All Posts by KOrnfan4evr

Originally posted by heerobya

 

Darkfall is promising to have many features shared by these games. However, UO, SWG, and Oblivion were created by some of the top gaming developers on the planet, not by a 3rd party unknown Indy developer that has been working on the game for 7 years, and has been a "year from release" according to the very DF fans who patrol these forums for over 3 years.

 

You can't be involved in epic sieges and PvP warfare and naval battles etc. 100% of the time you are playing the game. It wasn't true in UO, it wasn't true in SWG, and it's not going to be true in Darkfall. You are going to spend the majority of your time grinding to make money, improve your skills etc. so that when the opportunity for epic, player created fun happens, you'll be "ready."

 

Why don't games like Halo 3 have 300+ person matches? Counterstrike? That's very "modern" technology, Halo 3 is a little over a month old! Have you seen what happens in ANY online game when you have 300+ people in the same area? Even with the best, most highly optimized code and game engine (which a company like Blizzard is capable of creating) it just doesn't work for 99% of the players. Only the 1% of people with super-jacked up rigs and blazing fast direct pipe connections can play with minimal lag.

 

And on the subject of PvP. Yes, I love fair, balanced PvP. PvP where I win because I am more skilled then the other player. I play FPS games for this, because NO MMO, especially not old school UO ever really has gotten it right.

Throw in full player looting? You just wrecked the game for me. Unless gear means just about absolutely nothing like it did in old UO, then full looting is a terrible idea. But if gear has no meaning, why make it lootable? It's just an added annoyance invented by people who think it's "hardcore."

It doesnt mtater if a company has a name for themselves.  I mean cmon look at EA one of the "top companies" and they throw out crappy games all the time.  its just that they make so many of htem they're making a good profit.  SWG although was fun, was a crappy game and that was how long in development?  By what company?  It wasnt even fully completed and still has problems (even with NGE,  PRE-cu was the best).   At least Adventurine is trying to make the game with quality instead of just trying to make a quick buck (And hey will go into self publication if necessary).

And actually they even stated they want to run Server events where you have to fight Demi-gods complete "epic" quests or any of that sort of stuff (yes i said DEMI-GODS).  And i mean even the "grind" will be its own siege. You go out side you'll see a goblin camp, you leave that alone, it will litteraly upgrade to a stronger camp, the longer you leave it alone the higher level it will become, once they become powerful enough they will litteraly raid the nearest town.  Also its dynamic spawn, so you wont laways have that same little camp to continuously farm.  And its not only players that are going to be in the world, like i just said there will be NPC's.  So you can always have a naval battle whether its with NPC pirates or NPC sea monsters.  Its all there.  And so what if the dev's arent always behind the server creating thesse epic instances 100% of the time, I dont think i'd constantly want to fight in those massive battles, sometimes soloing....or get this.....EXPLORING the world is fun enough.  (their world is going to be massive, mainly hand created across many square miles, dont remember hte exact number they projected).

As for networking.  You actually can do that pretty well, most game servers (halo, cs strike) are actaully shared.  SO you can have liek 20 CS game servers on 1 server platform.  But with most mmo's its just 1 server to host alot of people.  SO you have more resources goign to just that one server, and of course their going to only allow X amount of players per server, bringing in more that is needed (with the lack of hitboxes it requires less server resources, shot to the foot is the same as a shot to the face, balance purposes as well as network) so instead of saying Player 1 part 366 its just player 1 hits player 2 with X.  And hell maybe htey have something else up there sleeve that their just not lettin out.   But what would you think if they did have 10k people per server fighting in 300+ battles with little lag.  Would you even care?

And btw, blizzard used that engine.   Molded it off of games previouse to it.  They didnt make anything new, ever wonder why WoW and DAOC were so similar?  Not to mention you dont need a "jacked up rig" they're creating the game that you can play with super duper upper graphics, or just menial.  They're trying to make it so someone that could run CS 1.6 can run Darkfall decently well. 

