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All Posts by GeezerGamer

All Posts by GeezerGamer

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Originally posted by TheQuietGamer
Originally posted by ReallyNow10

This has been bandied about for ages on this site, but I feel some very basic clarification may needed.

 

Single Player RPG

Linear, pre-fabricated storyline with some branching decision points.

World is a back drop or merely a set for scenes.

"Think of a line (or a path) as a metaphor for such a game."

 

MMORPG

Free destiny for players.  Their dynamic in-game realities become their stories and need not be pre-written or overly guided.

World is the environment.

"Think of a circle."

Your single player RPG definition sounds a hell of a lot like many recent mmo's.  

I agree.

OP, Have you played recent RPGs and recent MMORPGs? Your definitions may have worked a long time ago, but presently, they are reversed. Single player games are getting more expansive with more options for play while MMORPGs are getting narrower with fewer choices.

Is that site posting official numbers released from ANET, or is this some Chinese marketing ploy again? Didn't we go through something similar to this a couple years ago where some Chinese marketing site was claiming some outrageously high number of concurrent daily logins and it was proven to be false?

I like GW2, it's a great game, I have no reason to doubt its success, but unofficial player base numbers quoted from unofficial Chinese marketing sites making unconfirmed claims tend to raise red flags for me.

Originally posted by DMKano
With many recent MMOs playing like single player games already, what would be the point?

This was my thought. MMORPGs need to break away from Single player. We can't all be the Dovahkiin.

 
What? Where?
Good bye
General Discussion « ArcheAge
7/05/14 10:25:01 AM
So? What's the big deal? Isn't this a P2W game in it's other 2 markets? What will it matter when it's going to be all about the real $$$$$ anyway?
Originally posted by Robokapp

WoW crafting is deplorable.

 

it was So-so in BC but it plummeted after.

 

I was one of the few people who had the plans for the Oathkeeper's Helm. a very lime-green ugly-looking t4-equivalent helm for paladin tanks.

 

so every paladin tank who wanted to start raiding would try to get that ugly helm. He'll find someone wearing it (not hard, it's green and ugly), inspcet.  . Send Robokapp a mail and arrange a craft.

 

Need a mongoose enchant? surely you added someone who has the recepy on your friends list, right?

 

------------

 

then it became a "I think my alt has it".

broken  (fixed it)

WoW's philosophy after TBC was that crafting was for leveling and then to take you to the doorstep of endgame but not through the door.

As if that philosophy wasn't bad enough, it didn't work. Problem is that you level too fast to need crafting for leveling purposes. The crafting does not support that process.

Once at cap, there are means that are faster and easier to get better gear that what you can craft. (Timeless Isle) And now with RNG factors where you don't even have any control over the item you create, it's pointless to craft. The only thing you need are the skill points for the min/max factor. You don't need any recipies beyond what it takes to level the craft to get your stat bonuses.

Originally posted by LungingWolf

 


Originally posted by sfc1971
The same old lie repeated:

 


It is NOT normal and healthy for a MMO to loose players after a short period of time. ONLY failed MMO's do this. Eve Online still grows and of course WoW took well over half a decade before it started to decline.

That virtually every other MMO can't keep it up doesn't mean this is "normal and healthy", it is failure. A successful MMO GROWS by word of mouth advertising. That is how most products become a success. Did GMail start losing subscribers 3 months after it launched? No. Did facebook?

Do successful television series peek at the pilot and then decline? No.

The definition of success is growth. ESO ain't growing, it is shrinking. Therefor it is a failure. Finding its niche? Eve Online is a niche game, it is growing.


 


I agree with this. This phenomenon of initial big spikes of incoming and outgoing players in new MMORPGs always struck me as players checking out the new MMORPGs in question and leaving them unsatisfied. And, of course, in the wake of such spikes, the remaining loyal supporters of the games in question rationalize this away as "normal and healthy".


I feel that it is the same basic issue with the current "F2P" trend in MMORPGs. The players do not feel that the MMORPGs of today in general are worthy of a subscription fee, so they just refuse to pay the said fee. But, of course, many players have gotten into the "free stuff" madness, so they rationalize this as "the enlightened business philosophy of the future".


Failure is being spun as the new norm, thanks to the legions of fans out there who take the sophistry of defensive rationalization to new levels.


