Originally posted by Khole

How is TOR going to keep subs when most of the games coming out are B2P or F2P? 

The age of subscriptions are coming to an end and EA  is going to find out that this is going to hurt them if they don't change their model to something more fittng of the times.

I hope that is not true. I cannot argue that things are headed that way but F2P is a huge ripoff in the long run. It is just a way to make you spend more money in the long run. How many f2p mmos actually kept any promises about excluding bonuses that "break" the game. None as far as I can tell. The whole damn thing is a slippery slope if you ask me lol. 

Companies just need to make games worthy of subscriptions. I have a hard time believing Blizzard was the last that could pull it off. Of course there are still other sub games out there but there is already talk of them going f2p. Then again if the financial incentive is to pump out absolute crap with purchasable bonuses we are all screwed. 

I just cannot see them being successful in the long term. Well, not a HUGE success. This is still Star Wars I guess. The game itself is terrible. It took a lot of what was wrong with MMOs and slapped on voice acting. To a lot of people there is a draw to the SW universe though. Even SWG survived after the update, albeit lightly. 

As long as any  future gaming company takes away from SWtOR that such extreme sharding is a terrible idea, rails need to be hidden much, much (much, much, much, much) better and voice acting needs to be used appropriately I will thank the game for contributing to the evolution of MMOs. All my opinion of course. I just do not see the whole MMO aspect of it. The sheer fact that other people are playing does not make an MMO. On a single server everyone should share the same world. Probably my biggest issue. 

If WoWs latest expansion taught me anything... We need side quests. We just need them to be what they are, "Side." I hated cataclysm as much as I hated SWtoR. So linear you want to gouge your eyeballs out. Well, maybe that is just me lol.  Random quests are great. Having a linear sequence that you cannot deviate from is not. I would rather watch a movie. It is the same thing. The only difference is netflix is cheaper. 

EDIT: Quoting does not seem to work. Fun. 

EDIT: I hit reply instead of quote. My bad. 

This game is not an MMO. Let the sales records reign. Lets see how many subscribers there are in a year. Hell, two years. This is a single player game with MMO aspects like GW. The difference is GW does not ask for 15 dollars a month. My worry is they will see this terrible game and change their minds. If I ran into one more elevator or freaking "weird, because their is no reason rock" I will burst.  Not to mention I hope any company that  takes anything from  from SWtoR... it is that they should not voice act side quests. 10 rats were bad. 10 rats plus 3074 (call the hyperbole police!) minutes of dialogue is worse. 

Originally posted by Starpower

Originally posted by demz

Originally posted by Starpower

@Demz

 

Reason I wrote the first line is because you "seem" to see the whole post as hyperbolic, where as I see it as trying to state a rediculous fact AND using hyperbole. The latter which I don't care about.

It's true you don't have to write it's your opinion every time you make a post but sometimes it's absolutely necessary. Specially with a sentence like this "Story" = Timesink, nothing more.(and not as interestering as we have been led to believe)

Not only is the wording loaded with baiting (which you could avoid by stating it's his opinion) but he is also using the word we as if there is some general concensus here.

 

I am going to have to disagree. "Story=Timesink" to me is not different than any other statement made about any MMO in the history of MMOs. Be it  "Quest=grind" or "raid>pvp". It is opinion. They introduced a new mechanic to swtor. It is bound to get the same opinionated treatment as all aspects of MMOs. Good or bad. His opinion is that story=timesink. Whether his ratios are right is neither here nor there.

He does not need to state that it is an opinion anymore than someone who has something positive to say has to do the same. "Loaded" is subjective in-and-of itself. Who is it loaded towards? The same could be said of baiting. I think we are just working towards the trouble that has plagued MMOs from the beginning... people have allegiance to certain things and see certain postings, activities and so on as threatening. No, that was not some attack on you. It is fairly common and I think we can all agree that it is an obvious trend at this point after so many MMO launches. Trolls exist and fan boys exist. The issue is that the line between the two has become blurred to the point that talking about anything has become some how controversial. The OP used exaggerated language but where does the line get drawn? Tough question. But either way I do not think he was stating anything as fact.

