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All Posts by aesperus

All Posts by aesperus

255 Pages « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 » Last
5096 posts found
Originally posted by meonthissite

Still waiting on explosives to have a wide an explosion arc as a two handed sword, for it to do as much damage as melee weapons, for weapons that use bullets to do decent damage and fire as quickly as bows. Call me when they fix Engineers.

You mean that even though engineers are one of the top pvp classes atm, you still don't think they're 'good enough'?!

They have crazy burst, the bombs actually do as much cleave as a 2hander (or more if you count the toolbelt skill). The only thing that's really been hurt by engineers are the grenades, which are still useful for general spammage, but not an iwin button like they once were. And if you go back and watch the specialization talk on engi, they are getting a lot of neat things w/ the expansion (and some probably before).

Originally posted by Xorian7
Such fond memories of eq1 and its community and im currently playing on an rp server in stor online and its insane you get attacked just for asking questions.

All those guys that you used to be isolated from by playing MMOs, started playing MMOs themselves (thank WoW for that). The population of this genre didn't come from a bunch of babies born overnight, it came from other genres being convinced (via WoW), that MMOs were now 'cool', and that not only nerds in their mother's basement were playing them.

Originally posted by Mechanism

I've noticed that in every mmo I've ever played the AI has been noticeably dumber then in most single player games. With the exception of bosses the standard mob will behave in the same simplistic fashion in almost all mmos. They should be attacking in formations, avoiding especially powerful attacks, finding cover against ranged players or just generally doing anything other then running in a straight line and randomly executing whatever skills are off cooldown. I know this may be the compromise developers have to make to keep mechanics like tanking working or reduce server lag but smart AI is one of the most satisfying ways to make a game challenging and maybe it's about time developers stopped making that compromise.

There's a few reasons:

1) MMOs need to cater to a much wider audience than other games, because they are significantly more expensive than most other games.

2) The average gamer doesn't want to be challenged. They want to feel powerful. This is shown when you look at which games sells, and how the sales of even the most well known 'difficult' games compare to other less challenging titles (look @ dark souls for example).

3) It's easier to code, and design around. There are less factors to consider, less chances for things to go wrong, etc. GW2 is a good example of this. The game has more complex AI than most MMOs, but as a side effect it also has more problems, and can be exploited by players that know what they're doing. Most players who play the game currently know these exploits, and run dungeons & such accordingly, forcing the enemies into a position that negates most of their mechanics.

It would be nice to see more games with more intricate AI mechanics. We've been stuck in an antiquated EQ aggro system for ~2 decades now. It's overly simplistic, because it was invented during a time where the average person was still on dial-up internet, computers were much less powerful, and had far less storage. It's still used because we've been conditioned to use it, and because it works many of us assume it's the 'only viable option'.

This is untrue, but it's going to be hard for a lot of people to see this until we have more qualified designers experimenting with that aspect of these games.

Originally posted by mbrodie
Originally posted by aesperus

The game does have that. It's in the options. It may not be as simple as a 'check box', but the options are all there.

There's even a mod you  can get which switches the combat from the default to something very similar to what TERA uses, and the only thing it does that you can't do yourself in the options (last I checked), was add a retical to the center of your screen.

- The game could benefit from more clearcut directions / instructions for sure, but much of the customization options people assume aren't in the game, have actually been there since launch.

mod was discontinued as arenanet said it's use is banable etc...

there is no option in options for mouselock, which would actually make this game heaps better

Games like ESO / TERA where you have mouselock default on to look around and bind a hotkey to turn it off to free the mouse have the right idea with that kind of combat... GW2 is kinda stuck in the middle somewhere

The mod's still around (the name changed slightly), and Anet's stance on modding has also been updated.

They're stance current stance is basically 'we aren't going to ban you unless you are using a mod that can be construed as 'cheating', 'hacking', or gives you a noticeably unfair gameplay advantage. However, if a mod breaks the game, they accept no responsibility. Which doesn't really matter, as you can just reinstall it anyway.

That said, it's been months since the last update, and who knows if it will have problems once the expansion comes out.

Even still, there are a lot more combat options than people realize. Including aiming skills based on the mouse instead of tab-assisted.

