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All Posts by Jimmy_Scythe

All Posts by Jimmy_Scythe

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I think I need to clarify the difference between a time sink and actual gameplay. A time sink requires almost no involvement from the player. At all. Or it requires zero effort from the player. Killing ten rats in an MMO takes zero skill or serious decision making in most MMOs while the random encounters at the beginning of the first Phantasy Star games are all painfully difficult battles to the death. The amount by which the player is actively engaged and entertained by the game is the key here.

Mining in Eve really isn't all that different from playing Farmville on Facebook. Sure, you have a sense of progression, but you aren't really playing the game. You're just clicking your button every 30 minutes to two hours. This kind of slow, deliberate play can work in browser-based 4X games where your decisions carry  more weight than your own progression, but not so much in something like an MMORPG.

Think of it this way: I can play through any given Rogue-like in about eight straight hours (if I'm REALLY lucky and play perfectly). Rogue-likes aren't padded with time sinks, they're just hard as holy hell. Yet because I have to make multiple attempts (you have to reroll a fresh character when you die in a roguelike) the game can actually take a lot longer. The game itself keeps me playing and coming back for more without gating the content according to some arbitrary time investment.

My questions still stand. Why use time sinks to get people to pay a subscription when monthly content updates could do the same thing? And why use grind as punishment for not buying from the cash shop when there are other means of getting people to buy virtual items (i.e. vanity and novelty)?

Time sinks are just bad business all the way around.

It doesn't really make any sense. I realize that F2P games use the grind as 'stick' in order to get players to buy stuff from the cash shop, but aren't there more immediate ways that you can "encourage" your player base to buy that crap. If the goal is to get people to pay for junk, time seems like a horrible way to do it since there will always be people that are willing to waste their lives rather than pay for anything.

The same question applies to subscription games. When your players spend huge amounts of time playing your game, the bandwidth costs eat up your revenue. The less time people play per session, the more money you make because you aren't spending as much on bandwidth. Rather than demanding players sit on their asses for 20+ hours a week, why not just use that sub money for monthly content expansions. You could still do one major box expansion every year just to get a spike in returning players.

I just don't see endless grinding and tedious OCD gameplay as a win-win situation for developers, publishers or gamers. There are more effective ways to keep people paying those subs and buying those items.

Originally posted by bastionix
Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe

First person shooters are a LOT better with mouse and keyboard

Only in multiplayer and then only in high level play. The vast majority of FPS players suck. Just download and play something like Combat Arms and you'll see exactly what I mean. Hell, I only play FPS games casually and I can usually rank in the top three on any server I play on. Of course I've been playing these games since the original Wolfenstien 3D.

Single player FPS is a non-issue and nobody's goddamn business except the person playing the game.

FPS were dumbed down because of consoles.

In Quake and UT we had hitscan weapons and instagib. CoD and Halo don't have this, the reason is consoles. With hitscan you get 1 chance and 1 chance only, you need perfect and fast aim. You can only get that trough a mouse.

I like consoles heh, but FPS on consoles is really really bad and so are the FPS games.

Instagib: only possible on PC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYdDilyQBSs

UT and Quake3 are real FPS, CoD and Halo is for the kiddies on consoles.

No.

I've played both UT 2003 and UT 3 with an XBOX 360 controller, no autoaim. Not only can I get headshots on a regular basis, but I still place in the top five in a maxed out deathmatch server. I have no problem winning DM games against Adept level bots, even in instagib, using the 360 controller. The majority of players are just not on the level where those factions of seconds matter.

In a pro tournament, I would get creamed using a controller. In an online Pickup game however, I can hold my own just fine regardless.

Originally posted by Garvon3
Originally posted by Brenelael

The only genre I can think of that is definitely better with a mouse and keyboard is RTS

Flight simulator

I take it you haven't played a real flight sim in a long, long time. Not only is this an incredibly niche genre, but it is also not something you do with a computer you just bought from Best Buy and unboxed five minutes ago. Here's a picture of what a typical flight sim geek will go through for their hobby:

You could do the same thing for consoles, but you'd really be limiting your potential market. Don't believe me? Remember Steel Battalion?

