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All Posts by aesperus

All Posts by aesperus

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5063 posts found
Originally posted by Ecoces
Originally posted by Ozmodan
Originally posted by aesperus
 

Sorry I have to disagree with your perspective.  In any team game you always have to deal with various levels of skill.  There is absolutely no excuse for anyone to ever get upset with someone just because their skill level is not up to yours.  It is a GAME and you are supposed to have fun at it and so is everyone else on your team.   The trouble with MOBA's is they are populated with a large number of poor losers who cannot grasp the fact that doing your best is the point, winning is something that cannot always be achieved.

to some the "fun" part of the game is winning. its like any competitive game, you go to your local basketball court and trust me people will get mad at you if you keep screwing up.

MOBAs are competitive and very team based all it takes is one person to screw up over and over before the whole game gets out of hand.

Well said, I think this pic kind of sums up the point clear enough, if not in a bit absurd way, lol.

Originally posted by Ozmodan
Originally posted by aesperus

As with any multiplayer game, the best way to 'enjoy it casually' is to team up with friends, or join a group of like-minded people.

***snip for length***

However, if you're determined to be content with not familiarizing yourself with these games strategies or not paying attention, then you also need to be content with knowing that you winning is going to be primarily out of your hands. This also affects the other players on your team, so you need to find people who are also okay with that reality. For some that is fine, for those more well versed in MOBAs it's boring and defeats the purpose of playing such games.

Sorry I have to disagree with your perspective.  In any team game you always have to deal with various levels of skill.  There is absolutely no excuse for anyone to ever get upset with someone just because their skill level is not up to yours.  It is a GAME and you are supposed to have fun at it and so is everyone else on your team.   The trouble with MOBA's is they are populated with a large number of poor losers who cannot grasp the fact that doing your best is the point, winning is something that cannot always be achieved.

There is a difference between getting mad at someone for being unskilled, and being annoyed at someone for constantly doing stupid things.

For example, when I play a MOBA I don't care if you are bad. If you miss a lot that sucks, but we all have bad games. If you are building a really bad item build, I may suggest some changes that would improve your effectiveness (which sometimes people listen to, and other times people get defensive about). What I do care about is if I have someone who is say level 5, trying to solo 3 lvl 10s by himself, and constantly getting himself killed as a result.

That is stupidity, and that kind of thing happens a lot in these games. Will I start raging at the guy? Usually no, but I will ask them to stop doing it. Or suggest that they farm some more so they can get on a more even power lvl to the opponents they are fighting.

Doing you're best is definitely a noble goal, and the best focus to avoid stressing yourself out. However that isn't the objective of the game. The objective is to win, just as the objective of an RPG is to beat the story. You may have your own personal goals, but those are indeed separate. And, well, personal to you.

Let me re-emphasize that these are first and foremost games of strategy. Teamwork and tactics are very important to these games. Not just personal skill. Working with your team to achieve a common goal (winning) is a big part of the game, even if you end up failing. Playing for yourself is counter-productive to these games, because again they are team games. You win as a team, you lose as a team.

I've never said raging at people is okay, but there is a certain level of understanding people should have if they are playing at the same level. If I que up for a top-ranked league match, I do not want to be dealing with someone who doesn't know what the jungle buffs do, or how the lanes work. If I queue up for a low lvl game with some friends, I fully expect most people to be learning the game still.

 

Originally posted by Kaneth
Originally posted by bcbully

So you don't really want to put the time in to be good, but want good results....

This isn't exactly what was said in the article. It talks about a real problem in the MOBA genre, the overly steep learning curve.

Any other videogame I have played throughout my life has taught you along the way how to play the game. Then comes the moment when the game really unleashes, and you are better prepared to face the challenge. MOBAs have a ton of moving parts, and unless you're playing in a premade group (which is really the only way to play a MOBA), you're going to wind up having a mostly horrible time.

