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All Posts by Pratt2112

All Posts by Pratt2112

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1145 posts found
Originally posted by zaberfangx

I see many post people posting money grab or greed, people don't get it, you gave them your money, it's not money grab if your willing to add your credit card they didn't come up and said you most pay us to play are game.

 What you think sub mmo are? thats money grab you have to pay us to buy are game, and pay us to even log in.

I find it hysterical, and equally sad, that you're even attempting to argue this. People paying well over $100 for a FREE TO PLAY MMO... and can't get, or aren't getting what they paid for, and you're seriously trying to play the "P2P is worse!" card. Hilarious.


Only someone raised in the "I want everything free because I'm entitled" Torrent generation would consider it a "money grab" when a company wants  - gasp - a single monthly payment in return for a product or service (both in the case of a P2P MMO)... especially compared to what people are continuously encouraged, or even compelled, to spend in a Cash Shop, every minute they're logged in.


Only someone ignorant (willfully or otherwise) to what a subscription covers in a P2P MMO would attempt to make the argument that a sub is somehow a money grab.. especially compared to how many/most 'Free To Pay' MMOs design their games around their cash shops.


And again, it's hysterical how people will so blatantly and drastically adjust their views. Pay $150+ on a supposed F2P MMO (equal to buying the game plus 6 additional months of sub service) on a game that locks up added benefit and convenience behind pay-walls in the name of "being optional", and that's just A-OK, peachy keen.. Be asked to pay $13-$15 for a monthly sub to access everything  and watch the outrage fly. 


When people will rationalize that spending hundreds on virtual items in a Cash Shop is a great deal because "the game is free to play!", while balking at the idea of paying a mere $15 a month for all-you-can eat monthly access... it's absolutely no surprise that F2P MMOs are so popular. So many people really are that thick and gullible.


People spending well over $100 for access (which many aren't getting) to a FREE game... and you're seriously attempting to color Sub-based MMOs as the worse example. Comedy gold.


Originally posted by Yaevindusk
Originally posted by doodphace
Originally posted by Yaevindusk
Originally posted by Varex12

Pure sandboxes don't make money.  AAA titles are run by big companies who like to make money.  Pretty simple, when you think about it.  

The pure sandbox game is reserved for the indie developers whose main goal is to draw some interest through niche marketing since they don't have the funds to provide that big budget feel in their games.   




Pure conjecture.


How can one formulate an opinion on something that hasn't been done in recent years?  With all the Themeparks going around and people repeating the phrase "zzz... another themepark", how can one assert to know a true Sandbox of AAA quality would not succeed?  In fact, if games are using it just to Hype -- and this amount of people are falling for it -- it only shows that the market is ripe for a high quality and flawlessly executed sandbox game.

Thats like saying A Track tapes would sell like hotcakes, and anyone who says otherwise is talking pure conjecture because they haven't been sold in recent years.....

There is a reason sandboxes stopped being made....and no, its not because "devs got lazy".


The last Multiplayer Sandbox that was done well was Minecraft (Go figure, an Indie title before it got so popular that there are rumors of it being bought for 2.5 billion).  The one before that, Ultima Online (by Origin: We Create Worlds before it became successful and was bought out by EA).  Both were successful in their own right; Blizzard chose to copy off of Everquest, and Themeparks became known as WoW Clones.


Making up or quoting a situation that has no relevance to the topic at hand does not prove or disprove anything -- "A"(?) Track tapes are an old technology, not a subgenre.  I can't even fathom why someone would seemingly make an analogy trying to disprove that something was conjecture.  It's been proven that genres and subgenres come back into popularity after a time, and the Sandbox Multiplayer genre barely started before people began seeing dollar bills with the themepark market.  Now Sandpark is back and is used to Hype -- because seemingly appealing to people.

Not to mention that 8-Track (which I'm sure is what they meant) actually did have a degree of success. 8-Track players were installed in cars, people had stereos with them, etc. They were eventually replaced with audio cassettes (I'm sure there are people here young enough to not be familiar with that... god I'm old lol). I remember my sister/brothers popping between tracks on their 8-Track players to find a song, or sitting down, myself, and looking at them (at that age, everything was fascinating to me). 

They became obsolete for the same other mediums have... something better came along and replaced it. 

Which is another reason the 8-Track analogy doesn't apply well to a discussion about MMOs. A better analogy would be CD versus Vinyl. They're both audio media, they both have a degree of popularity, but Vinyl isn't as popular (but seems to be making a comeback). However, they can each co-exist, catering to their particular market.

An Indie dev would be the one more likely to release a true Sandbox MMO, because they're in a better position to take risks and try new things. Big devs are too concerned with following market trends and only doing what's proven to be popular.


Interesting interview. It was interesting to read a bit about the early process of how they design new play field, etc. I enjoy learning about that kind of "behind the scenes" type stuff. so any little tidbit is nice.

As has become normal (for me) since ARR's release, there's always at least one answer given by Yoshi-P and/or his partner, that makes me scratch my head, thinking "Huh?"

In this case, it's this bit:

Q: Do you have plans to implement open-world dungeons like there were in 1.0?

A: Kasuga: If Yoshida would like to do this then we'll think about it. However, after patch 2.35 North Shroud has been congested, and there are concerns that the same conditions would occur in other areas as well if we implemented open-world dungeons.

Yoshida: Right now, due to the fact that North Shroud serves as the entrance point for the Second Coil of Bahamut as well as the location of the Ixali base it's extremely crowded. When it comes to field areas, we need to consider congestion when creating content. It wouldn't be impossible to design such a dungeon, but the really difficult part is reward balancing. Also, it would very likely be content you couldn't complete with a small amount of people, and conversely, it would be completed quite easily if more than the necessary amount of people were to attempt it. If we were to implement this, just one wouldn't be enough and we would have to implement multiple dungeons at the same time. This kind of content would turn into a massive raid with even more participants than the Crystal Tower, and, similar to the 80-player raids of first generation MMORPGs, it would be easy to find people when it's implemented, but after a while it would be really tough to get the right amount of people together.

