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All Posts by GeezerGamer

All Posts by GeezerGamer

224 Pages 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 » Last
4461 posts found

Two things.

1. The RMT/PLEX/Multiple account factor. I played the Multiple accounts game in Anarchy Online. Not doing that one again. As soon as game mechanics start encouraging the average player to acquire more accounts than 1, It's not a game for me.

2. The game is truly designed for griefing.

Originally posted by Rydeson

     Personally..  I don't think it's an issue about progression or end game raiding..  Both can be fun, both can be a horrible grind.. I think it comes down simply to "FUN FACTOR"..  And I think one of the biggest keys to that is variety, which helps you to avoid boredom.. The games I enjoyed the most where the games that allowed me to do a vast number of things. It didn't matter if I was playing an end game raiding toon doing dailies, or leveling an alt..  If all you do from day to day is repeat the same crap, it is just natural for most to quit.. I would and have.. 

     I always imagined a game that has 6 or more starting points, 6+ paths to progress, and giving people the ability to jump around in the world experiencing everything within reason.. I thought GW2 was a good start into giving people progression options with multiple paths, but they too caved into "instancing" and that just isn't fun for most after time..  I always tried to find action in the open world zones in GW2, but it was rare to bump into people and most of the DE went unchecked..  Maybe because they offered lesser rewards then their instanced counterpart?   I don't know..

I'm not so sure it's all about fun factor. I think there needs to be more than fun factor alone. GW2 focused on that, and while it didn't entirely fail, I don't think it entirely succeeded either.

Players need a reason to log in. Something to motivate them, to drive them. It doesn't always have to be fun, but I think it does always have to lead to a reward or an accomplishment of some kind. There needs to be some work and effort to enhance the fun. Make it more valuable.

Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Bladestrom
It's called immersion and role play.

If going through the same wagon ride for 30 times is immersion and RP, then immersion and RP is boring to me.

then you're missing the point of immersion and RP so it's not something you can understand. 

If they have to involve repeating the same wagon ride for 30 times, gladly. May be you need to look at fun, rather than immersion. It is way over-rated, particularly if the game requires the player to participate in repeated, boring activities in the name of "realism".


I've repeated the wagon ride a few times. But I'll also admit to re-using the "Prisoner" save. It all depends on my mood at the time I decide to spawn off a new play-through....which I'll generally do on an instant whim, typically while I am already in one play-through and/or I discover a cool new I want to try.

I literally just bought DAO on Steam the other day, and rolled a Rogue.
Originally posted by AlBQuirky


Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Originally posted by AlBQuirky
After seeing yet another "MMOs are declining" post, I feel the need to say, "STOP IT!!"


The genre is NOT on the decline. The game quality may not be to your liking, or the direction the genre has gone may not please (it certainly displeases me), but NOT in any way, shape, or form is the genre in any kind of decline.

MORE players are playing MMOs than 14 years ago.
MORE games are available than 14 years ago.
MORE money is coming in every month than ever before.

If this indicates a "decline" to you, you had best go back to school. You missed a class or two on basic business.

What should we post about then if not our opinions?


If someone's post is ridiculous, it will show for that, let them post it.

If someone's post has merit, it will show for that too, let them post it.

Opinions are fine. If an opinion is based on a different criteria than what is being critiqued, then we have problems.


If someone can prove that the genre is decline, and NOT because they personally do not like it anymore (I am one of those players), then that ceases to be an opinion, since common facts disqualify it.

"MMOs suck." is an opinion.
"The MMO genre sucks." is an opinion.
"MMOs are declining." is a lie, no matter the opinion. The person can NOT back up that claim.

What can we post about?
- Good old days: Let's make developers so sick of seeing this, maybe they will create a game just to shut us up?

- New ideas

- Opinions on MMOs and why

- Reviews

- Desires for MMOs not yet released

- Thoughts on MMOs in general or specific titles

We don't need any more "Fortune Tellers" declaring the end of the genre when in FACT, it is thriving more than ever before. It matters NOT if players are "happy" or not. The FACT is the genre is making more money then ever before, even factoring for inflation.

You've seen my posts. I am in the same boat as many other posters here. I despise this genre that I once enjoyed spending time with. The difference is I do not close my eyes to the reality of the situation. The genre is thriving. *I* may not like 99% of the games, but that does not mean the genre is dieing. It means simply, I am no longer the target audience, even though I am willing to spend money, which 60-75% of their target audience have no desire to do.

Opinions are always welcome. Agree or disagree, they are opinions. When they cross over into lies, "The sky is plaid.", they are no longer opinions.

If someone want to say populations are in decline then they need facts, if they want to say game quality is in decline, then they don't.