The individual learning curves aren't bad. Lane management, group composition, learning a build (including what items to buy and when) and of course just learning to play in general. However, most MOBAs throw you into the frying pan out the gate as they all expect you to have played MOBAs since the original DoTA. Couple this with the notoriously toxic communities that MOBAs tend to have, and you have the article that is written.

MOBA is a genre where it tends to eat its own young (aka noobs) and then wonders why the genre has a poor reputation.

Heroes of the Storm does alleviate many of the problems with learning curve in a moba. Since you can focus on a character and don't have to worry about someone else choosing it. The curve doesn't seem to be as steep either, since teams level up as a group so that a noob doesn't get left behind. However, there is still a huge difference between someone who knows how to play and someone who doesn't, which is good. At the same time, the community really varies. I've played matches with some awesome people and then some other matches I wonder if I am playing DoTA2 or LoL.

The neat thing about MOBAs is that they are one of the most perfect genres for MLG type of gaming, since there is a tremendous focus on individual skill. The problem with MOBAs is that many seem to act like they are anywhere near the level of a "pro" during an everyday match.

The difference is that most other genres have been watered down through decades of handholding. They're simple enough that any child can play it.

By comparison look at games like chess, there are fairly easily understood base rules, but the learning curve comes from learning how to apply those rules to different levels of strategy; and then using that knowledge to predict your opponent.

MOBAs are very similar in that way. Take smite for example, you can learn everything you need to know about the base mechanics in about 10minutes. What buffs the game has, laning mechanics, how much gold you get per minion. Where most new players struggle is the mass amount of items and god skills.

HotS does attempt to solve this problem, but it does so by stripping away most of the complexity & strategy these games offer. As i've compared in another thread, it's essentially taking chess, and making it checkers. Sure it's fun enough, but the intricacy is gone. You still get that feel of knocking around pieces, but it's very shallow.

- I honestly don't think the answer is to water these games down. There may be some presentation changes that can be made. And some of the recommendation (honor) systems have had a positive effect on player toxicity. However, at a certain point, people need to take the initiative to learn to play the game. There is a plethora of resources available, and people willing to help if you ask for it. I wasn't very active in MOBAs until maybe a year ago when I started getting into SMITE. I was awful when I first started, but I took it upon myself to learn the game I was playing. I wouldn't dare to play an MMO and expect to beat every raid without understanding any of the mechanics. MOBAs are no different, there's just more emotions flying around because most people care about winning.

Originally posted by Archaegeo

He isn't asking to be good without putting in the time, he is asking if there is a place for casuals in MOBA's.

And as a casual player, I have to say its hard to justify.  The communities are extremely toxic, which doesn't make a new player feel welcome or like they want to bother to get better.

And worse they pride themselves on their toxicity

There absolutely are places for casuals in MOBAs. Hell, all of the well known MOBAs have casual game modes that are more popular than the competitive ones. Things like ARAM / Assault are 100% casual game modes.

That said, there is a massive difference between 'being a casual player' and refusing to learn, or use your brain while playing the game. These are team based strategy games. Your decisions affect those around you, and it's extremely selfish to expect your random teammates to be okay with every choice you make.

It is the internet, there are asshats, but even in League (largely considered one of the more toxic communities) you will find people willing to help you if you ask for it, and mention you are new. The problem is, most people don't do this. They adopt a mentality of 'i'm a casual player, i don't care enough, deal with it'. And that's not okay.

You don't need to be a pro player, or in diamond / platinum leagues. You don't need to have a perfect build, or be carrying every game. You just need to be conscious of the fact that you're playing a game of strategy, and one which your decisions affect those around you. You don't queue up to play a game of chess because you like kicking pieces around. You don't play MOBAs if you aren't willing to learn at least the basics of how the game works.

As with any multiplayer game, the best way to 'enjoy it casually' is to team up with friends, or join a group of like-minded people.

