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All Posts by aesperus

All Posts by aesperus

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Originally posted by Abuz0r

Title says it all.

I can't even name a game in this post or it'll distract from the topic.  There's about 5 current 1 size fits all big budget MMOs on the market right now.  Basically nobody really likes any of them.

Every 2 days I see a post about whats going to be the next big one, does that mean the next 1 size fits all?

Why don't companies make smaller niche games that attract players with similar interests.  People that like them love them and people who dislike them just play something else, simple enough.

Essentially it comes down to this:

1) 'We' don't want 1 size fits all games. We watch games that cater specifically to us, aka 'niche' games.


We also want our niche games to have the budget of a '1-size fits all' type MMO. Which is realistically impossible, and yet we want it all the same. We don't care how much money it takes to make our game, we all want what we want, and everyone wants something different.

And that is basically the problem. We all expect a list of features from every game. We've stopped approaching these games like new experiences. Developers have to consider how much money their games will make, they need to make tough decisions in order to keep their studios from going bankrupt. Because 1 failed MMO costs so much money, that it actually IS damaging enough to bankrupt most studios on the market today.

So essentially it leaves us w/ a couple options. We either start warming up to more smaller budget games (indie or otherwise), and settle for less production value, in favor of more mechanics that match what we're looking for, or we need to settle for games that have some of what we want, but a lot of other stuff we may not. Because it has to cater to a wider audience.

There's also the third option, of learning to check your expectations at the door, and treating each game as it's own thing. But most people seem incapable of doing that, imho.

Originally posted by allday88
Just some fun facts I found while doing some research on a post here. The one that disproves the other post is 62% the real majority play with others. But here is the link with some other facts.

1) That specific fact says '62% play with others, either in person.. or online'

Since the majority of games made today are built with some form of online play, this doesn't really mean gamers play with others in a social way, merely that multiple gamers are generally found playing the same game over the internet. (i.e. all MMOs fall into this metric, regardless of whether or not the players are treating it as a solo experience)

2) The data has no link or reference to point to how they actually collect their data.

Without knowing how a selection of data is obtained, it is impossible to tell how accurate it actually is to any one specific point trying to be made while using it.

3) It's In the many years that I've been posting on this site, I don't think I've seen more than a dozen or so instances of people using actual logic and facts in a proper way.

Most people do what's typical. They go out and find some metric they think supports their claim, regardless of whether it actually does or not, and proceed to pass it off as proof they are right. There are very few topics looking at cold hard data and asking about what it might mean, or posts that admit that the data might not fully support their claim, or leave room for error.

There's an old saying:

'Statistics don't lie, but you can lie using statistics.'

Originally posted by The.agG

I play Dota 2 (been playing it with wc3 dota for over 6 years now) but i am kinda not sure whether to continue or not. Icefrog's recent balance patches have left a sour taste in my mouth with the game just getting more and more aggressive as compared to what it was years ago. The entire game is about snowballing these days. In most games, the winner is apparent within 10 mins and because there is no abandon, the rest is just waiting for the enemy to end. A lot of heroes are downright overpowered right now as well because of the same aggressive balancing which are obviously first pick material in ranked games.

I wanted to try LoL but i hate the art and absolutely despise Riot's market and player ethics.

Smite i have heard a lot of interesting stuff about and i might check it out sometime soon.

Smite is definitely worth checking out.

It has more gameplay modes than the other 2, and is a lot more action packed. It doesn't have the complexity of DotA2, but is more complex than league.

- I think the main issue w/ DotA2 right now is that Valve seems to be trying to up the action (make it more exciting), to match that over other competitive games. The changes to blink daggers they did some time ago (removing the mana cost) went a long way to increasing this. The games are still long, but you tend to see a lot more fights / ganks now.

However, a biproduct of that you is you also tend to have a lot more snowballing.

Smite tends to have a lot of snowballing as well (especially when people don't ban out the hypercarries), but the games also tend to be shorter. And there IS a surrender vote after 10minutes.

Originally posted by ASVP
I personally love Smite. It's an amazing and fun game to play just wondering which ones you guys prefer

Personally I prefer Smite as well. I think it's an extremely underrated game. However, I've played all 3.