Originally posted by Bladestrom
The original comment about eve was that it was successful and implemented a horizontal progression model.

But it has a large passive aspect to it.

Originally posted by iridescence
Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Isn't EVE both Horizontal and Vertical in terms of progression? Also, it's not really a great example. While the game is a successful game, I don't think it has the draw where anything like it will ever be big enough. EVE has plenty of active subscriptions, but how many active players does it have compared? When you remove multi-boxing and Multi-accounts from the equation, you are left with the number of people who play the game, That number won't be nearly as impressive as subscriptions.


Are you saying you think the progression system is a major factor in making EVE a niche game? I don't agree, but would be curious to hear your rationale if you think that.


Also just feel compelled to point out that there's nothing wrong with being a well designed game that knows and serves its niche and people paying for multiple accounts contribute the same amount of money to the game as more players playing for single accounts. :)



Not at all, I am saying EVE is just a different game from what this discussion is about.  As far as EVE being Niche...I'm not making any claims to say why. All I am saying there, is that there is a difference between the number of active players and the number of active accounts.

If I had to say what EVE is most successful at, it's in giving those who would play the game, the game they want. I know how redundant that sounds, but I really don't have much more to describe it other than those who like it, like it because. it delivers what it's supposed to. It doesn't try to appeal to those who won't like it.

Originally posted by AlBQuirky

After seeing yet another "MMOs are declining" post, I feel the need to say, "STOP IT!!"

The genre is NOT on the decline. The game quality may not be to your liking, or the direction the genre has gone may not please (it certainly displeases me), but NOT in any way, shape, or form is the genre in any kind of decline.

MORE players are playing MMOs than 14 years ago.
MORE games are available than 14 years ago.
MORE money is coming in every month than ever before.

If this indicates a "decline" to you, you had best go back to school. You missed a class or two on basic business.

What should we post about then if not our opinions?

If someone's post is ridiculous, it will show for that, let them post it.

If someone's post has merit, it will show for that too, let them post it.

Originally posted by Bladestrom
Eve, GW1,GW2 are all games I have played. You should maybe ask what vertical game has succeeded without the above issues, it's a fundementally broken model (increasing power creates imbalance)

Isn't EVE both Horizontal and Vertical in terms of progression? Also, it's not really a great example. While the game is a successful game, I don't think it has the draw where anything like it will ever be big enough. EVE has plenty of active subscriptions, but how many active players does it have compared? When you remove multi-boxing and Multi-accounts from the equation, you are left with the number of people who play the game, That number won't be nearly as impressive as subscriptions.

GW1 wasn't an MMORPG

GW2 has adopted a bit of vertical progression and players still complain there isn't enough to do at 80.

I'm taking the "I'll believe it when I see it" approach. But yeah, It looks like my kind of game.

Other fond memories were also back in the earlier days of wow. Milestones. They meant something. They were important. Not realy anymore. Now, it's just a matter of plowing through to cap and there is no "smelling of roses". My 1st character to cap was a Human Paladin.......we won't discuss that experience, however, once I learend WoW, my 2nd was much smoother. My Hunter. I planned this out from teh beginning. I was going to maintain all leveling evenly. I would not power level my character unless I had the rest of my skills to match. So I would force myself to break from leveling and go back and spend time skinning animals, Crafting my leathers, grinding mobs for linen to get my 1st aid up, Spending hours on a dock somewhere to keep fishing leveled so I could keep my cooking on par with my character. I remember my rule of thumb. Every character level needed 5 skill points. 

Back then, it was worth keeping them skilled like that. I made a difference and really did contribute to the leveling experience. But by the time MOP rolled around, crafting? That's something you do after you cap so you can get your DPS bonus. Which also meant, what you craft was also pre determined by your class and spec.

I'll agree that WoW hit with a perfect storm. Right time, right market, right game etc. But that isn't the basis of it's long run of success. That would have accounted for the game for a year or two maybe. But Blizzard hit one out of the park with TBC, 2 years later, And then again with Litch King in 2008. After that....meh.
Originally posted by bcbully

"Progression" has to be more than a number next to your character frame, that makes you stronger based on the amount of pointless 3 min task you do.


Levels in table top have not translated well in mmorpgs. Well they haven't aged well. When I think back, I thought about levels a lot when playing pen & paper rpgs, but those levels didn't mean much. They weren't all restricting.


It was the skills that I liked. Different ways of doing things, or just the ability to do things in general.  I think a lot of the newer not so successful mmorpgs have went away from this concept for the sake of less work balancing, debugging, creating, ect. It's much easier to focus on levels to keep people in game until they spend money (sub, cs, w/e) and repeatable content endgame content. This is why they are failing imo.