You talk about the learning curve like it's a roadblock 'to the fun part'. I've heard this from numerous people, but there's something that you need to keep in mind. These games are first and foremost games of strategy. It's like chess with fantasy heroes.

So, like chess, you can play it in a way in which you ignore most of the strategy involved. And that's fine. You can still have fun with it. But these games have a good amount of depth to the gameplay. Things like last hitting, itemization, leveling priorities, objectives, etc. etc. etc. are all part of the strategy involved. Skipping them to get to the fun part may work best for you, but you are actively ignoring large chunks of the gameplay because it requires too much effort on your part.

Keep in mind that you are going to experience players with a wide variety of skill / game comprehension. As with any online game you will sometimes run into jerks who give you a hard time, but that's true of all games. Best to just ignore them and move on. However this doesn't automatically mean that everyone who criticizes you ingame is a jerk, or wrong. Sometimes people have valid complaints you need to be aware of. Such as buying an item that doesn't make sense for your character or build, not paying attention to your surroundings, etc.

However, if you're determined to be content with not familiarizing yourself with these games strategies or not paying attention, then you also need to be content with knowing that you winning is going to be primarily out of your hands. This also affects the other players on your team, so you need to find people who are also okay with that reality. For some that is fine, for those more well versed in MOBAs it's boring and defeats the purpose of playing such games.

There's been a few attempts across multiple games to implement such a feature. Some worked better than others.

The problem is that the role of the GM is to essentially dictate content. Which is basically what the developer's do currently. Now you can have player generated content (i.e. the foundary), but such systems tend to get easily exploited amongst most MMOs.

The result being that it's hard to allow total freedom like you'd enjoy being the GM of a traditional tabletop. If you exploit to much as a tabletop GM you may get a bad campaign that you'll have to start over, but it's still a temporary problem. In an MMO, it can ruin the entire game, and there are no do-overs.

Having GMs could work, but it tends to work better with temporary content & only a few players. Having a persistant world shared by thousands of people means that you can't really have multiple people dictating how that world gets shaped in it's entirety. You either need to fragment the world severely (instanced GM quests, for example), or you need to severely limit the powers one has as a GM.

Originally posted by filmoret
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Malabooga

WvWvW has been insanely popular.

and zerg vs zerg....what bunch of poo....its massive pvp and if you call any group over 5  zerg...yes it will ALWAYS be zerg vs. zerg most of the prime time. No, you wont see 300 5 man groups running around PvPing. because ill form a zerg and gladly run over all your 300 5 man groups :) then youll form a zerg and we got ball rolling again :)

you dont get to beat imposible odds....every time. No your 5 man group is not uber and if it manages to take out 100 people of equal skill that just means theres someting terribly wrong with the game.

I don't think people expect to beat 10+ opponents with 5.  It can happen, but it's rare and not an expectation.

The bigger expectation is that PVP should revolve around skillful competition, and obviously the majority of games with massive PVP don't police team balance, which results in PVP not decided by skill (instead it's decided by whether you happened to join the overpopulated faction.)

 I never saw a 5 man take out a 20 man in GW2 but I have seen it happen in ESO.  When you become one of the elite you will do things that normal players think is impossible.  Just goto thornblade and look for Anomyous Elf's group which sometimes only has 5-10 people and they are holding off entire zergs by themselves.  The new change to 1.6 will be interesting to see how it turns out.  I really don't have a good answer on why 99% of the market ignores massive pvp.  I don't see much difference between 5 people trying to kill each other and 500.  Except its much easier to die.  1 Epic player can be a king in a 5 man fight but he is just a normal player mixed in with 500.

Really? Cause I have. I've been in 5 mans that've done it, and there are videos that demonstrate this online. There's even a few people that have proven to go 1v10+ and succeed. Medicat, Shattercat, & Koroshi are a few that come to mind off the top of my head, but there are plenty of other players at that level of play (or even better).