Do you think they were just drawing leaves on a tree for 3+ years?  Most of their programming has been around balance.  With 300 skills and 200 spells (yes just found this http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/setView/overview/gameId/4        old news but still reference) why would you rush that.

well get this.  Your the highest level in your class (swordsmen or whatever) because you just bought it off of ebay.  You have all the "Uber gear" that came with the accoutn.  you come across someone that looks as if they are about medium "level" to you.  You come infor an attack, they dont have all the shiny armor or weapons taht you have, but they kick the shit out of you...know why?    WEAPONS AND ARMOR ARE ONLY 25% OF WHAT GIVES YOUR STRENGHT.  75% of the game is player skills (knowing what to use, when to use it how to use whether its skills, items or movement)

Im not sure why your playing WoW if what your looking for is actaul player control instead of items, cause items are what give you the power in WoW (this is usually when people bringin the world of roguecraft....what a joke).

In any case Just because these guys are not Blizzard (not to mention not using an overused mechanic) doesnt mean they cannot make something unique, as welll as working.  

Im sure if a company says they can handle 300+ people battles as well as 10k people per server, they have statistics to back it up or else thats called fraudulent claims, and in some countries can be sued for that.  

Either way when this game comes out, its going to be something unique and big and osmething that will revolutionize MMO's to date.  im nto really into the cookie cutter mmo's, nor the mmo's where you have to grind then pvp.  I'd rather grind WITH PVP (Yes your skills will increase whether its monster or player).  But like i said its your choice to disagree with me, all im trying to do is convince (which is perfectly legitamate).  If the game doesnt come out anywhere near as close as they say (which has happened in the past with many other games, including swg) then I was wrong.  Otherwise these guys seem pretty lcose to their word, and the articles that are written about hands on with the game tend to say that this game has included everything they stated it would have....and then some. 

Originally posted by heerobya

 

Originally posted by KOrnfan4evr

Well obviously what is there to tanking.  You sit there, and take hits.  Thats the main purpose of a tank.  YOu get hit, you get healed you use stun moves and BAM your a tank!  The fact of hte matter is, WoW is just a game that took an idea from someone else *Cough* Mythic*cough* but used their name in order to sell massive amounts o games.  

Yes i commend blizzard for that and i think its great for them and i hope they use it to make actaul good games, like they used to (starcraft II is a good investment). 

Whether its twitch combat, semi twitch (WoW, Asheron's call) or point and click, it doesnt matter what style of combat there is, it just matters what the game revolves around. 

So really Darfakll is a  MMOFPRPG (Massive multiplayer online first person role playing game |  Technicaly third person but who cares).  You dont like the idea (anyone in general)?  So what.  Thats what it is, you can level up your character, do quests, grief people or hell become a merchant, leader anything.  If thats not roleplaying then I gues the majority of roleplaying is being set to do certain things at certain times that you have to wait till Lvl XX in order to go to certain places THAT YOU CANNOT EVEN EXPLORE because they are holding you back because of a level.

Im sorry to break this to you but Darkfall is created around PVP.  But thats not the only thing to do, if you thought that, your dead wrong.  The amount of things put into darkfall that you are able to do will make WoW players be like "Wow, you mean i couldve made a character that couldve done all that instead of making 16 characters spending $xxx to switch server and then having to do each of these things on a separate character and then wasting my time killing this same instanced boss to get X amount of items that were inadequate in a month just to find out I couldve done more than this is such a smaller amount of time w/o reaching the tip of the iceburge?!? *deep breath* ""

 

I mean if you like WoW, thats cool.  Thats super, but I and most of the people that speak against it dont, and its for reasons that I kinda summed up in the last paragraph (others have more and heir free to speak it.  I mean i know darkfall wont take every little player form WoW.  But the fact is that its going to be a more solid game that has alot more to offer, im tired of the linear game i want a sandbox (Pre-cu swg, asheron's call, planetside) that wont inhibit my wants to go anywhere i please (with only the danger of huge monsters to inhibit my movement) and become anything i want w/o having to make a different character every time i want to make or become something else.

Your tank will do nothing more than cause FF and be dropped in a matter of seconds because really in darkfall its not about the tanking, its about the damage and healing capabilities, the dev's said it best "Your going to die in darkfall, alot"

So have fun getting you're uber armor in WoW an di really do wish you the best of luck, but you do decide to check out darkfall we'll welcome you with Arms unsheathed.

 

Tanking is a lot more then that, but you'd have to tank to know it. In WoW, tanking is all about position, timing, and threat/aggro management. These make up the 50% of playing WoW that is player skill. You won't understand how much deeper it is then "spam this button" if you haven't done it. The other 50% of WoW playing at end-game is Talent spec and gear. You are right on that, but can't seem to get past  the idea that it is also so much more due to your bias.