LoL is kinda like the WoW of MOBAs. It's not a bad game, and has been around a while. I don't prefer it, but many of my friends play it, so I still jump in every now and then.

Mechanically, I think DotA2 is the most complex. I really enjoy the mechanics of DotA2, however I find it the least accessible of the 3. I still hop in from time to time, because I think it's a phenomenal game, but I have trouble sticking with it.

Smite, on the other hand, has a lot to enjoy. It's usually fast paced, everything's a skillshot, most of the abilities feel fun to use, etc. I only really have 2 complaints about smite, and they are these.

1) I wish more people played. Not only would it help the game grow even faster, but there are still some issues with the current matchmaking due to population. They want fast Ques, which I love, but it also means getting horribly skewed games every so often.

2) I think they put too much emphasis on population numbers when they look at balancing. For example, in their latest patch they're making Janus easier to play. The reasoning for this was 'while he functions extremely well in high lvl play and tournaments, in casual que he is severely underperforming'. Which is logical, except the god was designed to be a high skill cap character, with the assumption that when people learn how to play him correctly he will do a lot of damage. And they've achieved that, so I don't get the change. There's some other Gods that have undergone equally questionable changes due to a focus on population metrics. (Like nerfing hades because of his unusually high win rate, inspite the fact that almost no one ever plays him)

Overall, the game has deceptively good balance (because they do keep an eye on the statistics and try to keep them inline), however they still make some irksome changes every few updates or so. I'm still /facepalming at how they handled the Warrior meta.

Originally posted by DMKano

All humans are entitled - some of us are just more accepting of it, the rest are more in denial about it.

To be human is to feel entitled - entitlement was born out of human delusion of self-importance.

This ^

When we expect to be given something (which happens multiple times daily), that's a form of entitlement. No matter how justified it may be.

Entitlement isn't inherently bad, but it can easily become a bad thing when we expect too much. Which also tends to happen more often than not. As we are given more and more things every year, our expectations rise with them. And  thus, our sense of entitlement.


While this is a good article, and opens strong; It has a very weak closing argument. In fact the closing argument contradicts itself.

"To blame the gamers for now wanting what companies have given them" helps to point to the very entitlement the author claims 'doesn't exist'. There's nothing wrong with wanting more. However, we don't tend to stop there. We demand more, we expect features X, Y, and Z; and if any of those are missing we claim it's crap. The problem is, everyone has their own unique feature list that they expect each game to cater to.

The article also tried to make a comparison to Kodak. This is very much faulty. Out of all current forms of creative medium, games are perhaps the most uniquely suited to a sense of entitlement. This is because games have basically become a feature list. A combination of mechanics, features, and services. And with every new game, this list grows. And with it, our expectations.

Kodak, on the other hand, sells tools. These are about opening options for the consumer, and promise nothing else. Whether it be to make taking photos easier, or to provide various types of film, or to process your film for you. It's ultimately up to the consumer to determine what to do with it. And you don't see people blaming their camera's manufacturer for them taking a bad photo. Not so with games.

- It's no secret that today's games have evolved into much more social experiences. As such, it seems a bit naive to assume that the societies that form around these games bear no influence for how those very same games progress. It's been said many times by developers that they do what they can to listen to their players. And indeed some mistakes that have been made in the past have been as a result of devs listening to the players, though the 'wrong' ones.

Expecting to be given something, no matter how justified or realistic you may think that is, is a form of entitlement.

"the feeling or belief that you deserve to be given something"

To pretend we don't have that seems a bit naive. Granted, different people have different levels of entitlement, and some are more justified than others. We are a community of multiple minds, opinions, tastes, and expectations. We are entitled, and we are partially responsibile for the state of games today. We ask / demand certain things and devs try to deliver upon them. Devs try new things, and we reject or accept them. Just look at the latest Xbox console, they tried to impose a set of features we gamers didn't want, we rejected them for it, and they were forced to change their console as a result.

That's the way the world works.

