I also quit EQ2 for WOW pretty early in vanilla.  I started to get a little jaded with WOW right around the introduction of LFD in wrath.  I know everyone loves it, but it just wasn't for me.  I continued to play until I killed Arthas, and then I quit.  I had been following this story since I was a child, I was going to see it through to the end and kill Arthas come high or hell water. 

I took a nice long break from all MMOs after that.  I tried to check it out again during Cata and MoP, but the game has passed me by.  It's just not my thing now, but I would love to find a game with the feel of Vanilla, BC and the first half of Wrath.  I played Rift for a bit, it's a good game, but doesn't keep my attention for long periods of time.  The one game that I have been playing for over a year now is EQ1 on the Fippy Darkpaw progression server.  That game is where I cut my MMO teeth 14 years ago, and I guess I just wanted to to bring things around full circle.  When that server opened up and I was leveling up in classic EQ with lots of other people everywhere, and then getting the bat phone calls at 3 am to go kill contested raid pops... there's just nothing like it for me.  Graphics be damned.  Wow and it's first two expansions are a very close second. 

Now that Fippy is rapidly moving on, I'm hoping around from game to game.  I still play EQ1 from time to time.  I dabble with Neverwinter because I'm a DnD fan.  Waiting on EQnext news and maybe wildstar. 

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Robokapp

an MMO can not exist without its elite ruling class. 

eventually you'll have to realise this. 

if you can't keep your diehards what hope do you have to keep anyone else ?

The reverse is better policy (and Blizzard's methodology.)

You create a game where the perceived complexity is low, so new players who try your game stay with it, but where the actual depth is high, so veterans stay longer. Blizzard over time has reduced perceived complexity while trying to maintain game depth, and while they haven't been flawless with their implementation over the years, this pursuit is certainly one of the key reasons their game has lasted so much longer than others.

 

I agree, and I think Trion worlds also tries to do this with Rift.  I also disagree with the premise that Rift is a lot more "grindy" than WOW and that's probably why I have them so close.  I also think that both Rift and WOW have excellent end game raids.  

I think that both Blizzard and Trion worlds, and a lot of other companies, tend to look at where the majority of their playerbase is and keep fresh content updated for them.  There's always the guilds that kill everything first and they sit and wait a little while while the majority of the player base  catches up and they usually don't mind. This is just part of the role of being on top.  Keep the largest amount of people playing and paying for as long as possible.  It just makes sense that they would do this. 

What you just typed is a review of storm legion.  You really didn't touch on your view of the change in business model at all whatsoever.  I also completely disagree with your review of storm legion. 

There isn't much of a grind here at all.  It doesn't take much time to get to max level compared to the games that us "first MMO gamers" played.  By the way, some of us do still play MMOs, and Rift is a good game, that offers us a modicum of the experience that we used to have.  What Trion Worlds did is make an expansion that has a ton of content, and a leveling pace that allows you to experience most of that content on your way to max level.  Seriously, it took me maybe a month, that's it.  If you are looking for a faster leveling pace, I would suggest that you check out one of the hundreds of options out there that offer very fast leveling. 

The additions of housing and the reworking of the macro system were pretty well received.  To say that people thought that macros were cheating because they didn't understand what a macro is .. is pretty short sighted.  There was a time in Rift when my rotation consisted of two buttons, AOE and single target.  That's it.  Two buttons to play a game.  It made combat stale.  To say that change is in any way reminiscent of the SWG NGE is laughable at best.

It sounds to me like you don't like Rift.  That's fine, there's lots of other games to choose from, that sound like they would fit your needs like a glove.  If you want to express your dislike for Rift in a public forum, in review form, that's fine too, that's what places like this are here for.  When you use a change in business model as an excuse to pour on your dislike for an expansion, it just comes across as silly to me. 

Originally posted by nethervoid

 BUILD US A MAN'S GAME!

http://www.mmorpg.com/gameon.cfm/cast/40

And we'll call it irony. 

Just thought it was funny, not trying to give you too hard of a time.

Originally posted by Torgrim

Well the thread title explains it pretty good i think.

 

My one feature is.....exploration in any form and shape.

 

I would agree, and I would take it a step further.  Exploration, of a large open world, and a leveling pace that takes long enough to see a lot of it on your way up to max. 

I might have cheated and snuck two in there, but I tried to tie them together at least. 

I really enjoy playing MMORPGs.  I don't really watch TV, I do a lot of other things with my free time, but there's that space of time when I get home from work and want to just unwind a bit, that a large portion of people fill with TV.  I fill that time with these games.  I enjoy it so much that I am willing to compromise in order to still have my hobby. 

I am also less than impressed with most games and the direction that the genre is heading, but not upset enough about it to quit doing something that I enjoy.  I tend to over think things and analyze everything to a fault, so this is what I did.