When we started developing FFXIV: ARR, there was the question of whether or not we would make dungeons using open-world areas, but we decided to consider it at a later date since that kind of content wouldn't last two seconds if we implemented it without balanced rewards and participation.

Additionally, the congestion in North Shroud is quite rough, so we're currently looking into whether we should implement a system that has been adopted by other MMORPGs for making multiple instances of the same open-world area. The preparations have already been made and we've implemented this into the Chinese version of the game, so we do have some operative results. We'll be testing things up until the last minute to be sure that the concept of multiple open-world instances is clear for players who aren't used to this kind of system.


MMORPGs have had open-world dungeons for over 10 years now. FFXI had open world dungeons. 1.0 had open world dungeons. One of his favorite MMOs, Dark Age of Camelot, has/had open world dungeons. EQ1 and 2... open world dungeons. How the hell can he seriously say that they can't figure out how to implement them? There's over a decade of references for them to draw from, including one of their own MMOs (namely XI), for crying out loud. 

Worried about congestion in a single area? Implement more than one. Make it massive, split up into different regions, a la the current cities, and have multiple entrances from different zones.... I have to wonder if the "congestion" issue is a result of short-sightedness in how they designed the new infrastructure, because again... there are many MMOs with open world dungeons, and they don't seem to suffer that kind of problem.

He's made these kind of "I can't think of a way to do that" comments a number of times before, and in every case, there's already been a plethora of examples to draw from of how other devs did it. 

It's like he's developing the game in a bubble sometimes.



Originally posted by jpnz

Recently 2 of my friends got married and found out afterwards that their wives were ex-WoW players.

This started a series of events that ended up with 9 players in Karazhan cause most of us left during the BC/Wrath era and no one knew what the heck was going on. 

Where are my talents? Why is there a pokemon game in WoW? I was told there is farmville in WoW now. Where is it? F it! Lets pile into Kara for old times sake!

While it was a fun run of 9 people for '2-3 hours' something struck me. Not one of us actually managed to play for the full 2-3 hours.

Baby feeding / baby bath / wife aggro / Non-scheduled downtime at work etc all meant people had to take breaks while others went ahead. Now Kara is solo content so we didn't have any issues as we made our way through but what if it wasn't?

What if we were in 'current Raid content' in WoW? Would any one of us actually be able to play?

Now, back in the BC/Wrath days, most of us were single so we could. Now? Married + kids? I don't think so. And I don't think i'm alone in this. The large portion of people who played WoW on release were in their 20s. They grew up and are doing things that most people do when they grow up; have a child /  start a family.

This limitation for us means 'bite sized content' which starts the whole 'lack of grouping' in modern MMOs. If you only have 20mins consecutively, you are not going to be able to group with other people.

Here's the thing, I'm pretty sure we represent the largest portion of the MMO playerbase; middle class or higher, aged around 30-50. As someone from that playerbase, sorry but this 'group content' isn't more important than my baby's meal / baby's bath / Wife aggro / whatever.

MMO players grew up, deal with it. 

So, that's a great explanation of why group content doesn't work for you, your friends/family and, perhaps anyone else whose life situation resembles yours.

That does not, in any way, explain why most... or even many people prefer soloing to group content. You're taking what is a very limited scope of reasons, and applying them to "a majority". It just doesn't work that way.

You also make the oh-so-common and, to me, bafflingly short-sighted, assumption that "most people" have "grown up" and "don't have the free time they once had". Again, that certainly can apply to a portion of the MMO base, but you can not generalize it to "most"Yet, so many attempt to do just that; projecting their own situation on to some population of people they presume to speak for.

Well, let's start with one simple fact.. There are people playing MMOs now who are the very age as us "grown ups" once were. They have all the free time that we once had. They have all the lack of responsibility that we once could claim. They're playing these games as well. It brings to light an interesting contradiction in MMO gamer logic, actually.

People - self-described "adults" - will often describe how the MMO community has "grown up", and use that as the basis for why "the genre should as well". Every time, they completely omit or dismiss the younger people who also share these worlds with us.

Yet, skim through the many threads about WoW, or any other MMO that's even remotely modeled after it.. And what do you find? A plethora of people making the claim that "WoW and games like it are designed for children". Yet, here you are, OP, using WoW as your specific example. 

So which is it? Has WoW "grown up" with its players? Or are they still designing the game specifically for "kids"? It can't be both. My guess? It's neither. Or, perhaps, it's partially both.

There's a population of people who've grown up, who have families, careers and such... who still prefer group content to solo content, even in their limited time. In fact, they schedule their group activities around their own personal schedule. A real-life friend of mine is married with a child, a dog, a full-time job and all that goes with it... He managed to achieve more and get farther in FFXI than I even did... and I had all the time in the world at that point. Why? He planned his game time around his personal schedule, put together a collection of people to get through that group content with... and completed it. And he's only one example of someone I know personally. I've met and/or spoken to plenty others who fall into that "grown up" category, who've done very much the same.

So, merely "growing up and getting more responsibility" does not automatically preclude you from participating in, nor enjoying group content. It comes down to how people choose to spend that time. If they enjoy the group content, they'll find a way, even with limited schedules, to do so. Because scheduling time and prioritizing is something grown-ups are - or at least should be - accustom to doing.

And even beyond that... What are reasons given, rather often, against group-centric content?

- I don't want to depend on others

- I hate waiting for groups

- I don't want to deal with sharing drops

- I want to hop in and do what I want, when I want, without having to wait on others.

- I don't want my fun to be ruined if others in my group suck.

- Most other people are idiots and I'd rather not deal with them

Also see Azzamasin's post directly after mine. They post reasons they aren't a fan of group content, some which echo what I listed here.


