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All Posts by aesperus

All Posts by aesperus

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Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by Dihoru
**snip for length**

"Live in the present people" what exactly does this imply except move on?

Could you please (with sugar on top) at least grasp what the OP as well as others are saying? No one is denying SWG had issues, no one implied anything close to that.

The topic is about features, it just happened to be SWG that had them... The ops entire post was about features, and that he'd rather see those kinds of things being the focus.. SWG's problems have nothing to do with that.

I hate to say it, but you are being unreasonably hostile towards Dihoru.

It may not be what people want to hear, but he's made some good points. And the OP, while he is talking about features, he's been repeatedly trying to compare them to games that have little-nothing in common w/ the one he admires so much (SWG).

We get it, SWG had some great mechanics. And definitely some really interesting ideas. But this thread wasn't structured around how interesting the ideas were. It was structured around 'objectively' (used incorrectly) all modern games are trash compared to SWG. The OPs point (and numerous others as well), essentially amounts to 'newer games are bad, because they aren't sandboxes. SWG is the best, because it's the pinnacle of sandbox MMO (at least according to the vocal minority on these forums).

People do need to live in the present a little. It's fine to look back fondly on a game you loved. But that's not what this thread is. This thread is a dilusional attempt to compare an MMO from 2003, to games today which are made around completely different circumstances. As I've mentioned earlier in this thread, the MMO market today is monumentally different from what it was back in 2003. For one, theres 100x more people playing these types of games. Secondly, the criteria (most) people want from their games is very much different (for better or worse).

In 2003, we had a few hundred thousand people in the entire genre. Now we have 10s of millions. Those of us that want games like we had back in 2003 are the minority, which is why most modern games aren't being made for us. Though, with time this is changing. And it's highly likely we'll probably see games more closely mimicking those from 2003 in another 5-9 years. Because these things tend to go in cycles.

Originally posted by HikaruShidou
Originally posted by Kyleran

While I didn't play this title, from what I've read isn't there an equally long list of negatives that could be associated with this title, including many bugs, multiple missteps in delivery and direction, and a host of other issues?

While it did many things well and different from today's games, it also did enough wrong to see it become one of the few MMORPG's where the plug was pulled.

Don't get me wrong, I like the designs of the earlier games, probably why EVE remains my favorite to this day, but we're in a minority, most players today don't like those designs and they show it by voting with their wallets and buying just about every new title that is released in numbers far exceeding anything reached by SWG or other early title.

Actually, you could just call that SOE.  The plug was mostly pulled due to SWTOR releasing. I remember reading a thread by a SOE member before it shut down stating that.

That's the problem with creating games off of IPs you don't personally own. You're left at the mercy of the people who license the IP.


Originally posted by Darkholme
The housing and crafting systems in games like Ultima Online and SWG back then are clearly objectively better than in modern MMORPGs. Those systems in newer games now are nothing but shallow window dressing compared to earlier games. Those systems especially are virtually meaningless in new games... it's not a matter of personal taste or preference, it's how the mechanics work and whether or not they are integral and meaningful systems.

I think you need to learn the definitions for 'objective' and 'subjective', if you're going to continue to use them in conversation.

You, personally, preferring certain mechanics over others has nothing to do w/ objectivity.

That said, back in 2003 games had a completely different criteria. Developers will still figuring stuff out, and experimenting. The entire genre had only a few 100 thousand players total. You can now get that in a single game, and some games have multiple times that number in subscribers / buyers / players / etc.

The criteria for games changes to meet the market, and the market now is much different than it was back in 2003. Will we ever see a return to how things were back then? Probably, these things tend to go in ~20 year cycles. So come back in 2023 and see what the game are like then.

But saying that features back then are 'objectively' better than features now, is not only ignorant, but it doesn't apply. It's like trying to argue that fishing is a better mechanic than questing. They have completely different goals, and cater to completely different demographics. They aren't even remotely close to trying to achieve the same thing.

There is so much false logic in this thread, I don't know where to begin.

I'm not sure which point the OP is actually trying to make for one. That people incorrectly accuse companies of being greedy? Or that a reskinned SWG / EQ1 could make a lot of money? The two aren't really related, and don't really have anything to do with one another.