The game does have that. It's in the options. It may not be as simple as a 'check box', but the options are all there.

There's even a mod you  can get which switches the combat from the default to something very similar to what TERA uses, and the only thing it does that you can't do yourself in the options (last I checked), was add a retical to the center of your screen.

- The game could benefit from more clearcut directions / instructions for sure, but much of the customization options people assume aren't in the game, have actually been there since launch.

Can't have a single thread talking about what games do what, without it devolving into another "I like game 'X', so everything else sucks" thread.

When it comes to B2P (objectively), GW2 does more than other games atm. It has more features, doesn't require you to spend ANY money in the cash shop if you don't want to, and the ascended 'power-creep' so many people complain about is not only 100% optional (outside of high lvl fractals), it can be done w/ out grinding.

That said, GW2 is obviously not for everyone. Many of the features GW2 offers players don't like, or think they're done better in other games. That's fine, but it doesn't change the fact that GW2 has so many more features for the price of the box. A price which has repeatedly been lowered to ~15-18$ recently. Can we honestly pretend that there are other games that offer as much content for 15$ as GW2? Because I haven't seen them.

- To the OP, Arenanet has been working on improving a lot of aspects of the game. If you follow the info trickling out for the expansion, this is pretty evident. They've acknowledged the weak AI that most of the release enemies (and bosses) have, and that they are working on improving that across the game. The new bosses (Teq, Triple Trouble, Vinewraith) are sort of like test runs for this, and show a variety of different mechanics and scenarios. All of which are fun (imho). They're challenging, but actually very doable (and there are game-wide guilds that you can join if you want to successfully complete these).

The combat is still one of the best. ESO's combat has a lot of potential, but it's not as intricate as it needs to be (imho). There aren't a ton of combos, most of the complexity comes in the customization (which is actually quite good). ESO's RvR is currently better (imo), but is less populated, and has the same base-trading issues as GW2. Which is a shame, because it has better keep structures, and better anti-zerg mechanics. Maybe the new borderlands anet is working on will improve that for GW2, but we'll have to wait and see.

- Whatever game you prefer, the reason GW2 is on the top of the B2P list is simply it's the best value you will get for the money. There just aren't any other games that will let you play as feature packed a game, for as low a price.

Originally posted by VicodinTaco

For nearly all of my pc gaming life I've just used two small little desktop speakers and for the most part always had the TV on etc.  

Got my first pair of gaming headphones... HOLY CRAP.

I'm not an avid WoW player but I grab a sub every once in awhile and I was playing a new draenei toon.  I plugged in my headphones and just happened to go into Bloodmyst Isle for the first time.


Lol, the trippy as hell setting of Bloodmyst Isle along with hearing game sounds the way they were meant to be heard for the first time ever was aweeeeesoooooome....!

Now I would expect Blizzard to step it up a notch when it comes to sound but I wouldn't know really...  What other games really get it when it comes to music/sound/ambience?

There's tons, are you specifically looking for other MMOs or just games in general?

A good place to start would be games that have used Jeremy Soule. This includes games like Elder Scrolls, Guildwars, Star Wars, he's done a lot of stuff. If you have a PS3/4 the naughty dog games are also excellent (Uncharted, Last of Us), The Witcher series are amazing, heck TSW had great sound & ambiance.

If you are just now discovering sound you are not starved for options.

A good video, which touches on a lot of good points, but primarily misses a couple key ones. For starters, he never even really hints at a solution. He says 'we need to capture that feeling again', which is something that is obvious to most developers, but is much easier said than done. It's that lightning in a bottle. We want to obtain it, but actually pulling it off is pretty damn tough. In addition to this he talks about feature bloat and needing more virtual worlds. Well, you can't have a virtual world w/ just a textured map. It needs to be populated, and it needs to have features. Furthermore, the more games you have that are virtual worlds, the more they will have similar features. This is part of what defines the genre. It's why all platformers have you constantly jumping on blocks. It's why all racing games have you driving something. A large part of what makes a genre is the defining features (or gameplay) that makes all games within that same genre similar.

