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All Posts by aesperus

All Posts by aesperus

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4948 posts found
LFGame « General Discussion
2/01/15 8:35:54 AM
Originally posted by Golarum

Hello all,

I know MOBAs are not MMORPGs, but I am extremely familiar with mmos and am looking to get into a moba, I need suggestions based on what I am looking for.

Please recommend what you think would be best for me, I appreciate the help!

I'll break down the main 3 MOBAs atm for ya, then give my recommendation:

1) League of Legends. This is perhaps the easiest MOBA to get into. The balance isn't bad, it's the most popular MOBA, and the learning curve isn't that terribly high compared to other MOBAs. It's kind of the middle-of-the-road MOBA if you aren't looking for any extremes as far as gameplay.

2) DOTA2. This game has the highest mechanical / game knowledge cap out of all the MOBAs. The game has a surprisingly large amount of nuance that can add up very fast if you're playing with players who understand how to exploit them. For example, there are lots of strats that revolve around pulling creeps in different ways, manipulating monster spawns, clever ward placements, denying kills (killing your own teammates deliberately), etc. etc. etc. And that's all in addition to understanding what items to build and the intricacies of each champion. This game is great for those who enjoy hardcore strategy, and heavy theory crafting.

- The way DOTA2 handles balance can be a shock to newer players. Basically every character feels overpowered as hell, but they also all have counters. So, if you don't understand how to counter each character then you will repeatedly get hit by things that feel extremely unfair. However, once you understand the game more you can do some really fun combos.

3) SMITE. This is the MOBA that feels most like an MMO in terms of combat. This game has a high emphasis on personal skill, as basically everything is a skill shot of some kind or another. It also shared DOTA2's sense of game balance, so when you start there are a lot of combos that seem unfair. However, similar to DOTA2, the balance is actually surprisingly good (possibly even better, depending on your personal philosophy on balance). There are really only a couple (out of 62 currently) characters that you rarely see get played. This game also has the most varied game modes, so if you aren't fan of the extremely tactical main map mode, you can play less serious / more casual game modes if that's your thing.

***Recommendation: SMITE. It will probably feel the most comfortable for you, and it's a surprisingly good game tbh. It's biggest downside is that it needs more players atm. There are still a decent amount of people playing, but because they don't have numbers similar to LoL or DoTA, sometimes the matchmaking suffers and you get games that can feel a bit unfair.

4) Heroes of the Storm. I'm throwing this in here because it's popular. This game is kind of an anomaly, and is basically popular 'cause Blizzard. This game is basically designed as a MOBA, for people who don't like MOBAs, but still want to play a MOBA, even though they don't like them. Which makes literally no sense, but hey it's Blizzard. Essentially, if you are looking for a MOBA with questionable balance, and which most (if not all) of the strategy that is the foundation for this genre removed, then this is the game for you. Tbh I wouldn't recommend this for anyone unless you are a fan of Blizzard. In which case you probably already know about it (and will likely play it at some point anyway).

Originally posted by kanechart

So I'm looking for a really kickass Melee Class. One that can wipe the floor in PvE and solo single target elite mobs that give quite a punch. Something that does not kill all my heath so fast that I'm having to run away all the time etc.

I been playing my Nightblade Archer. I sort of liked the archer at first. I mean I think the biggest reason is because you can always shoot at range and always get a hit or 2 off if other players are near you. In PvP this seems to also be the case plus you don't want to go to Melee range at low levels or your instantly gone.

But I seen in PvP and PvE some classes just wrecking everything even at lower levels without taking almost any damage or they tend to be able to recharge their health really fast.

I heard Templar and Dragon Knight is some the 2 best Melee classes for people who are not going for the whole cloak and dagger type feel. I'm looking for maybe more information the difference between the 2 classes and their playstyle. 

1 Hand and shield sounds like a badass combo depending if the DPS is good but I love to hear what you guys would suggest.

I want to crush in PvE and maybe do Okay in PvP as in if I need to use a bow in PvP to not die that would be fine.

Sorc is still > everything else.

If you want a melee class that truly feels like a melee class, just go w/ Nightblade (or Templar if you're thinking more Paladin). They're both good in their own ways, and can be good in PvP.