Edited: Atrocious spelling

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/4646373

We agree on some of it but he did try and state it as fact. We are just going to have to agree to disagree on it.

As to wheter he needs to write it out "this is an opinion" or not depends on thow you look at it. If you want to get attacked by rabid fanboys then yes. You don't have to look any further than this thread.

 

Overall we agree about what is or isn't opinion in all other aspects.

The arguer in my has to point out that he said "In my opinon, these are facts." That is the same as saying opinion. If I said "In my opinion Santa Clause exists and that is a fact"...  it is a fact... only to me. In all other circumstances outside of the person who made the statement it is an opinion. Quibbling, I know. But still true :)

Originally posted by Starpower

@Demz

 

Reason I wrote the first line is because you "seem" to see the whole post as hyperbolic, where as I see it as trying to state a rediculous fact AND using hyperbole. The latter which I don't care about.

It's true you don't have to write it's your opinion every time you make a post but sometimes it's absolutely necessary. Specially with a sentence like this "Story" = Timesink, nothing more.(and not as interestering as we have been led to believe)

Not only is the wording loaded with baiting (which you could avoid by stating it's his opinion) but he is also using the word we as if there is some general concensus here.

I am going to have to disagree. "Story=Timesink" to me is not different than any other statement made about any MMO in the history of MMOs. Be it  "Quest=grind" or "raid>pvp". It is opinion. They introduced a new mechanic to swtor. It is bound to get the same opinionated treatment as all aspects of MMOs. Good or bad. His opinion is that story=timesink. Whether his ratios are right is neither here nor there.

He does not need to state that it is an opinion anymore than someone who has something positive to say has to do the same. "Loaded" is subjective in-and-of itself. Who is it loaded towards? The same could be said of baiting. I think we are just working towards the trouble that has plagued MMOs from the beginning... people have allegiance to certain things and see certain postings, activities and so on as threatening. No, that was not some attack on you. It is fairly common and I think we can all agree that it is an obvious trend at this point after so many MMO launches. Trolls exist and fan boys exist. The issue is that the line between the two has become blurred to the point that talking about anything has become some how controversial. The OP used exaggerated language but where does the line get drawn? Tough question. But either way I do not think he was stating anything as fact.

Edited: Atrocious spelling

Originally posted by Starpower

Originally posted by demz

Originally posted by Starpower

Originally posted by demz

The people attacking the OP really have no idea what "Logic" means. It must be some abstract sense. If we are going to start talking about true logic than the OP is certainly guilty, but woe to anyone disagreeing with him so far... fallacy abounds. Hyperbole to convey a point is not exactly unheard of and I think the average reader can understand what is being said.
 

I think you need to recheck what fallacy and hyperbole is.

 

Story = timesink (this is an opinion passed as a fact) The reason why this can't be a fallacy or a hyperbole is because a timesink is based on a persons feeling towards a given activity, . It's subjective. You may design something with the express purpose of it being a timesink but that is something else entirely. It's neither false nor is it an exaggeration

Hyperbole, as I know you know, is an exaggeration. Your opinion of what story=timesink as opposed to the OP is irrelevant in terms of what he meant. Obviously 95% of the game is not dialog. You are bordering on a false choice here. Are you arguing that he was stating what he said as a fact (that you call opinion?) If so what is the alternative? It is easy to argue against something when you couch it in terms you can attack as opposed to an obvious hyperbolic statement that leaves a gray area. it was a comment on the amount of dialog. You are taking it to an extreme so you can say it was not hyperbole and he actually meant that 95% of the game was dialog. That itself is more ridiculous than what the OP said. Mainly because you know that too.

 

 

Why are you still stuck on the hyperbole part. I have nothing against hyperbole.. I use it myself sometimes, also by making it obvious of it's intent.