I see a lot of people pointing to WoW as the success standard, but I see very few people actually understanding WHY WoW was such a big success. Was it a great game? Yes. But that alone is not enough to make a game success. Hasn't been for some time, and it certainly isn't true now. There are plenty of examples of good games that either don't do well, or aren't as popular as some of their counterparts. The problems that we have seen since WoW, existed during & before WoW's release. It's just because so obvious by this point that we can't ignore it. So what made WoW so successful? It was that perfect combo of 'good game + great timing + huge untapped audience + friends'. They combined all 3. Even people who weren't really into the game play it because there friends got hooked. And it was the first game to bring millions of new players into the genre practically overnight.

So lets talk about the issues.

1) Feature bloat is an accurate issue. There are numerous features in these games that we DONT need. But we've convinced ourselves that we do. We don't need quest hubs, or gear grinds, or vertical progression. But enough of us are hooked on those things that they've become necessary.

2) Canned content. It's easier to make quality content if a seasoned developer makes it, but it's impossible to make enough of such content to keep up w/ popular demand. The other option is user-generated content, which can be great or terrible, it's a complete roll of the dice. There needs to be more games that properly balance the two. Delivering quality content, but allowing tools for players to make their own during the gaps.

3) ROI / Production costs. MMOs are some of the most expensive games to make (not counting games that go out of their way to bloat their budget on expensive licenses, celebrities, and trailers). Much of that comes down to the nature of how much needs to go into a game to be an MMO (because they are easily the most feature-heavy), but that's only part of it. The big issue is:

4) Player expectations. We demand so much from these games. And it's fine to hold a game or genre you love up to a higher standard, but much of what we demand are contributing to the problems this genre is facing. We demand features that don't help make the play experience better. We constantly push for game play that only has short-term value. We continuously refuse to approach the few mmos that are trying something different like new experiences. Instead we always compare them to older games (primarily WoW) and complain when they don't add up.

The solution:

We are actually starting to see some games coming down the pipe that are doing things differently. Started roughly around when GW2 came out and has been building since. Keep in mind how long it takes just to get an MMO from concept to release (it's getting faster, but around WoW's time it was close to a decade). Things are changing, what we need to do (as players) is give these newer games that are trying to do things differently a fair chance. Try and approach them like new experiences, and not like WoW v 10. There is more diversity in this genre than I think a lot of people realize.

Any game with player competition needs balance. Period. Doesn't matter if it's PvE, PvP, team-based, non team-based, combat driven, or otherwise. When you have any game based around player competition (which nearly all MMOs are), you allow a player's experience to be manipulated by other people. With poor balance it allows players to exploit that and break the game / ruin the fun.

No one wants to play a game where one class is superior to the rest. No one wants to raid in a game where every group only takes the same 3 classes (because they are just better than the rest). No one wants to play a mini game in which one card, or one mount, or one car is basically wins you the game if you use it.

Balance is pretty important for a good reason.

Originally posted by Kaneth

My only major gripe on some of these events, in particular Vinewrath, is the general attitude of many players in the map.

Events like the Marionette and Vinewrath have a large potential for failure, which is a good thing. The problem is that players don't really face any failure scenarios until the end game, since the events in all of the zones are more or less designed for success. Very rarely does anyone actually fail an event in PvE in the "leveling" zones.

So now when we have the Vinewrath event pop and the first lane fails to kill the champion, you'll see incessant whining and comments like "Just WP another fail map". Which is extremely detrimental to the rest of the group that is there. I've seen groups who probably could have succeeded snatch defeat from the jaws of victory due to how poor the community can be during these events.

Couple of things need to happen. First, some of these events need to scale a touch better for smaller groups. Everyone gets unlucky while playing map roulette at times, but it would be nice if these large events could still have success even with only 4-5 people per lane. Secondly, ANet needs to keep this higher level of difficulty for their zone events as well. If players face probable failure more often, it should increase the level of play...or at least, get people more active than just standing there and dumping aoe every now and again to get gold on an event.

Honestly I think the pacing is all that's really necessary.

There is a bit of a difficulty spike between lvls ~20-60ish and lvl 80. Players simply aren't driven enough to try and be better. And that's something I don't should be catered to any more than on a basic (low) level.