I'm sorry to be such a downer, but it has to be said. MMORPGs need to be living, sustainable worlds. And you just can't get that by designing linear, single-player focused, themepark MMORPGs. Sure, many people might love these types of MMORPGs and defend them to the bitter end, but they're bad for the industry.

I too, agree with this overall sentiment.

The fact that these games launch with high populations means there is a huge market for gamers who want an MMORPG to play. The fact that the populations drop out after 1-3 months only means the game didn't deliver.

Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by shr4pnel

For me it's Rift.

I feel like I'm stealing from them because it's a complete game PvE-wise. It really is a Triple-A MMO that should be sub-based.

it was sub-based.

 

it didn't go well.

 

but I agree with Rift. I haven't payed anything but I'm working my way through the purple tier in the cash shop and raiding tier 2.

 

It's pretty awesome.

 

would I pay for it if it was subscription-based? If it had the same playerbase as it does now, sure. if it didn't, then no.

Rift was doing ok, it wasn't stellar but it was holding its own. It was Trion itself that got into trouble and needed to cash in on Rift.

Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by DamonVile

reading the replies I can really see why so many hate f2p. The best f2p game should be the one you like playing the most, not the one that offers the most free shit. Very few of the relies even mention if the game is good or not, it's just a list of all the stuff you can get for nothing. Sad that it's a lot of the same people complaining about why all mmos are the same.

I like swtor because it's raiding has been easy to get into and has a lot of progression to work though.

Tera had the best combat and I liked the art design of the entire game.

warframe was a stupid amount of hours killing shit with friends.

I haven't played any of them for free, but I probably wouldn't be playing any of them if they weren't free to start with.

I'd be interested in knowing why they had to be F2P to begin with in order to get you to play them?  I've of the exact opposite mind, if a game is F2P, especially from the start, I'm less likely to give it a try.

BTW, I played both SWTOR and TERA when they were not F2P, and didn't care for them after a few months. Can't see the fact that they are free now making them any more attractive and would not consider returning.

 

 

 

I played both at launch and didn't play long either. They just didn't seem like they were worth paying for at the time. 

Free to play for me is try before you buy. not in some half baked beta/alpha stage. Post launch where everything they're offering is on the table. If it isn't worth paying for then, I tend to not play them. I don't look for a game to be free so I can be a hobo player. I look for them so I know what I'm buying into if I/when do spend money.

Both Tera and SWTOR I played for a bit free when I came back to see what was going on. It was only after I kept playing every day fro about a week  that I decided I'd sub to them. If I had to just sub to see if it was good, I'd never bother.

I guess it's why I'm not as bitter as so many people around here. I'm not constantly dumping $60+ down on these games only to find out I didn't like them. Older mmos that have been out a few years have way more to offer than these new mmos do. More content, and the people playing them aren't tourists that chase every new shinny that comes alone. And they're not crawling all over everyone trying to be first. It's just a better group of people playing older mmos.

This was the approach I used to play SWTOR as well as a couple others that I ended up subscribing to after having played F2P for a bit. I agree with Daemon's opinion here.

If it's worth playing, it's worth paying. Although a game doesn't have to go F2P. But I need to know what the game is before I spend money on it. I'll be damned if I buy into any new MMORPGs sight unseen anymore. My policy after FFXIV was to never pre-order these games no matter what the hype and early indicators are. I thought for sure XIV was my new home. Even as players were starting to enter into Endgame. But as the game grew past it's initial launch and teh 1st patches started to reveal the direction the game was going, I realized it was not the game I thought it would be.

This has saved me...oh prbably a couple hundred by now as I would have bought into both WildStar and ESO. But I adhered to my new policy and I'm glad I did. It seems neither of those games are for me.

There is nothing wrong with subscribing to a service, If you want something provided on an extended basis, then it's expected that you shoudl pay monthly for it. This is the way our economy works.

It just so happens that most of what we classify as an MMORPG are simply not good enough to command that kind of business model. There are a few notable exceptions which prove the model works. Publishers use the excuse that the business model is too old. It's not, the games just suck.

I still recall the 40 page shit storm here back in late beta when a prominent beta tester up and quit. The responses were so typical.

"Who's he again?"

"He's just burned out"

"Why should I care?"

"Oh look, he got 6 MOs out of the game, I'll be happy with that" (I love that one)

and the list went on.