And tbh, I've found this to be true of every mass PvP game I've played. Even the ones w/ horrible class/skill balance. It all comes down to how large of a gap there is between skill / game knowledge, and coordination. Better players will be way more efficient with each and every skill. They'll make them count, and they'll make them count vs. multiple opponents simultaneously. Simulary, against players of comparable skill / coordination, the numbers need to be a lot more even (regardless of game balance).

Why the market majority tends to avoid this type of gameplay is simple. Look at 90% of games made in the past 20 years. Almost all of them are made to make the player feel like they are an absolute badass. You are the hero, and you alone are better than the rest. It doesn't matter how smart, or how skilled you are, the game ensures you succeed. It feels good. No one likes to feel like they've been pounded into nothing. But all PvP games have to allow for such possibilites. This gets amplified by large scale PvP, because you don't just feel like you've lost to a really good player. You feel like you've been stomped by 'the zerg', or worse you become the zerg and then realize you just got owned by that 5 man team. Mass PvP is much harder to design properly than smaller scale pvp, and it has a much harsher enjoyment curve. It's way too common for people to feel like they have either no chance of winning, or that they're completely dominating with no real resistance.

Getting good matches on small scale pvp games is hard enough, getting those really good mass battles in mass pvp games fluctuates greatly, and ESO has shown this quite clearly. Especially when you go look at the battles now vs. what was seen closer to launch.

Originally posted by d_20

Before ESO, a lot of people said Warhammer failed because it had only two factions. Three factions were supposed to ensure a kind of balance because the two underdog factions would join against the dominant one -- hearkening back to the good old (rose tinted?) glory days of DAoC. But it doesn't seem to be working out in ESO right now.

How did three factions work in DAoC? Was it balanced? Is there anything ESO can do differently (like DAoC or otherwise) to make 3-way pvp work in Cyrodiil?

Do you think the NA campaigns are faction-imbalanced now? (If you give an opinion, please say what faction you mainly pvp for.)

Are there any games that have managed to solve this type of problem? What can be done?

The missing element here is 'realm pride'.

Back in DAoC people actually gave a crap about their factions, and about winning. If you're territory was being invaded (or you lost DF) it was a big deal.

In these newer games, it's really hard to tell whether is a game mechanics problem, or just an issue with player apathy. How do you make people give a crap about winning PvP, without having too punishing gameplay? How do you keep enough people interested in a neverending PvP cycle, instead of constantly hopping to the next best thing? These are pretty important questions that affect the survival of such game mechanics. You need a lot of active players, and a lot of players who care for this type of PvP to be fun.

You lose either, or both of those, and the fun's over.

Cyrodiil is still the best made feature in ESO to date. There's not a whole lot 'wrong' with how it was made, and many people played ESO for Cyrodiil alone (though many also left due to a lot of bugs and server stability issues). It seems much more likely that today's gaming climate just doesn't support this type of PvP very well. That there are too many gamers that will game hop, or become disinterested.

World PvP only work in games that have a longterm / stable population.

Originally posted by delete5230


I don't think there are many people asking for easy :

- Little Johnnies mother is not making a phone call to developers asking to make mmos easy so her son can play !

- No one is asking for purely liner either.

- I don't even think ANYONE is asking for cash shops except people trying to play totally for free.

The point of all three issues are WE ARE NOT IN CONTROL OF BAD MARKETING.....This is pretty much only in the mmo industry !

This is why mmos suck !.....We are not in control of what we like.  Were told ! 

I think a bit of a reality check is in order:

1) The data shows contrary to what you think. In every game I've seen data for, roughly ~10-20% (or less) of a game's population partakes in it's most difficult content. MMOs aren't really that difficult to begin with, so that should tell you something right there.

Now, you may be thinking 'well I know 100 people on an internet forum that also don't want easy content!' and you may even be telling the truth. But let's do some math on that one. Nearly all MMOs have at least a thousand player, most having populations in the 10s or 100s of thousands. Take some of the more well known ones that have around 2-300k players, and you're talking about a population of around 3-6000 that likes the harder content. That is a lot of people, but it's still a small fraction of the total playerbase.