That said, companies are all greedy to varying degrees. It's in their best interest to make money. That's how they stay alive. Contrary to popular belief, 'good' games don't make nearly as much money as you'd expect. Games with lots of marketting, based off of established formulas do. This is why there are so many sequels, remakes, and clones of previous games. They make way more money than they probably should. And they're almost guarunteed to do so. Even if the game is bad.

The reasons we don't see SWG / EQ1 clones are as follows:

SWG cannot happen without acquiring the license for the IP first. Which is extremely expensive.

Furthermore, there is no actual evidence to support that the amount of time, money, and resources it would take to do a proper reskin of these games would actually justify the amount of money they would make. There is no real evidence to suggest that they would make more money than they did original. There is pleanty of evidence to suggest that they'd actually make less. And the amount of work it would take to 'modernize' those two games is a lot more substantial than a lot of people seem to realize. Furthermore, you're still going to have people saying crap like 'well, it's not 100% the same as SWG / EQ1, it's crap I won't play it!' Because there are always those people, and whenever you modernize any game, it's impossible for it to be exactly like the original, because you are changing it to look newer. Even if it's only the aesthetics that are changed, that's what most gamers pay attention to.

Lastly, most designers don't want to spend 5 years working on a game they've already made. It's not only extremely dull, but it doesn't help them evolve as designers, and it doesn't help their careers at all. They want to try new things, create new system, try new mechanics, etc.

Originally posted by nastyjman
Originally posted by BillMurphy
Originally posted by nastyjman

"The Ventari Follower, Prosperity Mine, and Crystal Shard Kite toys will grant you increased movement speed while carrying them."

The seed of mounts...

That's kind of what I thought too. Closing down waypoints, making travel more difficult... I know some players say "no!" to mounts, but I'm not one of them. I'd love to have a cool mount, one I get gear up and show off, and something that makes running around the world more fun. I always thought instant teleporting was nice in cities but overused in the open world.

I'm really interested on where ANet is moving to. The waypoints are getting threatened by Mordy, and there's already one waypoint that's K.I.A. The Pro of culling waypoints would be giving players an incentive to explore the world rather than teleporting all over the place. But it would be a Con for lazy players who would rather pay the waypoint fee rather than run to their destination. I say retain the city waypoints and the zone entrance waypoints. Anything in the middle should either be culled or destroyed.

Also, these subtle changes to the game is really great, and it does hold up to the living world experience.

Aye, I'm also very interested as well w/ this latest season of updates.

I'm kind of on the fence about mounts / WPs, still though. On the one hand, mounts are cool. On the other, Waypoints are pretty useful for getting to events at a reasonable pace. However, w/ more WPs shutting down, maybe we'll also see more events fail? Who knows.

Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Let's see how long it takes before the issues are all ironed out now.

And by then we can talk about all the new issues they'll have introduced!


Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

Seems finally a company takes the risk of making a melee combat system tahts more of a real time medieval combat simulation, then an MMO...  I know many people including me, have been looking forward to  a system like this..

I hope they can pull this off and make a great game, they peeked my interest with this video and i cant wayt to hear more...

If that intrigues you, you might want to check out War of the Roses. It's got a very similar system of damage types, vulnerabilities, and protections vs. mobility. It's been out for a while, and can indeed be a lot of fun, though it's not an MMO. There's also Mount & Blade.

While the linked video sounds cool, it's just ideas on a paper. One lesson a lot of designers learn early on in their career, is that there is a huge difference between the idea you envision in your head, and the reality of actually implementing that idea. It pretty much never happens that the two are identical, and you pretty much have to go through tweaks / changes / revisions if you want to actually implement a system that both works, and is fun, and is balanced.

Because of this, it just doesn't make a lot of sense to hold too much stock in a design video. Does it sound cool? Absolutely. But there is a ton of stuff that can go wrong between now, and when (if) that idea becomes a game. Assuming that is for an MMO (I don't think he ever mentions what type of game that was?), there is going to be a lot of work needed to get things like hitboxes, net code, combat lag, responsiveness, etc. under control. It's tricky enough to get those right in a standard multiplayer game. But an MMO is a much more complex beast.