That's just a handful of examples I can think off of the top of my head, which I read/hear quite often. None of those have anything  to with "being grown up and limited on time".


I fully accept your explanation as being relevant to you and those in your example, OP. But that's where your credibility ends. The moment you start attempting to speak for some larger group of people, you deem "the majority of the player base", credibility goes out the window.


My advice: Speak for yourself. Let others do the same. That's always the safest bet.


Edit: typo correction and a few changes/additions to phrasing, etc.

Up to WoTG, and before Abyssea, FFXI was the absolute most amazing MMO experience... heck, one of the best gaming experiences I've ever had. I know it's said by many, but I share the feeling that the changes implemented with Abyssea, and since, ripped so much of what made XI the game it was, and what earned it that loyal following for the almost 8 years before they decided to start shoe-horning more "mainstream" elements into it.

I'm going to add this, because I know someone's gonna say it...

Before someone regurgitates the whole, "Oh, the game was terrible pre-Abyssea... It wasn't that good. You're just seeing through rose-colored glasses... There weren't as many options... blah blah". Spare me the empty, dismissive rebuttals. "Nostalgia goggles" didn't keep me playing XI from October 28, 2003 (its NA PC release) until almost 8 years later. "You only played because there weren't many other options" is another vacuous argument. Playing MMOs is not compulsory. There's no such thing as "well, there's only a few options, and you have to play one of them, so may as well play the one that sucks the least!". Not playing any MMOs was always an option as well. If XI wasn't fun, I wouldn't have kept playing. If no other MMOs kept my interest, then I wouldn't have played any MMOs at all.

I kept playing FFXI - regardless of how much competition there was - because I enjoyed playing it.  The World, the Story and Lore, the Characters, the depth, the people I met.. it all came together to create an experience that kept me hooked... up until SE decided to undermine so much of what they'd done up to that point, by creating Abyssea. That's the point at which they decided "convenience" was more important than "experience", and that "being there" was more important than "getting there". In a game where the journey was always important, and pursuing long-term goals was one of the game's major draws, that change - the ability to hop into Abyssea at level 30 and be PL'd to 99 within a day or two - made absolutely no sense. It's especially a shame considering the game had once catered to a communtity whose attitude about it was (to quote an original cast member of Limit Break Radio): "We don't want a game on a plate. We want to work for it".  Now it was catering to the "me me me, now now now" generation... and the game has been far, far worse off for it.

This is driven home by how the advice people seem to give new players, almost unanimously, is "just power-level to 99". Hell, I'm a veteran player, and I was given that "advice" about leveling new jobs.

They would later come out and admit that they screwed up with Abyssea, that they turned the nozzle too far in the other direction.. and that it would be a struggle to try and correct it. They attempted this, somewhat, with their last expansion but... it was too late. People already had too much time with fast, easy progress. The cat was already out of the bag, and there was no putting it back in. SE took an amazing world and MMO... and blew it.

Sadder still, they did it, arguably, for no reason and to no gain. The change pushed away a significant portion of their existing, long-time players. And the changes weren't enough to pull in a large enough crowd of new blood. So, despite their efforts to increase the game's accessibility to bring more people in... they failed, and the game continued to lose players anyway. They destroyed an amazing game that earned them half a million loyal players, just to see their playerbase continue to shrink anyway. Way to go SE.

Now, fans of the game post-Abyssea, or who feel that's when "SE finally got it right" will disagree, will dismiss my words, tell me I'm still seeing through nostalgia goggles (despite my explanation otherwise), or whatever... That's fine. You're enjoying the game as it is now, and that's wonderful. You prefer "Convenience" over "Experience", and "Being there" over "Getting there". Wonderful. SE's catering to you now. Congrats.

I can at least say I got to play the real FFXI, the game SE originally envisioned, before they decided to cave in to the whims and whines of the "Now Now Now" generation and throw all that out the window. The game they're now delivering to will never get to experience that... and that's sad.



I'd be interested in this, too. I've considered starting a new character as well. Illuminati's a great choice (yes, I'm a bit biased there, since I live in NY and have already been playing that faction :p). The Pyramidion and Kirsten Geary alone are reasons enough to join 'em. 
Originally posted by Sarariel
Originally posted by Pepeq
Originally posted by Stonergravy

This article talks of server mergers and such. i can defiantly see why there doing so. i played Wildstar for 2 months but not at launch. i do this now one to let the rush kill themselves thru  and to see if the game has improved and from launch. that being said as for the server mergers i can see why there doing it. i tried two diff servers and man those things are ghost towns. one evening i played for 2 hours before i seen another soul.

Now the main question i have is, has Wildstar failed, or not? the game hasn't been out no time and servers are shrinking. this is obviously not a good sign. so what do you think. personally i think a buy to play option would have been better for this game at launch. at least then the players for the most part would still keep playing.

You can log into WoW on any given day and pretty much say the same thing.  They've spread there playerbase across even more servers and their solution is to coalesce servers virtually in order to make them appear more full.  Even doing all that they still can seem like ghost towns because there are so few really populated servers.


I agree that the subscription model was a bad choice... as it was for ESO. 

I agree with this^

I've been lvling a new toon the past week on WoW, and I can honestly say that I've only came across 10-15 players in total from lvl 1 to 72. Every zone in WoW seems to be dead.

Of course it changes in Org and in the RP capitals.

The minor - as in obvious - difference being... Wildstar has ~30 servers, as a newly launched game and is clearly struggling to keep them if they're already talking merges.

WoW has... oh hell I'm not about to count all of them lol... and still around 6 million players... after 10 years in service. 