'Nuff said.

complex RPGs

Nice use of the subjective term "complex." The only RPGs that I can think of that wouldn't be possible on consoles are Roguelikes and that's because they are driven completely by hundreds of keyboard commands. Sure, you could replace all the ASCII characters with graphics and use mouse driven graphical user interface instead of hundred upon hundreds of hotkeys, but then people like you couldn't sneer at the vast masses that only want to play a game and not wade through an encyclopedic user manual.

Turn based RPGs are based entirely on menus that can be navigated easily with a gamepad. Most real-time RPGs are also in easily adapted to the gamepad. I would challenge you to show me any RPG that was to "complex" for a gamepad but I have feeling that you'd just give me a link to Dwarf Fortress. <sigh> Just watch this and you'll see where I'm coming from...

MMORPGs

MMORPGs have been made for consoles before and will be made for them again. The main thing keeping us from seeing more MMORPGs on consoles is the attitude of the console manufacturers who don't want to share their online goodies with anyone else. Sony is company that lets third party developers run their own servers, and they keep making consoles that are a huge pain in the ass to develope games on. So yeah...

First person shooters are a LOT better with mouse and keyboard

Only in multiplayer and then only in high level play. The vast majority of FPS players suck. Just download and play something like Combat Arms and you'll see exactly what I mean. Hell, I only play FPS games casually and I can usually rank in the top three on any server I play on. Of course I've been playing these games since the original Wolfenstien 3D.

Single player FPS is a non-issue and nobody's goddamn business except the person playing the game.

Originally posted by Kratier

its like trying to listen to the filth people spew about how kinect is "here to stay"

Okay, I Just want to clarify something here. Did you just claim that the Kinect is obscene? As in, you are deeply, morally outraged by the Kinect?

.... They're just video games.... Calm down....

Originally posted by Flynnigan

Halo is also for PC aswell.

Yes, that's true but....

The multiplayer servers are separate for the two games. Controllers a probably alright for single player games on any platform, but the mouse allows almost zero turning speed, precision, and the ability to aim while jumping. Even with the stick sensitivity cranked on a controller, there will be time delay while the cursor moves. For most everyday purposes, this won't be an issue because the majority of people don't play at a high enough level for it to matter. But once you start playing with some experienced players those fractional seconds make hella difference.

It's really too bad that most FPS games don't have a ladder system like Starcraft 2.

Originally posted by Evasia
 

PC is dying anyway so its prolly smart move.

Vista killed pc and MS somehow gave up also where is dx11 games and i mean full dx11 games not some games with some littlee chances that dx11 have(all games are still dx9.0c) plus all illegal dl games.

Im diehard pc gamer have top notch high end pc system for what?...playing all new games in dx9.0c lol :(

Most games are released mainly and first these days for consoles anyway, so i dont have any hope soon pc will take back that what there good at and that is showing games in full hd 1080p with all very high settings and aa on high resolutions, but im affraid those days are over.

I almost dont buy games anymore i have alot games bought over past 12 years all bought in shops with box and never dl a game for free but it dind't help one bit:(

Ironlore(titan quest) bankrupt there game was more illegally dl then realy bought radion labs(drakensang) bankrupt becouse same as ironlore and so many more good developers died out in last few years:(

Makers of witcher maybe also have same problem soon or divinity2 its sad seeing such good rpg makers die out:(

What we get terible dragon age2 thats pure made for console and pc get this crap also with terible grafhics:(

 

But dont worry jimmy your winning this battle hands down console is way to go for almost all developers only few like CDproject witcher one few only release on pc and some smaller developers but its all about money so PC is losing big time.

You have me pegged all wrong friend.

I could seriously give a rats rotten ass about the whole console vs. PC debate. I had my days as a "hardcore" PC gamer and I've long since come out the other side. Nowadays, I play a good game even if it's on the back of a cerial box. Platform does not matter to me anymore.

And maybe that's why these little flame wars about control systems irrritate me. They're particularly assinine. I've outgrown the argument, as have many people, but it still pops up time and time again. It's like listening to the same song over and over againg. It gets really fucking old.

If you like the PC, more power to you. I'm currently devising my own plan for gaming happiness that involves maximizing the amount of games I have using the fewest platforms possible. I'm thinking a PC (thinking in terms of five years between upgrads), an open source handheld for emulation purposes, and one mainstream handheld which will probably be Sony's upcoming NGP thing.

