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All Posts by aesperus

All Posts by aesperus

255 Pages « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 » Last
5097 posts found

What the trinity is superior at, is providing a combat experience for people who want familiar roles, that they don't have to think much about. That might sound harsh, but it's absolutely true.

What the trinity doesn't do is add depth to combat (in fact it actively seeks to do the exact opposite), it doesn't add complexity, and it only adds the bare minimum of strategy.

While I won't argue that (when it comes to MMOs) many of the newer games trying to break away from the trinity mold haven't done the best job of it; this doesn't automatically mean that the trinity model is the only option. An opinion which the OP (and many others) seems to default to.

There are games without trinities that have amazing combat. People like to point to GW2 as a a failed experiment, but it's ironically not. The biggest problem w/ GW2 is that much of the AI from launch was done poorly (which you cannot have in non-trinity games). With the newer content they've actively been fixing this one step at a time, and the game actually is having more varied boss encounters, with mechanics that require a multitude of specs, strategies, and approaches to beat.

And there in lies the problem and main difference between the two. The trinity is by far the easiest model to implement. It's about as simplistic as you can possibly get, which means that designers don't really have to flex their brain as much to get a functional trinity system in play. Non-trinity models are much less tread ground. There's a lot more room for experimentation, but there's also a lot more room for error. It's much easier to screw up a non-trinity game than it is to ruin a trinity one.

Imho, I prefer non-trinity models. They're still improving sure, but they add more depth to the combat. There's a lot more potential for interesting fights, and they force you to think and use your imagination more. All things I look for in games I play. I like using my brain when I play, I don't like games that have you unplug and play in a semi-coma state of satisfaction.

Originally posted by DevilSeph

Good Old Blizzard North, we had SC1, Warcraft 3, D2 than they proved that they can make MMO-s like vanilla WoW.

More than 10 years passed and they let us down!  by now we should have gotten some Diablo mmo or SC mmo but all we got is some card games, some pandas and murlocks, huge fail d3 and some cheap ass over simplified anoying moba called hots ( murlock hero included which usually is troll pick to loose...)

Where is our SC mmo :(

You do realize that the Blizzard of today is NOT that same Blizzard from back then. It's been Blizzard-Activision for a while now, a merger, and most of that original talent that made those classic games have since moved on to other studios and projects.

They've done a good job milking off those past successes, but they just aren't the same company.

Originally posted by Encephalitis
Originally posted by rodingo
Originally posted by Magiknight
Originally posted by Amjoco
Until I have less than 20 mmorpgs to choose from I'm not even going to read the article. As it is, there are so many good choices out there sometimes I wonder where all this gloom and despair is coming from. Dead? nah

The article says they are dying because there are so many.  One generic one after the next. A few to choose from would be nice.

If thats the case, then I guess cars, food, music, and art is dying since there is so much variety.  I mean, this one article writer says so, so it must be true... 

it's funny that you chose the 4 most cookie cutter genres of blatant homogenization to refute the OP's post that, due to massive reincarnation of the exact same thing, clearly it means the genre is fully fledged and functional and in no way sitting on a bubble waiting to be popped.

Homogenized =/= dead. In all 4 cases you still have custom / creative works that break the mold. What you're describing is the natural progression ALL creative mediums go through throughout history.

Whenever a new medium is created, it gains in popularity. When there's enough interest, it becomes profitable. When it becomes profitable, business / industry starts getting involved / interested. Once that happens, you have people who try and formulize what's successful. It's a contradiction in many ways, but it's what businesses do. You don't maintain profits by primarily taking uncalculated risks. However, you need to take risks if you want to get an edge.

Which is why typically smaller / independant interests who can afford the risks and need the edge do so, and more established / larger parties typically don't. Cars have custom builders and shows, food has countless independent restaurants / chefs / recipes / etc., music has self-published artists, and traditional art has independent shows / exhibits / etc. Yes, they are all dominated by old-hat business ventures, but they've been around long enough & popular enough to warrant such. It doesn't stop the people in those perspective industries from getting around that aspect of each one, and as a result each of those have evolved over time.

Originally posted by Magiknight

http://www.techradar.com/us/news/gaming/is-the-mmorpg-on-the-verge-of-extinction--1289503

 

He sums it up.  

The author of that article seems to have trouble holding on to an actual point. He also seems to forget his opening point somewhere mid article.