Originally posted by rodingo
Originally posted by Vorch

Also, GW2 is thriving and it's 2 year anniversary is coming up...

I don't even feel the urge to defend the game to the mmorpg community anymore...mostly I just play :)

That's how I feel.  The actual players know where the game stands amongst its peers.  The game is just very polarizing just because of how much it shakes up MMO norms. 

Lotta truth there ^

So many criticisms comes from the fact that the game is different. It definitely has it's flaws, but more often than not, people don't actually talk about them. They talk about the fact that they can't play the trinity they're used to, or they don't know what to do at endgame, or there's no loot progression, etc.

But as is customary in the gaming community, if there's a popular game you don't enjoy, it is your duty to continuously bash and flame it into the ground, if it gets any sort of attention whatsoever! There is no room for games I don't personally enjoy, because they are all bad! amirite.

Great article. Probably one of the best I've seen on this site in quite a long time.

It's no big surprise, but as per usual on this site, so many posters have completely missed the mark as to what the article was talking about. Instead, they see this as yet another opportunity to flame the game they never liked enough to really play to begin with. Typical.

To add more irony to this thread, many of these same posters are demonstrating their membership to the very same problem the author is writing about. That we have been conditioned to expect these linear "!" quest hubs, and that most of us don't understand any other type of game.

This is why he talks about GW2 specifically, because GW2 is a game that starts off with "!" hubs (in the form o hearts), and systematically weens players off of them, and towards a more exploration / events based experience.

I see so many people complain that 'questing is just going from heart to heart, nothing innovative there' or 'endgame lacks any real focus or progression'. Well, they're half right. But here's the other half:

- Those guided experiences you find 1-79, become less frequent for a reason. You are supposed to (at some point, which is left up to the player), start to take the initiative into your own hands. That 'lack of focus' you see at endgame, is because the entire world is open to you. You can literally go and do whatever you want. It's complete freedom. And true freedom in an MMO is something that has become so foreign, that most gamers seem to be clueless about what to do with it.

GW2 may not be a true sandbox, but it is easily the least linear themepark on the market today. Which is why many people call it a 'sandpark, or a thembox'. It's a hybrid of the two. And I would definitely love to see more games trying this type of design. It doesn't mean they have to mimic every little feature GW2 does, and most probably won't, But the game has done a lot of features this genre actually needs. Unless you want to be stuck, 10 years from now, running from ! to !, waiting in a que for a tank or a healer (or maybe even both), complaining about how people don't really socialize in these games anymore, or struggling to fill that raid slot for the Nth time, and complaining how noone raids anymore.

They have been sending out legit survey via email, every since the end of beta.

There's a few of them, and most likely the one you got is legit (i haven't heard of any scam cases yet).

They're honestly just trying to figure out what to do with their game from the looks of things. They've seen all the negative backlash, and are making an effort to fix / improve things. Not sure how much it will matter in the end, but if they can get their crap together, ESO might actually turn into a decent game.

Originally posted by Thupli
Content isn't the same as game play. Game play is skills, bug fixes, game mode improvements, etc.

LS and cosmetic skins is all GW2 has keeping it alive at the moment.

I like the LS, bit lets not pretend that it is "loads of content". It is some, and I am thankful for it, but new weapon sets for each class would keep me going foe Months.

but LS and cosmetic skins sap all of the dev time to make any game play changes like what I am interested in.

Uhm... what?

Content is any consumable experience you add into a game. This can be LS, this can be Jumping Puzzles, this can be hats, this can be new crafting recipes, or new dance emotes. It doesn't matter how small or large a thing is, if it's an experience being added to a game, it's content. Regardless of whether or not it's the content you personally want.

Originally posted by observer
All their expansions have cost that much.  Until people stop paying that much, it won't stop.  On top of that, it costs monthly, even though, in my opinion, the quality of WoW isn't worth that much anymore, if it ever really was.

