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All Posts by aesperus

All Posts by aesperus

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Great article!

Fascinating topic that has been around for a while now. I hope people actually listen to (and understand) your points, because I often find people completely misunderstand this subject matter, and elect to only 'understand' the aspects most convenient to them.

Either way, well done, and I'd love to see more articles of this caliber on this site!

 
Originally posted by SEANMCAD

so the take away answer here thus far is that AAA games have less features than indies because they do more testing.

that might be true, although it appears that it doesnt actually reduce the number of bugs. Bugs in the indie games I have played are only marginally more than in the AAA games. Although to be fair most (but not all) of what I am refering to in AAA is from what I read because I dont play AAA games anymore. They lack the features I care about

Do you have any spare cotton? You seem to have quite a lot jammed in your ears there.

The take away is that you are making a claim, which you have failed to quantify, and are now assuming you were right all along, even though numerous other posters have presented actual counter arguments which you've repeatedly avoided.

1-1, there is not a single indie game (outside of perhaps minecraft, IF you include all the mods people have made themselves) that has demonstrated a higher quantity of features. They may have a higher concentration of features you personally like, but that doesn't mean they have more features total.

What you seem to be trying to say is 'why don't more MMOs have sandbox features', and the answer is simple. Sandbox games (for a while now) have been less popular, so most of the AAA companies haven't been making them. That is changing, though. That said, there are a few non-indie sandbox games which are feature rich (Eve, and Archeage being 2 examples). Heck, if you wanna go back far enough Ultima Online and Anarchy Online would also be on that list. As would Star Wars Galaxies.

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

I read a post which suggest that making ESO more like Skyrim would be an impossible task.

I want to refer specific items that would be easy and items that I personally think many ES fans would think are a standard requirement.

1. skill based, not class based. This is easy, not hard.

2. no factions...what?...player created factions....easy...not hard.

3. true open world...small team MMOs have done this....not imposible

4. make progress not dependent on questing....easy not hard. (I am assuming that progress in this game is much easier if you quest).

 

The implication that making ESO like an ES game is an impossible task is very frustrating to hear. indie developers with far less money have done it.

possible =/= easy.

Else, I see no reason why you shouldn't just run your own game company since you think it's that easy.

Half of what you're suggestion requires major coding and design overhauls. Having no factions would be easier, but still not as simple as turning off a switch. This would also kill pvp (unless they had a method later in the game to choose a faction to support).

As they say, the devil's in the details. Everything sounds simple and like a great idea until you have to actually think about the reality behind implementing them. There is also nothing you can implement in games that doesn't come with some tradeoff. It's all about balancing what you lose with what you gain.

The irony of this, is even if you did all these changes, people would still complain it doesn't 'feel like skyrim'. There are certain fundamental changes a game undergoes when being designed as an MMO. It kind of sucks, but that's how it is.

Originally posted by TheQuietGamer

There has been a general positive trend towards solo-centric game play in mmo's over the last decade or so.  You are no longer required to spend long minutes putting call-outs on general chat to complete content, or to socialise unnecessarily in order to achieve the game's goals.  You can simply solo your way through content, and if a group is required you can just jump onto a group finder and allow the game to do the socialising on your behalf.  

For me this stream-lining of group content towards solo-play has had a positive affect on the mmo genre.  In order for the genre to remain healthy, I would argue that the natural evolution would be the removal of other players from the game entirely.  Only by doing this can you prevent other players from interrupting the levelling process.  In fact I would argue that the removal of other players from mmo's is entirely necessary to keep the mmo alive as a genre.  

Please share your thoughts.     

The next evolution of MMOs are already here. People are just too closed-minded to accept them yet.

Hybridization is the new status quo of MMO gaming. We are quickly moving away from purist MMO designs (like the pure themepark, or the pure sandbox, or the pure RPG, etc etc.) The lines are getting blurred, and with it what constitutes an MMO. We have things like MOBAs, we have FPS-MMOs, we have sandpark and themebox. We have mixed business models, and a variety of themes from traditional fantasy to sci-fi, to sports.

In short, 'MMO' is moving away from being its own genre, and being treated more like a technological evolution of gaming. We will still have virtual worlds, but they won't all be trying to emulate EQ.