DK can be OP w/ certain builds, but tbh all classes work best w/ a mix of magicka / stamina, or with magicka.

Originally posted by iGumballStar

This expansion is more focused around reshaping the end-game of GW2 and introducing features that the players have been asking for for a while. If Anet is doing this right, they should use the feedback they gotten from the past to shape the fundemental systems that they think their game should be based upon.

I would personally await future expansions to be more contnet-heavy. This one feels more like setting the last pieces of the puzzle in the right place prepearing to introduce content instead of reshaping the systems any further.

I kinda get the same sense tbh.

Which is why I think this is the make or break expansion for them. If they do this right, it paves the way for a lot of good things that players have wanted for a while now. If they mess this up, or it releases in an underwhelming state, it's going to completely backfire and scare off not only new players, but old players as well.

The other thing they need to keep in mind is that, if they do this right, they can't wait another 3 years to release decent content. They're going to need to be timely about it (i.e. within ~6months after the expac they need to have something significant lined up). I'm not saying an expansion, but they will need an intriguing LS story, and possibly more PvP maps or something, etc.

Originally posted by DMKano
Originally posted by bestever
Originally posted by DMKano

I am still trying to figure out what audience this MOBA is trying to appeal to - obviously not LoL or Dota2 fans (which is like 95% of the entire MOBA playerbase).


Maybe the smite fans. 

Maybe but that is such a tiny segment - 

I think they're trying to bring new people in - non-Moba fans, and that simply has not worked so far - even Blizzard tried to to that with Heroes of the Storm and it's not working for them either.

I think as pretty as Gigantic looks, it might be a gigantic flop - hopefully not, but we'll see

I sadly have to agree with this ^

Smite, despite being one of the best MOBAs on the market, and making huge efforts to develop its esports scene, is still struggling to get the playerbase it needs. Unfortunately, in this genre, that also affects gameplay. Without a healthy enough population, you don't get  a good enough spread of skill levels. Which makes matchmaking an absolute nightmare.

Furthermore you already have 3 solid camps of players between LoL, DotA2, and Smite. Everything else so far has been a niche, (or in Blizzards case, an attempt to make a MOBA that isn't a MOBA, for people who don't like MOBAs, but somehow still are interested in playing one?) and with games like these niches don't tend to do all that well.

I really hope this doesn't become the new trend of gaming. (either you pioneer a completely new genre / are the first game to popularize it, or it doesn't matter how well made your games are, because no one will support them). It's a massive chicken & egg problem that has started with MMOs, now exists within MOBAs, and I hope we don't see it spreading to other genres. This mentality of not playing games unless they are already popular, or completely different to everything else only hurts games. And in-turn, us gamers.

rip Massively. You will be missed /salute
Originally posted by filmoret
First would you explain what you call linear questing and then tell us what exactly is the alternative?  The only thing I can figure is a zone mixed with all kinds of level mobs.  I don't see how a mmo can exist if it doesn't have zones that have certain level mobs in those zones.  How would you feel as a lvl 20 running into a level 90 group of mobs?  I think the market has done an excellent job in placing super strong mobs in every area.   But mobs that are unkillable is more realistic however do you really as a lvl 90 want to visit a level 20 area just to kill that group of mobs placed there?

You're kind of talking about  2 different aspects, tbh.

The first (linear questing) is a pretty interesting topic, and there are a few examples of games that have branched away from that type of design. Most noteably would either be sandbox MMOs (SWG, Eve, etc.) but also some of the more recent themeparks (GW2 for example) have more open questing.

The 2nd problem you refer to is levels / leveling / difficulty pacing. While this can be a result of poor quest design, it is indeed a separate problem all together.

1) If you want to learn more about quest design here is an interesting video that talks about this topic. It is a 2 parter, but I linked you the 2nd part, as it gets more to the point. However, part 1 also has some pretty valid points if your interested and cites the original everquest as an example of non-linear quesitng. Simply put, the alternative to linear questing is to not use questing as a method for guiding players through a vertical level grind. Instead, use quests as a means to engage players within the world, to encourage discovery. As tools that players have to actually discover / find on their own, without the super obvious ! above everything. It requires more engagement by the player, but when done right you get games like EQ and TSW which both have some great quests in them.