Explination? The PC gets most of the major release console ports and I can use a 360 controller with it, I can't quite afford a good MAME cabinet yet, so one of the GP2X models would be fine until I can build one, and the NGP will allow me to play fairly modern games anywhere I please. Between those three platforms, there's a lot of game to be had. Although I suppose you could do that with any three platforms. The PC may not be getting as many AAA exclusives as it used to, but there's a huge back catalog, tons of indie/freeware games, and a whole lot of non-RPG F2P games on the platform. It isn't a bad time to be a PC gamer at all.

Kinda sucks that you bought way more machine that you need, but that's on you. The industry changed and you didn't. The days when you were obligated to upgrade every six months are long gone.

Blizzard is talking about making a console version of Diablo 3.

Checking out the comments section, the verdict was pretty split on whether or not this would be a good thing. Then some asshole pulled the "Diablo is too complicated for gampads HERF DERP DERP!!!"

Really? To complicated for a gamepad? Seriously? Seriously?

The entire game is played with a two button mouse for fucks sake! On a console you would control the character directly and attack/cast spells in the direction you were facing. Health potion spam on the right shoulder, Mana potion spam on the left shoulder, A attacks, B casts, X opens inventory, Y opens character data. The entire interface could work with a Super Nintendo Controller and have buttons to spare. See also Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance and Champions of Norrath.

I'm getting really tired of the controllers are for retards argument. I've been tired of it for a long time now. If you honestly think this way then you need to take a deep breath, take a step back, and realize that you aren't a video game interface designer. There are people that do this kind of thing for a living and they probably know more than you do about the subject. Your anger and outrage is pure fanboy zealotry. Let it go.

I've had my share of being proven wrong. I just recently switched to using the keyboard for fighting games. Why? Because some fighting game fans made a stickless fighting stick that is actually faster than a gamepad or fighting stick. I still preferr to play platform games with a retro controller and single player action games with a XBox 360 pad, but that's an aesthetic choice based on the fact that a gamepad is more comfortable to me.

Every time someone brings up a PC genre on consoles, we have this same argument. The answer will always be the same. It depends on how the controller interfaces with the game. Just because you don't have anything that compares with the standard now, doesn't mean that it isn't possible or won't happen.

So I'm scrolling through my news reader today when I see this

I stopped dead in my tracks. For the record, there is really nothing special about this game. But because of this image, I read the post, and watched the trailer. I actually gave this cookie cutter Korean grindfest the time of day because I apparently can't resists Gun Fu lolis. Trust to know, you cannot possibly be more disturbed by that than I am.

Looking at my anime collection just confirmed this quirk. Gunslinger Girl, check. Grenadier, check. Given, this isn't like Werewolves in Tophats, but I gotta admit that I wasn't really ready to be so easily disarmed by an ad.

So what bizarre shit has ever grabbed your attention? You know, something that made you take a second look at a game that you knew was probably going to be shit anyway.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that my favorite character in Blazblue is Noel Vermillion...

... so... yeah...

Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Ok I have snapped, its not the first time but I am exploring games at the moment and the total maasive amounts of kiddy bubblegum games is freaking me out man! I think in my entire MMO lifespan I have only known one player below the age of 20. come on please!

 

Yeah, male menopause is a bitch.

I'm not there yet, but I'm not looking forward to it.

Grind.

Today's hardcore is tomorrow's casual. I swear to the Gods that I don't believe in that I saw a review of Quake Live Arena for XBLA and they described it as an “arcadey, twitchy, casual shooter.” But why would Quake be considered casual and not Call of Duty? The reason is because CoD has locked content that can only be made available through experience grinding. Games that don't have achievements or gated content are now considered casual. Maybe I should start by defining what I mean by the term “grind.”

 

Grind, as it applies to video games, is the pointless repetition of an action long beyond the point of mastery for the sole purpose of gaining some kind of reward. Like killing a relatively weak enemy over and over again for gold and XP that you'll use to unlock game content. The important point however, is that the action has to be something that the player has mastered to the point of being trivial and boring. Hardcore gamers “work” for their entertainment by grinding while casual gamers expect to be entertained and gratified from the word go. So now let's step back a little bit and see how did we got here.

