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All Posts by GeezerGamer

All Posts by GeezerGamer

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Originally posted by bcbully
Because a lot of people love to pay to win. You know the fotm rerollers? The exploiters, the guy that asks "what's the best build". They all love p2w.

I like to MinMax my builds. I like to be optimal. But, what does that have to do with P2W?

Originally posted by Zarf42
Originally posted by JC-Smith

...........

The cash shop has no impact on the economy, because the things you will be able to purchase from it are things that are outside of the economy. There's no in-game mechanism to unlock account perks. And there will be no mechanism to profit from the cash shop once it's implemented.

Pretty clear answer IMO.

That only spoke of perks. It didn't say anything about the boosters and armor shells. Unless I am somehow missing how Armor shells are outside the economy without being character bound.

Anyway, the question was answered. So for now, I am satisfied.

 

**************************************************************************

For what it's worth, I get that there are gold sellers in every game. I get there will be people buying game money against ELUA.

That's not important to me since Devs can't stop it. What is important is the stance Devs take on the matter.

Whenever I see "Can't beat em, join em" philosophy, count me out. I have yet to see that philosophy work out best for players.

Originally posted by JC-Smith
Originally posted by GeezerGamer

What my true concern will be, is if players can spend real money and convert it to credits either directly or laundered through items purchased from the cash shop.

Definitely not.

That's good to hear

Originally posted by Alumicard
Originally posted by Pie_Rat
Bah, another stinking cash shop game, I'll pass...Unless they add an option to subscribe that unlocks EVERYTHING.

Spend $15 a month on the shop and you have your sub. I have no clue how they will design the shop or price the items in it but you do get the whole game for free. Spend the $s on inventory/bank slots, some costume pattern or whatever there will be in the shop and you have what you need. Some might spend $30 or 100 but that is how a good f2p works. People who don't have much money can play the game and people with more money can play the game in golden armor. But both play the same game, do the same amount of dmg and both are happy in the end.

 

@tradable cash shop items. I hope they are tradable at least some of them. For example if they sell a special looking pattern/blueprint for an armor then I don't want to grind armor crafting just to be able to use the thing I bought. I'd want to give it to a crafter who has the nessesary skill lvl.

 

@JC patience lvl 60k

Then there should be limits on how much a person can buy from the shop and resell.

Originally posted by JC-Smith

What exactly is the question you think I've avoided. I answered every single one I could find.  If there's something specific that I missed then please quote it so I can know what your talking about.

Where are you getting that you can buy gold from? As I said, that is completely against everything we have said. It's not going to happen. Neither is selling of items of power, resources, etc in the first place. You can't trade account perks. Not sure how I can make that any more clear. That entire premise is completely off base.

I can't say for a fact that no item in the cash shop could ever be traded, because who knows what kind of items could be come up with later which were not outside of the lines and then someone could use that quote to say they were lied to. For example if we allowed guilds to purchase a custom logo for their armor and be able to distribute copies to his nation members (not an item of power, a cosmetic item), or something of the like. There could be things that we come up with and pitch to the community which are perfectly fine by everyone. I'm not going to say a definitive no to simple "will everything be no drop" question, which could turn out to be a loaded answer, purposefully or not. It's too vague of a question for that because there are too many possibilities.

What I can ensure you though is that we won't be allowing people to buy allowing people to buy items of power or the like in the first place. If you can't buy it then you can't trade it. Allowing people to trade cosmetics is also counter-productive. They'll all be no drop. The things sold in the cash shop will be convenience items, account perks and cosmetics. I think that should be crystal clear. But all I can do is tell you the truth, if you refuse to accept that and try to turn this into some conspiracy theory, that's your choice.

 

Items of power mean nothing in a game like this. They are inconsequential. Gear, in SWG, was easy enough to come by and disposable. Even if you sold top gear (stats) from the cash shop I 'd be ok with it if it were character / account bound.

What my true concern will be, is if players can spend real money and convert it to credits either directly or laundered through items purchased from the cash shop.

A one sentence answer.

Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by Asheram
 

Asshat reply really? The guy he was replying to  avoided the original question twice over now and he pointed it out what does that tell you? I paid for the "alpha" I dont regret my purchase but come on dont bother replying to a thread if you are not going to supply an answer to the thread but try to do damage control.

What does the back and forth here tell me? It tells me Jc is a smart Dev and doesn't run off at the mouth about things that could change, or aren't exactly set in stone. Avoiding questions isn't bad when the question is loaded like this one, and could have many scenarios play out down the road.

Damage control requires damage, there is none at this point, as what will be hasn't been yet...