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

I dont understand why a lot of developers try and move away from the trinity, first GW2 and now EQN and some others too.

the trinity is a natural mechanic that just works well for MMOs. Instead of moving away from the trinnity developers should add more depth to it... And add better AI to the mobs...   But mving away from the only keymechanic in MMOs that makes people play together is wrong...

i am looking forward to the first game withouth a true dps class, where everyone gets another role on top of dps...

-  tank

- healer

- cc

- buffer

- debuffer

-puller

- cleanser

just give every class one or more of these main roles.... And allow everyone to dps on top of that....  And make all of those roles required for hard content

To answer your main question: because it's boring. After all, Madden works, but to have to design every version of madden for your entire career, that would suck. Most designers (and all good ones) got into game design because they want to make 'cool' or interesting games. They want to try new things, and you can't do that if you are constantly remaking the same system over and over with a new paint job.

That said, what you are suggesting is a huge paradox to your original point. You're advocating use of the trinity, and then saying they 'should add more depth', and then list off 7 different roles as an example. What you have just done is produced a non-trinity concept model. You can't have it both ways. The whole point of the trinity model is to simplify combat, and dumb it down so that anyone can understand it. It's simply the most accessibe combat design currently in existence (for RPGs). And yes, it does work, but that doesn't mean it's 'the best'. It just means it's the simplest.

There are numerous other games with non-trinity combat models, and many of them are very fun and more challenging than the trinity. The trinity is easy to use, but limited in the types & variation of challenges you can throw at the player. It's mostly about 'can you press your rotation in the right order' and 'can you stay out of the red circles'. By adding things like 'better AoE', more archetypes, etc you are moving away from the trinity. Or you are implemented a bunch of stuff that will get ignored (if you didn't implement it correctly) in favor of the base trinity roles.

Originally posted by DMKano

OP - sorry but this simply is not how it goes - EVER.

Technical aspects of the game are never discussed before the actual "idea" of what the basic game is first greenlit internally.

Game designers create a  document with basic game vision, gameplay elements, some concept art etc.. - pretty much like what you would see on a Kickstarter page and they sell this idea internally. 

This is the beginning of games - not discussion of 30 day gameplay and open/instaced world.

This ^

I'm not sure where people get these impressions from, or if they simply just 'guess' the facts. But in the real world a conversation like what was in the OP would simply never happen.

To start, he seems to be confused as to the differences between a CEO, a marketting manager, a designer, etc. etc. The CEO is primarily concerned with keeping the company running and profitable. Their meetings typically talk about projections, how much money the company needs to make, what projects are / aren't profitable enough, and what potential projects would be worth investing in.

Designers, as you point out Kano, are responsible for creating design docs & proof-of-concepts on potential projects. These then get passed up the chain and determined by people like the CEO, & EP as to which ones will get picked up, which are promising but should be revised / looked at, and which should be scrapped.

This doesn't even get into the inner workings between departments like the programmers, animators, concept artists, tech artists, writers, etc.

- The reality behind game development is quite a bit different than most gamers seem to think. And the OP seems to share in these delusions of the cartoonistically sinister / idiotic CEO micromanaging the corruption of his games.

Originally posted by woodyfly
From what I've seen, combat seems to be slow and boring but I do consider that I might enjoy if I personally try it. Did anyone think they would hate the combat but actually liked it when they played the game?

I did, and tbh the combat in this game still isn't my fav.

However, it's simple enough that everyone can get into it, and it's really the graphics of the game that drive it. It looks great.

There are certain abilities that also feel really nice to use (getting clutch flares, jumps, limit breaks, banes, etc.). There is also a pretty decent range of playstyles. You have some classes that are really simple to play (like bard), and you have other classes that are somewhat complex (like summoner, dragoon). You have some that seem complex and are easy, and some that seem easy but are somewhat complex.

It really depends on what type of games you're looking for. If you enjoy most MMOs, and you like final fantasy, you'll probably enjoy this game.

If you're looking for a game with very tricky / challenging gameplay, or are not a fan of final fantasy, this may not be the best game for you.