2) Difficulty pacing is a somewhat complex issue, and there are a number of ways around it. One is to scale the encounters to a players level. Another is to do away with levels entirely (which is harder to do these days, as everyone wants levels because it makes them feel powerful, and that they're accomplishing something at all times). Another way is to have lose guidelines, but also provide some higher lvl encounters in each zone. Games like FFXI and Dragon Age 3 have done this for example, and it's actually not a bad thing. It gives players a reason to return to old zones, and gives them early hints that 'hey, there is something bigger going on here that I'll have to come back to'.

- There are alternatives out there, you just have to look for them.

Originally posted by Magnetia

I believe Colin chose his words very carefully about the specializations. According to the marketing department it will change the core experience of the class, of course we know that this may not necessarily be so. I main necro and am hoping to see myself as more than a condition handler. I too am looking for that 'hours of build theory crafting' like before.

I am going to be super super super generous in saying that they are essentially adding 9 new classes to play. That is IF the specializations make a genuine difference in gameplay. We'll have to wait and see on this point.

It will be nice when we see more details about the mastery system, it seemed to promote exploration which is always a plus in my books. 

Indeed I know he chose his words very carefully.

It's for this reason that I try and pay attention to the actual words being said, and not get caught up in the intended ideal being presented. For example, lets talk about the specializations:

They're promising that 'they will change the core experience of the class'. Which sounds amazing. But in reality, what is needed to change the core experience of a class? New skills, a new trait line, and a new class-skill (the F1-4 keys)

This may all seem fairly obvious, but you can essentially add all that, and still have a class basically feel the same. Which is not what we want. What's going to determine how well this works is how effectively they are able to make the playstyles FEEL different from what we currently have. And we won't even begin to know that until more info is released, and people have had a chance to play the demo.

- I don't think I can support the '9 new classes' thing any more. I'm having a hard time believing they will feel that way (again, hopefully I'm wrong about this)

- I am with you 110% on the masteries, though. This system reminds me of games like Megaman, Metroid, Zelda. All gaming classics, whos mechanics we rarely see these days. Having the ability to acquire new abilities that open up the game world is HUGE. It's one of my favorite methods of progression (horizontal), and it shows top design sense. I really hope this aspect (if no others) catches momentum, because it is truly a crime that we do not have more games that use such design principles.

I think the last game to do this was Arkham City? Literally almost every example I can think of for games that have such a system has resulted in an amazing game. GW2.. don't dissapoint! ><

Originally posted by DMKano

Isn't hatred harmful to communities in general?

I don't see why game-specific hatred would be different to gaming communities

I guess the the thread could be summed up as 

Hatred is harmful __________ (insert whatever specific topic you want to talk about - like gaming, education, politics, relationships etc....)

Pretty much this ^

Which is ironic considering the OP's post history.

That said, when it comes to 'anti-WoW' sentiments I will say this. WoW is fairly feature complete when it comes to the traditional themepark / raid-centric MMO. This is why there are so many themeparks out there that resemble it in some way or another. However, nearly all of WoW's key features are defining to the typical (classic) themepark / vertical progression / raid-centric MMO. Most of the proponents against WoW (not including the people who just blindly hate on it), do so because they do not want that same game.

In such cases, WoW's features get dismissed because people DO NOT WANT THE SAME GAME! Which is a pretty important distinction to keep in mind. WoW has many good features to it. If it didn't, it would not be as successful as it is today. However, WoW is designed around a very specific mentality. A very old mentality. And you don't get change by just repeating the status-quo with a new skin. This is often why things from WoW get rejected when talking about new games. It's not because of a deep seeded hatred of the game, but rather that the features WoW has works great for games like it; and at this point many MMO fans do not want that game anymore.

Just to reiterate, I'm not saying that there aren't people who blindly hate on WoW, or that hatred (of any kind) isn't bad. I'm merely stating that there is also a good reason that many people reject most of WoW's ideals / features.

Originally posted by Magnetia
Originally posted by aesperus
Originally posted by Loke666
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

1 new region.