When I look back at the games I have enjoyed over the years, one that comes to the forefront is Anarchy Online. What was so amazing about AO was gearing up wasn't based on levels. Later on in it's life, FunCom added level restricted gear, but by and large, the stuff that made you stronger wasn't.

Implants for example. Oh how I loved tweaking those, and "laddering" them in. The restriction on implants was stat requirements. You wanted to put in an implant that increased your ability to use pistols? Well, that meant you needed to have a certain level of a base stat like STR, Stam or DEX to equip it. So the game became about temporarily buffing your base stats as high as you possibly could to ultimately equip a very powerful implant given your current level. It became both a science and an art. LOL. Those who were really good at it were able to produce some very expensive and at the same time very powerful low level twinks and they'd use them to solo content that is normally difficult for 6 man groups of higher levels but average gear builds.

Originally posted by Distopia

Maybe it's not and has never been a singular issue that causes declines?

Maybe those games aren't or never were actually doing poorly?

Maybe there's just a large amount of people who play MMO's just as they do any other genre, while those who play them as MMORPGs, are still just a small portion of the overall gaming community, hence numbers end up in the same range they have always been in for most games?

These maybes are the problem with trying to convince yourself there's one major issue with a certain game.




OK, I never meant to imply they were doing poorly. Just that they launched with higher populations that dropped off shortly after.

Maybe I should have acknowledged games like SWTOR having gotten them back, and that FFXIV really doesn't fit well in that list as it seems to have maintained retention.

I am just questioning if there is a real connection to the time it takes to level to cap and MMO retention rates. This of course assumes that the game's leveling content is strong enough for it.

I was just reading in the thread discussing how WildStar is struggling. I'm left thinking that it's a sharp contrast to the games that have come before it. in terms of End Game approach. Other games were criticized for not having enough End Game content at cap. It is what accounted for the high initial populations that very quickly dropped to a fraction of that within the 1st 2-3 months post release.

But then we see Wildstar enter with a strong focus on End Game content yet, the same result. A sharp drop off in game population after a short time.

I had always believed the issue was that these current games lacked enough viable options in activities for players to engage in. I still do, but now, I am also looking at a list of games, such as, WoW, EQ 1 and 2, FFXIV, SWTOR, Rift, and WildStar and I am asking, what's the difference here? Why did Vanilla WoW and EQ seem to hold on to their player base for years instead of months? My only answer now is the leveling experience. Back when it took the months for most to reach cap. Recent games have players capping in a week now. That was unheard of before.

Originally posted by Gravarg
Originally posted by toddze
Well I dont want "my" game to be a sandbox, I want a hardcore PVE MMO. Start it by using using FFXI as a template. Same mechanics, new world, new awesomeness!!


I never played 11, but one of the guys I used to work with did and he'd probably "QFT" this post.

We had a few discussions about the games we played, back then it was TBC WoW, but he'd bring up how he was always thinking about returning to 11.

Just out of curiosity, I wonder how Landmark as it is now, would have fared if that's what was being judged when the awards were given.
Originally posted by dreamscaper
Originally posted by Rusque
Originally posted by Ludwik
The PvE in the game is exceptional while you're character is still progressing.

Probably the best leveling experience I've had in any game.

But unlike other MMOs were the experience slowly deteriorates at end game, GW2 stops abruptly.

One day it will hit you like a bag of rocks. Then you'll never look at the game in a positive light again.

Much how I feel about GW2. Great during the journey, but max level is really meh.


Which is perfectly fine. There are tons of MMORPGs out there that are more than happy to throw you on a treadmill once you reach max level. GW2 focus on the journey there is a really refreshing change, and there's nothing wrong with that.


It's kinda funny, really. Back before launch, when was in love with GW2, I was one of the few people saying "you all need to put down the hype pipe and wait to see what the game is like before declaring it the second coming." Now, long after launch, most are constantly hating on it while I'm still enjoying the game.

Game's a decent MMO. It's got it's shortcomings for sure. But it's not a bad game overall. I rather enjoy playing it from time to time, in short spurts.

I've actually been tossing the idea around of creating another thief and leveling DP just level it again, that was fun. But endgame left a little to be desired.

Theme Park has gotten a bad rap because of bad games, not because of Theme Parks.

Not exactly sure of the top 10 in order, but I'd probably be surprised if  WoW, SWTOR and FFXIV weren't in the top 10.

All 3 are follow the same traditional Theme Park model. All three are very successful.

I think there is more than enough evidence to show that the WoW format still works.........Assuming the game is done right.


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