This ^

Blizzard could slap that price tag on a turd and people would still pay it. And they have, with diablo III. There are some nice features from what I've seen coming w/ this expansion, but it's nothing too huge either. However, that is fairly standard pricing when it comes to Blizzard.

They throw a lot of money at their games, so yes, they expect a lot back in return.

Originally posted by Aztec
SOE just ripped off all the founders of the game by making a 66% off sale for all founders packs. Most of these people paid 100- bucks for something that is now 33-. SOE does not even care and is covering up the rage on their forums by banning everyone who speaks negatively about the 66% off sale. One would think that SOE would not be so stupid as to alienate their loyal customers but they are. I just left them for good as this is probably how they will handle most situations, poorly.

You honesty sound like you should not be buying alphas. Ever.

There is only 1 reason to ever pay for an alpha. And that's if you believe in the project and want to help support it getting off the ground.

If you truly are that person, then you shouldn't care how much other people spend on the game, because you're happy to have supported the project. If you aren't that person, then what in hell are you doing spending money on a game that's not even close to finished yet? There are any number of things that can go wrong, or change between now and launch. Things that are completely out of your hands.

I don't find myself defending Sony often, but this is kind of ridiculous. They have the right to put their products on sale. You are not entitled to get something for the updated price of a sale, because you were too impatient or impulsive to wait. It doesn't work that way for any other product in the world, so why should video games magically be different?

They've already refunded a bunch of founders packs because they screwed up the system reqs. The sale is more than likely their attempt to recoup some of those losses.

Originally posted by finnmacool1
Originally posted by Greymantle4

More delusional nonsense.

Im well aware of the disastrous history of that game as well as vanguard. The point of my post was to highlight the very basic concept that amazing successfull games that everyone who plays love to death neither bleed subs immediately after release nor require drastic changes like nge much less close their doors. If swg was such a great game as released, it would have grown through word of mouth not bled. Had it posted WoW like numbers or even 1/10 their numbers it would not have shut down,period. Games that shut down do so for a reason and that reason is never being they are so great and universally loved that they make too much money.

Game quality is absolutely subjective just like movies,books,music,comedy,etc. You and every other swg fan that think it is the bestest game ever are entitiled to your opinion but not your own facts. The fact remains, you are in the minority and vocal though you may be, you are still the minority.

You do realize that the only game that hasn't bled large amounts of subs immediately after release in recent years has been WoW itself. And that's only because WoW was the game that changed the MMO market from being a group of a few hundred thousand players, to one of 10s of millions.

Every game since has bled subs after the initial launch. Including WoW itself (albeit much more slowly). It has little-nothing to do with how the games are designed. It's a biproduct of one, and only one reality. We have far more games to play now, than we ever have in the past. People hop games a lot more now, because they are a lot more games to play. Before WoW, you had one, maybe 2 MMOs to stick w/. There were only a few high profile MMOs released every couple years. You also had a lot fewer games doing online multiplayer.

Now? Not only do we have more MMOs on the market, but we also have nearly every game offering some form of online multiplayer.

The OP makes a lot of good points.

Really, what the game needs is an expansion. Someone a lot of people have been asking for. Maybe a new class, a bunch of new skills to customize, new permanent zones, etc. The living story idea isn't a bad one, but they are focusing way too much on that. I think if they paced that out a bit better, and made room for more large updates, it would do the game a lot of good.

Also, I think they really need to add 'template' or 'loadouts' to the characters. Something similar to what they had in GW1, where you could save build profiles in-game. This not only made it easier to switch between builds, but it reinforces the idea that you are supposed to make a variety of builds, and switch between them. This is something I know a lot of people overlook, especially when it comes to customizing their characters. They assume that ones they have their exotic armor, and a build, the games over. It's endgame, and they complain 'there's nothing to do'. When there are tons of weapon skins to hunt for, achievements to unlock, crafting recipes, pvp rewards, and more importantly gear sets to acquire.

- The business model this game has is, imho one of (if not) the best on the market currently. It allows for total freedom over what you want to spend, or not spend money on. It also allows you to come back to the game whenever you feel like (which I've done off and on since launch). So there's nothing stopping you from playing again. No annoying account procedures. And it also rewards your ingame play, by allowing you to buy cashshop items w/ ingame gold.

