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All Posts by aesperus

All Posts by aesperus

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Originally posted by Nilden
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Nilden
Originally posted by ikcin
MOBAs are not MMORPGs, they are MMOs. If you call an instanced game, that can handle up to few dozens of players in one area MMO, you shall accept that many online games are also MMOs. If you think that MMO is a game where hundreds or thousands of players play together in competition and cooperation, well in such a case only big open virtual worlds like EVE give a MMO experience. The choice is yours.

MOBAs are MMOs if you abandon logic and reason, forgo common sense, and consider the M for "Massively" irrelevant. To everyone else you can turn a MOBA into a MMO like so: MMOBA. Massively Multiplayer Online Battle Arena. There is a reason they leave off that first M resulting in 5v5 MOBA games not MMOBA games. So that the acronyms self defining remains accurate.

yeah .. you just have to consider the M for Massviely irrelevant .. which is pretty much what websites, reviewers and the industry have done talking about, and doing analysis of these games.

and not just MOBAs ... instanced pvp games are MMOs too ... so there are even more evidence that the the first M is pretty much irrelevant in the definition of MMO.

If the M for "Massively" is irrelevant it's probably not much of a MMO.

A lot of this just comes from players mixing contexts. There's 2 main ways the term MMO gets used.

1) To describe gameplay (which is what we mostly talk about on these forums)

2) To describe userbase.

When you see things like MOBAs and FPS games called 'MMO' it's usually the 2nd context of the term, and used to describe userbase, and not gameplay. Within this context the term not only makes sense, but SHOULD be used. After all managing a 5v5 game that supports 10k players is VERY different from a game that supports millions +.

But, that's not going to make these discussions go away, we are always mixing / confusing / misusing terms & definitions (especially on this site). Things like persistance / open world / seamless being used interchangably. Sandbox being used to describe things non-instanced. Etc. There's no logic to it anymore.

Originally posted by Dullahan
Originally posted by Tasslehoff35
Originally posted by Nilden
Originally posted by Dullahan
We want older games that are more like they were originally, when they were more concerned with being massively multiplayer than compromising the virtual world for the sake of more money and hypothetically, a larger audience.

Here's the important part.

To this I would add the community has been compromised for the sake of convenience as well as the virtual world. That and games where it's not about how much you play but how much you spend.

So "old school" games didn't care about making money?  Is that why most of them are not around?  Or is because they weren't that good and nobody played them?  

The thing is, they actually lost money in the long term by changing.  It can be great at first when you make your game more accessible, but now you are in a much more volatile position of having to compete with many casual games.  At least before you offered something unique.  In addition to that, maintaining a distinct brand identity also inspires loyalty of your playerbase, keeps your income and population stable, and strengthens your community.

I'm not sure where you're getting your info from, but I'd check again.

WoW is still the top grossing MMO of all time (by a large margin). Depending on the list (some don't concider world of tanks an MMO), that is usually second, followed by Lineage 1 (which is 1 of 2 'old school' MMOs seen on ANY of the top grossing lists I've been able to find).

Literally the only 2 old school MMOs that even pop up on any of the top grossing lists are Lineage 1, and Eve. None of the others even come close. And all the other spots are filled by newer games. TERA, SWTOR, LotRO, Aion, & RIFT to name a few.

If you look at top online games, the lists are clearly dominated by MOBAs, which is why there's such a large desire from devs to make some version of those games atm.

Originally posted by Maurgrim

For me I do play more singleplayer and multiplayer games than before due to todays MMOs dont really interests me, sure they are good for a week or two but thats about it.

I do play GW2 on and off since launch but 100% for the world pvp to get my pvp dose.

I dont expect a holy graal soon in MMO market but I do feel for me atleast MMO in a general sense is gone.

MMOs have a somewhat unique struggle, in that if you build them around typical hero gameplay, it weakens the experience somewhat. Or, at the very least it weakens the staying power of the MMO.

Single player games don't have this problem. They can make you feel as powerful as you want. You can literally be a god amongst ants. You can be the most overpowered thing in the universe, and the game can make you feel like 'hey that was all you buddy!', which is something a lot of people want. Do too much of that in an MMO and you literally break the game for everyone.