Also, referring to what you're seeing out and about in the different zones is not really a reliable way to judge it. For one, again... we know the game has ~6 million people playing it. Those people are somewhere. Whether or not you happen to see many where you are at a given time doesn't really mean anything. I've been wishing there were fewer people around in my playtime. It took me 15 minutes to get a single drop for a quest the other night, because there were about 6 other people just in my small questing area, all hunting the same mobs; and that's been the case in every zone I've been in so far. I've seen people everywhere, in every zone. Every time I've played. So, again.. personal experience doesn't really mean much. 

Also, considering how many people hang out in or around Towns and Cities, or are spending time in BGs or Instances... that's another big chunk right there. Want to see a high concentration of people in a lowbie area? Go to Goldshire at pretty much any given time. They're everywhere.

The fact that you're using WoW - a MMO that is still inarguably a giant - as the basis to judge the success of Wildstar - a brand-new MMO that just released and is apparently having some trouble boggles the mind. I get it.. you're saying "Well, even WoW is a ghost-town!" as a way to lessen the significance of Wildstar's situation. It's just not going to fly. You should really use a MMO that's more comparable to Wildstar in terms of playerbase and server number. 

Originally posted by Yizle
Originally posted by Golelorn
Rift, DDO, EQ2, EQ, WoW, Path of Exile, AoC, TSW, EVE, GW, GW2... I mean really guy? Most legit western MMOs are fine. You wanna play for free you're going to lag behind slightly. Its better than not playing at all, imo.

This. The OP just wants to whine.

Well, I'm not so sure about that.

And there's an interesting thing in what Golelorn says... They justify people being advantaged through paying, by saying: 

"You wanna play for free you're going to lag behind slightly. Its better than not playing at all, imo."

Yet, right in this very thread, on the first page, we have Kyleran saying of sub-based MMOs:

My biggest complaint in MMOs over the years is the huge advantage they gave no life players with more free time to spend on these ganes than me...

He even uses the very common, and always ignorant "no lifers" characterization to marginalize and degrade those who happen to have more free gaming time than he does (pure jealousy, basically). But he's not alone. There are plenty more who've used that same "I don't have as much time as others, so it's not fair that they can get farther than me" type of argument against P2P. It always has, and always will be an argument from pure shameless self-interest, made by people lacking a rational perspective of the world, and their place in it. The idea that one's personal life circumstances outside of the game somehow makes them special, and entitles them to an easier/faster ride in game is about as clear an example of the "Me Me Me" generation as you can find.

If we wanted to be fair - we could use Golelorn's argument with P2P as well. "If you have less time to play, you're going to fall behind others a bit. But it's better than not playing at all". 

Somehow, though, I'm sure the F2P fans aren't going to see it that way. Somehow, there's a double-standard there, and it only applies when money comes into the picture.

People with rational perspectives, who don't suffer from "Me Me Me" syndrome, realize their personal life circumstances don't entitle them to anything. They realize they aren't the center of the universe, and their busy schedule is no one else's problem, nor anyone else's responsibility. They buy the game, pay their sub and play just like everyone else. Everyone has the same content to complete to get what they want, the same challenges, the same obstacles, the same choices and consequences to deal with. In that way, P2P MMOs are as level a playing field as you can get... "personal time limitations" notwithstanding.

If someone is unhappy that they can't make the progress they want due to their real-life situation, the reasonable thing to do is own that and work it out for themselves. They decide to either rearrange their schedule to allow more time, or adjust their expectations to more realistically fit their situation. Problem is, so many don't want to own anything. They accept no personal responsibility, and become indignant if you suggest they should. Instead, they make their grievances someone else's problem. In this case, it typically - somehow - becomes the Developers' responsibility.

In their minds, "I have a busy life and can't play as much as others, and I don't think that's fair. So, '-Developer Here-', you need to develop your game to cater to me" is purely rational and reasonable. Those who recognize the universe doesn't revolve around them, understand how entitled and unreasonable that mentality is.

I realize there's a number of people on these forums (and elsewhere) who fit the description I gave above. I also realize they're not going to like having a mirror held up to them like that. All I can say is... Hey, don't shoot the messenger. I didn't make you think/act that way.

I say all this as someone who has personal time limitations and can't play as much as I used to. The difference is, unlike most others, I've realized that it's my responsiblity to adjust my expectations around my schedule. It's not the developers' responsibility to design their game around me.


Originally posted by gessekai332
Only thing I agree with is making ul'dah less annoying to navigate through. Everything else is just you being lazy or  asking them to change some of the core game mechanics because you havent played a real mmorpg before. 

If we're avoiding using the aether nodes throughout the cities, I actually found Ul'dah to be the easiest of the 3 cities to navigate, since you could either run around the outside, or cut through the middle to get most places.

Limsa Lominsa is annoying to me because it's so much back-and-forth running. Grid never bothered me in 1.x, when it was all one map. It kinda annoys me now, split up into 2 parts. When I think about it, I kinda preferred the all-in-one map setup of all the cities in 1.x. 


As for the OP, I actually agree with a few of his points. The bit about the mandatory random dungeons was annoying to me as well. With how they make so much else of the game soloable, having those thrown in there felt kinda arbitrary and forced. The bit about having to craft to slot your gear also seemed like an unnecessary design choice to me. And, don't even get me started on the stretched-out quest lines with so much filler content that even one of the story NPCs (Y'shtola) remarks on it at one point.




It was absolutely my "home away from home". It was also kind of my "sanity" for a few months, when I was out of work and had more time than normal to burn at home, in between job searching and interviews... the latter of which were sparse. Even with my limited funds, $13 a month was well worth it; there's no other form of entertainment I could have gotten so much time and enjoyment out of for that little money.

It was the World, the lore.. the people I met/knew. The community in that game was amazing. Nothing like hanging out in Lower Jeuno, chatting with people, and watching what shenanigans would ensue at any given moment. Always a great time, even sitting around doing nothing. I knew the world like the back of my hand. You could blindfold me, drop me in the middle of a zone, unblind-fold me, and within moments I could tell you where I was, and how to get to the nearest zone, etc.