Maguuma Jungle is huge.

Agreed, there should be at least a few zones and not a single one. Maguuma djungle alredy had a several zones in GWEN where it was just a small part of that expansion, here it is the main focus.

Still I expect it to be a smaller expansion compared to GWEN or the 2 GW1 campaigns, but I doubt it will be tiny. A single zone would upset all GW2 players including me.

Ya, hopefully they will clear up this confusion before too long.

They definitely said one new region (area), but not how many zones will actually make it up. I also agree that this xpac is feeling like it will be smaller in comparison to some of the other stuff we've seen in the past. I only hope we're all wrong about that.

I am imagining something like lornars pass but as deep as dry top. It's a lot of map IF it's that big. I heard a few quotes about 'bigger than any zone currently in the game but that can mean any number of things.

I'm kinda getting the same idea tbh. The big question is going to be in HOW the content is packed into these more vertical zones. if it's done in a clever enough way to make them feel larger, then it might actually work. However if it just feels like the same amount of content spread out over difficult to get to spot (lots of jumping puzzles / etc.) It will probably backfire pretty hard. Personally I enjoy jumping puzzles, but not all the time. And I know many people who actually hate them.

Either way it seems like they're taking a pretty big gamble with how they are approaching these new zones. Hopefully it pays off.

Originally posted by CriticKitten

Mmm, I dunno about it being "huge".  I took a moment to sketch out the possible regions that HoT might use.

It looks pretty big....until you realize that you could pretty much fill the bulk of that space with just the Ascalonian maps on the original world map.  And keep in mind that I was being generous and highlighting ALL of the regions that they could potentially use on the map, assuming no "dead space".  It's honestly not very likely that they'll use ALL of that highlighted area.

So I'd say "big", perhaps.  "Huge"....not really.  It's only about equivalent to the size of any one major map region.  That's a big step up from the Living Story's usual pace of one small map every once in a while....but still pretty far away from reaching "huge" levels IMO ("huge", to me, would be "a new map large enough to nearly match the existing world map in scale")

If I had to guess, the new content will likely be limited to the southern 2 areas. The northern one seems unlikely given the aesthetic they've shown, but I could be wrong. It would fit much more of a barren / oasis theme than a jungle one.

I think what they're banking on is that the vertical nature of the zones will make them feel more like 6-9 zones instead of 2-3. This'll really depend on how well they're put together, though. As to whether they'll feel like one big zone full of stuff, or more like a few smaller ones w/ a lot of annoying jumping parts.

Originally posted by Loke666
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

1 new region.

Maguuma Jungle is huge.

Agreed, there should be at least a few zones and not a single one. Maguuma djungle alredy had a several zones in GWEN where it was just a small part of that expansion, here it is the main focus.

Still I expect it to be a smaller expansion compared to GWEN or the 2 GW1 campaigns, but I doubt it will be tiny. A single zone would upset all GW2 players including me.

Ya, hopefully they will clear up this confusion before too long.

They definitely said one new region (area), but not how many zones will actually make it up. I also agree that this xpac is feeling like it will be smaller in comparison to some of the other stuff we've seen in the past. I only hope we're all wrong about that.

Originally posted by Magnetia

How much content will we REALLY be getting until the next expansion? The answer to that lies in the future and behind a paywall. A paywall I am more than willing to break with money.

The answer to that is still mostly very vague. And the devil will be in the details.

I'm maintaining a cautiously optimistic, though the more info I here that's underwhelming the more pessimistic I'm becoming. The new region is a welcome one, I hope it feels as huge as they seem to think. They have been working on it for some time now. Perhaps the most exciting announcements to me (so far) are the masteries (a design choice that's been absent from most games for far too long), and bosses that seem to actually have decent mechanics (finally).

The new class I'm curious about, I hope it is indeed similar to dervish / ritualist from GW1 in many ways. Both were very fun & interesting classes I would love to see re-imagined in this game. However, the more I hear about specializations, the more skeptical I get about them. At a base level, they can basically just be '1 new weapon, a couple new skills, and 1 new trait line'. And technically, that would change how the class can play. But that isn't what I think most of us want. We don't want the technicality, we want to be blown off our feet. We want to get lost in new choices. And I just don't know how they are going to do that with just one weapon, and a bite-sized handful of new skills.