Hopefully we get an expansion before too long, and they step out of their balancing shells to add more skill customization to the classes. If they can find a way to revamp WvW (removing or increasing AoE caps would be a start, imho), that might help with the zerging problem, though any game that allows for a lot of people to play in one area is going to have zergs. Really the biggest issue atm, is that there are limited mechanics to help counter zergs, so Anet (i'm assuming unintentionally) actually pushes people to zerg ball.

- I'm loving the new zone, and season 2, but I want more!

Good to see!

I just hope that it not only has significantly more exploration (which they've mentioned they're going to try and do), but I hope the story is much better than the last one. ME1 probably had the best story out of the series, but ME2's wasn't bad. However I felt like ME3's plot was very rushed and half-assed (especially at the end).

If they take their time and make a fully developed plotline, this could be a cool title. However, being that it's EA, well.. we know what EA does with literally EVERY game they get their hands on. Milk the IP until people no longer care about it. One can still hope for a change of pace, though.

Originally posted by observer

Some people are being confused here.  Most GW2 players, that are asking for more content, aren't demanding raid progression, or vertical progression.  We are asking for more content, that isn't just about the Living Story.

  • SPvP currently has 1 gametype.
  • WvW got a slight overhaul, but made things worse.
  • Dungeons are still the same.
  • Weapon-types are still the same.
  • Classes still the same.
  • Skills still the same.
  • Traits got a couple additions.
  • 2 new World bosses, 1 revamped.


I'm not saying content wasn't added, but when compared to other MMOs, it's been very lacking.  I would've included the temporary stuff, such as the Molten Facility dungeon, Marionette, a couple SPvP maps, the event changes to certain zones, such as Kessex Hills, seasonal events, etc., but even with all that added, it's been very small, for being out 2 years now.

It hasn't been all negative though.  EotM was a nice addition, and Fractals and Southsun cove was good.  There have also been some crafting professions that got an extra tier.  Ascended gear has been added.  Season 2 is finally becoming permanent, but so far, it's been focused on Living Story.  Hopefully, they start adding more content that isn't tied to the Living Story.  That's great for people who love story, but everyone else is being left in the cold.

I agree with a lot of this.

However, after leaving the game for about a year, and only recently coming back, they have added a significant amount of content, and it's clear to see the game has changed. When compared to various other MMOs I went back to to see how they've progressed, it's leagues above what they have done.

There are only a couple MMOs out atm that I could say has added more content overall, and one of them is WoW. Which has been around far longer than GW2, and has a much bigger budget. This isn't to say that I don't also want to see them add new skills / customized weapon skillsets, new (permanent) dungeons, more interesting boss mechanics / world bosses, more sPvP gametypes, and to revamp WvW. However I think a lot of people are kinda overlooking a lot that's been added over the years. I do think they need to get off this living story focus, for sure. They're putting a lot of the content into that, and it's not what people are mostly interested in.

I'm also not entirely sure how much they can 'fix' WvW at this point. I tried ESO's pvp system, and while it had a lot of improvements over WvW, it ultimately devolved into the same mess. As people pretty much only farm points, instead of interesting battles.

Originally posted by gotha
To be fair Anet runs with a core team and then a rather large rotating door of contractors.  I think the contractors have to wait a few months between recontracting also.  This leads to lots of turn over,  also lets you downsize your team without many people catching on.

Welcome to game development. Nearly every studio operates this way.

Originally posted by stevebombsquad
Originally posted by Meowhead
Originally posted by stevebombsquad

And they have seven million copies sold right..... 

A lot of websites and people picked up on that erroneous report!  I'll admit I make mistakes occasionally. 

At least Arenanet came out and said 'Hey, that's not actually right'!  Helpful and honest of them. :3

It's only about 4.5 million verified copies they've mentioned, it might be more, but 4.5 million is what has been specifically pointed out by the actual companies involved.