Have harder games become more popular? Absolutely. But the number of people who play video games has also grown substantially since the first / second generation of games.

2) Cash shops would not exist if they didn't make money. Cash shops cost the studios money to run them, to maintain them, and to handle potential issues such as faulty transactions. They wouldn't even bother making a cash shop if it haasn't been proven to be very profitable.

3) You were NEVER in control. The only way you have control over something is if you do it yourself. You want control over a game, create one yourself. The reality is much different than how you imagine it to be.

Don't confuse a lack of control with a lack of choice, though. You can still choose what you yourself buy into, what you play, and what you don't. You may not be able to sway others opinions, but you have complete control over your own.

Originally posted by ReallyNow10

In most MMO's, sword and shield ("sword and board") is for tanking only, and 2 handed weapons are for DPS only.

Why not expand those options and simply have the modes (Offensive and Defensive) make those weapon sets viable for tanking and DPS roles?

SO, a warrior with sword and shield could DPS, with the shield doing decent off-hand damage and spell interrupts.  The 2 handed weapon wielder would do good parries.

Sort of like the table below:

                                                              Main Hand DPS     Off Hand DPS    Blocking       Parrying

Tank Role, sword and board             Average                    Weak                 Strong         Average

Tank Role, 2 handed weapon           Average                     na                       na                 Strong

DPS Role, sword and board              Strong            +        Average              Average        Weak

DPS Role, 2 handed weapon            Very Strong              na                       na                 Average

Of course, "sword and board" can be any one handed weapon and shield.  And the "strong", "average", "weak" values above are just examples.  Main thing, is I think designs would work to allow more role variety for the "weapon and shield" and "2 handed weapon" folks.

Thoughts?

The idea's been done before in a few different games. Maybe not exactly in the manner as your table, but it's been done.

It's a cool idea, but it is problematic for the games that are built around a trinity. Most dungeons have more than one boss, and you don't want to have to switch out tanks for each one. This tends to create issues where one form of tanking is generally viewed as 'superior' for certain (or in some cases all) dungeons, and thus the other types tend to get neglected.

Essentially what makes the trinity so popular is that it's combat dumbed down to be as simple as possible. When you start fragmenting the classes too much it counteracts the whole point of having the trinity to begin with.

Originally posted by kroz318
...to turn a genre I hate into something enjoyable. Over the years I've tried multiple mobas multiple times and just never liked them. Got a beta code for this today and absolutely love it. Don't even know why. It's just fun unlike the other times I've tried playing mobas. Thanks for the code by the way!

It's because, like other genres, they've taking everything that requires actual thought out of this one. The one exception being Starcraft 2.

HotS is definitely fun, but it's fun like Call of Duty is fun. It's good in bite sized chunks, but the gameplay is very shallow compared to it's peers within the same genre. It gets old imho.

I like the constant team fighting, but not the lack of strategy. Maybe they will change that, since they seem to be determined to make this into an esport, but I'm not holding my breath.

Originally posted by Avirell

I have provided the link to the "Game Summary" of Pantheon's website for their upcoming MMO. I personally hope that ALL of their "Game Tenents" and "Game Features" hold true upon release, as this is what I have been WANTING in an MMO since my first MMO "EverQuest" back in 1999. With the latest update video I saw as well, this game is moving up quickly on my personal "Hype" meter! They seem to have a mindset of the CLASSIC style of MMORPG many of us have been clamoring for on this site as of late. With McQuaid (I know he has issues with money heh) I KNOW the guy will create the type of  MMO  I want to play since he was co-creator of EQ !    

https://www.pantheonrotf.com/wiki/view/pageId/217/slug/game-summary

Feel free to post your thoughts regarding the link to their game summary page.

Not to deflate the hype, but this is not exactly uncommon.

