listening to the playerbase, given the recent developments with HoT, it seems like the opposite is true. The reason they have appeared to be ignoring their players seems to be because they were taking that feedback and making it into an expansion overhaul of the game. And indeed many of the big complaints I've been seeing addressed one by one.

They hired a raid designer to make better boss mechanics, and the new dungeon (aetherblade) is way better than most of the older ones, but it's too hard to really PUG. The most important change being that they're correcting the 'tank & spank' strats most current bosses have from being able to cheese the bad AI. And it makes a huge difference.

No offense, but I think Jason is missing a lot of obvious facts. Both about the game, and also about his examples.

I.E. in LotR the reason why they couldn't just fly eagles into mount doom was pretty well represented. There was an army there of 10s, 100s of thousands. They weren't all limited to hand-to-hand land-based combat. Plus there are the ring wraiths to deal with. Not to mention sauron / saruman. Which is partially why there is this long drawn-out story to deal with each threat as it came. In a war, any war, it is fairly rare that you use your best weapon straight away. There are too many risks involved with doing so. It can be destroyed (and you lose your advantage), it gives the enemy time to figure out a counter-strategy (and you lose your advantage), you're unlikely to have a decent follow-up strat (which generally means you lose the war), etc.

GW2 is kind of similar to this. Let's not forget the army of dragon's Zhaitan had at his disposal. You saw many of them at the end of the personal story. You don't just send a bunch of airships towards that without laying down some ground work first. Not to mention the whole part of the story were they talk about needing to actually build all those airships and mega lasers, and need time to stall so they can finish. The game doesn't start with all that stuff existing. It's all experiments that the pact was working on throughout the story, with them succeeding towards the end.

That stuff out of the way, we already know there will be no 'Sylvari vs. all' WvW. Maybe they could have a fun mini-event, similar to the PvP branded event they had around beta, but I don't see much else on that front.

Keep this in mind. We KNOW that not all sylvari are evil. It doesn't make sense to then force all PC sylvari to automatically be mordem monsters. We also KNOW that the nightmare court are primarily those influenced by the dragon, and that those who follow ventari's teachings have turned away from mordrem's influence. That right there paves a clear path for who is going to be evil and who isn't. We have some of the senior members of the Sylvari, the PC players, and maybe a few of the younger members. While all of the nightmare court, and many of the younger sylvari are likely to be mordem in the expansion.

- That said the question is still a good one. And it makes for a very interesting design challenge.

How do you create that kind of environment (full of prejudice & mistrust) without alienating sylvari players. Will they have vendors that refuse to sell to sylvari? Will it just be dialogue and vague insults? If they don't change the experience for PC syvari players, will it ruin the whole theme they've set for this new expansion? Will they just phone it in and solve the problem within the first few hours of storyline? All very good questions. And I hope that Anet is much more clever than the rest of us in this manner (well, and also specializations). Because this is one design problem I honestly don't have a great answer for. Not without placing a negative impact on sylvari players. I'm looking forward to seeing what Anet's solution is.

Originally posted by Horusra
Originally posted by Wizardry
Originally posted by Ozmodan
What do you need a mount in a MOBA for?

The real truth?Blizzard is all about marketing their KNOWN money makers.They rehash the WOW ideas over and over in many games.Mounts are one of the bigger reasons for WOW's success,so they are reiterating the same theory on money making.

The sad part about it is having played hundreds of games,i know mounts are going to be wanted by every single player.This will feed the cash shop straight up as a lame gimmick.

We USED to all agree that fluff was acceptable in cash shops,but the gamer's with common sense ,KNEW that once you open the door on cash shop gaming,it would get worse over time and sadly we have seen it get real bad in a VERY short time.

I know MANY will like this game,just because it is Blizzard and want to add yet another Blizzard game to their portfolio,to me,it i just another Moba no matter how any tries to spin it.

I say "just another MOBA" for a reason,Blizzard's last two games HS and now HOTS are throw backs on advancements in technical gaming and graphics and just everything that goes  into game design.I want to see some IMPROVEMENTS in game design,not old tech,old ideas rehashed in a cost effective game design.

Will it be fun,i am sure many moba fans will love it,weather they like it for the actual game or just because it is another E-sport idk.

I feel it was a big risk by Blizzard to try and crash the doors of LOL and DOTA but in reality,this game design is really cheap to make,so not a huge risk for them.I personally would like to see Blizzard use those multi millions....Billions,to advance gaming and be a LEADER in the industry.By LEADER i DON'T mean in making money,i mean in game design.

When you get a billion dollar company you can risk it all on being the leader.  Risk your livelihood and that of your employees.  Bllzzard takes proven ideas and twists or tries to improve them.  Big companies do not take the risks...that is for small indies.  MOBA's around about things like skins and occasional new heros.  What else you think they are going to make to generate money?