The entire thing sums up to logic based around the stance that: 'MMOs are dying because too many of the same big budget clones are being made, and may be dead because those same big budget clones aren't being made anymore'

Seriously? Yes MMO are changing, and yes MMOs as we have grown to know them may be largely gone, but that's not exactly the same as dead. There are two aspects of that article that actually hold water.

1) The standard formula needs to change. (and to a large extent it IS changing)

2) Funding for western MMOs is drying up. (Which is a bad sign true)

On the first point, this is mostly an indicator of change in the genre. The MMOs of tomorrow probably won't look the same as those of the past 10 years. The change is needed, we've just been plugging our ears and putting it off. Some may hate it, but it's no less necessary.

On the second point, this isn't just an indication of MMOs. Flagpole projects in general are lowering in number. This is true of a lot of games, movies, etc. That doesn't mean we are done seeing blockbuster hits. It just means that the bubble has bursted. We were making way too many of them, and way too many that were sub-par. When you ride that high to the peak of a bubble, everything on the way down seems like 'we're doomed!'. Not so, it's the natural course of how these sorts of things go.

You can have endless progression and funding. The party has to stop at some point, and someone's gotta take care of the mess.

Originally posted by Rusque

Simple, dungeons shouldn't be loot pinatas.

Dungeons should be destinations. They should be journeys unto themselves. They've been "gamified" and purpose built for loot acquisition instead of being a place to get lost in. Legend of Grimrock. It's a dungeon crawl, it's what a dungeon is supposed to be, not 3 rooms + 4 hallways.

There's plenty of games with short'n'sweet dungeon content, let's see some really long dungeons.

This is the problems dungeons have in online games specifically, though. In MMOs especially they are forced to walk a tightrope of conflicting expectations. They must be rewarding, but playable. They must be fun, challenging, but not too hard. They must be short enough that they can be done in a single play session, but long enough that they feel like an epic journey.

Essentially the expectations from dungeons have gotten to a point where people want to basically experience Dark Souls, in a period of an hour or two. And that just doesn't work. And as soon as you add loot (the reward) into the equation it gets even more problematic. Because people don't want to spend year(s) grinding to maybe get an item from a given dungeon. They want to feel rewarded for their time, but as soon as the rewards become significant enough people WILL farm them.

EQ/EQ2/Vanguard had some great dungeons, but that was a very different time back then. When it comes to single player / multiplayer dungeon crawlers, I think we can still have those older epic dungeons. When it comes to MMOs, I think the best we can expect would be something like what GW1 had. Long elaborate dungeons with versatile rewards (essentially crafting mats), and the option to do as much or as little of the dungeon as you could handle at a given time, but still be rewarded along the way. Kind of like in dark souls, how the whole game is basically one giant dungeon, but there are pleanty of places for you to stop and pickup where you left off later. I.E. checkpoints.

In a lot of ways I'd agree that most newer dungeons are too bitesized, and they should be made more elaborate again. However, there needs to be a middle ground. If they do get a lot larger, there needs to be break points for people that don't punish people for taking a break from the game, or not being able to play on a certain day.

Originally posted by observer
Originally posted by Telondariel

EQ2 has great dungeon design.  Granted, it was better 5+ years ago, but it is still a game that did it right.

 

I think a compiled list from this thread should be given to ANET to help improve what GW2 offers:  the worst dungeon design I've ever seen.  Not that they would listen to the community on anything truly relevant, but it's always a feel good move to try.

 

I wouldn't call it the worst design ever.  It's their A.I. that is really terrible.  The layouts and different paths are pretty good.  

I've got to second this.

And while a year ago I might agree with Telo on them not listening to the playerbase, given the recent developments with HoT, it seems like the opposite is true. The reason they have appeared to be ignoring their players seems to be because they were taking that feedback and making it into an expansion overhaul of the game. And indeed many of the big complaints I've been seeing addressed one by one.

They hired a raid designer to make better boss mechanics, and the new dungeon (aetherblade) is way better than most of the older ones, but it's too hard to really PUG. The most important change being that they're correcting the 'tank & spank' strats most current bosses have from being able to cheese the bad AI. And it makes a huge difference.

No offense, but I think Jason is missing a lot of obvious facts. Both about the game, and also about his examples.