The general ideas behind many games sound great on paper. It's all up to the execution (and how much our own personal expectations clash with those realities) that determine how much we enjoy them.

Though I will agree, it does sound like a lot of good features / ideas / concepts. This is definitely a game on my radar, though I'm holding off on being too hyped about it for now.

Originally posted by filmoret
Personally I love massive pvp but for some reason its a niche thing that doesn't appear to be growing very well.  At first glance people usually just scream zergfest then cry and run away and goto a forum and write a post in utter despair.  Having played Rift's 180 person fights and actually paying attention to what was happening you could see group organization and tactics.  Same thing for GW2 but one can easily get bored of the player stacking that occurs.  But for someone to cry about ESO's cyrodiil just boggles my mind altogether.  What are people expecting from massive warfare?  You get rewards for winning and using strategies and tactics trump a mindless zerg any day.  Yet people will continually write articles about how zergy and crappy and pointless it all is.

There's a few reasons for this that I've noticed.

1) People don't like losing, and it's easy to feel like a game's 'unfair' when you get killed by 30 people (even if it's largely your fault for being in that position in the first place).

2) Burnout. Mass PvP games tend to get extremely repetative. The same general tactics tend to work for each game (with minor differences of course), but it's very easy for this games to turn into games of base / objective trading. And thus people tend to get tired of it. This is in part because these systems are persistent (which is a double-edged sword); but also because it's hard to make the objectives really feel significant to the game world without forcing pvp on members that do not wish to join in at that time. This  gets amplified by problems of attrition, as these systems require a healthy population to still be enjoyable.

3) Nearly every game in the last decade or more has been engineered to make the player feel like they are the strongest badass in the universe. You don't get to feel that way in massive PvP games unless you actually earn it.

As has been discussed numerous times over the passed few years, 'zergs' 'zerging' etc. are a fairly standard tactic. This is true of both actual warfare and virtual ones. This is where concepts like 'safety in numbers' come into play. Hell, even in traditional raiding you are typically gathering a bunch of your buddies to go beat up on 1 or a few guys.

- After the above the 3 reasons there tends to be a massive stigma around mass PvP, primarily being a zergy non-skill based, unbalanced mess. This is of course, not really true, but most players never get involved enough to actually learn this. Most of the strategy comes from organized groups (or strike forces) communicating over voice coms. Of which the average player is not invited into unless they show an active interest in participating & being useful. Which is a lot less common than it should be.

Originally posted by Electro057

I've realized in games of recent that there's a severe lack of support classes, that is classes that aren't healers but rather they specialize in buffing the party and using spells that control the field of battle or tempo of a fight. Things like Bards! What happened to this role in MMOs? It was always my favourite, playing strategist and mascot in the backlines.

There's a number of reasons.

Support classes haven't completely died, but they are indeed a lot less common (for your typical MMORPG that is). This is primarily due to solo / group dynamics in the current market. People don't want to be too dependant on others to get things done anymore. In the past you would need to group up to achieve most things. Today, most things are meant to be soloed, with only the hardest content requiring a group to beat. Furthermore groups have gotten much smaller. 5 man groups are much easier to obtain than 8 or even 10, let alone a full raid of 40+. It's the magic number that yields the highest chance of getting a group, without completely destroying the group dynamic.

All that said, there is just simply not enough room for traditional support roles within the mindsets of most gamers. The average gamer wants tank, healer, DPS. That's their group, and unless forced they don't give supports much thought. Furthermore, support roles generally require the highest level of understand of game mechanics to be effective. You need to understand when & where certain buffs are effective, when to use which debuffs, etc. etc. They usually don't have 1-size fits all rotations like the other archetypes do. It's a lot more situational and actually requires a good amount of thought.

From what's been seen with each new game, the average player tends to not want to think that much about what their doing, or rely on others to do that job in order for them to get the new shiny. It sucks, a lot, but it's sadly a reality. I'm sure we will see more support classes in the future, but not as long as we continue to play overly simplistic games.

Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Its confirmed its in the game on some level. Sounds like its not something that will happen in all situations but it will in some. How do you feel about that in a PvP game? Want it, or please make it gone!!!

I like the idea behind it, but I've played enough games with it to know that stupidity ruins mechanics like this. There are just too many players who don't like to think about what they are doing. People who just fire off abilities (spray & prey tactics), tunnel vision (kill, regardless of who is in the way), don't pay attention to surroundings (walk into your line of fire without realizing it), etc. etc. etc.

In most PvP games I've played with FF enabled, your teammates end up doing more damage to your team than the enemy does. It almost turns into a battle of who can commit suicide faster.

Sadly, it's for that reason that I think it should probably not be in the game, or at least hopefully it stays limited to certain abilities (maybe certain AoEs). Even then it's very easy to troll your teammates with it. We'll see how it turns out.

Originally posted by emi56

Is it pretty easy to get tomes of knowledge in sPvP? I don't do it that much... 

Planning on running Ascalonina Catacombs story mode  later today if anybody wants to join us! 

Yes, Tomes of Knowledge / Exp scrolls are pretty common while doing sPvP. It's a large part of how you lvl up via sPvP. Basically, nearly everything you do in this game gives you experience. Which means there is a ton of freedom as to how you choose to lvl yourself.

Originally posted by Wizardry

Point is pvp has become soooooooooooo dumb down it is always just Counterstrike in a different setting.Even worse is 90% of the time,players are standing out in the open ,no cover often times spamming to get lucky.I seriously do not see the intrigue in playing pvp like that,i guess it is a nice EASY design for good players to have it easy mode versus so many non pvp players just joining in for the popularity.

I have not seen one game improve on the first 4 or so pvp games that started all of this Unreal,Quake,HL,CS,COD.Everything outside of those games has been a terrible pvp design.I tried watching some Gears of War last night,the combat was so fast,i could barely follow it,made my eyes hurt.

The ONLY thing i enjoy about most of these games are some of the streamers are VERY entertaining,streamers often make a 3/10 game a 7/10.Devs should be paying the streamers because it is them who are making bad games popular.

First off, allow me to change your metaphor to say 'it is always just like Call Of Duty'. CS still has objective based gameplay, even if it is minimal compared to many other PvP games. COD has devolved into an IP that is basically all about kills and killstreaks.

That said, you're very much right. And as someone who enjoys PvP games (amongst other things) It frustrates me to no end. It's a problem I've been dealing w/  lately in SMITE. In order to play with players who understand the basic game mechanics you have to go pretty high up on the skill-brackets. The vast majority of players just run around with their brains turned off wondering why they're losing, or thinking they are the sh*t when they've done basically nothing of value.

This is a trend in a lot of games I've been seeing. Too many players unwilling to learn basic game mechanics, and instead just want to shut off their brain and autopilot. I understand the appeal, I just wish it would stay out of teambased gameplay. It's annoying when you're fate is shared with others, and part of your team are essentially vegetables.

Originally posted by hayes303

Its not the pvp that has hurt the genre, its that developers link pvp to ffa loot systems and sandbox gameplay. That seems to have created 2 things; 1. bitterness from a lot of people who enjoy sandbox gameplay and a open crafting world, and 2. games that cater to the lowest common denominator. These ffa loot gankfests that come out now seem designed for the griefers. Hard to attract new players when they are farmed like a resources.

If they could make a game with pvp that actually mattered, but make it voluntary as part of a larger sandbox world, I think it wouldn't be a problem (other than the endless class balance crying, but Rome wasn't built in a day). The way SWG did it was pretty good.

Except that it's usually the players who make these links, not the developers.

The developers are almost always doing what they think people will play (aka buy). Any developer that is worth anything knows what the term sandbox actually means, they understand that game mechanics are tool towards building a game, and not necessarily required features.