He posted exactly why he felt the game would fail and why he didn't like the direction ZOS was going with it and yet so many people posted their interpretations of why that tester was "really" quitting. But he was right. When a prominent leader (ES Fanboy) in the beta community, up and quits, there is a huge red flag there, and these red flags were seen waving in the wind from miles away, in spite of the many who buried their heads in the sand.

Pfft.

What a mess.

You might as well be asking me who the most respectable politician is. F2P has not ever and will not ever impress me.  I've tried so many of them and none has made me think it was a good experience.  Althought, it does serve a purpose. To allow me to determine if a game is worth paying for. I have tried a few F2P games where I later chose to subscribe. SWTOR being one that was good enough to make me sub up for a few months. But even then, I can't see myself playing without a sub. As far as the F2P stand-alone experience goes......NONE!

Originally posted by Scot
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by Acidon.Numen
Originally posted by Innkwell

I really wish people would stop making these BS posts about ESO and how it should go F2P/ B2P.....

 ITS OBVIOUS THAT THIS MEANS YOU ARE INTERESTED IN CHECKING IT OUT, stop trolling and just buy the game plus the .50$ a day  it costs to play and STFU already.

 

So sick of this generation ( and I'm only 29)  wanting everything for free, and when they get it they want all the access and rewards handed to them on a silver platter.

 I'm sorry to post in this thread specifically because I don't feel like the OP hates the game, but for f**ks sake this has got to be the one millionth post about how people want to check out ESO but don't want to pay for it.

 

"Guess what,  I want to live in your mansion and have someone wait on me all day and use the Aston Martin in the garage... Can I just try that out for a few months at one of your guys' house and then make my decision ... also is it cool if I sleep with your wife?"

 $.50 a day people ...

 FIFTY CENTS!!!!!!

This!  FFS This.

On a related note: http://www.zdnet.com/hell-no-we-wont-pay-how-technology-transformed-our-perception-of-value-7000030676/?s_cid=e539&ttag=e539&ftag=TRE17cfd61

Quote from article, "It is by definition, the personal, self-centered desire not to expend capital at all. Or to put a more modern take on it, rapid advances in technology have so lowered our perceptions of what things should cost, that ultimately many goods and services have become devalued far below what people are willing to pay for them.".

~

It doesn't really address one of the root causes....OK, so I only skimmed the article and mayu have missed it, but still.

Software companies have been exploiting, abusing, monetizing and generally, over promising and under delivering for years. Consumers are tired of it.

Have you ever actually read one of their ELUAs? They are convoluted and intentionally complex, but the gist of them is to basically tell the consumer, they have purchased access to something they don't own, The publisher still retains rights over the purchase. In other words, you spend money but have no rights.

 

Indeed, I too get fed up with those who think their life is going to be handed free to them, and these boards have more than their fare share of such people. Is it a gamer mentality? I think not, just those who think they deserve to be educated, given a job and have their entertainment for free. They treat life as if it were a F2P game where they put as little back in as possible.

To the last poster, there is nothing unusual about ELUA's, they are designed to fit the product. They are complex because online games and their relationship with players are complex.

If you buy a book do you own the words? No. This should help you understand the first concept, buying something does not imply complete ownership.

Effectively we are renting a P2P MMO, MMO's by their nature are nebulous products. If you rent a car and it turns out to be the wrong car you could expect money back. But if you rent something you end up not liking it would you expect you money back? Do you think you should be able to return a game to a store because you did not like it?

Companies have 'rights' too, and one of the things they need protection from is people who want everything for free. It is a two way street, not just a your way street.

Not the same. There is a difference in retaining rights over intellectual property vs. putting limits on me as to how I may and may not use my purchase on my equipment.

MMOs are moving more and more into the Single Player experience. I think this shift is part of that.

I'm not a fan of mini-games in general. When I saw the Wildstar video featuring a chest lock mini-game based on Electronic Simon, that was the proverbial "Final Straw" that made me decide to pass on the game.

Even in my single player RPGs, I hate them. When I play Skyrim, FO, or Oblivion,  I skip over lock picking. I'll either use the console to bypass the minigame, or as in oblivion, I use the console to give myself 1000 lockpicks and just spam the auto function. I don't give 2 shits that I am cheating in this aspect of the game. I despise these kinds of games within games. If I were a modder, I'd mod these mini-games right out and just make it a behind the scene mechanic based on my character's skills. For MMORPGs, I'd rather just use more traditional crafting mechanics.........Especially where I cannot opt to bypass such mini-games.