As a result MMOs have to walk this sort of tightrope, appealing to everyone's egos (sense of heroism), while at the same time trying to provide balance / enjoyable gameplay. They also have to deal w/ the simple fact that there are just more games out now than have been in the past. This means more things competing for a player's freetime and less likely that your game will hold on to players for years and years.

That's one of the things GW2 seems to understand better than most other MMOs. It embraces this fact and plans accordingly.

Much of this discussion seems to boil down to a few simple issues.

1) Most gamers have trouble differentiating between good / bad game design and personal preference. You can enjoy a feature that is inherently 'bad design', but it can still be fun (for you). These are not necessarily mutually exclusive. For example, some people want a newer full-loot pvp game with updated graphics & all that and want it to be popular. However you can't have a system that inherently pushes players away from your game AND have it be well funded and popular at the same time. Within that context such a system IS bad design, but the key word there is context. Design is all about what you are trying to accomplish within a specific game, and not some over-arcing truth that applies to all games equally.

2) Many gamers seem to have trouble differentiating between community & gameplay. While good gameplay can absolutely help make a good community possible, having a good community is a separate thing entirely. There are communities for almost anything you can think of. What makes them good or not is entirely dependant on how they are handled, how the members are treated, and how they treat newcomers. When it comes to games this largely comes down to each dev's stance on community and how they choose to handle it. Some are much better at it than others.

With 'Old School' games there was a sort of 'in the trenches camaraderie', but many of the old school games actually didn't have great communities. However the few that stand out had really good ones. It was a lot more polarized back then, where as now it's more diffused over many different games.

3) A failure to understand how much the market has shifted. Certain aspects of those older MMOs just can't exist in today's market. The way people play games is so much different from how it was 10-20 years ago.

Love it, we actually get a well written article explaining (in quite good detail) how they are each their own game, and each good games in their own way. And we respond with....

**Que the endless bickering over which game is 'THE BEST'**

And we wonder why no games seem to hold our interest anymore. We get what looks to be a pretty good year for games, and we're too busy trying to argue how our favorite older game is 'still better'. Good grief.

It's actually OKAY to like more than one game. It's okay if you're favorite game isn't the hottest thing on the market every day, each year. Try and have some fun ffs.

Originally posted by Xorian7

If everyone has dps, cc, and heals then there is no true uniquness, the difference between mmorpgs now and then as some like everquest had a direct affect on the community those shaman buffs for health regen where truly needed in your group and made group play feel epic especially the person that provided those buffs. When you have lots of classes like that that offer amazing and unique things to group then yea group play will feel like crap compared to now.


Also comparing the vinly records makes no sense at all,  the mmorpg design isnt perfect in older mmos but the issue is none of it is adapted today this has nothing to do with old vs new, some of the design stands out for a reason, that is why people still play the original everquest that is why so many stated in swg that is why so many are still playing anarchy online or ashrons call, hell even dark ages of camelot, these games would not still exist today if there was bad design.

There are numerous examples that counter your first paragraph. Namely MOBAs, RTS, FPS, and nearly every single player RPG ever made. Heck, look at the final fantasy series for example. You could mould your party into the traditional trinity setup, give them specialized setups, but that was often not the best way of doing things. Furthermore, all characters could DPS, heal, and CC / Utility / Buff / Tank. Did this make them any less unique? Heck no. Even the MMOs tried to keep some of this in their games by allowing players to switch jobs and mix their own skills (to varying degrees of success).

Skills are tools, and plenty of games have found ways to make DPS skills different. Even some of the older MMOs did this by having different damage types & resistances. Fire dmg worked better for certain situaitons, whereas piercing dmg worked best for others. There's also sustain vs. burst, etc.

How interesting / unique the combat is, has nothing to do with how the roles are labelled, whether or not there's a trinity, or whether or not everyone deals damage. It comes down entirely to the mechanics, and how well designed the individual skills are (to hopefully have multiple uses) for versatility.

- The main things that set apart the older games from the new, is the lack of "?" driven quests (which some newer games have tried to do, but newer gamers just aren't receptive to that unfortunately), as well as some of the more sandboxy features older games had (which newer games have also / are also trying to do, with mixed success).