As for PvP, I'm sure that guilds will welcome the ability to actually do legit GvG (maybe even involving guild halls?). Hopefully the team sizes will be large enough to make them feel like a proper GvG (because I don't think queing as a 5-man guild is going to do it for most people). The WvW changes will need to be significant, so we'll see if they do infact solve the problems most servers are having w/ WvW atm.

- There is a lot not that needs to be done for this xpansion to work. However they have been at it for a couple years now, so they have had time to get it right. We'll see.

Originally posted by UgUgUg

What Anet seem tto be going to release is an Eye of the North size expansion and I don't think there will be much more content between now and the release either which could be months away. I believe the intention is to give players with level 80 toons more to do as an end game so it wont contribute to leveling alts through something new yet as Guild Wars 2 designers do well that contradicts the versatility in the design of the game.

This is what worries me as well. And I would absolutely love to be proven wrong in this case.

EotN was okay, because the game already had an overwhelming amount of crap to do in it. The expansion was sort of like a 'teaser', a hint of what's to come, and people got excited for it. It certainly wasn't a bad xpac either, but it was indeed somewhat tame, feature-wise.

In this case, you have thousands of people who aren't happy with the current LS situation. Season 2 is definitely a lot better from Season 1 (which is a really good sign), but many people aren't sure (or don't think) that the LS will really hold them for a prolonged period of time. Which is something the xpac needs to do. The PvP crowd has been desperate for a WvW fix, and new content for a LONG time now, and have basically felt neglected for the most part. The new sPvP game mode is welcome, but it's only 1 map. We've gotten a couple of those here and there for free already. They do help to shake things up a bit, but given the lottery system there needs to be more there. (Perhaps a queing option to select preferred maps / map order, so it isn't always a random choice of a random map selection). As for WvW, I really hope the new map they are implementing fixes things, a lot. If I'm understanding them correctly (and it's just 1 borderlands), then that would also seem a bit lax. WvW crowd is looking for an overhaul on the whole system. If we either A) only are getting a new borderland, or B) are geting a new map that we rarely get to play, it's not going to sit happy w/ many. That said, given my experience w/ EotM, they are definitely learning and growing (as a game).

However, what a lot of people are basically looking for out of this xpac is for Anet to demonstrate that they are in-tune w/ their own playerbase. That they have indeed listened to the players, and are providing what many of us need to keep going forward. Needing time to add content is understandable. But expecting players to wait another 2-3 years while you spin your wheels figuring out how to fix past mistakes is going to be a tough sell.

- I really, REALLY hope that they have a mountain of features they are holding close to the chest to reveal to us over time.

Originally posted by Flyte27
Originally posted by aesperus

Good points, but I will say that the majority of x class will usually follow x way that most Rangers live.  Sure some might do something different, but likely this would be the rare individual.  Likely individuals you would want to keep unique like drizzt in order to make things more fun and interesting.  If everyone is now able to be drizzt then drizzt has lost his meaning in the world.  This is better reserved for NPCs in most cases IMO.  In modern times I would say most ideas would be accepted by society, but in medieval times there was little in the way of communication and societies were vastly separated.  Good and Evil was fairly resolute in their eyes.  We are also talking about a society where there are deities that are devoted to good and evil.  Something that doesn't exist in the real world at all.  With that in mind it's hard to say that there can be no absolute good and evil in game.  I would consider Necromancers to be evil in any game I played (by general rule).  They would at the very least shunned by most of society (even if they were trying to do good things for some weird reason (usually they would worship some type of evil god as a general rule)). 

That should be left up to the player. If you're lore is rich enough, and there is enough class customization (not just in terms of abilities / stats, but in terms of lore / titles / looks / etc.) The player base will sort itself out to some degree. The average rangers will all kind of look like, and hang out in the same areas, while the outliers will look different, and hang out in their own areas.

But the last thing you want to do, in an MMO, is to force players to NOT interact with others. That's one of the fastest ways to kill a multiplayer game. Remember, at the end of the day, if it's not fun, no one will play it. That said, one of the exceptions to this (that can kind of work, but it's tricky) are command-based classes. Classes that command / guide other players, and help them in some way.