Wish I could go back about 11 years and do it all again... Minus the unemployed part.

The Runner-Up for that would be Lineage 2. That was my "other home away from home"; my PvP counterpart to FFXI's PvE. Lineage felt like home for much the same reason.. the people I knew, my clan/alliance-mates, the world was awesome and massive. The music remains, to this day, among my favorite in all of gaming. L2 was a tough shell to crack, especially for a new player, and from the outside, it seemed like nothing but a pointless grind. Once you got past that and started to become part of the community on your server, became part of the goings-on, it became so much more than that. Grinding levels was no longer just grinding xp... It was hanging out with your friends and clan-mates online, talking, joking around, getting drunk, whatever... and killing mobs was just the backdrop to it all, with the occasional PvP encounter to punctuate it.


To this day, I'm still friends with several people I met in both of those games. And I mean real-life friends.. not just "people I chat with online". 



Originally posted by Krimzin


Originally posted by Jabas
You start a thread asking why there isnt more people playing Wildstar, a game where you are having fun.


Then you end saying that those who didnt like it or quit for any reason its because they lack of "skill" to play the game. 


Actually, I never said why aren't there more people playing Wildstar. I asked why all the Hatred for it.

As for the skill part, you are correct. Ive known several people in my guild who couldnt cut it and left. So that part is more of an observation.

It's a subjective observation, which you are then generalizing to a larger group of people, whose reasons for leaving you do not know, but dismiss as "lack of skill" anyway. It's as though you can't fathom (or acknowledge) any other reason why someone would leave a game you clearly enjoy. That's a very dishonest and close-minded way to go about it, and makes you look more like a fanboy trying to indirectly "defend their game", rather than someone genuinely seeking feedback.

This is further evidenced by the fact that you pre-emptively address and then immediately dismiss some other reasons people may not have stuck around, in this paragraph:

"People are going to post behind me and talk about bugs and bots and exploits as to why the game is bad. If you've been following the game at all, Carbine has all but eliminated the Bots, Fixes bugs on a weekly basis and same with exploits."

The bias in your post is about as opaque as a clear glass window.

When you cut through it all, what you're really asking is, "Why don't more people like Wildstar as much as I do?" Of course, you then proceed to try answer your own question, by throwing everyone in a convenient box, labeled "Awful, lazy players, ruined by WoW". This generalization is as misguided as it is silly, considering many people have rejected Wildstar for many of the same reasons they've rejected WoW (as in, they were never WoW players to begin with).

As far as "all the hate"... well that requires some qualification. Are you talking about stuff that can be legitimately considered hate for hate's sake? Or are you including any and all criticism of the game in there? Given the rest of your post, I'm kinda guessing you're including any and all criticism of the game as "hate" - because it's easier to dismiss a lazily constructed strawman, than it is to address a valid, or well-presented criticism (which there has been plenty of).

At the end of the day, when you ask why people seem to be "hating on the game" (as you put it), what they're really doing is voicing their opinion of a game they aren't particularly fond of. 

And if that seems like an odd concept to you, well, it's precisely what you are doing in your own opening post when you describe your views with that list of games...

Everquest: First and foremost great game for its time.
DAOC: Great RvR overall solid game.
WoW: Great in the early years til they dumbed it down.
Aion: Bot infested waste of space.
WaR: Fun game was sad to see it go.
AoC: Fun game but no longevity.
GW2: Nice graphics but a fail game.
FFXIV: Great graphics, fun game but lacking Endgame.
AA: Solid Game if you like PvP. A little light on PvE.
Wildstar: Cartoony Graphics, Great combat system and a lot of Endgame.

In that list, you are sharing  your opinion of those games, whether good, bad or otherwise. Likewise, others share their opinions of Wildstar, whether good, bad or otherwise.

Now, if one wanted to dismiss your criticism of those games, as you dismiss others' opinions of Wildstar, they could simply ignore your specific points, and throw you into a convenient box labeled "lazy", "hater", or what have you.

Now, would you consider it fair or reasonable for someone to just toss your views aside like that, simply because they don't echo their own? Of course not.

So, perhaps you can see the problem with your OP, and why it's dismissive and insulting to others who happen to have issues with Wildstar.




Originally posted by mark2123

The reason Wildstar has been a failure and will not last for much longer is an obvious lack of understanding of how business works.

You either create something to appeal to the masses and hit volume sales e.g. a game with a broad appeal to all types of players (but you must still do it well for you are competing with others for the same customers, so you need quality and USP), or, you appeal to a small niche with something that is so good, the majority of that niche will come to you to purchase.

Wildstar went for the niche and by having an endgame focussing on hardcore raiding, that's their small target of players to aim for.  But it's not enough to sustain a business model for a game that obviously had a lot of time and effort put into it and will have huge ongoing dev costs.  They also put in a major flaw to cheese off their niche market by making the questing grind so bad.  The quests are just in your face, full on tedium, over and over with no meaning to them - the worst kind you could get.  Probably the worst kind of quests to give hardcore raiders as the stick before the carrot.

Wildstar has made it difficult to get those niche players and keep them - and of course, there are other games vying for those same gamers.

At least EVE has a niche with no real competition - Wildstar does not.

The success of WoW is partly down to first-mover advantage and an IP that everyone recognised i.e. Warcraft, but they also cater for all playing styles.  You can be casual and you can be a hardcore raider - and what they do, they do it well.  So Blizzard have a huge potential audience whereas Wildstar has to be damn appealing for it's much smaller target.

Wildstar cannot now be recovered unless they change their strategy, accept losses and re-market a more casual game.  And, tidy up the awful questing.

Otherwise, there is no hope.

Well, I don't see any kind of hard statistics or data backing up anything you're saying there, so I can only take that as conjecture. 