Originally posted by CrazKanuk

The end result of both systems is people leave. I think that we're on the cusp of making some dramatic changes in direction of the industry. The WoW clones are clearing out slowly and the focus is now on the game, or so it seems. That can only be a good thing. The only issue I foresee is devs missing the point that they can stuff all the features into a game that they like, but in the end, if I'm ever wondering why I'm bothering to do something, they've got a problem. 

Well said all around, though I think people put way too much emphasis on the games themselves when it comes to statements like this. People are going to leave regardless, it's the state of the market, and not so much any 1 particular genre of games.

The simple truth is we have way more options for games now than we did 20 years ago. We also as a society have way more things competing for our attention. Games, movies, television, toys / gadjets, work, women, kids, bills, events, etc. etc. etc. etc. the list just keeps growing. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but the result is that we have less time to stick around playing the same game for years on end. We have certain games (like MOBAs, FPS, and Minecraft) which allow people to play as much or as little as they want w/ minimal penalty.

MMOs, on the other hand, tend to be built solely around vertical progression, which doesn't work in such an environment. Content gating means that with every expansion / addition / gear tier, there are less players able to experience and appreciate that content. Whereas, in other genres, they go 'okay, we know most players won't stick around, we'll keep making optional "cool" stuff for them to want to come back to'. They accept that their game isn't permanent, and work with it instead of trying to fight it.

This is the main reason why we don't see many MMOs using the 'oldschool' design model. They are just too punishing to most players' current play habits.

Originally posted by Xorian7

So in other words people need to grow thicker skin, kiddies is actually a very polite term and fun term for kids, maybe where you live its different. And if people dont like my term im sorry but you need to get over it as I already explained what I meant by it and clearly I never meant it as an insult.

There seems to be an over attempt to discredit and troll me here I came in peace and people jumped to assumptions, there was no need to repost my entire topic to talk about this whole thing clearly this is getting silly and becoming a huge trolling issue. I suggest  you stop because your only discrediting yourselves.

My points still stand about mmorpgs, and they are very reasonable rather you like it or not period.

I'm going to have to side w/ Jean_Luc and the rest on this one.

You're going from a stance of 'I'm better than these people' to a stance of 'these people need to get better', which is essentially saying the same thing. Then you wonder why you're being called arrogant.

"Kiddies" may be a 'polite and fun term' in your own mindset. I'm sorry, but the rest of the world doesn't share that same viewpoint. Most kids hate that term (notably those in their teens / preteens), and there is no way that is anything but condescending and arrogant towards other adults. (Which, btw, these forums are full of)

Instead of trying to play the victim here, while simultaneously blaming others and labeling them inferior, perhaps try acting your age for a big? Your profile does indeed say you're 32, which makes you a legal adult. Another poster has already corrected one of your posts to say literally the exact same thing, but in a less condescending and more constructive manner.

You'll note that we are in the General Discussion part of the forums. Meaning there is no game being defended here. There are no agendas (other than perhaps your own), only people commenting on the flaws of your argument. If you are truly looking for an adult discussion (and not trying to troll-bait, flame, etc.), then exercise some of that thick skin you've been talking about, and open up to the possibility that maybe you're argument isn't perfect, nor being presented in the best way possible. That's a big part of having an adult conversation, being open to the possibility that you yourself might be wrong, or not entirely correct.

Originally posted by syntax42

I have realized that I have no interest in end-game content for most MMOs.  The ones I get bored the fastest with rely on a simple gear treadmill system to keep players playing when they hit the level cap.  Most of them make large, amazing worlds, but then funnel all level-capped players into instanced dungeons and all other content becomes irrelevant to the player.  A few games have the gear treadmill but still have plenty of meaningful content to experience and advance your character even if you're doing the gear treadmill.  I'm looking for more of those.  Anyone have any suggestions?

I avoid games which force non-consentual PvP.  Those bring out the worst type of people the world has to offer and I don't find it fun to get killed repeatedly by someone who just wants to ruin others' fun.  Any other game should be fine.

I would honestly suggest looking into GW2. It's pretty affordable (especially now that they've been doing huge discounts in prep for the new expansion), and the 'gear grind' is fairly minimal.

You can get full exotics without much effort (which is basically like the endgame base standard). You can do all of the endgame PvE (outside of fractals) with exotics. Which is the majority of the game, tbh. Fractals have their own specific type of gear which is harder to get, has slightly better stats, but is mostly used for a special resistance type that is only beneficial for that specific dungeon.