4.5 million probably spells horrible failure, if only they had managed to sell those 2.5 million extra copies so they wouldn't have to keep hiring new people. :c

I couldn't resist the chance to poke. It has sold well.  I am a well-known critic of the game, and I can admit that. I would like to see this model succeed with a cash shop like the one they have. I may not like the game mechanics of GW2, but I can appreciate the payment model and hope that it does prove to be sustainable. Maybe then some other developers will take this route. Only time will tell.

I can agree with this ^

I don't like all the mechanics either, but I do think the game has done more things right than it has done wrong. And is certainly not the failure a lot of people (on this site at least) try to make it out to be.

I do hope that, if they aren't able to improve / fix the features that bug a lot of us; that they can at least demonstrate to other developers that you can implement fairly non-intrusive cash shop models that don't rely on gating off gameplay elements to be sustainable. I would love to see more games adopt this 'customization'-focused cash shop model, with option to convert from in-game currency. Over paying for basic features, etc. Or F2P with the hidden agenda of trying to force a sub.

Originally posted by Avarix

I don't want a 'true Healer' class. I don't think this game is really made for it. I would like to see some more options though. 

I keep seeing players post that Elementalist fits this bill but I have some problems with the class. The issues I have with Elementalist healing is for the most part, you won't be really doing a lot of healing. It essentially boils down to 2 skills while attuned to Water, using a staff. The first one (Staff 3) has a 20sec cooldown. The second one (Staff 5) has a 45sec cooldown. Those are your heals. That's some pretty hefty wait time if someone is looking to mainly heal. You can stay in the Water Attunement but the PBAoE regen, which I think you have to trait for, and the main attack skill (Staff 1) are so tiny that they're simply not worth it.

The second issue is that even though you're the one dropping the heals you won't be doing a majority of the actual healing. That is up to another class like an Engineer or a Shortbow Thief. The blasts are what matter and Elementalists don't really have a ton there. So most of that +healing gear you are wearing is useless. I can think of only 3 blasts, off the top of my head, that Elementalists have access to. 

The third, and final, issue I have is the attunements. I really dislike this. You have to really stay on the ball and keep track of 16+ skill cooldowns (Not including the heal skill, 3 chosen skills, and Elite skill) to get the most out of the class. It made my time playing the class always feel rushed and chaotic. I am sure a lot of people love this, but I am equally sure that not everyone that wants to heal wants to do it like this.

I would love if they added a class like Bard. For instance you weave musical notes to give constant PBAoE boons and healing. As it stands with classes the healing and boons are, from my personal experience so feel free to tell me how wrong I am, too sporadic. Whether it's the long cooldowns, short durations, or sheer randomness (Looking at you Engineer) it all feels like something you do in-between playing a dps character. I have no interest in turning this game into most other MMORPGs out right now but I would also love to see more options for support.

I agree, more options would be nice.

As for the elementalist, there are a few options, and it does depend on which weapons you are using.

For staff, you are correct about the obvious heals, but you also grant regen (and healing) when you swap to water (if you trait for it). You also get 20% cooldown reduction on your water spells (again if you trait for it). So you can lessen that wait time significantly.

Furthermore, you have access to a number of blast finishers as Ele:

1) They added a new heal, which is both a blast finisher AND an AoE burst heal. On a 25sec cooldown which can be reduced with traits

2) You have arcane wave, another blast finisher 30s cooldown, reduced with traits.

3) Earth: Eruption, 6sec cooldown, blast finisher. (so you would start in earth, place the blast, then swap to water for the heal)

If you're not a fan of the combo finisher / blast water field style of healing, you get other options from the other weapons.

In dagger/dagger you get a spammable heal breath, a burst heal splash, and a ton of blast finishers if u would rather burst someone else's water field. In scepter you get a long range, more potent heal + regen in a smaller AoE.

- I know it's not the same as a pocket healer from WoW, but it is quite a lot of healing when you get down to it. Plus you are also supporting your allies in a lot of other ways (by applying buffs, giving them combo fields to trigger really helpfully effects, or granting them auras).

It's never going to be 100% the same as a trinity pocket healer, but u can play the elementalist as a pure support class. Support just means you are doing more than just healing, you're providing CC, buffs, and healing all at once, by swapping between your skills effectively.

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