 

Back in the day, hardcore gamers would spend endless hours playing their favorite games. Back then however, the games themselves were much, much shorter and much, much harder. If you wanted to beat Contra, Ninja Gaiden, Battletoads, etc., you had to sink a lot of effort into it and deal with the frustration of dying and starting over. Over and over again. And that was if you wanted to see the ending at all. Honestly, if it hadn't been for the Game Genie I would have never seen the ending of Ninja Gaiden. There is a reason why these games got the moniker of “Nintendo Hard.

 

RPG games of the time were no different. To get an idea of what RPGs were like in the mid to late eighties and early nineties, go download Stone Soup Dungeon Crawl. Better yet, find a copy of DOSbox and website with the original Bard's Tale. These games were exercises in cartography and logistics, the likes of which would send Louis and Clark into screaming fits of insanity.

 

The point of all of this is that hardcore was not a function of time, but of effort. And somewhere along the line, game developers missed the point completely and just started making games that were long. Instead of keeping players engaged by pushing their skills to the limit, game developers chose to simply reward players at arbitrary intervals in order to keep their attention. I guess I can see the logic... sort of. If hardcore is all about dedication to a game then what can be more dedicated than a player sitting through hours of mind numbing boredom to get a meaningless achievement or an in-game item that grants no gameplay advantage whatsoever? I guess that's great for the OCD crowd, but the rest of us are fucking bored.

 

Then again, today's hardcore is tomorrow's casual. And I recoil in complete horror from imagining the game that renders WoW Raids or Eve Online's Nullsec PvP “casual.”

Originally posted by Josher
Originally posted by spizz

A 30 yr mortgage is fairly standard in the US as well.   People often refinance when rates drop to pay it off sooner under NORMAL conditions that is.  This time around people took on massive mortgages hoping they'll just sell for a BIG profit in a few years or in just a few months, which works fine unless EVERYONE is doing it at the same time.  Then the bottom drops out.  We can partly blame the media for hyping home sales so much.  Too many people who didn't have a clue got on the bandwagon to make a quick buck and flip homes.  It was so easy to do since as long as you could temporarily pay the mortgage until you sold the next one, no big deal right=)  Untill...EVERYONE is doing it, hehe.  STUPID people.  The only smart ones were those who got in early and got out before it all went to hell.   Anyone who couldn't afford 2 mortgages yet did it anyway I really don't feel sorry for.  Not in the slightest.  Same with those who signed ARMs or only pay off the minimum CC payment because its so darn cheap to do.  Cheap, hehe.

Nope, we can still blame the people who took out mortgages as a business venture. If you're going to make a money making decision, you have to do the research and educate yourself as much as possible. If these people had even a crash course in economic theory, they would have understood why mortgaging with the intent of selling later was a bad idea at the time.

Maybe this will help you to understand.

As time goes by, I become more and more aware of the fact that politicians exist soley to take the blame for everyone's fuck ups. Seriously. America operates with or without the interference of government. Problem is that we don't want to take any responsibility when everything goes to hell. That's where your Presidents and Congressmen come in.

"It wasn't me!" Mister incompetent CEO says, "It was that restrictive EPA regulation that was passed by Senator HumpetySquatt!"

"It wasn't me!" Mister Joe Sixpack the consumer says, "It was the dishonest banks loaning me money that they knew I couldn't repay!"

Whatever...

You want to know how to change things? Stop barrowing money and buying shit you don't need. Save your money and invest it in growing U.S. Businesses that provide jobs to U.S. citizens. Stop using your credit card to pay your bills.

Seriously, Germany is in the same recession that we are and they're doing okay. Yeah, I know. Doing all of those things takes more time and work than changing channels on a TV set or posting bullshit political attacks on an internet forum. I guess the best thing about democracy is also the best thing about capitalism: the people in both systems may not get what they need, but they DO GET exactly what they deserve.

Actually, Blizzard has gotten in contact with said modder and invited him to the main offices to meet with the Starcraft 2 developement team. From the sounds of things, Blizzard wants to see how this mod turns out. Then again, they just may want to distract this guy so that he doesn't take up the job that Riot Games offered him.

Originally posted by SHOE788
Originally posted by daeandor
Originally posted by SHOE788
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
Originally posted by Cody1174

Some are born that way, Some are born more susceptible, and some just turn to the same sex for various reasons.