Eve is NOT a P2W game. EVE's RMT is different  in that CCP is more like a broker between players. So it's a 3 party transaction. In EVE' RMT, a bigger advantage goes to the player selling  game time, NOT the purchaser. So, if you have enough in-game resources to farm and sell PLEX, YOU have a bigger advantage, than the ones buying it from you.

 

Originally posted by Acidon.Numen
Originally posted by Innkwell

I really wish people would stop making these BS posts about ESO and how it should go F2P/ B2P.....

 ITS OBVIOUS THAT THIS MEANS YOU ARE INTERESTED IN CHECKING IT OUT, stop trolling and just buy the game plus the .50$ a day  it costs to play and STFU already.

 

So sick of this generation ( and I'm only 29)  wanting everything for free, and when they get it they want all the access and rewards handed to them on a silver platter.

 I'm sorry to post in this thread specifically because I don't feel like the OP hates the game, but for f**ks sake this has got to be the one millionth post about how people want to check out ESO but don't want to pay for it.

 

"Guess what,  I want to live in your mansion and have someone wait on me all day and use the Aston Martin in the garage... Can I just try that out for a few months at one of your guys' house and then make my decision ... also is it cool if I sleep with your wife?"

 $.50 a day people ...

 FIFTY CENTS!!!!!!

This!  FFS This.

On a related note: http://www.zdnet.com/hell-no-we-wont-pay-how-technology-transformed-our-perception-of-value-7000030676/?s_cid=e539&ttag=e539&ftag=TRE17cfd61

Quote from article, "It is by definition, the personal, self-centered desire not to expend capital at all. Or to put a more modern take on it, rapid advances in technology have so lowered our perceptions of what things should cost, that ultimately many goods and services have become devalued far below what people are willing to pay for them.".

~

It doesn't really address one of the root causes....OK, so I only skimmed the article and mayu have missed it, but still.

Software companies have been exploiting, abusing, monetizing and generally, over promising and under delivering for years. Consumers are tired of it.

Have you ever actually read one of their ELUAs? They are convoluted and intentionally complex, but the gist of them is to basically tell the consumer, they have purchased access to something they don't own, The publisher still retains rights over the purchase. In other words, you spend money but have no rights.

 

Originally posted by Burntvet

Doesn't matter, after the TOR boondoggle, EA won't be getting involved with another MMO for some time.

Nothing makes a company gun shy more than all the executives of a project (but one), getting fired.

 

So who cares.

 

(Also, at some point in the last couple years of SWG, SOE tried to put zombies in that game (and did ANOTHER vet trial), even tho it made no damn sense. Didn't work, and no one cared, because it was slapped together crap that didn't fit with the rest of the game.

(So now SOE is doing a whole game of that and expecting SWG vets to return? Yeah right....)

I just can't help but wonder.........

Was Smed intentionally pissing in SWG fan's Cheerios with his new "SWG" fan's game announcements or is he just THAT ignorant / arrogant?

Originally posted by Shaigh
Originally posted by GrayImpact

I feel like this wasn't given much thought or only mentioned big names.

 

What about Nexon, frogster, Ankama? They're all much worse then any of these.

I totally agree on nexon and gameforge, but I can't say I ever heard of ankama, 

Yeah, but just remember, this is one person's opinion based on their experience. I don't think it was really meant to be a research project. That's why it's in a discussion thread and not a published article. We can all weigh in with our own experiences whether they are in line with the OP's or not.

Lessons learned? IKR? It's not just from SWTOR either. Seems like these guys tripped over almost every stumbling block that has affected every single triple A in the last 10 years. There is simply no excuse. It's actually quite amazing to think about it. The only answer I can think of is the level of arrogance and/or ignorance these developers had was staggering. Remember their 1st "damage control" press release when they were talking about how they didn't expect the level of bots and spammers? (among many ridiculously ignorant statements) My jaw just dropped whenever I read that. I still can't fathom how they were the only ones in the world who didn't see that coming.

 

This game needs more than fixes. What it really needs is to be "FFXIV"ed.

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