I love skill system based games, which I define as you pick your characters skills, and advanced those skills by using them (i.e. Oblivion, old UO) I like freedom and I like choice. I want to build my character as I want to build them, and I want to have the freedom to choose what role I play.

I hate grinding on mobs / missions/ trade skills mindlessly for hours and hours and hours. Sandbox games have both. They have the freedom to do what you want to do, to create your own content, but they also have NO content other then grinding. It may be hard to understand, but look at old UO and pre-NGE SWG. You can't deny the facts.

FPS combat has no place in a MMO due to the technological limitations of our current networks and hardware. Look at planetside, WW2 online, etc. How popular are those?

Do you really think an unknown Indy developer is going to magically figure out a way to make FPS combat work on a large, MMO scale when dozens of well funded, proven, highly successful and talented developers haven't?

*edit*

Oh, and I don't play WoW anymore. You arguments make you sound ignorant and combative. I, at least, am trying to be civil, intelligent, and intellectual. Learn from Vajuras, he knows how to argue!

You see the thing that makes me laugh (I dont blame you cause it sbetter to teach than flame and just keep people from wanting to steer clear of that which they feel is right). Agro management is kind of a "Need to know" thing of anything including tanking, so thats kind of not needed to be stated (Yet its good for the folks that dont really know any better so im neutral on it).

But you say " love skill system based games, which I define as you pick your characters skills, and advanced those skills by using them (i.e. Oblivion, old UO) I like freedom and I like choice. I want to build my character as I want to build them, and I want to have the freedom to choose what role I play.

I hate grinding on mobs / missions/ trade skills mindlessly for hours and hours and hours. Sandbox games have both. They have the freedom to do what you want to do, to create your own content, but they also have NO content other then grinding. It may be hard to understand, but look at old UO and pre-NGE SWG. You can't deny the facts."

Your basicaly saying you want an old school UO with Oblivion aspects.....DARKFALL IS IT.  Its like oblivion (excep tits third person in melee combat) and their main influence is UO.  

Your freedom of choice, theres over like 200 skills (500 skills+Spells yes but i dont know the exact number of JUST SKILLS but theres defintaely more than WoW lawl) To choose from.  You dont choose which ones you want persay.  You say which ones you want.  You say "I want to shovel in a farm all day"  you pick up a shovel and do it.  You say "I want to learn how to block better" you pick up a shield and do it.   "i want to learn hwo to bake pies (Asheron's call DTers know what im talkin about )  you makea  mofkin pie!!

Now your networking complications are basicaly a thing of the past.  Especially now with quad cores coming out theres so much more that can be done.  Once we have all the fiber optics in place and even got ourselves quantum transisters with the flux capaciters ready, it'll be like story telling!   (Yes im actaully just joking around with thequantam flux jazz).  

But really they even stated that performance is their main thing, they're choosing FPS over looks when it comes to 300+ people battles (which there will be when you have a n alliance benging at your castle walls looking to destroy it...whcih is 100% true).  They stated that they are doing whatever it takes to have maximum performance, including but not limited to, network.  They originaly even left out shield blocking and had it automatic (asheron's call and almost every mmo before hand, excluding DandD) because of network problems, bu tthey recently added it in to be manual.  

If you want a tanker with skill you might like darkfall, even though i used the whoel die alot in darkfall quote, you could probably see that it would be so much more fun/strategical since you have very many things you have to watch out for, including Friendly Fire.  But get this, if someone tries to heal their teamate that your attacking, if they accidentaly aim at you, they heal you.  Yes sure it could be done visa versa.

Really it sounds like your basicaly explaining that you want a game like darkfall, but fo rsome reason all you think it is is, join a server get some headshots (which do not exist in darkfall FOR BALANCE REASONS) and then log off.  When infact its not, its very much so an rpg but it takes more thinking, you have to know what to agro, where to move, where to attack, what to attack with.  Now i dont know if theres multi strike positions i wont lie (Like you stated in dark messiah, which was a very awesome game just needed more support).

But darkfall isnt for everyone, its going to be ahardcore universe that even I might not even like when is tart getting pwned.  But with full loot on death, being able to steal someones horse but jumping on its back when they get off or hell even just chopping someones head off and using it as a trophy, you can always remember.  When you respawn, and you notice how cheap weapons and armor will be for hte most part, and you see that guy walking towards you.  You know that you'd rather reak your vengeance then just let him walk away. 