The thing about things like Vinewrath is that they've been out for a while now. Most people know how to do the encounters, and if you yourself don't there are still a lot of people happy to explain it to you. The problem is that a lot of newer players don't do this. They expect to just autopilot up to a big event boss and win. And when they don't, drama ensues.

While I have seen some maps succeed that should've failed, that's hardly the norm. In fact there is usually a good indication of whether a map will succeed simply based on the prep event. Things like communication in map (how may people at each lane? Do we have enough reflects in mid?), having a commander, etc. all help.

Absent of those I tend to just roam to the various lanes and get a feel for what we're working w/. And I'm not ashamed to say that I have bailed on some maps, because (for me) it's not worth dealing with the frustration involved in trying to force a large group of uncoordinated, unexperienced, and possible unskilled players to do something you can do in your sleep. And, similar to dungeons / bosses in most games, that's why people rage. After a certain amount of time it becomes expected that most people will know what they are doing for the most part. When that stopped being true, it gets pretty frustrating.

People are right about scoreboards being a problem, but they aren't the whole problem. You can still have good RvR with scoreboards. However 'realm pride' is a huge part of what made RvR in DAoC so fun, and is proving to be a very difficult thing to recapture.

In the case of ESO, one of the biggest problems are fluid campaigns, as well as being able to roll characters on every faction. Simply put, there really isn't anything that punishes a player for giving up. Simply switch characters to the winning team and cash in. In order to make people want to fight, they need to feel like there is something worth fighting for. In most cases this defaults to a 'reward', but what's also missing is the part where you fight to prevent your side from losing something important. There's just not enough gravity to the pvp atm. There are some good fights, but after a while it just feels shallow.

RvR needs to have a sense of permanence and meaningful choice to succeed. Cyrodiil is lacking on both atm.

Originally posted by Flyte27
Originally posted by aesperus
**snipped for length**

This is actually not true.

Healing and DPS generated more threat then the tanks taunt ability.

People besides the tank got agro quite a bit.

For some reason people seem to make it appear easy to maintain agro on the tank in the old system.  For certain classes in World of Warcraft that was the case with AOE taunts and things of that nature.  EQ didn't have AOE taunts aside from the damage abilities you had.  The warrior didn't even have an AOE damage ability.  It was all single target DPS.

From the game mechanics you describe they would all work fine in a trinity system.

In a trinity system there are also hybrids.  EQ have quite a few of them.

All you described could happen in a trinity system.

Sigh... please re read the post I made.

Taunt is a 'snap' aggro ability. Not the primary mechanic for maintaining aggro as a tank. Never has been. It puts you at the top of the threat list for 'X' seconds, and that's about it. Since threat is constantly going up as the fighting drags on, DPS & heals can absolutely surpass that number if the tank isn't on their game.

Tanks primarily maintain aggro through a stat (threat, hate, emnity, etc.) which artificially makes their attacks more significant than they actually are. It basically games the system into treating an attack that does 20 damage like it's doing 200 damage.

This is necessary, because you can't have a class with ma health & armor, doing as much damage as a DPS class, or as much healing as a traditional healer. That would obviously be OP. However, if you had mob AI attack targets based on the level of danger to the mobs survival, instead of an arbritrary number (threat), then you're DPS and healers would be dead at the start of every fight. It wouldn't be fun.

That's the whole point of the trinity system. It all boils down to the 3 specialized roles necessary to manage threat based on the current standard system. Tank (they literally control the threat), Healer (they make sure the tanks dont die), DPS (they end the fights and control the pacing).

- This doesn't mean hybrids can't exist, but you may notice that (in a trinity game) the hybrids are a blend of those specialized roles. They are still based around those same basic mechanics.

EQ, however, is a bad example. You have to keep in mind that EQ was not designed to be a 'trinity game'. It was made during the inception of the MMO. They were putting whatever they could think of into that game, and discovering the outcome. The whole concept of trinity came later, when the players (not the devs) figured out the system that was being used, and realized the most efficient way to exploit that said system. The players realized that, while you had all these cool hybrid classes, if you ignored that and took the strongest ones, you'd get the best outcome. By the time EQ2 was released, you could see the shift.

There's a reason that you have to go back that far to show examples of such hybridization. Not to mention that back then, you also had a 4th role (controller), because games still had classes with potential CC.