I.E. in LotR the reason why they couldn't just fly eagles into mount doom was pretty well represented. There was an army there of 10s, 100s of thousands. They weren't all limited to hand-to-hand land-based combat. Plus there are the ring wraiths to deal with. Not to mention sauron / saruman. Which is partially why there is this long drawn-out story to deal with each threat as it came. In a war, any war, it is fairly rare that you use your best weapon straight away. There are too many risks involved with doing so. It can be destroyed (and you lose your advantage), it gives the enemy time to figure out a counter-strategy (and you lose your advantage), you're unlikely to have a decent follow-up strat (which generally means you lose the war), etc.

GW2 is kind of similar to this. Let's not forget the army of dragon's Zhaitan had at his disposal. You saw many of them at the end of the personal story. You don't just send a bunch of airships towards that without laying down some ground work first. Not to mention the whole part of the story were they talk about needing to actually build all those airships and mega lasers, and need time to stall so they can finish. The game doesn't start with all that stuff existing. It's all experiments that the pact was working on throughout the story, with them succeeding towards the end.

That stuff out of the way, we already know there will be no 'Sylvari vs. all' WvW. Maybe they could have a fun mini-event, similar to the PvP branded event they had around beta, but I don't see much else on that front.

Keep this in mind. We KNOW that not all sylvari are evil. It doesn't make sense to then force all PC sylvari to automatically be mordem monsters. We also KNOW that the nightmare court are primarily those influenced by the dragon, and that those who follow ventari's teachings have turned away from mordrem's influence. That right there paves a clear path for who is going to be evil and who isn't. We have some of the senior members of the Sylvari, the PC players, and maybe a few of the younger members. While all of the nightmare court, and many of the younger sylvari are likely to be mordem in the expansion.

- That said the question is still a good one. And it makes for a very interesting design challenge.

How do you create that kind of environment (full of prejudice & mistrust) without alienating sylvari players. Will they have vendors that refuse to sell to sylvari? Will it just be dialogue and vague insults? If they don't change the experience for PC syvari players, will it ruin the whole theme they've set for this new expansion? Will they just phone it in and solve the problem within the first few hours of storyline? All very good questions. And I hope that Anet is much more clever than the rest of us in this manner (well, and also specializations). Because this is one design problem I honestly don't have a great answer for. Not without placing a negative impact on sylvari players. I'm looking forward to seeing what Anet's solution is.

Originally posted by Horusra
Originally posted by Wizardry
Originally posted by Ozmodan
What do you need a mount in a MOBA for?

The real truth?Blizzard is all about marketing their KNOWN money makers.They rehash the WOW ideas over and over in many games.Mounts are one of the bigger reasons for WOW's success,so they are reiterating the same theory on money making.

The sad part about it is having played hundreds of games,i know mounts are going to be wanted by every single player.This will feed the cash shop straight up as a lame gimmick.

We USED to all agree that fluff was acceptable in cash shops,but the gamer's with common sense ,KNEW that once you open the door on cash shop gaming,it would get worse over time and sadly we have seen it get real bad in a VERY short time.

I know MANY will like this game,just because it is Blizzard and want to add yet another Blizzard game to their portfolio,to me,it i just another Moba no matter how any tries to spin it.

I say "just another MOBA" for a reason,Blizzard's last two games HS and now HOTS are throw backs on advancements in technical gaming and graphics and just everything that goes  into game design.I want to see some IMPROVEMENTS in game design,not old tech,old ideas rehashed in a cost effective game design.

Will it be fun,i am sure many moba fans will love it,weather they like it for the actual game or just because it is another E-sport idk.

I feel it was a big risk by Blizzard to try and crash the doors of LOL and DOTA but in reality,this game design is really cheap to make,so not a huge risk for them.I personally would like to see Blizzard use those multi millions....Billions,to advance gaming and be a LEADER in the industry.By LEADER i DON'T mean in making money,i mean in game design.

When you get a billion dollar company you can risk it all on being the leader.  Risk your livelihood and that of your employees.  Bllzzard takes proven ideas and twists or tries to improve them.  Big companies do not take the risks...that is for small indies.  MOBA's around about things like skins and occasional new heros.  What else you think they are going to make to generate money?

Nintendo might want a word with you.

You're acting like the only options these companies have is 'risk everything' and 'risk nothing, play to mass appeal'. Not so. Any company with the capital to fund multiple projects simultaneously (which Blizzard has) has the option to experiment with one or more of those projects. Blizzard chooses not to. Not only are they not a company founded on innovation, but they are more than happy to play it safe and engineer their games for what's popular.

Does it makes sense from a business sense? Absolutely. But this is exactly the same thing that EA has been doing, except EA's been doing it by absorbing other companies, while Blizzard just rips their ideas without acquisition.