That said, the endgame is mostly about achievement hunting, exploration, acquiring cosmetic rewards, playing the market, crafting, and pvp (which isn't forced on you).

There are events going on all day every day that players take part in. Every zone has at least 1 world boss, etc. etc. etc.

- Word of caution, because this game isn't based on your standard gear treadmill, it plays quite a bit differently. Personal skill is a much larger factor in this game, than it is in other MMOs. At early lvls it may seem like the same type of game, but trust me it isn't. A lot of people get confused by that aspect of the game, because it tries to transition players who are used to gear treadmills into their own type of gameplay.

Originally posted by TurnX
Originally posted by Tymoris
After all they aren't saying "Be 50 with this high item level to do the unlock missions". They say "Do all the previous content because it's better to have arbitary hurdles to prolong the game's life".

You could argue that leveling from 1-50 is an arbitrary hurdle. Why don't they just let us be level 1 and start taking down raid bosees? It's because we are playing an RPG and a major cornerstone of any good RPG, whether it's an MMO or single player, is progression. Level progression and story progression are really the same thing, you are advancing your character through the game. I think people get caught up on their character level as some sort of end point and that's where things stop. Especially in a MMO there has to be more beyond that or people will lose interest.

Now I do think SE takes the story progression far more seriously than other game devs, but that have spent a lot of time/effort on the 2.1 to 2.55 content and it plays into the expansion very heavily. I think people just need to look past the arbitrary level cap and realize that level 50 is not the end of the current game, 2.55 is.

Everyone who signed up for this game elected to participate in arbitrary hurdles. That's what a vertical progression themepark is all about. It's still kind of amazing how often people complain about how this system works, and yet keep coming back to it.

I would say though that the emphasis on story does tend to set SE MMOs apart from others. It does tend to make them a bit more grindy, but it also tends to make your characters feel more involved than a lot of other games.

Originally posted by Foomerang

You know this is by far the best mmorpg I've played since swg, right? Yes this is a criticism of a game I love oh my gawd lol

Some of you take this way to personally like I'm kicking your puppy. Yes this is the largest barrier to entry I have experience in an mmo. There are many story driven MMOs that get you caught up to the current chapter in the span of a few quests, not hundreds.

It's OK to like a game without worshipping every detail. Real mature on some of you to come straight at me over a game.

Anyway, still playing the game. Still going to trudge through these mundane quests so I can enjoy the new awesome expansion. Still pointing out this is not a good decision on the devs part but it is what it is.

The problem is your "criticism" amounts to basically 'All I want to do is craft in this game, I bought the expansion without doing any real research on it, and now I'm bummed it doesn't cater specifically to me.'

That's not criticism. Criticism is taking a harsh, honest look at something; and trying to analyze it's strengths, weaknesses, and means for improvement. In most ways it's an academic exercise. Except you've done none of those things. You've complained, you've warned others that if they have your same needs with the game and have also done zero research they may also be disappointed. Which is all fine and good, but throwing the word critique on it doesn't make it so.

I'm sorry you feel you got screwed with the expac. I don't necessarily think it's the best way they could've done an xpac, however it's not necessarily bad design either (within the scope of FFXIV:ARR the game itself). However what you posted still amounts to glorified whining.

Hope you've found a way to enjoy the new content. I myself am not currently playing, but thinking about trying it again at some point once I have more free time.

Originally posted by MMOExposed

This is something I seen over the last few years from MMORPG's marketing teams.

But what exactly does it mean to them and to you?

Are there two different meaning to this statement? "ENDGAME STARTS AT LEVEL 1"

Only a few games have actually said that, the main one (who I believe started that) would be Anet w/ Guild Wars 2.

Essentially what it means is that the game is primarily horizontal with it's progression model. Meaning you don't need to grind to max lvl to enjoy the best content.

Obviously it's not a perfect statement, as you need to at first learn how the game works, and there are usually always things best done with more tools (or more lvls), it's more the general idea behind what the game is about.

I think PFO has a lot of potential (cautiously optimistic)

However, the whole sandbox vs. themepark is entirely a red herring. The problems MMOs face are mostly problems created from outside the genre. We (gamers) have been conditioned towards once-off disposable content. This has bled into every genre of gaming (MMOs included), and thus the problem of 'how best to deliver frequent / disposable content' was born.