However, if by your statement about WoW having a "first-mover advantage", you're speaking in terms of them being the first MMO to have a sub-based business model, then you're flat out wrong. They were not the first to have subs, nor the first to do it successfully. Not even close.

Also, you make the very common mistake of trying to use WoW as a standard measure of "success". WoW is an anomaly in how well it's done. And  you do not have to have WoW-like numbers to be successful. FFXI is a sub-based MMO that peaked, then settled at around 500,000 players for its first 7-8 years. It's since gone down, but FFXI has been, by any measure, a very successful venture for SE. And XI was and, to some degree, still is, very much a MMO that appeals to a limited audience.

In my  opinion, one problem with post-WoW MMOs, and why - in part - they aren't doing as well, is that they keep making the same mistake. They keep... trying... to... emulate... WoW... and keep missing the mark. They're just following the same basic formula, and aren't doing nearly enough to differentiate themselves.

Asking someone which post-WoW MMO they enjoy most is like asking someone which brand of Cola they like better. They all have the same flavor, there's just little differences between them that makes them not exactly the same. However, they're all still Cola. Wildstar seems to have gone that same route. They adhered to the post-WoW, themepark model, and made a few adjustments to set it apart "just a little". At the end of the day... it's "yet another post-WoW themepark MMO"... just like XIV, just like Rift, just like WAR, just like almost all the others. The little differences work at first, but before long, players see through that and realize they're basically playing the same game all over again.

MMO devs or, rather, the people making the decisions, have to stop with the "me too" game design and try doing something to actually stand out as something different.

Originally posted by LiquidElectron

My least favorite is the 'Entitled', the ones that play a F2P title and demand that they have access to everything possibly available for no cost 'because the game is free'.

I see this so much now.

If we're talking about a sub-based game, or a game that has a restricted F2P mode, but also offers a sub/membership option that opens up more features/options, then I agree.. they are behaving like entitled brats if they demand to get the entire game for free.


However, if we're talking about people who go to a fully F2P/Cash Shop MMO and demand to get the full experience without having to spend a dime... Then, take your complaints to the developers and marketing folks who put so much effort into shoving "FREE!" into all their advertising. Talk to the PR people who go on, at length, about how you can enjoy their entire game, forever, without ever paying a dime.


Don't blame players when they go to these games expecting to get what was advertised, find it's not the case, and then talk about it.

Originally posted by delete5230

Here is what happened,

Lets go Way back.  MMOs were still new and not completely refined. We had UO and EQ1 but they were rough drafts in a time where Dialup was the best we could use.

Around 2003 Blizzard developed World of Warcraft in with competition of Everquest 2 by Sony to be the next generation MMO.  Everquest 2 lost with it's poor graphics engine and just plain ugly world and zoning.

WoW and EQ2 were both released in November, 2004; with EQ2 coming out a few weeks before WoW. WoW was in development in 2003, but it was also in development for a long time before that.

Zoning was not a major problem with EQ2. People weren't making the huge deal about zones back then that they seem to now, and it's rather annoying to see people revising history now to make it sound like it was a major issue back then.

The graphics EQ2 was capable of was not an issue, either. EQ2's graphics, for the time, were pretty bleeding-edge. What killed EQ2 was that hardly anyone could play it on even the lowest settings because the engine was horribly unoptimized, and built on the expectation that CPU technology would evolve in a direction it ultimately didn't. To put it simply: They didn't count on multi-core processing to become common on the home PC at that point, and so the engine was designed around a more single-core design. They also did pretty much all the graphics processing on the CPU, not the GPU, which would also bite them in the ass. It wasn't 'til years later that multi-core or GPU support would find its way into the engine. Consequently, people - even those with pretty high end systems - couldn't turn up the settings to see EQ2's graphics at their best, without bringing their computer to its knees. 

Another reason for EQ2's early issues was what we'd consider a normal part of a MMO's "birthing pains" - bugs, gameplay elements that needed tweaking, etc. I remember having to look for ages just to find a single resource node, they were so few and far between.  By the time they'd had the chance

It was also designed much more around the more traditional MMORPG, with a lot more focus on the "RPG" part. 

SOE did eventually start to turn around, but not before WoW, with its huge built-in Warcraft fanbase, came along and did just about everything completely the opposite: It would run on a child's Easy Bake Oven (obvious hyperbole), it was designed more as a "game" than a "world", and it didn't go very deep into any actual RPG elements. It was, as we've come to know it: "more accessible". It was also polished and very "immediate" in its feedback.

This left us with only World of Warcraft, with perfect timing of EVERYTHING.

- Faster internet with DSL and Cable modem.

EQ2 had this benefit as well, as did others that came out at the time.

- Non instanced game world.

Err.. non-instanced? You mean except for Ragefire Chasm, Deadmines, Wailing Caverns, Shadowfang Keep, Blackfathom Deeps, The Stockade, Razorfen Kraul, Razorfen Downs,Scarlet Monastery, Uldaman, Scholomance, Stratholme, Zul'Farrak, Atal'Hakkar Temple, Blackrock Depths, and the Onyxia and Molten Core raids?

Sorry, WoW's world most certainly did have instancing... from day 1.

- Community based tools and quest hubs.

Concentrated quest-hubs is a subjective thing. Some people think they were a boon to the genre. Some think they were a horrible thing to introduce. Regardless, this is a matter of personal preference, and not something you can objectively state was a key reason for the game's success.

- Slow leveling, allowing everyone to stay that level for longer periods to make friends with a mutual goal.

Err,no. "WoW" and "Slow Leveling" (even in Vanilla) do not belong in the same sentence. The leveling in WoW, compared to any other MMO at the time, was significantly faster. This sounds more like another attempt at revising history, or a case of distorted memory.

- Cartoon, but stable for lower end computers.

You're confusing art style with graphics tech. They could have used the same graphics tech, but went for a more realistic look, and the game would have looked much different, while maintaining the same performance. They stuck with that look because it's the style they'd established in Warcraft III, and 'worked' for their universe.