The ironic thing is that we demonize EA for this, but Blizzard gets all the praise in the world. Blizzard is one of the best at what they do, but they get credit for a lot of things that were someone else's. HotS is a decent bite-sized MOBA in a basic sense, but (like Hearthstone) it actively strips all depth & strategy from the gameplay but the base necessary to still call it a game.

Originally posted by jdizzle2k13
Sounds interesting.  I would definitely like to see a game where strategy and teamwork is more valued than simply killing people as quickly as possible.
 
The only question I would have then, is would this game be able to appeal to enough people to keep it going?  I hope so.

Ditto to this ^

I would love to see more games with depth & strategy to them. I do worry about whether enough people will play it to keep it going. Hopefully i'm in the wrong on this one.

This column seemed a bit contrived, but I like that they do try and cover both sides of each issue.

A short answer is YES. MMOs are becoming too casual. All games are. The details aren't so simple, but the reality is clear. The problem is that most games try and cater to the most common denominator. Meaning they simplify, simplify, simplify until their game is in a state in which most people can easily understand the game with minimal / no effort. Now, at a fundamental level this is actually a good thing. Bringing more people into your game = more revenue, which means you can do more with the game or fund better projects in the future. It's essential to have a decent playerbase for any given game.

That said, most games unfortunately accomplish this by sacrificing depth. Games with depth tend to have more of a learning curve, which a lot of people seem to struggle with. But instead of having games that are easy to understand, difficult to master; we tend to get games that are easy to understand, easy to master. Devs see players struggling with certain game mechanics, and rather than engineer the game to push the players to do better, we get the challenge eroded from the game little by little. Dungeons become easier, DPS rotations less complex, tanking mechanics are stupidly simple nowadays, support roles limited to basically spamming 1-2 heals and an 'oh crap!' spell.

The sad thing is we do get games that are made to be challenging. However most of them get ignored by most players, because they are 'too hard' or they 'don't know what to do'. The few that do survive seem to suffer the same fate of gradually getting simpler and simpler. For example, look at what's happening w/ the MOBA genre, the latest game HotS basically strips most of the strategy out of the game, leaving the bare minimum required to have a working game mode. The focus is almost entirely on fighting (which a lot of people praise it for), but the depth is gone.

Originally posted by rounner
Originally posted by nolf

...  No one had any real idea where this supposed battlefield was.  A guy apparently knew a guy who knew a guy who gave him rough coordinates to it.  We wandered mostly aimlessly, in the general direction we thought we were meant to go. ...

 This isn't rose coloured glasses though, games weren't min-maxed and mapped out as much and people were generally less fussy about a lot because they didn't know any better. Someone posted a few weeks ago that it is the mystery that they are trying to recapture but there is little left. I'd say ironically games are deliberately trying to remove mystery in that they seek balance and fairness which is arguably its antithesis.

This sums it up pretty perfectly.

OP, you need to think about not only the games you were playing back then, but the CLIMATE that you played them in. When MMOs first started to become a thing was during a time when the internet was also still very much growing into... well we didn't know what it would become at the time. Many people still had dial-up, and while there were fan sites for various MMOs, it wasn't anywhere near what we have today.

Back then it was common to spend months just trying to figure out what was actually in the game. People would also often worry about messing up their characters because they didn't know any better, and didn't want to waste months of time spent lvling just to remake due to a mistake. Now? Regardless of how good a game is, all it's mysteries are discovered within days of release. Sometimes even prior to release, depending on how good the datamining is. And it's all up there on the internet for everyone to see.

The irony is that most of what we used to do back in the 'golden age' of MMOs, you can still do in modern games. We just don't anymore. Largely because we are no longer forced to, but also because of incentives. We are creatures driven by incentives, and as a result we will often choose the easiest / most seemingly convenient method to get what we want. Unfortunately when it comes to MMOs, that generally means ignoring 90% of the game's content, looking up spoilers for much of the rest, and skipping what can be skipped to 'get the loot' or reward at the end of the tunnel. A lot of gamers no longer play these games for the journey, they skip the journey to play for the rewards.

It's backwards, but we are as much to blame for it as the developers / games themselves.

Originally posted by vandal5627
Originally posted by aesperus

Honestly, yes, the constant whining & entitlement does get old. However, sadly, this is not going to change without a very significant (and positive) change to the education of the average gamer. And no, I'm not talking about degrees or diplomas, but rather a change of perspective / mindset / understanding.