Originally posted by Bentusi

As a WoW veteran I can see the reasons for the demand for F2P, because many people know just how absorbed you can get in an MMO, and don`t want to be stuck paying a monthly sub for years. It gets pretty expensive after all compared to normal games, if you add it all up. The way I see it a pay to buy the game, then don`t pay to play it later, before charging something for XP packs every three years or so is the only model which is viable, and which is also fair to the players. From experience I know that there were many months when I was not precisely clear on what it was I was paying for with WoW, since new content was far between. Yet you sort of felt forced to play to get some value for money, and it became a pretty negative cycle, to add to all the other negative cycles WoW often started.

Where entitlement comes in for me is not by demanding an end to sub based MMOs but in the incomprehensible attitude of some people that they are somehow entitled to see the entire game, just because they paid money for it. I mean, try making this demand with games like Pac Man, Iridis Alpha or chess. I bought this chess board so I demand to become as good as someone who has practiced every day for 20 years! How dare that ghost eat me???? Nerf the ghosts!!! And above all why is there a giant bull`s head there and then immediately below it as well, and why is my Gilby white and why did I just explode???? Nerf Jeff Minter!!!!

It`s so stupid it makes my head hurt. One of the main attractions with games for me has always been that they`re challenging, and that I can come back to them over and over because I haven`t been able to finish them. And I miss being impressed by people who were much better than I was, or on occasion impressing others, and I`m still wondering how it was even possible to clear all of Paradroid. Yet now it seems that a new generation of gamers are on the scene, fully expecting to be able to complete games with little or no effort. I will just never understand the point of that. Why even play games then? And this was what ruined WoW for me, what made the first playthrough of Diablo III so unbelievably tedious and what made DAO and Mass Effect much too trivial to finish. Why does everything have to be so mind numbingly simple? Have IQs dropped or something?

Out before rant mode commences. Be gentle.

Honestly, F2P grew out of the increasingly frequent excuses / assumptions tied to the subscription model.

Subs, are basically a legacy business model for MMOs. They were started back when the MMO genre was MUCH smaller, and needed the money for maintenance costs. It then evolved, with the promise that subscription money was being used to 'improve & expand' the game. With that explanation further embellished by the assumption that subs guarantee more content & quality than other business models.

In more recent years, that has been a load of crap for many sub games. There are no more guarantees. And so we now have F2P / hybrid models, which are built from that lie, with a more consumer friendly mindset. However, as with any business model, we have companies that now exploit F2P instead of the sub, while trying to exist under the same 'consumer friendly' banner that F2P was founded on.

Simply put, business models are just an elaborate cat & mouse game. Games need the money to stay alive, and gamers can be very finnicky with their money. People will throw money at some games, and not at others, and it's not uncommon this happens for fairly peculiar reasons. I don't think subscriptions are dead, and people have shown that they are still wiling to throw money at games every month. It's just a matter of how you present that payment.

Originally posted by Kopogero

I can go forth and forth and forth on the MANY reasons many would think why MMORPG's are at the current stage today, but all those reasons above are innacurate. There is one simple reason why today's MMORPG's aren't something truly better and greater than MMORPG's that were launched decades today and that is...

Those in charge of developing MMORPG's do not have the skills, love, experience, drive to work together and develop one EPIC MMORPG that when created it will make the MMORPG P2P market become 125 mil not 24 mil. People today do not involve themself with MMORPG's because they believe that LIFE has better options and value/entertainment. It's NOBODY's elses fault but yourself if you fail to deliver a successful product that can create a market and lure people to spend $ on it.

So for the last time, I'm tired of seeing all these threads, with so many reasons/assumptions why we have the quality of MMORPG's today after all these years. If people are happy enough with their lives as they are to not create that epic MMORPG then good for them. If people have the $ and are not as desperate to create it, again good for them. And if us the gamers can find ways to entertain ourselves in these dire times for this genre good for us.

1) What, exactly, would that one EPIC MMORPG actually look like? Where would that extra 101million people come from? What demographic should these developers be tapping into? 'Cause I know it's not the 101million people posting on MMORPG, because that number doesn't exist.

So, what exactly is this game you seem to have such keen insight on? Because if you have a seriously good answer to this question, you could not only be filthy rich; but also be the Finding Forester of game design.

2) Don't you find it ironic? That you claim to be tired of threads proclaiming various assumptions / reasons about MMORPGs; and yet you are literally doing that exact same thing.