Originally posted by Loke666

If a game tanks because it can't keep players interested or isn't fun enough making it F2P is just putting a band-aid on the problem. Most of us have limited time and while we might try out a F2P game it still needs to be fun to keep us interested.

As I see it, ESO have serious issues it needs to fix. Making the game F2P could give the devs a second chance but they still need to fix those issues. Phasing, bots and really lame dungeons is a disaster no matter what payment model you use.

If I were Zenimax I would worry about getting the game better, once that is done you can talk about if changing payment model is a good idea or not.

Pretty much this ^.

People (and companies) put too much emphasis on business model nowadays. The truth of the matter is that you can make just about any business model work. It's a question of finding what is 'best' for the game you want to make. This isn't to say that there isn't a very clear trend towards F2P currently (both in popularity AND potential revenue), but it's not as simple as just slapping the phrase 'F2P' on a game and adding a cash shop. It has to be done right.

The one huge benefit of F2P is that it completely removes barriers of entry (as long as you have a decent computer, ofc). However, that benefit does not matter if you haven't made sure your core gameplay attracts players. If people arent enjoying your game, they will leave a F2P version of it just as much as they won't buy a sub. So making the game fun is priority #1, then you can worry about the best way to monetize it.

Problem is, many companies try and do this backwards, and it's even worse for those that let themselves get into a position of desperation before making the tough decisions.

Originally posted by Loke666
Originally posted by stevebombsquad
Originally posted by Malabooga

Thats what all the zerglings say.

People generally do that which is easiest and most effective........... 

Yeah, the problem is how you can make a MMO not so zerg centric and it is not that easy. In FPS games you tend to die easy and hand-grenades tend to stop people from zerging but adding something similar in fantasy that is balanced is very hard indeed.

You could use some kind of serious buff for people in a perfect battle-formation  (like a shieldwall)  which would be easier for smaller groups and be bad for general zerging around but that tend to be very complicated and might take the fun out of things...

Raising the damage of siege weapons would be a good start though, it would at least force attackers to spread out more. 

Any massive PvP tends to get zergy and discussing ideas on how to fix that would be a rather interesting thread.

Aside from the not-so-obvious fact that literally every online multiplayer game has zerging, the solution is generally fairly simple. Don't implement AoE caps for everything. That was probably Anet's biggest mistake when it came to WvW. The counter to a large zerg is always to have better coordination, and AoE. Funnel them into smaller spaces where their numbers are less beneficial, and AoE them down. This is where seige equipment was supposed to help (and they keep going back & forth on how powerful they want siege to be).

All games have zerging, even trinity ones. People tend to function like herd animals, as a primal instinct. Safety in numbers, leeching, etc. etc. It's also one of the oldest strategies in warfare. However, instead of crying about people have learned how to deal with it, and most of these strategies can be used in any game. Sadly, the average player doesn't attempt to use any real strategy / coordination, and thus we have the stigma.

It's been a while since I took WvW seriously (too much guild drama / I didn't like the AoE cap change), but I used to run with a guild that quite successfully (and consistantly) would take on zergs multiple times our own (60-100 players vs. our 10-20) and win. It all came down to strategy & coordination, and forcing the larger force to repeatedly make bad trades & decisions.  Was a lot of fun, and a huge part of why I enjoy mass - pvp more than most other pvp games. It offers a lvl of strategy that most games just can't deliver. Like combining twitch skills with a larger game of chess.

Originally posted by Distopia

Wish I'd have seen this before responding in the other thread. What's missing is players who actually want to be a part of a community. People play today in large part for competition, bragging rights, and leader boards. Their idea of community is someone to compete against. If it's not about competition, it's about who can help get them what they want.

Ever heard the line "what's the point? WHat do I gain from it?" that's today's gaming community in a nutshell. EVerything is about rewards and bragging rights to these folks, community is the last thing on their mind. It's not even about the idea of just coming together and having fun to most of them, as if it's just about fun, that means there's no purple item at the end of the trek.

This ^

There are still some people who understand community, and seek out such experiences. However, they are NOT the norm, and are very much the minority in today's society.