Originally posted by Malabooga
Originally posted by aesperus
**snipped for length**

Well if you dwell into a conspiracy theore, ANet named it "taunt" to get more "trinity" players into the game under the assumption you can actually tank now ;)

And thats for the rest, i agree, the best way to improve the trinity is to remove tank and heal role and make everyone possible tank or healer or dps or ccer depending on ecounter/situation.

But thats mosty already done now by GW2 so i would say its already improved, ANet just need to improve AI and encounter design (as they have been doing ever since Teq) and thats pretty much it.

No offense, but I feel you're simultaneously getting, and missing my point completely, lol.

First, I'm not one for conspiracy theories, but you aren't wrong about Anet. One of the biggest challenges of GW2 is it's stuck in a massive catch-22. Trinity mechanics are so common that everyone has grown to expect them in every game. There are still a majority of players who believe that trinity mechanics are the ONLY way to make a game, even though that's simply not true. As such they are forced to implement things to the game (like hearts & taunt) which are familiar to trinity players. However, the side effect of this is that it also confuses a lot of players into thinking it's some kind of failed trinity.

Getting off the subject of that game:

if you remove the roles of tank & healer, and give them to everyone (which has been done), you DON'T have a trinity anymore. Remember, a trinity is a system based around 'specialized' roles. When you allow each class to do a bit of everything, they stop being specialized. Thus, no trinity.

Now, this doesn't mean you can't have interesting combat mechanics, or classes that feel distinct, or classes that are better at certain roles. It just means that the result cannot be classified as a trinity.

Originally posted by Eronakis
Has anyone actually read the OP other than like 2 people? I feel like this thread is getting derailed. Just because I mentioned Gw2 doesn't mean the thread is about Gw2. I used it as an example. Unless the OP is confusing. If so please let me know so I can figure out a better way to convey the idea behind the intention of the thread...

Yes, we have (at least most of us).

The reason GW2 keeps getting mentioned, is because it's a damned good example.

And when it comes to combat design in MMORPGs, it's about the only example people all seem to be familiar with. Trinity mechanics are so predominate in this genre that it is very hard to point to a non-trinity game that isn't Eve, or an FPS. And even then, there's a very high chance half the people on this site won't have a clue what game you're talking about.

Originally posted by Flyte27
Originally posted by aesperus

He said it right, the defining element of the trinity is the threat table, not taunt.

GW2 has much more dynamic threat than trinity games, which it seems more chaotic to people who are used to the standard trinity. In trinity games threat is a linear function. Everything builds X threat, and the person w/ the highest number 'wins'.

In GW2, for example, threat is weighted off a set of actions. Each player has a number of criteria that gets measured, and each criteria counts for a certain amount of 'threat'. Things like ressing, current HP, armor, damage output, distance to the enemy, etc. all factor into this. By understanding how this works, better players actually know how to manipulate the threat, not unlike how good DPSers know how to drop their threat lvls if the tank is struggling. The big difference is that, unlike trinity games, this role can be played by anyone.

- Don't understimate the taunt mechanic either. It's correct that it is quite a bit different from the standard trinity, however such a mechanic exists in most MOBAs currently, and it is strong. Depending on the implementation of it, it's usually more than just 'snap aggro' as you'd see in say, world of warcraft. Taunt, when used as  CC, is also often a repositioning tool.

It's one thing to say 'you're forced to target me' (standard trinity taunt), it's an entirely different thing to have a skill that means 'you're forced to target me AND move towards me'. Such abilities are some of the most deadly in games of skill. Not only do they disable, but they can force your target to be out of position, which a competent player can translate into an easy kill.

It seems to me you could apply the same agro mechanics to a trinity game.  Most of the things you mentioned about how the agro works depend on not having a trinity in place.

For instance having threat based on armor was already done in old trinity games I believe and distance to the enemy would also work fine in a trinity setup.  Damage was already the main factor in agro so that's not an issue.

There is no snap agro in trinity games, but if you get the highest threat the mob will run after you (which similar).  Again this mechanic could be used in a trinity game.

I believe any mechanic that could be used in a non trinity game could be used in a trinity game.  The only difference is you have more specialized classes which adds to the strategy.