These classes can be more isolated (either in a command chair, a throne, up in a mage's tower, etc.). Because it does make sense to have some kind of isolated vantage point in which a person can see the battlefield, so they can make informed decisions in real time. However, this is not to say that command-based classes should always be forced into isolation, just that mechanically this makes sense during times of battle / war.

Most players play these types of games to have fun w/ others. Even if it sounds good lore wise, removing that is pretty much always a bad move.

Originally posted by Flyte27
Originally posted by aesperus
Originally posted by Flyte27

What is good class design?


At any rate those are my ideas.  Share yours if you want.  I'm sure others like different things.

To properly answer this question, you must first understand the intent, or the problem your designer is trying to solve.

In some cases having classes at all is poor design. All design is basically judged around the objective that is trying to be solved. For example, if you want clearly defined roles, and do not want your player base spending too much time getting lost in skills, a class based system is probably the right choice. If you want a game with more freedom, in which roles are not defined, then you probably shouldn't have classes. Or at most, should have a loose class system (perhaps multi-classing, perhaps shared skills, etc.)

This is such a generalized question that you cannot properly answer it without being more specific. It's like asking 'what is good game design?' or 'what is good art?' or 'what is the best diet?' etc. etc. etc. There are too many contributing factors to discount them all on such a question.

Good point though that is why I have been arguing that perhaps developers are heading down the wrong path in terms of how they design the classes.  I am mostly posing this question because I tried to sit down and come up with classes I liked and too much focus ended up being on weather then classes were balanced and not enough on weather the classes had a fun place in the world rich with lore.  I think this is an important piece of the puzzle that is missing.  I don't believe that people who designed D&D originally were sitting around wondering what would be balanced in groups and raids.  They just created the world, created the lore, and did what was fun.  Perhaps this is what we should get back to instead of having games that are mostly about leveling, looting, and balance.  In the early days of fantasy I believe it was more about the story.  Now I believe it is more about the mini games of what class is the strongest or who has the best loot.  Might as well just skip right to that part and forget the actual premise and reason fantasy games were created in the first place.

Originally no, they didn't. However if you notice with each new addition they've been working on fixing those mistakes. Furthermore, the balance of D&D is typically different from that of other games. D&D is based around telling a story w/ friends. As such the balance doesn't really have to be as strict, as long as there aren't things that completely break the story. Problem is, in the older editions of D&D there were abilities that broke the game so to speak. Some DMs don't like their players using certain abilities, or invent rules to prohibit certain things from interfering. To put it simply, there is a sort of 'gentleman's agreement' in many cases.

This works fine, up to a point, until actual competition & consequence comes into play. As soon as you have other players, strangers, that can dictate how you play (or prevent you from playing how you want to play), balance becomes way more important.

To put a new perspective on things. If I'm going to be designing classes (i've already determined that my game needs classes, and that it's the right choice to go w/ them), I start by thinking of the type of playstyles I want within a game. What kind of boss fights am I thinking of having, are my classes going to be 100% combat oriented, or do I want them to have other roles within the game world (maybe wizards are needed for enchanting, discovering magical artifacts, etc.). From there I can start to get a rough idea of the types of roles that will be needed. (backline, frontline, support, utilities, damage types) etc. I never like the idea of having a class just to have one. They should always feel like they serve a purpose. Like they have a place, and make sense in the world. Every class should also have tradeoffs. Certain things they excel at, and certain things they don't. Imho, a certain degree of overlap is important. I.E. A ranger (archer) and a wizard, should both be able to handle backline tasks. Not just damage, but some degree of battlefield control. Maybe the archer handles single targets better, while the mage can handle multiple (or visa versa). Or maybe they have more synergetic relationship and they both boost each others combat abilities significantly more than if u were to stick w/ one or the other.