 

As I ave said, this is NOT a Theme Park. This is a "Player Driven Economy" The impact of buying "gold" is this kind of game can be as bad as being P2W. I'd rather they sold gear with stats but have them bound to me over making items that are sellable. In games like this, gear is not the endgame progression. Building your place in the world is. So, whatever path you chose to follow in this game will ultimately revolve around how much money you earn. And if that can be bought with real money..........well, I won't say the term "P2W" but it certainly not a good thing.

 

If this is the truth of the game, then they need to step up and admit it. If they don't, there will be plenty of opportunity for damage control when the Cash Shop goes live. Side-Stepping a question means there is no good way to explain  "Yes, items are re-sellable." Unless, they can answer my question with a "yes, but here's why this won't have a negative impact on the player driven economy." But they can't because, it's going to.

 

Unless they can come in and explain how trading cash shop items in-game is going to work to everyone's advantage, this game is starting to look like another game for whales.

I like what I read about this game. It finally looks like a game that is designed to bring back an older MMORPG feel to the genre that's been missing for years. However, I am exceedingly skeptical of a F2P Cash Shop business model in a player driven economy based game. And Kyleran also brings up a valid concern. This is an Indie title with a small team on a tight budget. Are they in a position to effectively handle the exploiters and hackers when (not if) they show up in a F2P game?
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by delta9

Deny, deny, deny all you want, but I will guarantee you when the game launches you will find that you cannot play it without using the cash shop.  Citing League of Legends is pretty ridiculous, number one because it is a MOBA not a MMO.  Secondly LOL does sell a lot of things in the item shop because unless you grind a lot you still need to.  Thirdly LOL has millions of users playing, a hardcore MMO like this will be lucky to break 6 figures.   

Do you seriously think a indie developer would so openly state there will be no p2w items will go back on their word - the backlash and loss of players would be significant if they did.

Look at many MMORPG games with cash shops without p2w items in - they sell a bucket load of things from dyes to xp pots and such and The Repopulation will be no different - the devs have said as much and I believe you are just wrong here

This game needs no where near the return a AAA title does to run well and turn a profit - so long as they deliver what they promise there is a big base of gamers waiting for this game and they will pay for non p2w items in their droves

Again I am taking the developers word over your assumptions on this :)

 

There will be some here who believe the ability to create and run player cites and nations is a P2W scenario, unless there is some way to obtain these benefits without the need to purchase from the cash shop.

Even items such as extra bank/shared bank and auction slots could be considered P2W, if they impart significant advantage by having them and especially if the only way to obtain them is through cash store purchases.

Don't get me wrong, I believe people who support a game through subs and or cash shop purchases should have an advantage over the totally free player, to design it otherwise would make no sense.

 

I would wholeheartedly agree, but there the advantages gained should plateau after a certain point. Without some kind of DR in place, then it's just a game for whales. AA is a good example of where this went wrong. The biggest advantage should have been in subscribing. 

Originally posted by DMKano

It's no secret that in S. Korea online game accounts require a Korean Social Security Number to create a valid account - what if US started to do the same?

Would you continue playing by using your SSN or would you stop playing online games?

Obviously this is completely hypothetical so play along.

If you choose to play with your SSN - would it change how you played/behaved online?

Do yout think such change would have a positive or negative impact on online communities, or would it be the same?

 

Have you even thought about what you are asking? This isn't credit card info we are talking about anymore. This is your life now. If a company gets hacked and you feel your credit card info is compromised, you can have a new card re issued. Not so, with SSN. Your SSN gets out and that begins a nightmare of life altering proportions.

 

Originally posted by Alumicard
 

Im really bad at making up examples so my suggestion would be to look at the Fallen Earth shop. We don't need to discuss the quality of the game but after all the time even with a small community it manages to stay alive through their shop items which are purely cosmetic. The only thing that isnt are crafting tables which are OP sure but I never spent a single $ on the game and donated 100 of those to my guild.

People spend money to look special or to have a special looking pet or something.  You and I might not feel the need for it but stuff like that does work and people buy it. It's micropayments and they seem to work that good that I had to buy some freaking special currency in a club the other day to make me forget I spend real money on drinks. Crazy but I guess it works.

The whole point of my question doesn't revolve around whether or not someone can buy OP items, cosmetic items, crafting materials, or game services. What I want to know is, can this stuff be re-sold back to other players.

 

Games like this one.....and I am using SWG as my reference, are supposed to be based around a player driven world. They don't revolve around group instanced gear progression like other games. They revolve around establishing yourself within the world. And the vehicle to do that is money. Having the ability to transfer real money into a game that revolves around a player based political system and economy is just about as bad as selling OP gear on the shop. So, not selling P2W items in the cash shop does not make the game a non-P2W game.