We have too much entitlement, and it's not limited to MMOs. Many are too used to being catered to individually, to understand how to appreciate games that are not. Furthermore in a lot of ways the average gamer has been much more included in the actual development process (which is a good thing). The problem is, while developers have been making many efforts to be more transparent with us, very few of us have made efforts to be more understanding of developers. We still love to point fingers, find the easiest scapegoat for a problem, and many of us still will demand one feature, and then do a complete 180 once such feature gets implemented. I see it time and time again, enough that I've stopped keeping count.

Too often do we not ask the right questions, treat all problems as equal, only to fall for the same marketing gimmicks and blame others for it. With a more self-concious / aware playerbase I think many of these issues would diminish. People would be more inclined to appreciate games outside of their own comfort zone, which then promotes more innovation. We'd be more willing to support games with concept we like, rather than games that are the most addicting to our own behavior. We'd also probably stop buying games we know are crap.

Sadly, that's not the world we live in, and will likely not happen. As a result there are basically 3 options. Go with the flow & choose from what's available, stop playing, or make your own game without expecting it to make money.

A voice of reason, probably going to go on deaf ears though.  :)

lol, thanks. Wish I could say I wasn't kinda used to it by now :/

But alas these are still basically the only real forums for this genre for fans.

Originally posted by Foomerang

A lot of people say they want something different, but don't want to actually do something different. Same folks that complain about a game being too linear or all there is are dungeons and raids, tend to be the same folks who aren't interested in crafting, gathering, economy, rp, or other non combat activities.
A? ?l?o?t? ?o?f? ?t?h?e?s?e? ?p?e?o?p?l?e? ?a?r?e? ?j?u?s?t? ?P?C? ?e?l?i?t?i?s?t?s? ?w?h?o? ?a?r?e? ?i?n? ?d?e?n?i?a?l?.? You want diverse combat? Do yourselves a favor, p?i?c?k? ?u?p? ?a? ?u?s?e?d? ?p?s?3? ?o?r? ?3?6?0?, buy a bunch of bargain bin Acton games and get your fill. Them maybe you can move on to other MMO game systems and spare us the waterworks.

First part is spot on.

However it has NOTHING to do w/ PC vs. console. Not a damned thing. The same is true across ALL platforms. It's long been known (by the industry) that games that are more innovative don't sell as well as their more generic counterparts. That gamers often will ask for a series of changes, and will just as often reject them if implemented. Not only is this true of games, but the same thing happens in movies, in books, in music. Pretty much anything that relies on creativity suffers this dilemma. Purely original / innovative stuff doesn't tend to sell as well (you can still make a profit, just not nearly as large of one), however innovation is also necessary to drive progression. Once too many people forget that things start to stagnate and go down hill for a while.

When it comes to games, the problem I see over and over and over again (It doesn't even matter what part of the world;) is that too many people are unwilling to try something new. When the majority of us do play something new, we treat it 'too different' from something known and familiar, instead of like a new experience. And that is a problem.

Honestly, yes, the constant whining & entitlement does get old. However, sadly, this is not going to change without a very significant (and positive) change to the education of the average gamer. And no, I'm not talking about degrees or diplomas, but rather a change of perspective / mindset / understanding.

We have too much entitlement, and it's not limited to MMOs. Many are too used to being catered to individually, to understand how to appreciate games that are not. Furthermore in a lot of ways the average gamer has been much more included in the actual development process (which is a good thing). The problem is, while developers have been making many efforts to be more transparent with us, very few of us have made efforts to be more understanding of developers. We still love to point fingers, find the easiest scapegoat for a problem, and many of us still will demand one feature, and then do a complete 180 once such feature gets implemented. I see it time and time again, enough that I've stopped keeping count.

Too often do we not ask the right questions, treat all problems as equal, only to fall for the same marketing gimmicks and blame others for it. With a more self-concious / aware playerbase I think many of these issues would diminish. People would be more inclined to appreciate games outside of their own comfort zone, which then promotes more innovation. We'd be more willing to support games with concept we like, rather than games that are the most addicting to our own behavior. We'd also probably stop buying games we know are crap.

Sadly, that's not the world we live in, and will likely not happen. As a result there are basically 3 options. Go with the flow & choose from what's available, stop playing, or make your own game without expecting it to make money.