- Quick fixes to bugs.

Another dubious claim that seems more "flawed memory" than actual fact. I remember issues going on for quite some time in WoW. Especially early on.

- Non-Zoned Areas to play, with a theme for each one along with music to set the mood.

Well, each zone having its own theme song is hardly noteworthy. Seems more like filler to make the list seem more impressive. Most MMOs have unique songs for a given zone, and did even before WoW came out.

Again, zoning is a subjective thing. Some people seem to treat it as though it's some huge deal, and I think they're overstating things. Let me explain why with some questions...

Considering there were no flying mounts in Azeroth for the first several years...

If you're in Stormwind, and want to get to... say... Lakeshire. Are you going to run there on foot since, you know, it's a seamless world? Or are you going to hop on a gryphon and fly there? I'm guessing you're going to fly there, correct? What are you doing while flying? You're waiting, right? Kinda like  you'd be doing with loading screens? Or, how about moving between contintents? Loading screen, right? Entering/exiting dungeons/instances? Loading screens, right? Returning to your Homepoint? Loading screen, right? Using a player-conjured portal to another location? Loading screen, right? 

My point is, unless you're running from one zone to the next one over, or maybe 2 zones over... chances are you're going to be either teleporting there, which involves a loading screen, or using fast travel, which involves waiting while you get there. 

Meanwhile, in a MMO with zones, you tend to spend a lot of time in one zone anyway. If you're going to be traveling a longer distance, several zones away, chances are you're going to teleporting there, or using some means of fast travel - which requires loading screens and waiting, just like it does in a seamless world. So, unless you, for some reason, are choosing to move back and forth between areas a lot, you're not going to be zoning that much anyway.

In other words: the whole "seamless worlds are so much better than zones!" thing is kinda pointless.

- 6 starting areas for freedom and replay.

Well, limited freedom. I can't choose Human but choose to start in Teldrassil. I can't be an Orc and choose to start in the Forsaken area. So, if you're someone who sticks to certain races over others (as many people do, in my experience), you actually are going to be seeing the same zones, and doing the same content quite a lot. True freedom would be like how FFXI (among others): Choose your race, and your Starting City yourself. 

- PvP that worked.

Debatable, considering how Blizzard would later neuter the world PvP as they did, favoring structured and controlled arena-style combat, over open, conquest-based world PvP. 

- Low competition

Another vague item. Low competition for what? 

- No costly expansion's for years, adding they were not needed for years

Another highly subjective item that, frankly, seems to run counter to what many/most others say. One of the bigger complaints about Blizzard and WoW over the years has been that they don't release new expansions or content fast enough. That it took them 3 years to release their first expansion could be seen as a big negative... not a positive. It means that people were stuck doing the same content over and over again, month after month, before Blizzard provided them some truly new content to play through. 

With WoW's faster progression rate, relative to most any other MMO out there (especially at the time), their slow content release schedule was actually a problem for a lot of players.

The list could go on and on. EverQuest 2 fans could argue forever but WoW was it, hands down. The money was rolling in. Marketing was not structured enough to interfere yet, not that it had to !......Millions of people were rolling in, kids in school had a major fade. " if you don't play WoW your behind ".

Why do you specifically address EQ2 players? Do you have a friend who debates you all the time on which game is better or something?

No one could argue that WoW absolutely kicked EQ2's ass. I readily state that, and I preferred EQ2's world and playstyle much more than I did WoW's. I suppose in a place, like these forums, where reality is readily ignored  by some, in favor of their own preferred "beliefs", that would make sense. But, for those of us who deal in reality, WoW came out on top... compared to EQ2, and almost every new MMO to come since.



Originally posted by Alders
Originally posted by Thestrain


3.) Make sure to have a popular IP with huge following both in Asia as well as West.


Could have just stopped right there.

Well, I dunno...

It didn't do much good for them on the first time around with XIV.

A popular IP might get people through the door... It sure won't keep them there, though.

Originally posted by Quicksand
Originally posted by Thestrain

1.) Keep funding in house.

2.) Successful launch with minimal hiccups on console as well as PC.

3.) Make sure to have a popular IP with huge following both in Asia as well as West.

4.) Profit!!!

Having deep pockets like SE also helps. But it is much easier ride to success when you don't have investors looming over you 24/7.

Considering most of us that bought FFXIV, bought it when it actually launched, suffered through arguably the worst mmo launch ever, then saw the game servers close so that its completely reworked and "FIXED" version could open up. So how you call FFXIV a "Successful launch with minimal hiccups" is confusing.


But clearly your thread is designed to illustrate the fact that you are enjoying FFXIV, so in that regard, Glad you are having fun.

Also, I would hardly even describe XIV's re-release as having "minimal hiccups". Unless you consider many people being unable to log in at all for almost 2 weeks (among other issues) "minimal". 

They were unable to fix problems in a timely manner because, unlike other MMO devs, SE did not have a system in place that allowed them to swiftly increase server load to meet demand.

They put people on brand-new, untested servers for their US market, which led to a repeat of issues they'd just had to solve with their other servers (which, by comparison, had months of testing and fine-tuning).

XIV's launch - both times - was rife with issues. "Minimal hiccups"? Hardly.

Of course, for certain people, they'd still call that a "flawless launch", because XIV happens to be "their game", and hence pointing out any flaw in it is tantamount to "hating the game" and "trolling". 

Originally posted by DamonVile

The ninja really bugs me. The guy that can't wait his turn or tries to take something you've obviously fought to clear a patch to.


I dealt with one of them the other night.  Those people are seriously obnoxious. 


I was killing my way through a tunnel to get to a main enemy for a quest line. This person was following me but sorta hanging back, trying not to be seen. I noticed them at first, but thought they were maybe just standing there, momentarily AFK, checking on their quest log, or whatever.