 

The ultimate question is the same one I asked prior to ArcheAge releasing. When the dust settles, and the newness wears off and the player base begins to find their places in the game, will the ones on the top of the power-base be ones who worked the hardest in the game or will it be the ones who re traded cash shop items to become wealthy very early in game?

Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by delete5230

Anyway here we are, failure one after another. Games that are fun for two weeks then MOST EVERYONE IS GONE ! It seems even here on mmorpg.com the Forums are drying up.  Nothing left to discuss.  No mmos in the near future.

I guess it's time to play Dragon Age Inquisition. It's 18% downloaded now ! 

Why proclaim "I'm done"?

If some MMOs are good for 2 weeks, what is wrong with having fun for 2 weeks? That is more than CoD campaign which is good for a weekend.

Certainly play single player games, and use other form of entertainment. But i don't see a reason to stop looking at MMOs, if there are more. Never say never .. may be the next one will give 3 weeks of fun.

 

So developers and publishers get the hint!

Originally posted by DMKano
Originally posted by Mavolence
Originally posted by DMKano
Originally posted by Mavolence
Originally posted by TheGoblinKing
BD is based on labour points and F2P. Its going to be as fail as AA.

Are you serious!? BD also has Labor points? Unreal, screw that noise

To each their own - I am a fan of point based crafting systems - prevents a single player flooding the market with 1000 swords in 1 day.

Yes there are a billion other ways of limiting crafting without a point pool, but since the same point pool is tied into gathering as well - it as easy to keep track of and manage.

I love how AA did it - especially the crazy amount of XP crafting gives.

 

We've been over this a thousand times dont really see a need to go over it again and start another 100 page thread on labor points. Screw AA

We don't even know the details on "stamina system" in BD as it's not finalized yet.

The first iteration of cash shop for Black Desert is out in Korea - there are appearance items, rename and character change look items, some expand storage space options and boost XP potions.

Nothing on stamina pots yet.

As long as they don't make it "bound on account" - I have no issues with crafting pool potions 

If they do bound on account and only way to get it via spending real cash - no thanks

 

Non account or character bound cash shop items is almost guaranteed to be P2W or at least make the idea of a player economy an illusion. It's a huge problem.

Reselling of cash shop items creates completion with the publisher who has to figure out how to keep 1 player buying the items to resell, while being competitive enough so the next player will want to make a decision to buy from the 1st player or buy from the cash shop. The difference for the publisher is they get 2 sales instead of one. But at the same time, they have to make sure the 1st player also makes a bit of money in return. So it's profitable but cannot corner a market.

 

To say nothing of the flood of money coming in from Whales in what should be a player driven economy.

Originally posted by Pepeq

Hey, lets start a new trend of making up games that haven't even become an itch in someones pants yet and predict it's future, that way we can all wallow in our disappointment of life in general even longer than we do now.  We're clearly not maximizing or disappointment factor if we don't go looking for it under every rock we can turn over.

 

I for one don't care what anyone says about the game... I'm still going to play it.  It's going to be free to play after all.  There's no loss to try it.  Even if it only lasts 24 hours, it's still 24 hours... oh wait, that would be a positive.  Damn game, how dare they put out a free game and only give me 24 hours of content to consume!

 

There, now we're all happy.

Telling game developers what's not acceptable before they develop a game is not wallowing in disappointment. Otherwise we can all bury our heads in the sand and have nothing to say when a game releases and it's crap.

 

Originally posted by DMKano
Originally posted by Mavolence
Originally posted by TheGoblinKing
BD is based on labour points and F2P. Its going to be as fail as AA.

Are you serious!? BD also has Labor points? Unreal, screw that noise

To each their own - I am a fan of point based crafting systems - prevents a single player flooding the market with 1000 swords in 1 day.

Yes there are a billion other ways of limiting crafting without a point pool, but since the same point pool is tied into gathering as well - it as easy to keep track of and manage.

I love how AA did it - especially the crazy amount of XP crafting gives.

 

Unless it's monetized. 

Just the idea that it's good to be kept at a disadvantage unless you spend real cash is utterly absurd.

Originally posted by Shaigh
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by Joeyjojoshabadu
Riiight. Given the last two comments, it's clear the intellectual waters are too deep for me, so I'll get out of the pool now. I'll be over here teaching differential calculus to my cat. :-)

Great! This is hilarious. Next thing we'll see, are these self-proclaimed intellectuals who cannot get simple English Language definitions straight,  posting debates about Quantum Physics and String Theory?

Now I've seen everything.

Physics makes a lot more sense than the english language.