Its pretty simple,   If a baby can be born with both female and male sex organs, They can be born with hormonal and psychological mismatches....

There are so many genetic mutations and imbalances with child birth....

 

This seems to make the most sense. It seems that if a child can be born with both sex organs, they can be born with different sexual orientations as well.

Claiming everyone on the planet is born with exactly the same sexual orientation is just as ridiculous as claiming everyone is born the exact same height.

People are different from one another in  many ways.

I think some people just cling to the idea that everyone must be like they are. I am this way, therefore everyone else must be too. They are either just that dumb, or just have no ability to emphathize with others, or perhaps are just narcisistic.

I've read a few studies that have said that true heterosexuals are very rare. They sampled men that considered themselves heterosexual on their pornography habits and found that the majority of men prefer at least one male in their pornography. Men who watch exclusively lesbian pornography are said to be 0s, or exclusively heterosexual.

That is the biggest load of crap in my opinion.  I'm going to take a complete SWAG as to why male porn users want at least one male in their porn:  fantasy.  Males want to see themselves as the male in the porn.

 

Although I would like to know how they came to that conclusion in your "few studies."

A big assumption that is made is where exactly the pornagraphy stands, yes. The mere existance of a male in pornagraphy which then a male watches is only assumed to be partly homosexual, but there is no proof that it is. That's psychology though.

But you sound kind of angry. Is it because you aren't as labeled as straight as you thought you were?

I'm a two on that scale up there, I've actually had male sex partners, and I agree with daeandor's evaluation. When I watch straight porn, I'm putting myself in the place of the man. And when I watch gay porn I put myself in the place of the top. The whole point of porn is to live vicariously. This is the main reason that I don't like movies with black men in the role that I prefer since I just can't put myself in their place.

Originally posted by Xirik
Originally posted by SHOE788
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
Originally posted by xpowderx

 You also have to be point blank to use a knife.

Not necassarily

Not to mention that it takes SOME skill to actually wield a knife correctly while anyone could pick up a machine gun and blast away.

Also a gun can cause more damage faster then a knife

it seems here that some idiots forget that guns nearly made knives and swords almost none existant in the military.

Hypothetical situation: How many people do you think you can stab in Grand Central Station during rush hour before anyone knows what's happening? If you stab from behind, with a four inch blade, you can puncture a lung. This would prevent the victim from crying out and actually cause them to drown in their own blood. It's quiet, it doesn't take a lot of skill, and all you need is a big ass crowd to blend into.

With one trip to the gas station and hardware store, one can fashion a pipe bomb far deadlier than any spree shooter could ever dream of being. The materials needed would be:

1 foot of lead pipe with two end caps.

1 pound of sawdust

1 gallon of gasoline

a small pack of tacks or window edges

and a cloth or small electronic timer

I don't think I have to go into the details of the construction. And don't give me that shit about how the work involved would be a deterent. If the gunman at Virginia Tech and this guy could go through all the paper work AND sit through the waiting period then I'm sure that some other off-balance retard can go through the trouble of making a small satchel of homebrew hand grenades. Hell, even a home made blowgun with rat poison coated darts is cheaper, quieter and just as deadly as most firearms.

Humans are very creative when it comes to killing things. Just because you take away one tool doesn't mean that other, even less pleasant, tools won't take their place.

Originally posted by generals3
Originally posted by Josher
 

First of all "Nazi's" is a very wide term. There is for instance a difference between the Gestapo who's sole purpose was to hunt people down who Hitler didn't like and the Wehrmacht or even the SS who were military branches. Joining the Army is something you do to serve your country, you cannot start saying all these soldiers were monsters , many may have been , but generalisations have only lead to bad things.

Problem is that we aren't talking about all Nazis. We are talking specifically about those that were working at the camps. Now I'm not an expert on German military protocall during WWII, but I do know that here in the United States enlisted personel are not obligated to follow unlawful orders. In other words, if your commanding officer tells you to rape a five year old girl, you have the right (and moral obligation) to insuborination. Violating the rules relating to the treatement of prisoners of war, as laid out by the Geneva Convention, would be considered an unlawful order.

For all intents and purposes, the men that were gaurding those camps were complacent in the crimes commited there and just as guilty as their superiors.

Originally posted by Xirik
Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe

I just want to address the warzone comment above.