Those experiences we remember from that first generation of MMOs are from a very different time. During that time most people wanted to be part of a community, to hang out w/ friends online and dick around. To have FUN. Now? Most people don't care about that, they want another skinner box.

Believe it or not, there are newer MMOs (GW2 being one of them) which completely nurture socializing, and hanging out w/ friends. However, most people ignore it, because they'd rather focus on being the first to get new shinies.

Originally posted by RudyRaccoon

I don't get it, it seems that a majority of players are saying to newer players or players that have never played them before like myself not to play Jedi Sentinel or Sith Marauder for PvP saying that if you play as one then your are compromising the team. This is probably down to a recent nerf to the class as well as the class being considered a glass cannon and they even say they are a hard class to learn.

But really, should I take their word for granted? To be honest I find it extremely baffling that these people would say this, like if they are taking the game too seriously and are really overreacting. Like in any game, we should play whatever we want, not put restrictions down of what not to play.

So are they right or are they dead wrong?

They aren't wrong, just greatly over-exaggerating.

When it comes to newer players, ranged = easier than melee. This is true for just about every action-oriented pvp game.

That said, in just about every pvp game, the bulk of the player base is fairly clueless when it comes to balance issues. Most of those people are just regurgitating crap they've heard somewhere else. Very few players actually take the time to take a hard look at how the classes work together and against each other. Let alone crunch the numbers to see just exactly how different one class is from another.

At the end of the day it comes down to this: play what you want.

As a long-time pvper, across many games, I can tell you that it all comes down to playstyle. Play what feels comfortable to you, and you'll learn the rest with practice / experience. For example, when I first started playing SWTOR everyone kept telling me how crappy snipers were. Then I would just run around dominating. Then they would rectify their statements and say 'oh, well they're just ass in pvp'. At which point they'd start seeing me dominate in PvP. Now snipers are considered 'OP'. The same thing happened a while back with the marauder / sentinel classes. People called them ass, and for a time I just believed what I heard. Then I decided to try one, just for fun. Holy crap were they over-exaggerating. The class did have some issues dealing w/ sustained CC, however you can absolutely destroy with those classes if you know what you're doing.

In most games, players will treat a 5% difference in power, as a 100% gurauntee that you'll lose. And the reality is, most players aren't skilled enough for that minor power difference to matter (one way or the other). So play what you want, don't worry about the naysayers. If you're good, people will want to play with you regardless. And who knows, you may end up being one of those players that changes popular opinion on a class within the game.

Originally posted by Jaldren

Honest and simple question:

I have been playing for over 15 years MMOs, most of the time as healer. Playing a game without the trinity system is extremely weird for me, despite the game being so good (exploration, social events, constant updates...)

But my worry is: what about endgame and dungeons? no trinity means no pre-defined roles, so how are 5 DPS going to finish dungeons?

Please elaborate your answer, would like to know your thoughts and expand my knowledge on this matter

Anet touted that you could complete any dungeon with any combination of classes in the game. So far, after a year of playing the game this has remained true (with the possible exception of highest lvl fractals). Furthermore, what is being considered 'viable' in PvP is constantly changing, with all classes having some degree of usefulness.

However, this doesn't prevent the players themselves from limiting their own groups based on preconceptions, laziness, or convenience. I've played every class in the game currently at max lvl (lvl 80, with exotics); -i know, i have a lot of alts. Out of my many characters, most of them I've been told were useless / unplayable / crap at varying times during my play. I still remember playing necromancer at launch, being told how useless they were, even as I was walking around soloing crap most other players were struggling with. However, I've completed every dungeon in the game countless times. I've done more 'unplayable' class combinations than I can remember, just for fun. I've completed dungeons w/ 5 thief groups, 5 necro, 5 engi, 5 mesmers, etc. etc.

And really, what it comes down to is this: This game treats classes like a toolbox. You're given a bunch of tools to choose from, and it's up to you to choose which tools work best for which fight / dungeon. If you coordinate with your teammates, make sure that each person is equipping skills that will help the team as a whole, you will have little trouble clearing most dungeons in the game (just remember to dodge / stay out of AoE). If not, the combat will seem highly chaotic, uncontrolled, and unbeatable.