You can still have strategy in non trinity games, but it would require something akin to real life strategies like the romans forming a shield wall and stabbing with spears.  You generally don't see that in a game though.  It would probably become stale pretty quickly as people would find the counter to everything.

Except that you can't.

The whole concept of the trinity is based around the 3 most fundamental specialized roles you can have, while still having functional group combat. One of those roles is that of 'threat management'. By removing that, and instead making threat a combination of environmental & stat factors, of which everyone is responsible, you remove one of those roles. As such, by definition, it is no longer a trinity (let alone 'the' trinity). In GW2's case, healing is also a group effort, which removes yet another specialized role. This is why most trinity minded people claim GW2 is 'everyone is a DPS', which is a half-truth at best.

If you look at any one of those threat criteria individually, then yes, they could be implemented in a trinity game. However, that's not how they work. They work in tandum with eachother (sticking w/ the GW2 example for this). For example, you can have a guardian with the highest armor, and lowest health in the group, but he can lose aggro to a DPS who's ressing a teammate. Or to support that's closer to the boss than he is. If you tried to implement the same mechanics in a trinity game, then what would the tank do? Everyone at this point is capable of getting, and keeping aggro. And there are no real class mechanics that can change that fact. It all comes down to the situational awareness of each individual player.

- In every trinity game released, by contrast, threat is linear. Everyone is working off the same threat scale, and this number is easily tracked in many of these games. Most of these games DO have snap aggro (taunt, provoke, etc.) which provides a temporary edge on the threat table. For example in FFXIV:ARR, there's a skill tanks get which automatically puts them at the top of the threat table. If someone surpasses that number as soon as the skill is used, the skill is wasted. But for that brief second, the tank has a chance to get back on top.

Originally posted by Malabooga
Originally posted by fs23otm
Originally posted by Malabooga
Originally posted by fs23otm

OP let me point out also.

GW2 did away with the tank and healer role. It basically said EVER man for yourself. While you can gear a Guardian for suvivability, it is no where near "tanking". 

A gear and spec'ed ELE can heal a group pretty well, but not in the tradition sense. 

However, even ANET see's a problem with this... and in the expansion HOT will give people a TAUNT. 

This proves that agro management is a vital part of group combat. 

Taunt is just a name for a skill. Another control skill.

Its not trinity like "taunt".

GW2: Taunt is an effect that will force the taunted player to run at their target with their skill bar locked, minus stunbreakers, and only use their autoattack skill to attack

Trinity like taunt does just that... makes you focus on the player for a defined amount of time. 

The real difference lies in the threat table... 

Snap Agro has always been about getting attention on demand... it is what occurs after that that defines it. If your snap agro puts you at the top, and keeps you there... then tanking becomes nothing more then push X button on cooldown.

If snap agro is a temp buff, and your DPS doesn;t adjust, then when the "time period" stops, you may not be at the top.. and lose agro again. This is how Agro management should be, this not only seperates good tanks from bad, but also good dps from bad DPS. 

Oh shoot, yes, thats the defining element of trinity "taunt"

Its no different (i would say its even worse) than fear, knockdown, stun and paralyze in GW2.

He said it right, the defining element of the trinity is the threat table, not taunt.

GW2 has much more dynamic threat than trinity games, which it seems more chaotic to people who are used to the standard trinity. In trinity games threat is a linear function. Everything builds X threat, and the person w/ the highest number 'wins'.

In GW2, for example, threat is weighted off a set of actions. Each player has a number of criteria that gets measured, and each criteria counts for a certain amount of 'threat'. Things like ressing, current HP, armor, damage output, distance to the enemy, etc. all factor into this. By understanding how this works, better players actually know how to manipulate the threat, not unlike how good DPSers know how to drop their threat lvls if the tank is struggling. The big difference is that, unlike trinity games, this role can be played by anyone.

- Don't understimate the taunt mechanic either. It's correct that it is quite a bit different from the standard trinity, however such a mechanic exists in most MOBAs currently, and it is strong. Depending on the implementation of it, it's usually more than just 'snap aggro' as you'd see in say, world of warcraft. Taunt, when used as  CC, is also often a repositioning tool.