I live in a warzone. The war in question is the war on drugs and it eats young men and innocent bystanders by the fucking truckload. Yes, I'm in a major city. Yes, this area is constantly patrolled by police and covered with cameras. But if shit goes down it still takes the cops about forty minutes to two hours to get there. Ask a cop in this nieghborhood what you can do and they'll tell you to go buy a gun if you're legally able to do so. By the time the police actually arrive it's going to be way to late.

If you really want to end gun violence in the United States, end the unconstitutional war on drugs. You'll be amazed how quickly things quiet down.

Number of people killed by guns in 2006 in England & Wales (population 53 million): 46

Number of people killed by guns in 2006 in New York City (population 8 million):  590

Number of people killed by guns in the United States in 2004: 29,569 

Percentage breakdown by US gun deaths in 2004, by type:

 

 

 

  • 16,750 suicides (56% of all U.S. gun deaths)
  •  

     

  • 11,624 homicides (40%)
  •  

     

  • 649 unintentional shootings, 311 from legal intervention and 235 from undetermined intent (4%).
  • In 1998 (the most recent year for which this data has been compiled), handguns murdered:

     

     

     

  • 373 people in Germany
  •  

     

  • 151 people in Canada
  •  

     

  • 57 people in Australia
  •  

     

  • 19 people in Japan
  •  

     

  • 54 people in England and Wales, and
  •  

     

  • 11,789 people in the United States (suicides not included)
  • Sources:  CDC National Center for Health Statistics mortality report online, 2007; Illinois Council Against Handgun Violence; The Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence

     

    and my favourite above all

    http://www.nationmaster.com/red/country/us-united-states/cri-crime&b_cite=1&b_define=1

    And all those pretty statistics have precisely fuck all to do with the post that you quoted. Thank you for playing.

    BTW, sorry about rainbow reply but for some reason the site's browser editor didn't partion the top box off.

    I just want to address the warzone comment above.

    I live in a warzone. The war in question is the war on drugs and it eats young men and innocent bystanders by the fucking truckload. Yes, I'm in a major city. Yes, this area is constantly patrolled by police and covered with cameras. But if shit goes down it still takes the cops about forty minutes to two hours to get there. Ask a cop in this nieghborhood what you can do and they'll tell you to go buy a gun if you're legally able to do so. By the time the police actually arrive it's going to be way to late.

    If you really want to end gun violence in the United States, end the unconstitutional war on drugs. You'll be amazed how quickly things quiet down.

    Originally posted by Josher
    Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe
    Originally posted by pyrofreak
    Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe

    Did you just blame the white man for black people killing each other?

    Well.... I don't know about THE white man....

    After all, I've always been under the impression that there are billions of us. But yes, a small handful of old, wealthy, backward looking white men used their media influence to promote the age old image of the criminalized black man. The result was a couple of generations of African-American kids growing up with that image as the only route to success as a black person. Worse, it gave those kids the idea that the "thug" was the only legitimate black identity. The spiral is coming to end, slowly, but it shouldn't have started in the first place.

    Hehe...its white people who created the gang member black lifestyle image?   White people invented all that?   They might of actually EXPOSED the lifestyle to the masses, but they sure as hell didn't create it.  Black people did that all themselves.  Talk about white guilt....YIKES!!!  W\hat the hell isn't our fault with this logic?

    You need not to have invented fire in order to pour gasoline on it.

    The shift from progressive black images to the modern Hip Hop minstrel show was largely orchestrated by corporations that were looking to expand the market to white kids. Currently, 70% of all Hip Hop is bought by middle class, suburban white kids. The companies that bought up the small studios where just doing what they had always done with African-American culture. They took what was there, magnified all the negative aspects, and sold it to other white people as "real talk." The problem was that a lot of black kids took this as the real deal too.

    At the time of the shift, the black middle class was actually growing. That demographic is still growing. In fact, the highest SAT scores are no longer held by Asians. The new top scores belong to the black, first and second generation children of African and Caribean immigrants. The media rarely acknowledges this change.

    So, no, we didn't invent black gang culture. But we did promote "thug" culture over that of the African-American middle class. And let's not pretend that white people don't have gangs too. Hell, you can find gangs as far back as the lower middle ages, if not in ancient Greece and Rome.

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