It's all in your playstyle, and whether or not you make the effort to play with others that have similar mindsets. it helps to view combat in this game less like a trinity (do we have dps, tanks, or heal/support?) and more like a combination of abilities. 'Okay, so the enemy mobs will be using these attacks, and have a lot of ranged damage. Maybe we should use skills that reflect ranged attacks / blind the enemy to minimize how much damage we take'.

Hope that helps.

 

So much missinformation in this thread.

AAA MMOs are far from extinct. And there are still some on the horizon as we speak. There are other projects we've heard of, that we don't yet know what they will be about, sure, but there are projects on the horizon.

The only thing that is clear at this time is the following:

What constitutes an MMO is changing. Pure themeparks, and pure sandboxes are quickly becoming a thing of the past. More and more games are abandoning 'purist' design models in favor of more hybridization. This may bother some, but all practical metrics show that (if you want your studio to succeed and be profitable) this is the smart decision.

The subscription model is becoming a thing of the past. I know many people praise the sub here, but the majority of the market favors F2P or B2P models atm. This is why so much focus has been on how to properly implement F2P models into your game over the past few GDCs and design talks.

MMOs as we used to know them (10-20 years ago) just cannot thrive in today's market. There are many things we miss about them, but we also view them with VERY rose-tinted glasses. Many of the issues that game with those oldschool designs have been abandoned for a reason. Most gamers dont have enough time to spend 5-10 hours a day grinding. Most people do not enjoy getting griefed constantly.

The genre is changing, not dying. And the sky is still not falling.

Originally posted by Gdemami

This is old news...

It's too mature topic/information for these boards anyway.

This ^

What people should be taking away from the vid is the reality behind game development. Things like costs, and what some games have to do to remain functioning. Something the video illustrates is how (most) game developers don't actually want to do these kinds of things to their games. Most people get into game development because they enjoy games, gaming, and want to make good games. However, in the real world, people also need to worry about things like eating, paying bills, and providing for their family. This is why some of the better developers tend to alternate between standard productions (often to refered to as 'bread & butter' work), and passion projects (interesting ideas that generally do not make much, if any, money).

Instead, many people (especially on these boards) just use this as another excuse for a witchhunt against developers. Even though the fault often lies (at least partially) in the gamer's wallets.

Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Loke666
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by sumdumguy1
I agree the layout of Lions Arch was annoying.  Haven't played in awhile but never liked the layout any of the times I played it.

It was not so much about the layout, which was fine to me, but the fact that all people went there, leaving so many amazing cities totally underpopulated (Divinity's Reach for instance).

What ANet (and actually any MMORPG developer) should do is make all their cities linked with an easy to access FREE portal network, so that no city would be better than another.

Like Asura gates? Yeah, great idea except that there always been free portalling between all the cities and LA.

People tend to hang out in one city if there just is one faction, personally I do most of my crafting in DR though, like it better.

Sorry man, nope. Not free.

All the Asura gates are free. It's the map teleporting that cost money.

Travel expenses pretty much never affect city population. It always comes down to convenience. It doesn't matter what game it is, players will always gravitate to whatever city has the most convenient features / service, and the most of them. If you have a game with factions, each faction will do the same for their faction's respective cities.

In GW2, LA was the one city that you had access to everything in one clumped location. If you wanted to go out and quest in the world there was the travel fee, but it was negligible to anyone that knew how to sell vendor trash. Outside dungeons needed to be ported to regardless of what city you were in, so that didn't really help.

LA had all the crafts (as did all cities), but it also had convenient WvW gates, Fractals, a nearby auction house, and sPvP by default would kick you back to Lion's Arch once you left.

If you look at Guild Wars 1, more of the cities tend to be populated, because there isn't really a central hub for everything in the game. Different cities offer different things, different forms of pvp, different skills, different expansion content, armor, etc.

Originally posted by seraphynx
Originally posted by Sovrath
 
In a tab target game like say Rift for example since PvP gear is normalized if I outplay or am more "skilled" then my opponent I will win 100% of the time no question..so I don't see how people can generalize skill based to equal twitch based

If gear is completely normalized, then the game would be more 'skill-based'.