I know I truncated your original post, because it is a long one, but many of the reasons you listed are actually valid. Because, and this may come as a shock, but things often have multiple reasons / contributing factors. Especially things as complex as an MMORPG. The world isn't black and white, and neither are games. Most of these problems come from us trying to find contrast in a market saturated by too much grey.

- I've said this before, but I guess I have to say it again. People do NOT go into game design for the money. There are far safer, and more reliable ways to make a good living. They go into game design because they love making games. To turn around and claim that no one has any passion for creating games is not only ignorant, but highly insulting to quite a number of talented people. And we wonder why certain developers give up on making games..

Originally posted by Foomerang

Every time someone wants to rant about the state of the genre, or how everything sucks, or now much they hate whatever new shiny is around to hate, Star Wars Galaxies gets dragged into the conversation.

Poor SWG. My favorite MMO ever and one of the best games Ive played, is now reduced to petty leverage for negativity and cynicism. Its ironic that a game which a lot of fans felt cultivated an amazing community is now used as an excuse to spew poison in this very community. Hate filled post after post, shitting on everything, and citing SWG as some long lost beacon of how it used to be good.

Please stop tarnishing the memory of an old favorite. Stop using SWG to trash everything else. Thats not what the game was about. Your personal agendas dont justify turning a great game with fond memories into a martyr. It does a disservice to its legacy and goes against what it stood for.

thank you

Unfortunately, that's what happens whenever you put anything on a pedestal. It's only natural that people will compare things to that perceived pinnacle. And as a result, it gets used as an example (ammunition) as how other things are bad, or how they 'should' be.

It does suck, and it's lame that people do this, but what can you do. On the bright side, SWG seems to be a game uniquely paraded on this site specifically. And while it often does get used to demonize other games, there are also quite a number of posters on this site who also worship SWG (pre-cu), and rise up to defend anything negatively said about the game.

So while it does suck that your game is being perverted, at least it's not being slandered. Just ignore those that try and use your game as ammunition, and continue enjoying reminiscing with those that share an equal love for the game you played.

Asking about whether a game is 'hyped' wrong, or similar to another game is rather pointless.

Hype is generated by the players, even though marketting teams initiate it (which they do just by catering to basic human nature),  and as we've seen countless times it has nothing to do w/ how good the game is or isn't, or how popular it will be. Really, the only way hype actually matters, is if you are incapable of thinking for yourself and forming your own opinions about a game.

This is why it's much more important to form your own opinions. To ignore what 'the masses' hype about, and focus on the right types of questions. What types of features / mechanics a game has. How well they are implemented. How smooth the gameplay is. But most importantly, how closely these match your own personal bias'.

People got excited for GW2, and even now (nearly 3 years later) the game has a boatload of people playing it. Some people got hyped for the wrong reasons, others knew exactly what they were buying, and many people actually were trying to play it like another WoW clone. Any game which has mechanics that are different from the current norm, is going to struggle with this problem if it has popular interest, and also some degree of familiarity to it. Because, whether we realize it or not, most of us try to pigeon-hole games into an assumption we have about what the game 'should' be. An assumption most of us make before we have a single clue as to how the game actually works, or what mechanics are in it. It's part of human nature, and it leads to people having horribly inaccurate first impressions of things. Not just video games.

Originally posted by Helleri
Originally posted by Rydeson

     Well said Oeffort..  Welcome to the instant gratification selfish generation..  I'm not speaking gaming either, but this attitude is growing in real society changes as well..  People want to believe that technology is opening up more social doors like your Facebooks, but they really aren't..  That is fake social BS..  IMO Kids are growing up to be anti-social more and more, and are losing the art of playing face to face with "REAL" friends.. 

     As adults we are being forced to work longer hours, socialize less.. /shrug.. Today's generation is nothing like the 70/80's and I don't believe it's for the best.. I fear what my kids and grand kids are going to grow up in.. 

Kids are talking to people in other countries and from other cultures more then they ever have been (often in real time). As well as participating in discussion on social norms at a younger age. And they have quicker access to more information then they ever have before. And, tend to be interested in self education as well as entertainment. Which makes for some scarily well informed children.

**snip for length***

From what I have seen the most anti social behavior (truly anti social behavior) tends to come from the people who complain about how others are acting anti-socialy. When all they are doing is changing the mode and often being rather considerate in not forcing others into things they have no interest in.