However, as I continued, I noticed they were following me, but still hanging back.  I went on and killed a few more... sure enough.. there they are, trying to seem inconspicuous as they followed me. 


I caught on to what they were doing (it's happened to me before), thought "oh hell no", and, being a rogue, put myself into stealth, hit Sprint, and dashed past the next 5 or 6 enemies going straight to the main enemy I needed.


I cleared the normal enemies out when I got to the main objective area, then stood there, still stealthed... a short distance away from the main target. I waited 'til the guy had cleared the final normal enemy on the way, and came running into the room. They didn't have ranged attack, so they had to run up to to hit it with melee. Right when they were about a second from reaching it, I sneak attacked it, and then killed it in front of them. 


I timed it that way deliberately, so the regular mobs would have been spawning back by the time the main guy was respawning. This would-be leap-frogging ninja would have to deal with the regular mobs in addition to the main guy, making his task that much more difficult.


Satisfied his attempt had backfired on him... I waved and ran off to kill the remaining normal enemies I needed.


Originally posted by JeroKane


 Why don't you read and quote my whole post, instead of only quoting two lines and pulling it out of contex!!

Trolling much? Got some kind of agenda?


Umm.... ooookay?


I'm not trolling at all. Nor do I have an agenda. This is a message forum, and I'm discussing something you posted.


You, however, are seriously over-reacting for no reason. Lay off the knee-jerk reactions, take a breath, and relax. I did read your entire post. 


You explain that you don't see any reason for them to go F2P because the game is doing so well. FFXI is also still doing fairly well ("with a subscription" is implied here, I assume). He's saying what he is so that if/when they ever have to make that change down the line, they won't face the backlash that someone like Smedley has in the past for the many things he's said, and then gone back on at a later date.


You're saying it's better to get in front of that now, so that if they do make the change down the road, he can't be called out for claiming they wouldn't. I made the same observation.


Although, as an aside... According to many of the game's more "enthusiastic" fans.. he already has said that, with the whole "he said he'd shut the game down before going F2P!" mantra that went around for quite a while. While none who made that claim could ever cite or point to the actual quote where he said that, you better believe that will be brought up, and he'll be called a liar, should the time come that they make that announcement.


Again, I did read your post. If you'd calmly read my response, I'm actually agreeing with you for the most part.


The only exception I take, and it's a minor one, is when you say "they have no reason to go F2P". All I'm saying to that is, "for now maybe, but you don't know what they might already be planning behind the scenes for down the road". That's not even so much a disagreement with what you said, as it is a way of saying "well, that's what we know at face value.. there's no way of knowing what's being planned or discussed behind closed doors". 


My point was, there's a reason he gave such a long and detailed response to a very simple question. There's no reason to "get out in front of something", if there's nothing to get out in front of. People who continue insisting "it will never go F2P!" are indulging in wishful thinking, nothing more; and they may well find themselves very disappointed somewhere down the line. In no way can what Yoshi-P is saying be honestly interpreted as "FFXIV will never go F2P". His response to such a simple question makes that abundantly clear.


He was asked, simply: "Do you still have faith in the subscription model?"


All he had to say to that was "Yes, absolutely. We felt Subs were the right model for this game and, with the success the game has seen, I still believe that decision was the right one". Hell, even just saying "Yes, absolutely" would have been a perfectly complete and acceptable answer.


Instead, he went on for 5, nearly 6 paragraphs, explaining all this about F2P and whether they'd consider it, and how he felt about it, and how it's something they could try down the road, but that it would be to try something different, but nothing to do with how well the game is doing.. and on and on. He was offering answers, at length, to questions he was never even asked.


The quote, "The lady doth protest too much, methinks" fits perfectly here. 


That's all I was getting at. There's absolutely nothing for you to have been so defensive about.


Edited to add...


When I think about it more...  Yoshi-P's sorta undermined a favored argument of many fans. A common assertion (which is no more than assumption, really), is that the game wouldn't go F2P unless it was doing poorly and they were losing too many subs. However, Yoshi-P pretty much pulled the rug out from under that argument when he explained:

"That’s why I’m not saying we will always stick to the subscription model; maybe one day we will switch to free-to-play. I’m not saying that day will never come – it possibly could – but it’s not because we have trouble with the game or user numbers are decreasing, it’s because it’s another business model that I want to try out in a positive way."


So, right there, he's pretty much saying sub numbers wouldn't be a factor in such a move.


He also gives some insight to what their thinking is in the rest of his explanation. The most informative part, I think, is how he notes that players are moving more toward paying for what they are playing now, rather than what they might play in the future. Just off the top of my head... that could maybe mean they'd consider a more "a la carte" approach... perhaps like what LoTRO does, where you play for free, and purchase content in "packs" as you go. TSW is sorta doing the same thing with its issue updates. You don't have to buy them unless/until you've decided to do the content.


Regardless, people hanging their hopes of "never going F2P" on how many subs ARR has should really reconsider. Per Yoshi-P, it's not a factor.


Food for thought.

Originally posted by DonY81

Give me some flak if you like but how many of you have not been truly happy with an mmo in ages. I really think that for a lot of folks round here it is simply time to just get onto something new or possibly time to throw the towel in with MMOs altogether. I honestly don't think ESO / AA and many others are that bad at all. I will admit im not playing them but ive been playing MMOs for a fair time too and am burnt out.

All I see about games recently released is bad hate. I mean come on i see people on here barking on about ultima and games that are like from 14 / 15 years ago. Surely to god 15 years is a long enough stint with 1 genre.... no?




No! Don't you give up on me!!

I'm staying here, you hear me?!

I'll never leave your side!

I'm staying right here!

We're going to see this through! Together! You hear me?! TOGETHER!



Well, if they are on "drogs"... it might explain the pricing.

That stuff's not free you know :p.

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