You ask what he should have done?

 

Uh I don't know. For one write more than 3 lines. He could start by writing.

"The story is uninteresting for me leaving only combat and crafting. Even those I feel are generic, seen before a 100 times over."

It's no longer passed as a fact. It would be less trolling and I for one would be more inclined to take him serious. Then again I probably wouldn't have responded either.

I will point you to the first line if your previous post  in regards  to your  question about hyperbole.

No, I am not asking you what he should have done. That was simply unfortunate typing on my part :) . My point is nothing you say against a hyperbolic statement is any more valid than what he said. It was commentary. He was making an obvious exaggerated statement to get a point across. Simply because it is hard to tell what is, and is not, being passed as "fact" from reading text is no reason to simply assume anyone that says anything is stating something as fact. Unless someone presents some evidence of what they are saying it can be assumed to be an opinion.. It can be hyperbolic, caustic, etc. That says nothing for the factual validity of it. Taking an opinion and then attacking it as if it were a fact,  and not on substance mind you but simply that they are wrong, is just skirting the issue by means of deflection or projection (not YOU in particular, just anyone). Could he have said it differently? Sure. Is it non-issue? Not necessarily.

Originally posted by Starpower

Originally posted by demz

The people attacking the OP really have no idea what "Logic" means. It must be some abstract sense. If we are going to start talking about true logic than the OP is certainly guilty, but woe to anyone disagreeing with him so far... fallacy abounds. Hyperbole to convey a point is not exactly unheard of and I think the average reader can understand what is being said.
 

I think you need to recheck what fallacy and hyperbole is.

 

Story = timesink (this is an opinion passed as a fact) The reason why this can't be a fallacy or a hyperbole is because a timesink is based on a persons feeling towards a given activity, . It's subjective. You may design something with the express purpose of it being a timesink but that is something else entirely. It's neither false nor is it an exaggeration

Hyperbole, as I know you know, is an exaggeration. Your opinion of what story=timesink as opposed to the OP is irrelevant in terms of what he meant. Obviously 95% of the game is not dialog. You are bordering on a false choice here. Are you arguing that he was stating what he said as a an opinion (that you call a fact?) If so what is the alternative? It is easy to argue against something when you couch it in terms you can attack as opposed to an obvious hyperbolic statement that leaves a gray area. it was a comment on the amount of dialog. You are taking it to an extreme so you can say it was not hyperbole and he actually meant that 95% of the game was dialog. That itself is more ridiculous than what the OP said. Mainly because you know that too.

 

The people attacking the OP really have no idea what "Logic" means. It must be some abstract sense. If we are going to start talking about true logic than the OP is certainly guilty, but woe to anyone disagreeing with him so far... fallacy abounds. Hyperbole to convey a point is not exactly unheard of and I think the average reader can understand what is being said.

The voice overs are great for the the story and tedious for side quests. Considering every. single. side. quest. I am disrupting some random "power" generator or some other such nonsense to stop the separatist/rebel/imperial/some guy with time on his hands etc. There literally is so very little spectrum when it comes to non-story quests. They are literally instantly forgettable and annoying. This can be said for most MMOs but frankly considering the drawbacks it cannot be overlooked. There is not even any variation. There is no special quests in any amount worth speaking of. BONUS kill 4634343 separatists!  This is Guild Wars asking for 15 dollars a month. A single player game with multiplayer aspects.

This game is a tunnel, plain and simple. I have been thinking of remaking the maps to remove the vast majority of land that cannot be accessed just to show what the maps actually are, tunnels. I also hate that side quests are not, exactly, optional. They are not side quests as people know them. They are simply quests. You have to do a large majority of them because if you follow the story quests you are going to fall behind terribly.

This happens to me as well. Not horrible but it happens. My biggest gripe is the responsiveness of things like the auto-run button or sitting down/standing up, the pause annoys the hell out of me for some reason.