Oh ya anothe rthing, hasnt there been a time when you were annoyed by some kid that keeps messing around on WoW, wouldnt you rather just pwn the hell out of him than just listen to him rag on about go dknows what especially when he KEEPS DECLINING THE DUEL INVITATION.

I gave WoW a shot and i didnt like it.  Really all im asking for you to do is accept that darkfall isnt just some random shooter that all you have to do is get a few frags and you r l33t, but much mor ehtan that.  This is the last bastion of good gaming that most us PVPrz have been looking forward to since Old school AC DT (w00t w00t) or even UO. 

Originally posted by heerobya

 

Originally posted by KOrnfan4evr

Originally posted by heerobya

 

Originally posted by ryotian

 

Originally posted by heerobya

 

Originally posted by vajuras

people really need to stop worrying about "being the same" as everyone else. In world of warcraft I want to know how a Protection spec Warrior is any different from the other 1 million+ Protection spec Warriors

What should matter is MY playstyle in which will be evident through twitch based gameplay. Any abilities my character has will merely be a TOOL, it won't define ME. why should it freaking matter if Player A uses a Hammer and Player B uses a Bow? What should matter is how I utilize these skills

This is something FPS gamers have understood for years. Just give us basic equipment and we will show you what makes us "unique"

 

 

World of Warcraft - From the perspective of a former Protection Warrior.

Talent build - 25% Having the exact same talent build is only part of it. No "good tank" is anything but protection spec (in terms of warriors)

Gear - 25% WoW is an Everquest clone, gear matters. If I have 10,000 HP instead of 6,000 HP, I have more survivability and thus am a better tank.

Skill - 50% I'm talking about player skill. If you don't think player skill matters in WoW, you are plain wrong. You've never had a "good" tank and then pug'd with a "bad" tank. The difference is severe.

And yes, the 50% of skill is the most important of the three above. You can have the best talent build and gear and be a OK tank, but to be "good" you have to have skill. Fact.

Oh yeah, Vajuras my friend, I'm sorry to do this, but you are

*Edit* Now, you won't be able to get the best gear unless you have skill, you won't have skill unless you can make a good talent build, and you won't know how to make a good talent build unless you understand what gear you need (for tanking, mitigation vs. avoidance, etc)

 

I'm sorry but I think WoW is 99% gear and 1% player skill

 

I'm sorry but you are wrong. If you are right, and really is 99% gear and 1% skill, then I could respec my old Protection Warrior to Arms or Fury, throw on my best tanking gear, and let YOU control my toon, and you'd be able to tank a 5-man heroic instance without a single death in your party or be the Main Tank in a 25 person raid.

Very, very doubtful.

If player skill means being able to press 1, 2, 3, 4 over and over and being in a spot where someone can heal you.  Then you've got it sir.

WoW makes it so you odn tuse player skill, your reactions and what not will matter int hat game.  In wow its how many things you can target in x amount of minutes.  Sorry but WoW barely breaks away from the point and click games.

*EDIT*

And this is my favorite thing about darkfall, it will have everything that any other game included but then maximize its potential and then allow combat to actaully be just what its supposed to be.  Quick, brutal and actaully means something (Other than a gd number on a pinup board

 

You've obviously never tanked anything. If I just sat and spammed 1,2,3,4 I wouldn't be a good tank.

FPS combat is for FPS games.

A RPG is a game where you play a role, by it's basic definition.

So is Darkfall a MMO-RPG or a MMO-FPS?

It has elements of both. Don't get me wrong, I like FPS games and the fact that I win based off of my skill as a player. But I play real FPS games like Halo for that.

I play RPG games for character advancement, stat building, gearing up my toon etc.

I mean if you like WoW, thats cool.  Thats super, but I and most of the people that speak against it dont, and its for reasons that I kinda summed up in the last paragraph (others have more and heir free to speak it.  I mean i know darkfall wont take every little player form WoW.  But the fact is that its going to be a more solid game that has alot more to offer, im tired of the linear game i want a sandbox (Pre-cu swg, asheron's call, planetside) that wont inhibit my wants to go anywhere i please (with only the danger of huge monsters to inhibit my movement) and become anything i want w/o having to make a different character every time i want to make or become something else.