Just wanted to say, excellent post. Very intelligent and well thought out.

Not only do I agree with most of your points, but I think you make a lot of good ones.

Oh look, yet another poster blaming devs for something that is really the fault of the players. The fact that GW2 is even used as an example illustrates this. Though few will admit that maybe they are at fault. Because we are all secretly experts in game design, and are never wrong about anything.

While it is true that some games have a greater quantity of features that make socializing easier, or more forced; it is still the players that determine whether a game is social or anti-social. To use GW2 as an example, while you can solo your way through most of the game, the game also removes barriers that hinder communication and teamwork, and even rewards players for helping each other out and coordinating. And yet, people still continue to label that game antisocial, because they don't feel the need to talk with other people, or get mad if every person they come across doesn't drop everything to start up a conversation with them. And while that is anti-social behavior, it's not on the part of the game. If you were to act the same way in real life, people would label you as antisocial, or socially awkward. And yet, in the game it's now automatically the game's (and thus the developer's) responsibility to do that FOR us. Which is insane.

It should be no big secret by now that the games that get made, get made the way they are because it's what people are playing / buying. Developers don't want to create games at a loss, ever. So if a project has a huge budget (which all AAA projects do) they are going to minimize risks, by making games they are fairly certain will sell. Because it's what any sane person would do. Games allow for the option to be anti-social, because it's what most players want. People don't want to be forced to talk to people they don't want to, anymore than you'd enjoy being forced to talk to a creepy guy on the subway / metroline.

It doesn't mean you don't talk to anyone. And yet, many players act like it does. But hey, it's never their responsibility. So it's gotta be someone else's.

Originally posted by noncley

'Another rant about graphics'

Don't you think that the fact that there are so many of - what you rather rudely call - these 'rants' might mean there is something significantly wrong with the game? These complaints don't just come out of thin air.

No, it doesn't mean anything. These complaints may not just come out of thin air, but they do spring out of random internet forumn nonsense. Which is less impressive, and more meaningless.

The graphics are stylized, as can be said of most games that have been made throughout history. They aren't done cheaply, and mimick those that can be found in games like TF2, and dishonored / bioshock infinite (though dishonored and bioshock are obviously more dark in tone). Secondly, when you talk about graphics, what you are actually talking about is the art style. The shading, rendering, & shadows of the game thus far are fairly standard when it comes to graphics tech.

- Lastly, aesthetics (graphics / artstyle) are the first and biggest thing most gamers notice when playing a game. it is also the most frequently criticized and complained about aspect of games today. The fact that people are criticizing the graphics in this game is nothing special. People do so about literally every game.

Originally posted by JeroKane

I can agree on one thing and I think many will agree with that.

And that is, that John Smedly has been on the helm for far too long and needs to be replaced by someone else.

He has made so many bad decisions over the years. And I mean really bad ones. Not to mention lying to your customers time and again. He would make Pinochio proud!

In any other private Company, he would have gotten the boot years ago. How he is still at the helm at SOE. Totally baffles me.

This is better written, and more accurate than the vast majority of what the OP typed. There's so much wrong in the OP it would take far too long to point out all the errors in logic and info.

You're definitely right about Smedly, and he's ruined so many potentially good games. Hopefully he won't be doing the same with EQN, but it's kind of a wait and see type of deal. Ultimately the thing that will kill EQN is if they try and put too much 'sameness' into the game. It's clearly being designed to function in a unique way to other games. If they either can't get the tech to work correctly, or they try and sugar coat it w/ too much 'safe' design, it's going to suffer.

- Oh, and btw it's Pinoccio.

Originally posted by sludgebeard

TESO for me just feels different than other MMO's. In the way that I just described Darkfall, i gives me a singular experiance that is seperate from most other MMO's. When I played Wildstar it was like 'Alright, im playing an MMO'>


When I played ESO it was more like "Alright! Im playing ESO!" because I felt like the game had unique enough mechanics to warrant playing it. It was mainly combat for me though, ESO for me has Hand's Down, one of the best MMO combat ever. It feels good, it plays good, and if the difficulty was raised just a bit, and with better dungeon reward it would be legendary.