Some games do this through modding, some through bite-sized content updates, some through player-generated content.

None of these solutions are restricted to themeparks nor sandbox models. Furthermore there are examples of all in each type of game.

It'll be interesting to see what (if anything) can recapture that 'play this game for 10 years' type of enjoyment. I'm mostly convinced the audience has changed too much for that to still work. There are too many games, too many flashy new releases, and a brand new game is always going to be more exciting than playing the same thing you've already been enjoying.

I really do hope this game breaks the mold, though. It has a lot of really good concepts, mechanics, and ideas that I've been wanting to implement into an MMO for close to a decade now.

Goddamn, is it even possible to have a decent discussion thread on this site anymore?

BOTH Skyrim & Witcher 3 are good games (objectively speaking). They both had clear objectives as to what they were trying to accomplish, and they both met them. BOTH games still have room for improvement, and it's perfectly fine to prefer one game over another.

It is absolutely laughable, though, to compare play times of a game released less than a week ago, to a game released in 2011. There are still people who played Witcher 1/2 up until the release of Witcher 3. There are still quite a lot of people enjoying the game, and (as always) there are those that ignored 90% of the content and rushed through the main storyline. Which, btw, also happened with Skyrim.

The main thing Skyrim has over most other ARPGs is the modding. But it's kinda pointless comparing a heavily modded game to a base release.

Wow the misinformation in this thread.

First off, poison is not (and never has been) a primary source of damage. People focusing on poison only for it's DPS are completely missing the point of that condition. Poison is mostly there for anit-healing, and as a 'condi-cap' (i.e. you have to remove it before getting to the ones that actually dish out a lot of damage).

This is why poison is actually really good for power builds. You dish out a bunch of burst damage + poison, and they have to remove it first or they can't heal the damage up. This is what makes some builds that have spammable poison so obnoxious to deal with (unless you're a guardian / ele).

- That said, Power necros are actually very strong in PvP. It's weird that they are giving them yet another power spec, which sounds very similar to the one necros already have, but more melee focused. It will be interesting to see how the 'charge-up, but powerful' attacks compare to the already present life blast / death shroud abilities.

Considering you can already spam 4-9k cirts with life blast / lich form (which are ranged attacks), it's going to be interesting to see how a melee version of that can compete.

Either way, it does look fun.

Originally posted by FrodoFragins
Originally posted by Sukiyaki
Originally posted by Alber_gamer
This will fail hard. HotS lacks substance, tactical appeal and maturity in all levels to be a successful eSport.

It also lacks fluid and polished gameplay, quality art and design, graphic quality and high fps perfomance despite the craptastic looks.... and so much more compared to already existing contenders.

This game is simply a cashgrab trying to monetize big on the Blizzzard and Warcraft brand hype.

I think the gameplay of HOTS is much more polished than DOTA2.  But HoTS lacks what is required to be popular on the esport front.

More simplistic definitely, more polished, hardly. DOTA2 has had years of fine tuning, balancing, and updates on HotS. It's a much more strategic and complex game (by far). There's a reason it's still one of the top esports games, even though it's not the most popular MOBA anymore.

What HotS is doing is basically a 180 from what DOTA established. They're going for accessibility over gameplay. In that regard, they've succeeded. The problem is (and a lot of people forget this), MOBAs are first  and foremost games of strategy. The core of MOBAs lies in tactical gameplay and decision-making. They came from RTS after all.

What's happened is that most players only want to focus on the action (fighting) and ignore all the tactics (it's too 'hard', requires too much thought), and thus we have HotS.

The problem is, it's going to be hard to really have an interesting eSport w/ HotS, considering how shallow the gameplay is. I may not like playing LoL all that much, but the pro games are a hellova lot more entertaining than HotS to watch, same goes for DoTA2, and SMITE is slowly getting there. I just don't see what niche Blizzard is looking to fill when it comes to esports. They have Starcraft 2 still, If they want to expand they need to make more games of that caliber.

The thing about guilds is that the ones that last form communities. It's easy to form a guild, it takes a lot of work / time / effort to make a community. Not everyone can do it. Guilds like the Good Squad are communities that form guilds. What most people tend to do is form a guild and hope it becomes a community.