Your tank will do nothing more than cause FF and be dropped in a matter of seconds because really in darkfall its not about the tanking, its about the damage and healing capabilities, the dev's said it best "Your going to die in darkfall, alot"

So have fun getting you're uber armor in WoW an di really do wish you the best of luck, but you do decide to check out darkfall we'll welcome you with Arms unsheathed.

Originally posted by Nazaros

 

Originally posted by KOrnfan4evr

Ok im interested in the concept and ideas.  Is there an official website that we can create a forum account yet?  If not, can you PM me when that comes around?

*EDIT*

What kind of downer will we see to death (PVE and or PVP.   Loss of items, degradation of skills for xx amount min/sec, full loot, or having to walk very far)?

We currently only have our own internal forum for those working on the production, but i'll be more then glad to give you my Msn meanwhile to discuss what i can with you.

 

P.S. In mars 2008, the card/board game demo (which will also become a mini-game inside of the MMO) will be released on a PC version for testing purposes. We will have a forum then, and although it will not be about 5th Dimension MMO, the 5th Dimension card game is still the intro to the second phase. (the MMO) The third one being a theme park here in montreal where people will live those adventures "lives". This will be a long sequel to follow and it starts with the card board, so feel free to hang around and keep in touch with the development of all our product. They are all 5th Dimension related and connected to one another.

About the downer for death, it really depends in which zones you're fighting. Like the life realm is ultra carebearish, and won't have any penalty for death beside a short corpse run. The death realm is completely the opposite of that, and if you can't find someone to ressurect you before your body decay, (about 2 minutes) it's a perma death for your character. Other realm like chaos will offer you to loot the corpse of dead opponent, while the huge earth realm will emphasis on long ass corpse run and exploration all togheter. The life and water realm don't have any PvP inside of them, but there can be contested zone they will want to fight for. Basically, it goes like this: Each realm (8) have a sacred ground that produces their elemental runes. Runes are used for many purposes when you mix them together, from casting spells to crafting re-agent and much more. So there is a perpetual war to try to get your hand on those ressources because none of them can do much alone. (They need to be mixt to get the real powerful stuff) You cannot conquer a sacred ground, only plunder it's ressources. All the 11 other pieces of land of each realm are contested area though and if the death realm for example wins over a territory own by the life realm, this territory now becomes death property and perma death rules applies on it. There are game mechanics that makes it very hard for a single realm to conquer all of the contested area: Such as the order realm who is only fighting against the most powerful realm to restore balance.

When you first join 5th dimension, you're nothing more then an indigenous. You don't belong to any realms, as they are looking at you as a servant and nothing more. In time, you will decide which realm you want to accomplish deeds for, and earn different powers giving to you for helping them. You will also try to explore the whole map in order to get the whole Genesis of the 5th Dimension by capturing the DNA of every mobs in the game. You and your guild will use those ressources to build yourself up and expand your indigenous tribe the best you can. You will have the choice to expand it into one or the 8 different realms, all with a separate rule set. Like building a house in the life zone is safe, but building it into chaos or fire will expose it to attack then you're not there to defend it. Every possible form of PvE and PvP will be offered, so you don't feel like you have to change the game you're playing if you feel like a different rush.

Nice it almost reminds me of Shattered Galaxies witht he land control (or planetside if you will) but with a few extra kicks.  I'll definately KIT

Originally posted by heerobya

 

Originally posted by ryotian

 

Originally posted by heerobya

 

Originally posted by vajuras

people really need to stop worrying about "being the same" as everyone else. In world of warcraft I want to know how a Protection spec Warrior is any different from the other 1 million+ Protection spec Warriors

What should matter is MY playstyle in which will be evident through twitch based gameplay. Any abilities my character has will merely be a TOOL, it won't define ME. why should it freaking matter if Player A uses a Hammer and Player B uses a Bow? What should matter is how I utilize these skills

This is something FPS gamers have understood for years. Just give us basic equipment and we will show you what makes us "unique"

 

 

World of Warcraft - From the perspective of a former Protection Warrior.

Talent build - 25% Having the exact same talent build is only part of it. No "good tank" is anything but protection spec (in terms of warriors)

Gear - 25% WoW is an Everquest clone, gear matters. If I have 10,000 HP instead of 6,000 HP, I have more survivability and thus am a better tank.

Skill - 50% I'm talking about player skill. If you don't think player skill matters in WoW, you are plain wrong. You've never had a "good" tank and then pug'd with a "bad" tank. The difference is severe.