I'd be very careful of using 'addiction' as synonymous with 'immersion'. Addiction can be manufactured, farmville is addictive for many people. I wouldn't call it a good game, though. There's a reason the skinnerbox design model has been so popular in recent years with increased frequency. It preys on base human behavior to engineer addiction and to simulate the feeling of 'fun'. In fact most newer games we can thank this model for.

Immersion is something far different, and much more difficult to achieve. I could write books on the topic, but no one really knows entirely how this works. But it absolutely separates good RPGs from bad ones.

If you want addiction, you can go play any generic slot machine game and lose hours of your time and probably even a decent chunk of your bank account. If you want immersion, you need to figure out what is immersive for you (as it's different for every person individually).

Originally posted by Hyanmen
Originally posted by Temp0

You don't need raid gear EVEN IF you raid, its a reward from the raid so the raid obviously can be beaten without it. The expectation is that players want to improve their character, this is kindof a core component of rpgs. Would you say the same thing about character levels? That you werent intended to hit level 50? I fully understand that for some players this is a non-issue and for that, more power to you man. But as far as (at the least combat oriented) endgame goes, I do not like the setup and it marginalizes other content such as maps, hunts, beast quests, etc. and even if you dont think those things should be the best (they're not even good comparatively) there are many ways to add in relevant endgame content to rival raiding that makes more sense.

"Improving one's character" is not exclusive to raising an arbitrary item level so that your character's parameters go up slightly. It can be about anything, from chocobo raising to collecting minions, obtaining the perfect glamour gear or even simple achievements. Just because to you this concept seems alien doesn't mean that players find this sort of progression just as valuable as the gear treadmill. Adding alternative raiding equivalent progression is not as easy as you make out to be either without resorting to common MMO pitfalls like making no lifers the kings of the game.

For me the progression largely revolves around exploring the story and lore. I find value in that because SE has done a lot to build and flesh out the world without making every plot twist and detail obvious from the beginning. I also find value in it because rarely a feature gets implemented that doesn't have a story revolving around it, from barbers to clearing all beastmen quests. In other words SE has made it very rewarding to understand the world because they actually give a crap about it and have given since the time Yoshi-P was made the productor. Surely the raids are a big part of my objectives but not in the way that they are tools to raise my item level. They are simply extremely fun fights to be done with a good group that further drive my agenda in the game, exploring the world SE has created.

Honestly the same thing can be said about WoW. It doesn't stop it from being a raid-focused game, or one based around a vertical progression model. You can choose to ignore it in any game you play, and more power to you if you do; but it doesn't stop it from being there. The top guilds in the game that are focused around progression all focus on coil as their means to do so. Everything else is 'fluff' is 'secondary'. And just as Temp0 says, acquiring such items trivializes the rest of the game. Beating the latest turn of coil makes the rest of the game a joke by comparison.

It's still one of the best made traditional themeparks out there, but you can't pretend it's not one because you enjoy chocobo racing.

Originally posted by Rydeson
I would love to hear about your complex non-role playing combat, and which games those are..  Most people that complain about role combat often use broken bad examples to justify their position.. The reason your car keeps pulling to the right isn't because of snow tires, it's because you have one tire that is flat.. Fix the flat and the car drives just fine, don't argue that snow tires are bad..  :)
There are many games that have combat that doesn't rely on the trinity. And (while I'm sure this may have just been a typo on your end), there is no such thing as 'role playing combat' outside of LARPing. Class-oriented is a thing, and probably what you meant. It's what most games use. As for games that don't rely on the trinity system there are a number, I'll list a few of the MMOs, but because many of them aren't perfect examples, I know people tend to argue about them or discount them entire. However, some of the main ones we have are Eve, Planetside 2, GW2. That said, as a much more tangible example, I'll use a non-MMO game. Final Fantasy. While many of them have the option to turn your party into the standard trinity, ALL of them have enough customization as to that being unnecessary. Furthermore most bosses and encounters are much faster if you don't have your party setup as a typical trinity. I could go on, but this wall of text is getting bloated enough as is.

Originally posted by aesperus

I think you're confusing threat (as in aggro) with threat (as in intelligent battle-strategy).  ??? Merely pointing out that just because the words (threat) are the same, the meanings are not automatically interchangeable. There are different ways in which the word 'threat' is used, and you used one (as applied to video game AI) in relationship to another (as applied to assessing real-world danger). They are not even remotely close to the same thing. The AI threat does the exact opposite of what you do in your real-world examples. The AI is specifically designed so that the character that is the least dangerous (the tank) holds the greatest threat.