You need to learn a language before you can learn Physics, (or Calculus) but you do not need to know Physics (or Calculus) in order to learn a language.

Originally posted by Joeyjojoshabadu
Riiight. Given the last two comments, it's clear the intellectual waters are too deep for me, so I'll get out of the pool now. I'll be over here teaching differential calculus to my cat. :-)

Great! This is hilarious. Next thing we'll see, are these self-proclaimed intellectuals who cannot get simple English Language definitions straight,  posting debates about Quantum Physics and String Theory?

Now I've seen everything.

Originally posted by JC-Smith
Originally posted by d_20
Originally posted by GeezerGamer ... We also don’t plan on adding items of power... That having been said, we do have to generate revenue in some way.

This part right here. This gives me a reason to pause. I will wait for a couple of months after launch to see how this goes.

I suppose if you put anyones use of words under a microscrope you can always find a lot of reasons to scare yourself. We've made it clear from the beginning this will not be a pay to win game. Can't make it any more clearly than that.

Why did you take the time to respond to other posters in the thread, while ignoring the OP? P2W isn't the only problem caused by Cash Shops. Especially, in a game that is trying to present itself as a "sandbox" or at least a type of successor to SWG.

"P2W"  is NOT my question.

My question is simple. You want a world that has a high "player driven" factor. i.e. Crafting, Politics, economy etc. But you also want a Cash Shop. And look, I get it. This isn't a volunteer or a charity. You need to feed your kids too. 

But the mechanics of the game concern me when combined with the type of monetization you are planning.

Not having P2W items is one thing, but they still need to be desirable items or they won't sell. And to that end, if items that are both desirable by players and tradable in-game, means you are trying to create a game with a player driven economy and have RMT'd game currency at the same time.

I just don't see how that is going to work.

And to the poster above who cited EVE as an example of a sandbox with RMT, people always love to use PLEX as the "Poster Child" for successful RMT.

But they don't considera couple factors.

1. EVE had 5 years to mature an economy before PLEX was introduced into the game. Therefore, ISK's inherent vale had already been established. This means the dollar was always chasing ISK. Had PLEX launched with EVE, it would be the other way around and PLEX's value would have been based on the dollar. But it's not all good. EVE's economy is still bloated, the current active player base could never support the economy without PLEX / multiple accounts. 

2. PLEX is not a Publisher / Player transaction. It's a Player / Player transaction brokered by the publisher. (Not a Cash Shop). However, there absolutely, is an advantage to be gained in EVE through RMT. But it doesn't go to the player buying, it goes to the player selling it.

Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by chums54
Originally posted by bcbully
ESO. Over the next 2 years it will be ESO, WoW and everything else. I honestly believe ESO's NA and EU population will eclipse WoW's during this time frame. 

Lol. Another great post by BCbully.

There's actually no hard evidence that ESO's population is really doing well or poorly right now, Zenimax still hasn't released official subscription numbers, which generally would indicate they are under-performing at this point.

If it was really something they were proud of, they'd be shouting it from the rooftops.

 

That and the numbers that people are throwing around was marketing extrapolations (Not real data) from none other than Superdata.  Even then they used retail sales as their sample which assumes they will subscribe but no way to know for how long.

Not saying ESO is doing poorly, but I am saying this "1M" subscriber number that's been tossed around, is 100% false info.

From the FAQ:

Will The Repopulation Require a Subscription?

 

 

No. It will be a Free To Play title with income being generated from an in-game cash shop and optional one-time membership fees.

 

What Will Be In the Cash Shop? Will It Be Pay To Win?

 

 

We will not be Pay To Win. It is our feeling that free players are an important part of the user base and they add to the community. We don’t want those players to feel that they are at an unfair disadvantage just because they haven’t paid. While there may be things like skill gain increase boosts, we’re looking at lower increases than the 100%+ than has become standard in modern MMOs. We also don’t plan on adding items of power, such as potent armor, weapons or fittings. We do feel that players should earn whatever they get. That having been said, we do have to generate revenue in some way.

 

So what does that leave?

 

 

Account perks for one. Things like extra bank, inventory or character slots. Cosmetic items such as different armor or weapon looks. Non-combat oriented cosmetic or convenience items such as new hairstyles or furniture may also be available. We’ll explore and adjust as necessary.

 

 

The General FAQ does a good job of answering the basic questions and based on what I have read, this is fine. However, there is one question that has not been answered. This stuff in the Cash Shop, can it be re-sold in game to other players?

 

 

 

Originally posted by bcbully
ESO. Over the next 2 years it will be ESO, WoW and everything else. I honestly believe ESO's NA and EU population will eclipse WoW's during this time frame. 

I think you are underestimating Blizzard's ability to adapt

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