And yes, the 50% of skill is the most important of the three above. You can have the best talent build and gear and be a OK tank, but to be "good" you have to have skill. Fact.

Oh yeah, Vajuras my friend, I'm sorry to do this, but you are

*Edit* Now, you won't be able to get the best gear unless you have skill, you won't have skill unless you can make a good talent build, and you won't know how to make a good talent build unless you understand what gear you need (for tanking, mitigation vs. avoidance, etc)

 

I'm sorry but I think WoW is 99% gear and 1% player skill

 

I'm sorry but you are wrong. If you are right, and really is 99% gear and 1% skill, then I could respec my old Protection Warrior to Arms or Fury, throw on my best tanking gear, and let YOU control my toon, and you'd be able to tank a 5-man heroic instance without a single death in your party or be the Main Tank in a 25 person raid.

Very, very doubtful.

If player skill means being able to press 1, 2, 3, 4 over and over and being in a spot where someone can heal you.  Then you've got it sir.

WoW makes it so you odn tuse player skill, your reactions and what not will matter int hat game.  In wow its how many things you can target in x amount of minutes.  Sorry but WoW barely breaks away from the point and click games.

*EDIT*

And this is my favorite thing about darkfall, it will have everything that any other game included but then maximize its potential and then allow combat to actaully be just what its supposed to be.  Quick, brutal and actaully means something (Other than a gd number on a pinup board

Ok im interested in the concept and ideas.  Is there an official website that we can create a forum account yet?  If not, can you PM me when that comes around?

*EDIT*

What kind of downer will we see to death (PVE and or PVP.   Loss of items, degradation of skills for xx amount min/sec, full loot, or having to walk very far)?

forgive me for not reading all 5 pages.  But i read in the first page that its not automatic fighting, not rts or fps.  Im curious, since you stated that there will be pvp, How much pvp will there be?  If your a hardcore pvper that dies alot more than stated in the example from page 1 and even attacked a whole lot more would you exceed the 15 dollar a month charge?  How much will items affect the outcome of both pve and pvp?  Will you have twitch combat (FPS style), semi-twitch combat (DAOC/wow/Asheron's call) or automated (shadowbane, eqetcetc.  I believe you stated there wouldnt be any i just want to help remember it).

But it is a very interesting idea I cant say i love it, but i cant say i hate it.  The more info the more it'll help.  Now im off to lay down to get rid of this sickness lol. 

Dell can be decent for the ones that dont feel like building their own.  But the amount of warranties and having to buy from them is kinda  a downer for me.  From what I hear once you buy a dell you have to buy their parts in order to upgrade or else it won tbe compatible.  I havent bought myself one in order to find out, nor do i want to.

All I know is the amount of problems that the lack of caring that can come out of retail computers just bothers me.  From cheap products to not being able to have enough room, or better yet a computer made to not allow any upgrades (either software, firmware or the actaul case blocking).  I just rather be able to hand select the products I get to make sure that I get what i ask for insteeadof wanting an awesome computer from a retailer and finding outt he 2000 dollar rig i got is using a 2 year old mobo thats basicaly downing the rest of the hardware.

Hey guys if it was free it would be grand!  I mean look at shadowbane thats a pre....oh wait n/m

Im willing to pay 30 dollars a month for darkfall if they really do hold up to everything they say (For one i know it wouldnt be 30 a month and second I really do have high high hopes for this game) they have made is in.

Free server would be good if it was a Transfer your character to a gladiater stadium wher eyou and people from other servers could fight ffa style, this would basicaly bea  shoot em up gallery where you go for rank, no spending points, money or items are aquired other than your basic needs, its just for a shoot em up fest.  

Building your own computer is cheap and gets you the parts you want.  BUt of course theres the hassle of getting the OS all theparts and of course making them all work (if their not doa or non-compatible).

Alien ware has good solid computers, but jack up the prices cause it has their name on them.  Worth it if you got hte $$$$ to waste.

Gateway, eh basicaly like dell except different packaging.  All the top retail have allt he same jargin.  My recommendation (If your not going intel) would be to wait for the quad core processors from AMD to come out, cause even then prices for cpu's will go down.  And make sure to do research (Newegg.com is good for reviews) on parts and what not so if you end up customizing your ordered pc you'll knwo what to ask for.

Originally posted by ryotian

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