Aircraft Carriers get focused because they are the reinforcements. Not because they have the most armor, largest health pool, or best insults. Beep Beep back up the bus.. Who said anything about comparing a AC to a warrior?  I used the AC as one of many examples that a target gets and maintains attention for a number of reasons.. Did you miss the defensive end example that was in the same sentence?  Noticed how I said ALL-PRO defensive end.. Of course he gets special attention because he deserves it.. If it was just your average player, then he wouldn't get double teamed like the all pro.. YOU sir jump to conclusions not said.. 

No one explicitly stated this. But by using real world threat as a comparison to gaming threat, you've implied similarities. This is merely an extension of the above point that the meanings are NOT interchangeable. There are no conclusions here, just examples of why the same word doesn't apply equally to both situations. Because in each case it's being used in a very different way, with a very different meaning. One is a term adopted by a primitive AI system, the other is a term used to assess danger.

You are arguing about a broken formula.. MOBS target whatever the "code" tells them to target.. Everything in a computer game is either "random" or "code"..  (period)...What you are complaining about is a poorly written code, and trying to use it as the poster child why "code" needs to be abolished.. If a mob is ignoring the 200,000 points of damage because some dumbass dev formulated a code that gives the tank 500,000 points of taunt.. The problem is the BAD formula, not the use of a code..  Vanilla EQ was a good start to aggro management.. DPS had to wait for meat shield to get agro before casting.. and casters better learn how much damage they could cast, because often if they chain cast the mobs would peel away from tank and go directly after caster or healer.. Many times as a druid it was my duty to snare the mob so he wouldn't runaway when dying (notice how mobs don't do that anymore).. If the mob resisted my snare, it was my best interest to not recast it again so soon, unless I wanted agro..  If I sat down to meditate, I would pull agro if I was too close to the mob.. If a player was close to death the mob would target that player and ignore any taunts. EQ started off with a good threat(agro) meter formula..

Here is where you start to make assumptions about my meaning. I've never said anywhere about abolishing code, that would be foolish. I know how coding works, and have done a fair amount of programming myself. But I also know enough to know the difference between simplistic / primitive AI, and more advanaced AI. I know that just because a system is popular, doesn't mean it's the only way to solve the same problem, or even the best way. It just means it's the most commonly understood.


You bring up EQ as a good start to aggro management. And you'd be right. The problem is that for most MMOs, the aggro system hasn't EVOLVED since then. They're still basically using a 10+ yr old formula, because it's comfortable. And many of us gamers, have been using the same formula for so long that we ourselves have become convinced that it's the only way of doing things.

- GW2 by contrast, does have threat, but it's not your typically aggro chart (or table if you wish). It's more dynamic, and more similar to a pie chart. Threat is determined by a number of factors; who has the least health, who has the highest toughness, who is closest to the boss, who is doing the most damage, whether or not someone is reviving, etc. Each factor is weighted, and the player with the highest weight of factors is usually the one being targetted by the boss. There are certain bosses with mechanics that supercede this general mechanic, but they are rare. Lupicus being one of the more obvious examples.

It may not be a perfect formula, but it's a lot more complex than the typical linear aggro system w/ taunts.  Agreed all threat / agro formulas should have multiple variables so why are you addressing and confronting what I said.. You obviously misread something somewhere..  BTW. The carrier example, no one targets the carrier anymore if all the planes are shot down, or if the carrier is crippled.. Hell, Battleships are a thing of the past and often drew attention in battle as well in their day.. My position has always been "actions" dictate agro/threat, the tricky part is correctly writing the formula that doesn't break it.. (like WoW did)

I prefer having the choice of playing an Aircraft Carrier, Battleship, Destroyer, Cruisers, Frigates, Corvettes and Submarines as an example.. I think it's crazy to play a Naval vessel that does it all..  I like roles :)

Answered mostly up above.

I'm not sure we disagree on all points, I just think that many of your examples / comparisons are very much flawed. Real combat works very much differently than standard MMO combat. It is chaotic, it requires quick decision making, it's not structured unless you choose to make it so. Games can very much do that same style of combat, we just refuse to let them do so, because it requires more effort on our parts (we have to be more responsible for our choices in game).