However no games have perfectly normalized gear yet. There is always a discrepancy between the best & sub-par gear. Even in Rift. That said, some games put a harsh cap on how much gear actually does for you. Whether or not a game focuses on victory through gear(power) acquisition, or strength through player control determines whether or not a game is 'skill-based' or not.

This is why games like Guild Wars are generally refered to as 'skill-based'. While both games have an amount of gear progression, it is primarily how you customize your character, its skills, and how well you use these decision that determine who wins a battle. In both PvP and PvE. Rift requires some degree of skill as well, and I used to enjoy the PvP quite a lot, but how strong your character was, was largely determined by passive factors.

Originally posted by Benedikt

Originally posted by aesperus

Originally posted by Utinni
This is just another buzzword people use to make themselves feel better. I can't think of an MMO pvp system that really takes skill. Most telegraphs are super simple to land, and almost all games work off of a system where you have a reaction for every reaction, similar to baseball.

It's not a buzzword, and it's not something to be offended by either.

A game being 'skill-based' isn't a snipe at people playing 'non-skill-based' games. All it refers to is what the primary determining factor is for success / victory / winning a game. All games have varying degrees of skill. That is not what is being debated.


Originally posted by aesperus

Originally posted by SpottyGekko
Originally posted by DMKano

Skill based combat is the one where the use of aimbot programs and/or macros makes you pwn other players with ease.

+100% !

 

The term "skill-based combat" is usually linked to games where twitch skills (mouse-cursor aiming, circle-strafing, active dodging, etc.) are the deciding factor in the outcome of a battle. The term implies that physical attributes (fast reflexes and good eye/hand co-ordination) are what determines "skill", not the player's mental acuity.

 

So, if you can execute complex keypress combo's with one hand whilst using the other to move the mouse accurately at lightspeed, you are "skilled".

If not, you're a "bad"...

Actually, no it doesn't.

These are just things people are interpreting, because they are either trying to use the term as a stigma, or they are taking the term as a slight and getting offended over it.


actually, unlike skill-based vs level based character progression, where skill-based really is neutral term referring to the fact that your character progression is not based on gaining overall levels but on increasing particular character skill, term "skill based combat" is, well i would not as far as saying offensive, but it is MENT as demeaning.

because by saying "i prefer skill based combat" you actually are saying that the other types of combat are not skill based, you are more or less saying "those are beneath me, i have a skill"

edit:

if you want a neutral term, i would say "twitch based combat"

Firstly, at no time was I referring to progression. That is a separate topic & a separate issue.

What is being discussed is essentially game design in so much as the difference between players of the same lvl in a game that is skill-based vs. a game that is not.

As to whether this is 'meant' as demeaning is ENTIRELY inferred by the reader. Anything can be taken as a slight, but that doesn't mean that it is. The definition for skill based, has nothing to do with how good or bad a player is. It just doesn't. It's similar to how someone being an 'intellectual' has nothing to do with whether or not a person is smart or not. But many people take it to be so.

In short you (and other similar-minded gamers) are focusing too much on the 'skill' portion of the term 'skill-based', and ignoring the second half completely. 'Based'. Just because a combat system is based around player skill, does not mean that a system which isn't based around player skill doesn't require skill. Conversely, just because a combat system is based around player skill, does not mean it has no passive components contributing to the outcome.

Being offended by the term is a personal choice, and just shifting the term to 'twitch-based combat' is a dodge at best, without even getting to the issue at hand. There are plenty of examples of 'skill-based' games that do not rely on twitch skills. Again, chess is an example of this; as are RTS games (strategy), and puzzle games (problem solving).

RPGs, on the other hand, are primarily NOT based around skill. They are largely based around the journey, telling a story and acquiring more and more power. While all RPGs have varying degrees of skill in them, the outcome is mostly determined by the items you obtain along your journey, as well as character level. Few RPGs defer from this, with Zelda being an example of an RPG that is more skill-based than not. However, most older MMORPGs are based around the traditional RPG concept of the epic journey, and acquiring more and more powerful items.