Players, on the other hand, make demands. They insist that game X must have features A, B, & C or else it's 'not a true game'. Players also frequently confuse the term 'sandbox' with the terms 'open world', 'seamless', and 'FFA'. All of these are clearly different things, but sometimes they get marketed as the same, because that's how players view them.

Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by aesperus
Originally posted by Vesavius

If you're main focus is to be on 'the pvp mentality', then you need to more clearly define what you think that means.

or maybe, considering the terminology was very clear, it is up to others to ask if they do not understand instead of leaping to the kind of hostile argument that we have seen here in this thread?

PvP is a game mechanic.

It is. But the culture it breeds isn't.

Simply put.

If by 'very clear' you mean this: "Action over deliberation. Reflex over thought." then I fear you misunderstand my post entirely. If you were referring to a different phrase somewhere else in the thread, then I apologize, and a quote / page number would definitely be appreciated. There is absolutely nothing 'hostile' in what a posted. Just logic. Simply put; If you're trying to host an argument based on the stance that something you believe exists, you need to first show that it does.

Assuming that is the correct phrase, it is not clear enough. It mentions generalizations, yet fails to mention why you think this pertains to PvP, or to provide examples of 'the culture it breeds'.

- That said, going off your 'clear definition', you're stance is that PvP breeds an environment in which people act before thinking, and react without thought. And yet, this is exactly the opposite of what PvP games promote. You can take any of the top PvP games, and what separates the better players from the rest is decision making, tactics, and practice. Twitch skills do play an important factor (primarily in non-objective based FPS games), but those skills are often overemphasized by players of lower-skill.

This is why you get a lot of rage from higher Elo (MMR) players who get placed in games with people of low Elo / MMR. Because less experienced players don't understand the forethought, the planning involved. They don't connect action A to results B & C. They play for kills, and then wonder why they are losing when they gave up uncontested objectives.

That said, how is that behavior any different than raiding? Do people not also get mad when they bring in a newbie to a raid, who does not know the fight, and hasn't planned accordingly? Because I've seen this happen in every MMO I've played with high-end PvE.

It's a form of ignorance, and while it is indeed toxic, it is not limited to games of one mechanic or another.

Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by Airwren
Originally posted by Vesavius

Let's look at the last decade. A decade where the PvP mentality has dominated. 

A decade where we have seen the PvP mentality demand that tab is dead and that twitch is the future again and again (yeah, looking at you Murphy!).

Action over deliberation. Reflex over thought.

Where has that brought us, really?

Are our communities better? Is the social heart of this genre (the only real thing that ever made it special...) healthier? Are we less transient, less toxic, for the push towards PvP dominated design?

Where has PvP, PvP, PvP brought us in the end?

I'm not really certain that I would agree with "PVP mentality has dominated".  The most successful MMO's over the last 10 years are not really PvP games at their core.  Sure, PvP is there, but I wouldn't say they are pvp-centric games.  At the end of the day I personally believe a shift has been made over the last 10 years with PvE being the focus of most MMO's, as this drives their revenue.  The PvP centered games are not having a lot of big dollar luck.  This discussion should really be about the shift to the FTP, early alpha/beta paid access, Kickstarter trends that seem to be where this genre is heading.  I think Pvp is the last thing people should worry about.

First off, thanks for the reasonable mature response. It's appreciated.

To be clear, it was not said that PvP games have dominated, it was said that that the PvP mentality has, which is not the same thing.

I think many in this thread have missed that point.

If you're main focus is to be on 'the pvp mentality', then you need to more clearly define what you think that means.

PvP is a game mechanic. One that focuses around players competing with each other.

You have players and developers that prefer such mechanics within their games. However neither of those particularly constitutes a 'mentality'. The way you assume all PvPers act can be considered a mentality, however player-preference is not.

Simply put, what you may be thinking of as a 'mentality' might actually not be one at all. The most logical alternative would be 'pvp focused games', but here you have explicitly stated that isn't what you're talking about.

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