I made a list of the things that I like about these games.  For me, it was open world, group content, slower leveling pace.  Whatever, that's not important since this is about you. 

Then I made a list of the things that I dislike about these games (yes I'm one of those guys that makes pros and cons lists for just about everything)  This is less of a "minor cons" list and more of a "deal breaker" list.  What absolutely drives you to rage quit and uninstall a game? 

Now, the key here is to compromise!  There is obviously not going to be a game that fits nice and neatly into what you want, because if there was you would be playing it.  Basically take a your list and decide what you can live without from list 1 and what you can deal with from list 2.  Then use that to make the most informed decision possible. 

I was actually surprised by my list.  For example, I didn't have graphics listed at all.  Good luck!

Originally posted by Rigur
 EQ had a legends server for 45$ a month for awhile. I only tried it for one month so can't really say how the community was.

My goodness I haven't thought about Stormhammer in a very long time.  Made me go dig this up:

http://www.gamespot.com/news/everquest-legends-qanda-2848677

It lasted a little while, I never played on it, but I had some friends that tried it out.  It did have a very similar design concept to what the OP suggested. 

Originally posted by Redcor

I have noticed that as more games go F2P there are more asshats around than ever before. Even my favorite shooter (CounterStrike) is so jacked up with hackers these days its no fun to play. I see more and more hacking and more punk-ass kids talking trash in chat and greifing guilds popping up.

Do you think a rated M game with say a $25. a mo. sub fee would curb these losers ?  Would you pay that a month to be in a better more mature community ? I would probably pay more to be honest with you but I have $$ to burn.

What do you think ? 

Me, personally, I would be glad to pay $25 a month for a no cash shop game that was everything I am looking for in a game.  That's just not going to happen, but yes, I would pay that much.

That's a bit off from you main point though, so here goes.  Your point assumes two things,

1. most "pillars of the community" mature players have that money to spend.

2. most of the jerks, hackers, trash talking greifers do not have that money to spend.

I just don't think either of these are accurate. 

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Scot

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Scot

"How about Defiance? tie-in to tv is new.

TSW? The setting is new.

Destiny? "shared world shooter"?

Lots of new stuff"

 

Ok Defiance is a MMOFPS but yes I agree we have so few of those it is breaking new ground.

TSW, very different setting and combat quite newish.

So only 2 in 12 months? I would add SWOTR actually but not GW2. So three. Three MMO's with something different in a year, its actually not been that bad a year, true.

Now lets go back to when Lotro started six years ago. In that space of time I would only add AoC as trying something different and maybe I am being nostalgic there. I would lump PS2 in with Defiance, I don't think every new MMOFPS gets its own spot.

So that's four in six years, does not look so good now does it? Others may have there own idea of ground breakers, would be interesting to see what they think.

Also my original point was more to say you will struggle bringing out a standard MMO as we simply have so many. Unless you can do the normal template really well like GW2, your success will be limited.

Add in LoL, WoT, D3 (i count it as new because of the build system), and other close-to but non-MMOs, and suddenly there are lots of new stuff to try out.

BTW, i would also add Marvel Heroes .. although the game is not very polished, it is new .. a hybrid ARPG/MMO with known marvel characters. There was no MMO close to it before.

Add in PS2 ... Add in Dust 514 and we have quite a lot in the last 2-3 years.

Sure the number may be lower if you go back in time more. But most of these games are recent .. so i can safely say devs are trying new stuff in the recent 1-2 year time frame and there are more to come.

 

 

We have had a good year, but you are throwing in WoT and D3 (Diablo again) when I am talking about MMO's. Both good online games but not MMOs. What this points to is that developers are trying to make more innovative MMOs, but what you see in one year may be just a coincidence, only time will tell.

 

WoT and D3 are close enough to me.

In fact, i expect the market to move away from pure MMO and have more online games with some MMO elements. The makers of WoT is now making two more games which i am following.

Sooner or later, there will be more debate about definitions of MMOs here, just because devs are innovating and there will be games that are close to MMOs but not MMOs strictly by someone's definition.

Personally i think it is a good thing. Devs are innovating if the definitions of these games are getting fuzzy.

Just like Borderland .. great game ... do you call it  a FPS or a RPG?

 

I'll agree that the market will probably go that way.  Why change the definition of the term MMORPG?  To me, diablo, poe, the new marvel game, all of those are action role playing games.  It even lists poe as such on it's website.  I have seen them called that since diablo 2.  I love these games, there fun, and sometimes it can be a real headache to try to classify games under one specific category, but these seem easy to me.  Like you always say, if they're fun, play them.  I don't see how that translates to smashing them into a category where they don't fit.  The genre has changed and still retained it's defining characteristics.  EQ and other older games were much different from WOW and SWTOR and such, but those are all still MMORPGs.  Wildstar, ESO, EQnext are MMORPGs coming out in the near future.  poe, diablo, and marvel heroes are action role playing games.  I've always heard them described as such, and they fit nicely into those different categories.   