The main problem w/ class mechanics today, is that combat mechanics (in most games) are far too simplistic to really justify having interesting class mechanics. Nearly everyone is hung up on the holy trinity. Most people are stuck thinking about any form of combat in terms of 'dps, healing, and aggro / tanking'. This severely limits what classes can actually offer to a game. Because unless you want a horribly imbalanced game, everything 'interesting' about a class has to essentially be superficial. If any one class outperforms another by too much, you break your game, or at least the one class. If you start by having game mechanics that involve more than just damage, threat, and healing, you can in-turn have much deeper class design.

-I.E. you can have different damage types, and bosses that force you to play around those cleverly. Mechanics that need to be avoided or controlled in some way. Weaknesses / loopholes in creature's defenses that can be exploited with certain skill types (maybe you need to make a creature's bones brittle so you can then shatter them and actually hurt it). etc. etc.

Sorry for the wall of text, but I could probably right a book about this topic if I wanted to.

Originally posted by Flyte27
Originally posted by Randayn
Originally posted by Flyte27

I'd say the lore, background part should be more focused on the race you choose to play.  classes are nothing more than a recreation of what already exists in the real world...doctors = healers, tanks = tanks, infantry = soldier/warrior, artillary = archer/huntard and that dude playing table top D&D = mage.  so really there will be minimal backgrounds based on race (once again) for each different type of tank soldier (grunt, shinobi, stormtrooper), but that's all Id expect.

I would disagree with that.  Race should be tied to the world, but so should the class.  The class defines what type of person your character is.  If you chose to be a Ranger you would likely be spending a lot of time alone in the woods and helping lost travelers.  If you chose to be a Necromancer again it would likely be a life of being solitary as people wouldn't accept your evil ideas in most of the good societies that exist in game.  If you were a Wizard you life would be to strive for knowledge of magic and find lost spells hidden in remote corners of the world.  If you were a fighter you would likely be a mercenary or soldier for hire.  If you were a rogue you would be a thief, treasure hunter, or bandit of some sort.  The point being that each class is heavily tied in with the world that was created in some way.  Each has a different role to play that is described in detail.  Society treats each differently depending on their class and race.  Each acts differently as well depending on their race and class.

The thing is, this depends 110% on the game being made.

It's neat to think about lore, and to try and be as accurate to lore as possible. But you also need to think about factors like 'fun', like 'balance', not to mention whether or not certain mechanics will actually work as you want them to.

With the examples you gave, you're essentially forcing your players into your own stereo-types or prejudices. While it is good to have your classes grounded within your game world, you do not need to do it so rigidly. Having flexibility is a good thing. Many people like rangers, but that does not mean they all want to be hermit loners who befriend squirrels. Perhaps some are merely just hunters, that enjoy tracking down prey and honing their archery & survival skills.

This applies to any class as well. Look at necromancers. There is more to necromancy than just raising corpses. Depending on what lore you use, it isn't always strictly evil either. Maybe someone is a necromancer who speaks to the dead, and enlists the help of spirits, instead of necessarily binding them against their will, or forcing them into constructs. Such a person would be much more welcome around others, and even the traditionally evil kind would be able to find peers if they wanted. Furthermore it is extremely rare to have people that are pure evil or pure good in a world. There are always underlying motivations, circumstances, and commitments that force people to do things we may deem unsettling.

Point being, you may have your own mental utopia of how things should be. However, when you are creating a game, you are creating something that will take on a life of its own. Things will not work out 100% as you had planned. The more you try and force people into those idealized roles, the more 'fun' you tend to sap out of your own game.

Originally posted by Flyte27

What is good class design?


At any rate those are my ideas.  Share yours if you want.  I'm sure others like different things.

To properly answer this question, you must first understand the intent, or the problem your designer is trying to solve.

In some cases having classes at all is poor design. All design is basically judged around the objective that is trying to be solved. For example, if you want clearly defined roles, and do not want your player base spending too much time getting lost in skills, a class based system is probably the right choice. If you want a game with more freedom, in which roles are not defined, then you probably shouldn't have classes. Or at most, should have a loose class system (perhaps multi-classing, perhaps shared skills, etc.)

This is such a generalized question that you cannot properly answer it without being more specific. It's like asking 'what is good game design?' or 'what is good art?' or 'what is the best diet?' etc. etc. etc. There are too many contributing factors to discount them all on such a question.