Nintendo might want a word with you.

You're acting like the only options these companies have is 'risk everything' and 'risk nothing, play to mass appeal'. Not so. Any company with the capital to fund multiple projects simultaneously (which Blizzard has) has the option to experiment with one or more of those projects. Blizzard chooses not to. Not only are they not a company founded on innovation, but they are more than happy to play it safe and engineer their games for what's popular.

Does it makes sense from a business sense? Absolutely. But this is exactly the same thing that EA has been doing, except EA's been doing it by absorbing other companies, while Blizzard just rips their ideas without acquisition.

The ironic thing is that we demonize EA for this, but Blizzard gets all the praise in the world. Blizzard is one of the best at what they do, but they get credit for a lot of things that were someone else's. HotS is a decent bite-sized MOBA in a basic sense, but (like Hearthstone) it actively strips all depth & strategy from the gameplay but the base necessary to still call it a game.

Originally posted by jdizzle2k13
Sounds interesting.  I would definitely like to see a game where strategy and teamwork is more valued than simply killing people as quickly as possible.
 
The only question I would have then, is would this game be able to appeal to enough people to keep it going?  I hope so.

Ditto to this ^

I would love to see more games with depth & strategy to them. I do worry about whether enough people will play it to keep it going. Hopefully i'm in the wrong on this one.

This column seemed a bit contrived, but I like that they do try and cover both sides of each issue.

A short answer is YES. MMOs are becoming too casual. All games are. The details aren't so simple, but the reality is clear. The problem is that most games try and cater to the most common denominator. Meaning they simplify, simplify, simplify until their game is in a state in which most people can easily understand the game with minimal / no effort. Now, at a fundamental level this is actually a good thing. Bringing more people into your game = more revenue, which means you can do more with the game or fund better projects in the future. It's essential to have a decent playerbase for any given game.

That said, most games unfortunately accomplish this by sacrificing depth. Games with depth tend to have more of a learning curve, which a lot of people seem to struggle with. But instead of having games that are easy to understand, difficult to master; we tend to get games that are easy to understand, easy to master. Devs see players struggling with certain game mechanics, and rather than engineer the game to push the players to do better, we get the challenge eroded from the game little by little. Dungeons become easier, DPS rotations less complex, tanking mechanics are stupidly simple nowadays, support roles limited to basically spamming 1-2 heals and an 'oh crap!' spell.

The sad thing is we do get games that are made to be challenging. However most of them get ignored by most players, because they are 'too hard' or they 'don't know what to do'. The few that do survive seem to suffer the same fate of gradually getting simpler and simpler. For example, look at what's happening w/ the MOBA genre, the latest game HotS basically strips most of the strategy out of the game, leaving the bare minimum required to have a working game mode. The focus is almost entirely on fighting (which a lot of people praise it for), but the depth is gone.

Originally posted by rounner
Originally posted by nolf

...  No one had any real idea where this supposed battlefield was.  A guy apparently knew a guy who knew a guy who gave him rough coordinates to it.  We wandered mostly aimlessly, in the general direction we thought we were meant to go. ...

 This isn't rose coloured glasses though, games weren't min-maxed and mapped out as much and people were generally less fussy about a lot because they didn't know any better. Someone posted a few weeks ago that it is the mystery that they are trying to recapture but there is little left. I'd say ironically games are deliberately trying to remove mystery in that they seek balance and fairness which is arguably its antithesis.

This sums it up pretty perfectly.

OP, you need to think about not only the games you were playing back then, but the CLIMATE that you played them in. When MMOs first started to become a thing was during a time when the internet was also still very much growing into... well we didn't know what it would become at the time. Many people still had dial-up, and while there were fan sites for various MMOs, it wasn't anywhere near what we have today.

Back then it was common to spend months just trying to figure out what was actually in the game. People would also often worry about messing up their characters because they didn't know any better, and didn't want to waste months of time spent lvling just to remake due to a mistake. Now? Regardless of how good a game is, all it's mysteries are discovered within days of release. Sometimes even prior to release, depending on how good the datamining is. And it's all up there on the internet for everyone to see.

The irony is that most of what we used to do back in the 'golden age' of MMOs, you can still do in modern games. We just don't anymore. Largely because we are no longer forced to, but also because of incentives. We are creatures driven by incentives, and as a result we will often choose the easiest / most seemingly convenient method to get what we want. Unfortunately when it comes to MMOs, that generally means ignoring 90% of the game's content, looking up spoilers for much of the rest, and skipping what can be skipped to 'get the loot' or reward at the end of the tunnel. A lot of gamers no longer play these games for the journey, they skip the journey to play for the rewards.

It's backwards, but we are as much to blame for it as the developers / games themselves.

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