I feel like this is something often overlooked when it comes to ESO.

The games got such a vocally bad rap, that I think many people look past what the game does well. That said, ZOS  has made quite a few mistakes to warrant skepticism. But the game is much more unique than people give it credit for.

The combat is unique (except maybe when comparing it to other ES games. And it's the first MMO to use phasing on such a large scale (it literally uses phasing to allow you to change the world you play in). Both have their own faults (skills not having cooldowns, and being entirely resource based makes combat a balancing nightmare. Phasing in it's current state makes it a nightmare to quest w/ friends).

But if they can straighten out some of these issues, while adding some of the content they've been showing, the game has the potential to be insanely good.

Originally posted by Phry
Originally posted by sumdumguy1
Its funny you posted this tonight because I had this conversation this evening with another friend.   He told me he is leaving Wildstar and going back to ESO.   There were 5 of us at happy hour and its funny because it seems everyone is starting to settle in their niche games now.  He will be in ESO.  Another is playing LOTRO, another is playing TSW, another is playing SWTOR and me I am playing Guild Wars 2.   Eventually we hope to find a game we can all enjoy  together. 

Modern MMO's seem to be increasingly evolving into 'niche' games, i think the times where MMO's appeal to a broad spectrum of player types is pretty much ancient history now, certainly there aren't any currently or in development that are trying to break away from that. I don't know if its development costs or if its just because its that difficult to make a game that appeals to a broad segment of the gaming community, maybe WoW really is the last of a 'dying breed' of game, i hope not, but all i see when i look around these days, are niche games that don't really try that hard to be anything else.

The funny thing is, none of the games talked about in this thread are actually niche MMOs. Not one. What's happening is players are getting more and more picky about what they are willing to play, and those goes exponentially more when it comes to MMOs (for some unknown reason). It's the shopping list syndrome.

It's like if u had a group of people who all were shopping for soap, but each had allergies to 1 specific ingredient found across different brands. They're all in the same market, but u get a crowd full of people buying different kinds. With MMOs, a similar thing is happening. People get attached to 1 specific type of feature, 1 art style, a genre, an IP, a development studio, and on and on. People are willing to pass up good games because it lacks 1 feature, or doesn't have the specific artstyle they prefer, or it's done by a studio who shut down a game they loved 1000 years ago. Or it's not in space, or it is in space.

The reason WoW became the behemoth it is, has almost nothing to do with the game itself. Similar to how Halo didn't popularize console shooters because it was a better FPS than everything else. Certain companies have far more pull than others (like Blizzard) and are able to bring millions of customers into a genre on their name alone (blizzard brand). This gets witnessed with nearly every Blizzard game. Other games can have mass appeal, but it won't be on the same scale, because they aren't bringing in outside consumers anymore (the market has already been saturated). As such, they're all just taking pieces of the pie, and no matter how massive the appeal, they can't make a bigger pie.

Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by Dihoru
**snip for length**

"Live in the present people" what exactly does this imply except move on?

Could you please (with sugar on top) at least grasp what the OP as well as others are saying? No one is denying SWG had issues, no one implied anything close to that.

The topic is about features, it just happened to be SWG that had them... The ops entire post was about features, and that he'd rather see those kinds of things being the focus.. SWG's problems have nothing to do with that.

I hate to say it, but you are being unreasonably hostile towards Dihoru.

It may not be what people want to hear, but he's made some good points. And the OP, while he is talking about features, he's been repeatedly trying to compare them to games that have little-nothing in common w/ the one he admires so much (SWG).

We get it, SWG had some great mechanics. And definitely some really interesting ideas. But this thread wasn't structured around how interesting the ideas were. It was structured around 'objectively' (used incorrectly) all modern games are trash compared to SWG. The OPs point (and numerous others as well), essentially amounts to 'newer games are bad, because they aren't sandboxes. SWG is the best, because it's the pinnacle of sandbox MMO (at least according to the vocal minority on these forums).

People do need to live in the present a little. It's fine to look back fondly on a game you loved. But that's not what this thread is. This thread is a dilusional attempt to compare an MMO from 2003, to games today which are made around completely different circumstances. As I've mentioned earlier in this thread, the MMO market today is monumentally different from what it was back in 2003. For one, theres 100x more people playing these types of games. Secondly, the criteria (most) people want from their games is very much different (for better or worse).