The ironic thing is that the guilds that tend to fail are the selfish ones. The ones that want everyone to give up everything 'for the guild'. The ones that accept that people have lives, play more than one game, and do other things besides play video games tend to do much, much better.

Originally posted by Tracho12

Does anyone play games anymore? or do we all just copy and paste the meta builds then gloat about how awesome we are because we have no imagination and can follow a guide that someone else wrote.

Every game it's the same darn thing. It's meta, meta, meta or you lose, lose, lose. Multiplayer gaming isn't fun anymore. You either treat it like a job and win or you treat it like recreation and you lose. 

Going back to single player, this garbage sucks.

Do you?

META builds are there because they give the highest chance of success. You only NEED to play meta if you NEED the highest chance of winning (aka you aren't skilled enough at the game to handle less-optimal builds).

As for LFD/LFG/LFR, you are actively queing into that mindset. There are groups that aren't that hardcore, I found some just the other day in LFD in GW2. Just need to be a little patient. Or.. you could do the logical thing and make your own group. Like the saying goes, 'if you want something done right, do it yourself.'

Do I get bored w/ META in certain games, absolutely. However I dont log in for 2 secs, see that there is a meta, blame everything on that & rage quit. If I wanna play non-meta, then I play non-meta. Or I play w/ friends who I know I won't have to carry.

In GW2 you can beat any dungeon w/ any comp. So just run casual groups with people that know what they're doing.

In WvW the 3 classes are described are nuisance classes. Only way they kill you is if you play into their builds. SA thieves basically just spam hit & run tactics, force them to use their cooldowns chasing you and they will usually just run away. PU mesmers basically rely on you to kill yourself. Condi engies are annoying, but they're kind of like PU mesmers. They rely on you to play into their build and get yourself killed.

All of that can be avoided, and there are stronger meta builds atm. If you want to learn them play more sPvP.

As for WoW / HS / HotS. I don't what to tell you other than 'it's Blizzard'. Blizzard makes fun games, but the last complex game they really made was SC2. Their current interest over the last decade or so has been in making casual / accessible games in untapped genres, to try and diversify their profits. If I wanted a serious PvP game I would honestly look elsewhere, there are tons of options right now in that regard.

Originally posted by Rhoklaw
Originally posted by aesperus
Originally posted by Soki123
We hated this game now we love it, not sure why but it happened. Something happened to make it better and we re happy about it.

Honestly the game hasn't changed all that much.

Some stability fixes and the new skill system are nice, but I'm pretty sure you (and your wife) are the ones that changed. This is actually a very common thing that most people overlook / don't realize. Your own perceptions / preconceptions / prejudices towards things affect your enjoyment of them in a very tangible way.

Too much hype (positive or negative) tends to lessen players' enjoyment of a game. It's always the games that you expect nothing from that you find the most enjoyment out of.

Uhm, please just don't. The game has made a complete 180 from launch. It is nothing like it was and the newly added features have only made it better. I played BETA and knew it was horrible back than and passed on purchasing. Decided to make good on the Christmas sale and been playing ever since. Probably one of the few MMO's that allow you to design some pretty awesome classes. Such as my electrocution assassin that regens health on crits. Won't find anything that cool in another MMO outside maybe ArcheAge.

The PvE is growing and definitely still solo friendly outside of the normal group content found in most MMO's. As for Cyrodill, it's simply done right and once the Imperial capital city gets finished, I can't wait to see what it offers.

You can put your fanclub jacket & membership card away.

The game is still ESO, it isn't drastically different from what it was at launch, unless you barely played it at launch. Has it improved? Absolutely. They've added a lot of QOL changes and a couple new systems. That's it.

If you're trying to start and argument about how great the game is, you're barking up the wrong tree. This isn't the post, or the thread you're looking for.

Originally posted by Soki123
We hated this game now we love it, not sure why but it happened. Something happened to make it better and we re happy about it.

Honestly the game hasn't changed all that much.

Some stability fixes and the new skill system are nice, but I'm pretty sure you (and your wife) are the ones that changed. This is actually a very common thing that most people overlook / don't realize. Your own perceptions / preconceptions / prejudices towards things affect your enjoyment of them in a very tangible way.

Too much hype (positive or negative) tends to lessen players' enjoyment of a game. It's always the games that you expect nothing from that you find the most enjoyment out of.

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