This is like asking why are you always served food or drinks to eat. There's a spectrum. And things fall within that spectrum. As long as you are being served content (or in the above example, food), there is a limited number of extremes in which that content can be delivered.

On one extreme you have sandboxes (maximum freedom in gameplay) on the other you have themepark (heavily guided gameplay). They are the basic (and yet opposite) perspectives on content within gameplay.

That said, developers have done a lot to mix aspects of both within some games. Which is where we get terms like 'sandpark' and 'themebox', amongst others. However, as long there is a video game being played, the gameplay will always be labeled based on whether it has more or less open content. There are certainly other labels that get placed on games, many of them, but by bringing up the terms sandbox or themepark you immediately steer the labels towards how open the content is, instead of the nature of that content (what genre it's in). Etc.

Originally posted by Lobotomist
Originally posted by fivoroth

It's anyone's guess at this point what the speciliasation will do to a class.

I am bit pesimistic. Must be because the BIG change to mesmer and their weapon - is just a friggin SHIELD :(

But I largely suspect - the big change is : One additional weapon , that might be one handed , so only half skill bar. And few new elite skills.

They slap a fancy name on it to byte the hype. Thats it

This is something that is going to need massive clarification.

Think about it for a minute. If what you're saying is true, then does this mean that certain classes (i.e. Mesmer) get 2 new weapon skills, a few new utilities, and new F1-4 skills? And yet, we know Ranger is getting a staff (which is a 2handed weapon. So does that mean that some classes (Rangers / Necro) are getting more skills than others?

These are things we don't know until they go into details about how exactly each class is going to be affected. For all we know, choosing a new spec might give access to a new weapon (i.e. a shield), but that's only a small part of what that spec is. It could also be that choosing a spec is not limited to that new weapon (i.e. maybe you don't need to hold a staff to be a druid).

Point is, we don't know. Which is why it's best to hold off on speculation until more information is available. Everything we've been given is extremely vague at this point. We know more info is coming, but until then we only have a rough guideline as to what they're trying to do w/ the new expansion.

Originally posted by Quizzical

I am not asserting that "we" all like the same games.  Different people here like different games and have different game mechanical preferences.  However, a lot more people like some games than others.  My basic thesis is that, at a societal level, we benefit if "game is profitable" is strongly correlated with "a lot of people like the game a lot".

Game developers are primarily trying to make money.  Their primary form of feedback on whether they've done a good job in making a game is how much money the game makes.  Given a choice between making a game that a lot of people love and making a game that is profitable, they're going to choose the latter.  We don't want them to have to choose between those two options.

So vote with your wallet.  Pay for games you like, and not for games you don't.  Sounds simple, right?  But that's not what a lot of people do.

**snip for length**

To do otherwise is to send the message that what you really want is games that sound good on paper and give you early access, rather than games that are actually fun to play.  That's a message that too many game studios are hearing, and its the fault of gamers paying for games long before they have any way of knowing if they'll like the game.

Game developers respond to the incentives that they face.  That gives us a very powerful way to push them toward making games that we really like.  Let's use it to encourage good games, not good early hype machines.

Well written post, but unfortunately  the world does not work that way. And it really hasn't as far back as we can track civilization. Even before video games there are numerous examples of people buying into crap with every creative medium. Heck, even much of the artwork that is now hailed as 'classic' was not properly valued during the time it was created.

The sad truth is that 'what we like best' is a highly subjective metric, one that does not correlate with quality at all. The more informed we are, the better choices we can make, but it's been shown that humans often crave what is bad for them. We aren't engineered to necessarily do what is best. And instead of reason, the average person acts on instinct, on emotions.

This translates to games, because the average gamer spends in much the same way. We often see people buying into the same crap, falling for the same tricks, and playing sub-par games because they have 'elves', or 'boob's, or 'lightsabers', etc. Certain IPs can literally make money off of crap, because of name recognition and/or a sense of nostalgia. Add all this into the simple fact that people like different things, and you have one big messy recipe for 'never gunna happen'.

- The only way you're going to see a bunch of gamers successfully vote with their wallet, is if games have gotten so bad that we have a unifying reason to rally around. And I know some people think we're already there, but things can be a lot worse.

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