My highest character in NWO is level 50 something.  I have multiple alts at various levels.  I haven't died yet on one character.  It's already making the game seem stale to me.  I know it gets more challenging at higher levels, but the only fight that has  been tough was the mad dragon.  That was more of a grind it out, long fight than actually challenging.  I think people get upset because they are not used to death in this game and even the minor penalty NWO has can be frustrating if you're not used to experiencing it yet. 

The game has very different agro mechanics.   Healers pull more threat than the tanks without even trying.  I have been tanking in this game with some friends on vent and, once you understand how to do these fights, it's almost trivial.  What we have done is had the tank on the big boss, and everyone else sits on the cleric.  The cleric is going to pull agro from  the many adds that most boss fights spawn.  The DPS peel them off the cleric, kill them and add some damage to the boss when they can.  It makes fights a little longer, but also, very easy. 

The problem, I think, is when a cleric gets a pug and all the adds run to the cleric during a boss fight and the dps just stay tunneled into the boss.  Clerics are going to die and it's not really their fault.  I can see how that's frustrating. 

Sorry, I kinda rambled off topic there.  I'm used to and would like to experience failure a lot more often then in NWO.  I voted 100+ but a lot of that has to do with the fact that I would also like to see a game take much longer to reach max lvl and as such the experience would be filled with more deaths.

I always enjoyed raiding.  I raided multiple nights a week in 5 different games and it was mostly to have fun learning the fights, hanging out with friends and to work at beating the harder bosses that took multiple attempts before we got it right.  Gear was always one of the last things on my mind.  Sure it was nice getting a new upgrade, but it was just a means to take on harder fights.  I honestly took more enjoyment out of watching someone else get an upgrade that they were really excited to get. 

For me it was all about hanging out with friends and that feeling when you down a boss that you have been stuck on for a few attempts.  It didn't feel like grinding or being on a "wheel" because I was having a blast. 

It seems like you're more into the crowd that wants another AAA sandbox pvp title, and I hope you get it soon.  I'll play it too, but I'll find a good group of people and try to beat the hardest pve encounters in the game, and have fun doing it.  It's all about focusing on what you enjoy. 

Originally posted by koboldfodder

 

You had to read what the NPCs were saying, and in some cases you had to [type stuff that was in boxes] and in a lot of cases you had to figure it out all for yourself.

 

/say what stuff that was in boxes?

Sorry, I just couldn't help myself.

I voted yes because I do read or listen probably %90 of the time.  If I have done the quest before and I'm on an alt, I skip it.  If it's clearly just a kill a certain number of mobs and I can clearly see that coming, I might skim through the reason why and skip it if it's not that well written.   I do a lot of writing for a living and so I do feel a little guilty not paying attention to the work that has been put in.  I'm also a sucker for a good story, so it doesn't take much to get my interest piqued. 

I'm looking forward to some new "sandbox" ideas that might be coming with some new games over the next few years.  I'm open to try whatever, but I do think right now, I prefer classes.  I just like very clearly defined roles.  I do like to see a lot of different options though, enough of releasing a game with 4-5 classes.  That's not enough for my taste. 

I didn't really get into UO or SWG, or any other game that didn't use classes, so I really am not trying to make a judgment.  I'll have to try it to find out I guess, but I worry that I'll just find something online that works the "best" and go with that anyway.

Originally posted by Kleptobrainiac
In the old days, when they had their place, CC was my favorite role.

Here's to hoping it makes a comeback.

Mine too.  I also liked buffing/debuffing classes, when the buffs were powerful enough to make a difference.  I would love to see either one again, I really miss powerful haste/slow as well as keeping all the adds locked down and if you're really good keep track of a charm as well. 

Believe it or not, Neverwinter's control wizard is pretty good at CC and it helps out a ton in higher level dungeons.  It's not long lasting, but they gave the class a good toolbox and it's a lot of fun to control (and kill)  all the adds, while the boss is being tanked. 

EQ1

EQ2

WOW

EQ1 on a time locked progression server up to PoP, which works out to be

Year 1: Classic

Year 2: Kunark

Year 3 Velious

Year 4 Luclin

Year 5 PoP

That would do me just fine.

WAR because of my love of the ip and the table top game.  I wanted to love that game.

Vanguard had to be the strangest story of a failed launch ever.  The whole debacle with Sigil and Microsoft and SOE, you couldn't make that stuff up.  As it is right now, it's a great game, and in pretty good shape considering how much attention SOE gives to it.  If it only released in the shape it's in right now... I can't even imagine where it would be by now.  I blame myself for getting too excited about this game, and it was a huge let down for me.  This was supposed to be the next everquest with updated graphics... it could have been, but no.  I mean remember the vision?  It used to be all about the vision man!  LOL, oh Brad.