I agree with more choice, I like being able to play many different things within a game. I like versatility. What I don't like is how most of these games have roles basically limited to 1 or 2 simple rotations and we applaud it. Right now we have so much flexibility in our single player and smaller-group multiplayer games. And yet for some reason we refuse to believe that any of that could ever be applied to an MMO. Even though that is exactly how this genre was founded.

Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Flyte27

Actually it wasn't that simple as people have pointed out many times.

It was actually. EQ is exactly the same as vanilla WOW when it comes to threat management.

The mobs were just as dumb back then than nowadays, and always attacked the target with the highest threat, gods, dragons and demons as stupid as a rock.

And then, the technology progressed, not only client side,  the scripting and what can be done server side nowadays is exponentially more than what you could do on any vanilla EQ server. If they had tried to put most of the modern WoW raid encounters in EQ back then, players wouldn't have died from the mobs, they would have died from lag. That's pretty much why early EQ relied on those more simplistic mechanics.

So at the end, the raid fights are actually less zergish and more varied and deep nowadays than they have ever been in the early (or even later) EQ times.

I have to backup Jean-Luc here. He's right.

The thing about original EQ is while it had the same formula as most modern MMOs, it was one of the first games of its kind. People playing it didn't come with all this pre-knowledge of 'how an MMO should be' and so every experience felt fresh and unknown. Many boss encounters seemed more complex because people honestly had no idea how they worked. It was all trial and error and experimentation.

Which is true of most games when you approach them with a fresh mind. Everything seems a lot harder until you get more familiar w/ them, then it's all too easy.

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

GW2, would have been an even better game with a trinnity for PvE...

However GW2´s system works perfect for PvP...

They are currently adding taunting... and other stat to build agro... If they make the lacking healing stat more efficient in PvE only and add some healing stuff that works as grouphealing with a high healing stat, they can turn the current game into a semi Trinnity...   adding a system like Wildstar to CC bosses might also add more tacticall means to dungeon bossbattles..

However thats my opinion, some people just love GW2s curent system, i can live with it, no game is perfect and there are so many other things that GW2 is still on top of my list

Actually the opposite. Adding the trinity to GW2 would ruin the combat & class dynamics they spent so much effort creating. It would also remove the need to think about what you're doing. Many people point to the current zerker meta and 'how easy it is' but bring in someone who's new to the game and have them run dungeons in full zerk, and count the deaths. It seems easy to most people now because the game's been out for years now.

The problem w/ GW2's PvE isn't the classes. It's the clunky boss mechanics. Most of the original bosses can be glitched into corners, which makes any kind of trinity irrelevant. It's the reason why you can just on so many bosses and DPS them down. They have easily exploitable mechanics.

By contrast look at some of the newer encounters. Fights like TT, Teq, and VW have a need for a variety of different classes. All of those encounters have parts that need reflect teams, condition teams, in addition to your standard zerk teams. There's also a need for group buffs, and dedicated ressers in some cases. We'll see what happens after HoT, but this is the direction the game seems to be heading in.

Yes they are adding taunt, but it's not the same as what I think a lot of people are assuming. It's much more like a MOBA taunt mechanic. It's extremely temporary, and more of a form of CC than an aggro mechanic. The game already has aggro mechanics, they just aren't as simple as your typical linear threat table. The problem is most players never bother to learn how aggro actually works in this game.

Originally posted by Ender4

All you have done is proven that you do not have a PvP mentality. I don't care if the fight I get into is fair, what I want is to not instantly know what is going to happen. When a group of 5 dudes walks over the hill I want to have to stop, assess the situation, decide if they are friend or foe and react to the situation. Fair doesn't come into the equation, it never does in any serious form of conflict in the real world or in a virtual world. A game that is PvE heavy that has no threat at all of human conflict is just downright boring, it is what killed GW2 and what is likely to kill many future games for me.

The guy who thinks all PvP is high lvl people farming low lvl people and running has never really played a PvP game because that opinion is so ridiculous it is just funny. That is not how real PvP games work at all. That is how the victims who can't get past early levels see games, not the reality.

Can we please stop using this 'PvP mentallity' notion. We aren't insects, we do not have a hive mind. Everyone PvPs for slightly different reasons. Some for competition. Some because PvE is boring. Some because they like ganking. Some like ruining others playing experience (or trolling). There is no universal 'mentallity' revolving PvP. You have players who like it, and players who don't. We don't have a dogma and a membership pen for playing PvP games. We just like them.

For a guy who seems to speak for the rest of us PvPers, I sure find it ironic that you quit a game with isolated PvP because of its PvE.

 

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