As a result, most MMOs are not skill-based but rather based around passive upgrades in power, that are THEN utilized through skill. It is only in the last few years that we are seeing MMOs that put a much larger emphasis on player-skill, and skill-caps (the amount of skill(s) / difficultty required to master an aspect of the game) as the primary factor.

- Another way to look at it is as an order of operations. What does the game put first? Passive upgrades, or how you use a base set of items and abilities?

Originally posted by Kaladin

Here's the thing.

The term is usually pitted against tab-targeting for a very simple reason, non-tab-targeting games have more elements to pay attention to.

The games people will call "skill based" have all of the elements that a tab-targeting game does, but adds a heavy weight on positioning and aiming as others have mentioned.  The more elements to being effective at battle there are, the higher the skill cap is to be the best.  And that is it, more skilled players will be on top regardless, but from my experience, the skill caps are raised for games that have left tab-targeting behind.

Well said.

Originally posted by SpottyGekko
Originally posted by DMKano

Skill based combat is the one where the use of aimbot programs and/or macros makes you pwn other players with ease.

+100% !

 

The term "skill-based combat" is usually linked to games where twitch skills (mouse-cursor aiming, circle-strafing, active dodging, etc.) are the deciding factor in the outcome of a battle. The term implies that physical attributes (fast reflexes and good eye/hand co-ordination) are what determines "skill", not the player's mental acuity.

 

So, if you can execute complex keypress combo's with one hand whilst using the other to move the mouse accurately at lightspeed, you are "skilled".

If not, you're a "bad"...

Actually, no it doesn't.

These are just things people are interpreting, because they are either trying to use the term as a stigma, or they are taking the term as a slight and getting offended over it.

Chess, is a SKILL based game. You dont have to be strong, or fast, or have good aim. However, you do have to be smart, tactical, and out smart your opponent.

All skill-based means is 'the game relies primarily on player skill to determine the outcome'. It's really that simple. It doesn't distinguish the type of skill, or the amount, just that it's the primary driving force of whatever game you are playing. It doesn't have anything to do with how good (or bad) players are who play a certain game, that's just people being ignorant on the internet. When dealing with MMOs there tends to be 2 types of games, gear-based (or stat-based) which rely primarily on passive factors & rng to determine the outcome of a fight. Then you have skill-based (which rely primarily on player reactions, strategy, positionin, aim, etc.), which rely primarily on player-skill to determine the outcome.

One type of game is primarily passive, the other is primarily active. That's all there is to it, and that's why so many action-combat games are labeled 'skill-based'. Because action-combat is primarily an 'active' style of gameplay/

Originally posted by Utinni
This is just another buzzword people use to make themselves feel better. I can't think of an MMO pvp system that really takes skill. Most telegraphs are super simple to land, and almost all games work off of a system where you have a reaction for every reaction, similar to baseball.

It's not a buzzword, and it's not something to be offended by either.

A game being 'skill-based' isn't a snipe at people playing 'non-skill-based' games. All it refers to is what the primary determining factor is for success / victory / winning a game. All games have varying degrees of skill. That is not what is being debated.

When someone says a game is 'skill-based' they mean the game primarily defers to player skill when determining outcome. There are quite obvious examples of both skill, and non-skill based games. And there are some that fall within the grey area in between (like MOBAs).

It's very hard to argue that some MMOs (like WoW) are mostly determined by player skill, when the power creep between gear is so insanely huge, that it is now at the point where a newer WoW player is doing thousands of damage, while a fully decked out vet is doing 100s of thousands if not millions of damage. Other MMOs (primarily newer ones), not only try to minimize these gear differentials, but they also allow for players to mitigate much of what an enemy is doing to them via proper timing, positioning, aiming, etc.

That is the very definition of 'skill', not who has the better legendaries. This doesn't mean that a game like WoW  doesn't have a certain degree of skill, but rather that it is not the primary determining factor. It doesn't matter how skilled you are in WoW, you aren't doing top-tier endgame raids in white gear. It's mathematically impossible. Same in PvP. However in a skill based game it can be possible, through proper timing, positioning, aiming, etc. And indeed, in games like GW2 i have beaten less skilled higher lvl (and better geared) players as crappy underleveled / undergeared toons.

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