In 2003, we had a few hundred thousand people in the entire genre. Now we have 10s of millions. Those of us that want games like we had back in 2003 are the minority, which is why most modern games aren't being made for us. Though, with time this is changing. And it's highly likely we'll probably see games more closely mimicking those from 2003 in another 5-9 years. Because these things tend to go in cycles.

Originally posted by HikaruShidou
Originally posted by Kyleran

While I didn't play this title, from what I've read isn't there an equally long list of negatives that could be associated with this title, including many bugs, multiple missteps in delivery and direction, and a host of other issues?

While it did many things well and different from today's games, it also did enough wrong to see it become one of the few MMORPG's where the plug was pulled.

Don't get me wrong, I like the designs of the earlier games, probably why EVE remains my favorite to this day, but we're in a minority, most players today don't like those designs and they show it by voting with their wallets and buying just about every new title that is released in numbers far exceeding anything reached by SWG or other early title.

Actually, you could just call that SOE.  The plug was mostly pulled due to SWTOR releasing. I remember reading a thread by a SOE member before it shut down stating that.

That's the problem with creating games off of IPs you don't personally own. You're left at the mercy of the people who license the IP.


Originally posted by Darkholme
The housing and crafting systems in games like Ultima Online and SWG back then are clearly objectively better than in modern MMORPGs. Those systems in newer games now are nothing but shallow window dressing compared to earlier games. Those systems especially are virtually meaningless in new games... it's not a matter of personal taste or preference, it's how the mechanics work and whether or not they are integral and meaningful systems.

I think you need to learn the definitions for 'objective' and 'subjective', if you're going to continue to use them in conversation.

You, personally, preferring certain mechanics over others has nothing to do w/ objectivity.

That said, back in 2003 games had a completely different criteria. Developers will still figuring stuff out, and experimenting. The entire genre had only a few 100 thousand players total. You can now get that in a single game, and some games have multiple times that number in subscribers / buyers / players / etc.

The criteria for games changes to meet the market, and the market now is much different than it was back in 2003. Will we ever see a return to how things were back then? Probably, these things tend to go in ~20 year cycles. So come back in 2023 and see what the game are like then.

But saying that features back then are 'objectively' better than features now, is not only ignorant, but it doesn't apply. It's like trying to argue that fishing is a better mechanic than questing. They have completely different goals, and cater to completely different demographics. They aren't even remotely close to trying to achieve the same thing.

There is so much false logic in this thread, I don't know where to begin.

I'm not sure which point the OP is actually trying to make for one. That people incorrectly accuse companies of being greedy? Or that a reskinned SWG / EQ1 could make a lot of money? The two aren't really related, and don't really have anything to do with one another.

That said, companies are all greedy to varying degrees. It's in their best interest to make money. That's how they stay alive. Contrary to popular belief, 'good' games don't make nearly as much money as you'd expect. Games with lots of marketting, based off of established formulas do. This is why there are so many sequels, remakes, and clones of previous games. They make way more money than they probably should. And they're almost guarunteed to do so. Even if the game is bad.

The reasons we don't see SWG / EQ1 clones are as follows:

SWG cannot happen without acquiring the license for the IP first. Which is extremely expensive.

Furthermore, there is no actual evidence to support that the amount of time, money, and resources it would take to do a proper reskin of these games would actually justify the amount of money they would make. There is no real evidence to suggest that they would make more money than they did original. There is pleanty of evidence to suggest that they'd actually make less. And the amount of work it would take to 'modernize' those two games is a lot more substantial than a lot of people seem to realize. Furthermore, you're still going to have people saying crap like 'well, it's not 100% the same as SWG / EQ1, it's crap I won't play it!' Because there are always those people, and whenever you modernize any game, it's impossible for it to be exactly like the original, because you are changing it to look newer. Even if it's only the aesthetics that are changed, that's what most gamers pay attention to.

Lastly, most designers don't want to spend 5 years working on a game they've already made. It's not only extremely dull, but it doesn't help them evolve as designers, and it doesn't help their careers at all. They want to try new things, create new system, try new mechanics, etc.

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