It's one thing to say 'you're forced to target me' (standard trinity taunt), it's an entirely different thing to have a skill that means 'you're forced to target me AND move towards me'. Such abilities are some of the most deadly in games of skill. Not only do they disable, but they can force your target to be out of position, which a competent player can translate into an easy kill.

The problem is that the trinity system exists because of the classic / most basic AI that comes with your standard threat mechanics. It is because of this that such threat (aggro) defines such a system.

By changing the way threat works, you are essentially creating a 'non-trinity' game, whether you realize this or not. For example, this is exactly what GW2 has done. GW2 has all standard roles that are present in trinity games, but it's the lack of dedicated roles and more importantly, the lack of dedicated threat that makes the combat system so much different.

To better understand this, you need to look back at how the trinity came to be. While the threat mechanics for most of these games have remained mostly unchanged for the past 20-30years, how we define the roles within this same system has. The trinity wasn't a thing during the conception of Everquest. It became a thing, from players figuring out the most efficient composition to tackle the content at the time.

The devs created a bunch of classes based off D&D, with a multitude of different options and choices. Then the playerbase took those options, and narrowed them down into the most beneficial and went w/ those.

Subsequent games saw this, and emulated it. Many games have tried to offer more choice within the trinity system, but it always comes down to 'what's the best tank, the best healer, the best DPS'. Some games do a better job of adding some variance into this equation, but many more fail.

The way around this is not to reinvent the same archaic system. It's to try and make new systems that allow for more complex gameplay, that aren't based around speed farming, and more about problem solving. The trinity doesn't really allow for that, it's goal is to simplify combat into the most basic components, to allow for the most accessible (easy to understand) gameplay.

I'm sure it will happen, depending on your view of games like H1Z1 it's already happened.

The thing is, the traditional take on what constitutes an MMO is changing, and will continue to change.

A feature like 'no maps' is honestly comparatively niche. Most people don't like feel lost / hopeless in a video game. Which is why such features became so popular in the first place.

Personally I'd love to see more games get away from all the handholding & coddling, and shift gears to design choices that challenge players more, and reward people for thinking, coming up with unique strategies, and doing things that are actually spectacular, instead of just pressing the X button.

Originally posted by NightHaveN
And STO. 3 ships where you can be:

dps - tactical
Cc, debuff, cleanse, regen shields - science
Tank - engineer
Heal - engineer (different build)

So that one goes beyond the trinity with the full 4 roles, even if only have 3 classes.

Funnily enough, what you're describing is actually where the trinity came from (the classic trinity in a way, though it is 4 roles not 3).

Once WoW released, however, games stopped providing controller classes. Thus giving birth to the typical 3-class roles.

What the trinity is superior at, is providing a combat experience for people who want familiar roles, that they don't have to think much about. That might sound harsh, but it's absolutely true.

What the trinity doesn't do is add depth to combat (in fact it actively seeks to do the exact opposite), it doesn't add complexity, and it only adds the bare minimum of strategy.

While I won't argue that (when it comes to MMOs) many of the newer games trying to break away from the trinity mold haven't done the best job of it; this doesn't automatically mean that the trinity model is the only option. An opinion which the OP (and many others) seems to default to.

There are games without trinities that have amazing combat. People like to point to GW2 as a a failed experiment, but it's ironically not. The biggest problem w/ GW2 is that much of the AI from launch was done poorly (which you cannot have in non-trinity games). With the newer content they've actively been fixing this one step at a time, and the game actually is having more varied boss encounters, with mechanics that require a multitude of specs, strategies, and approaches to beat.

And there in lies the problem and main difference between the two. The trinity is by far the easiest model to implement. It's about as simplistic as you can possibly get, which means that designers don't really have to flex their brain as much to get a functional trinity system in play. Non-trinity models are much less tread ground. There's a lot more room for experimentation, but there's also a lot more room for error. It's much easier to screw up a non-trinity game than it is to ruin a trinity one.

Imho, I prefer non-trinity models. They're still improving sure, but they add more depth to the combat. There's a lot more potential for interesting fights, and they force you to think and use your imagination more. All things I look for in games I play. I like using my brain when I play, I don't like games that have you unplug and play in a semi-coma state of satisfaction.

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