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All Posts by Pratt2112

All Posts by Pratt2112

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Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Muke
Originally posted by macwood

Pay for mods! It is here.. (mod makers only get 25%)

It was only a matter of time untill this happend, now we will start to see half made mods not made with the love of the game in intreset but financial gain.

What was wrong with the love people put in and people who appreciate and had spare funds dontaed, but that has all changed selling 100-300$ gun skins is not enough for valve, they want maybe 25% and the game company 50%? and 25% to the maker.

It will only get worse. no more good guy gabe.

So what is wrong with it?

As a mod maker a dev can earn a bit by uploading his content, there are always people willing to pay for it.

I created some mods and it is fun to see it has been downloaded so many times. If someone is willing to pay me and Steam for it, go for it I guess. And it is not like you are forced to pay for mods anyway. There are always total free mods available, either through Steam or other sources.

Plus any player can make his own mods and distribute it for free or for own use.



basically people appear to not like the idea of giving a modder more options. they should just work for free or ask for donations.


I would like to see where this Free Market concept goes

Note: I've seen some blurbs that Valve has changed some of the terms of the setup to make it somewhat less obnoxious, but these have been my thoughts about the whole idea, regardless...

It's amazing to me, how quickly people forget that modders have been doing what they do - purely for the love of the game - for over a decade now.  About 13 years now, if we're only looking at TES games.

For all that time, they've been doing their thing out of pure passion for what they're doing, for the creativity, to "give" to the community, purely because they love the game, and want to contribute to its world in some way. They haven't demanded money for it. At most, some have provided a donation button for those who'd like to do so.

Point is: Money has never been the motivation behind the time and effort they've put in... for over a decade. Think about that... because it's relevant here, and goes to a big part of why there's been backlash, not only from those who use the mods, but also from those who make them.

It wasn't the modders who said "We should have a way to sell our mods!". No one was clamoring or begging for a system like this.

No. That was Valve's move.

Out of the blue, Valve steps in and decides:

"Hey! Guys, guys guys! We had this awesome idea! You guys can sell your mods... and we'll keep 75% of what people pay!  You do 100% of the work, and get 25% of the revenue! Bam! We LOVE those numbers! 75% to us is totally fair. It was our idea to sell them after all!

Now, we know no one was asking for this, and modding communites have always done what they do voluntarily, for the love of the games blah blah blah whatever... We saw an opportunity to monetize and cash in on that love and passion and, well... you know... Anyway! Isn't that cool?!".

Wait... you hear that? cha-Ching! Could that be... money calling? cha-Ching! Why, I think it is! When money calls, you know we're listenin'!

The joy of seeing people downloading, using, enjoying and even showcasing their work has been the pay-off. The ability to help expand or improve on a game/world they love has been the pay-off. The ability to learn world-building skills that could be applied to actual game projects has been a pay off.

Money has never been a motivation, and anyone who's followed the modding community over the last 13 years knows this.

Now everyone's all "Well of course the modders should get paid! Why shouldn't they? Why should anyone get to enjoy their hard work without paying them for it?!". I see people shaming those who oppose it as being "cheap" and "greedy"... as though they're completely oblivious to the fact that mods have been freely distributed for over a decade now... with the modders happily contributing. I'm not sure if it's willful ignorance, or just extremely stunted memories.

I guess some people just can't see value in something unless $$$ are involved. That's pretty sad, really.

Regardless, many people are completely missing the point here. Two points, actually.

1. Valve's move is something that no one was asking for. Has anyone here seen some huge demand coming from modders for Valve to allow them to sell their mods? I sure haven't. In fact, from what I've seen, there's been push-back by modders who don't like the idea - even some of the bigger named ones - saying that they're against it, it goes against the spirit of what the modding community has been about for over a decade, and that they will not charge for their work.

2. Look at the split. For all their time and effort... modders get 25% of the profit. Valve is keeping 75% of the earnings - without doing any of the work on the mod. They are literally cashing in on others' time and efforts. This isn't some small % they're taking for say, allowing modders to sell their stuff through Steam. No. They're taking - by far - the lion's share. Just because they decided they wanted to. That's a slap in the face.

Considering those %s... do you people seriously think Valve is doing this for the good of its modding community? No. It's an easy way for them to make more money on the backs of their fans' time and effort. They are literally monetizing the passion and talent of their modding communities. Just because. That's just awful.

I gotta agree with what someone said earlier in the thread... "so much for good guy Gabe". I used to think he and Valve were an awesome company whose focus was always on doing what they could for the benefit of their customers (releasing HL3 notwithstanding). It's certainly what Gabe has always touted.  Lately, though... I dunno what's going on over there. It's almost like Bobby Kotick took over or something.




Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Nilden

The money grab of early subscriptions, yea because 15 bucks all inclusive a month is just such a money grab compared to item mall cash shops that sell the game in pay to win pieces and charge a subscription on  top of that.

So laughable. Why not tell us something else completely laughable like that time you said EVE online was buy to play.

Gonna guess you never played MUDs that were mostly completely free and had huge timesinks, you know the things they based EQ and early MMORPGs on...

The fact stands that it clearly was a money grab. There was no reason apart from making more subscription money for the excessive timesinks to have been added to MMORPGs when they haven't been a part of any other genre.  You're free to try to pretend it wasn't a money grab by citing something you feel is more of a money grab, but that doesn't alter the underlying facts.

See, Axe... You consistently come across as someone who seems to have some idea of what they're talking about, albeit with an arrogant, hyper-opinionated "I'm always right about everything" tone to everything you post.

But then you write something like that paragraph, and I have to wonder exactly how you can possibly feel justified in conveying such arrogance, because you demonstrate a complete inability to see from any other point-of-view but your own.

Are you familiar with the term "games as a service"?

Are you aware that, as with anything that is considered a service, the idea is to maintain a long-term relationship with the customers?

Are you aware that in order to maintain a long-term relationship with customers, you have to provide something (the 'service') that makes them want to continue giving you their business, rather than going elsewhere, to a competitor?

Are you aware that MMORPGs are designed as long-term hobbies, not one-shot "finish it and move on" single player games? So, by virtue of being something long-term, yes... it kinda makes sense that they would want to include activities that would keep people engaged over a long period of time?

Are you aware that the mere act of creating long-term content does not guarantee people will keep people playing? That there has to be something enjoyable or worthwhile in it for them, or they're not going to stick around? People don't tend to continuously do something voluntarily if they don't enjoy it... especially if it's costing money as well. It's gotta earn their time, and monthly sub fee. As much as so many would like you to believe that.. it's just not so.

There is something they're enjoying in that content, or they're not going to keep doing it for even days... never mind months or years. People who don't like a game tend to leave that game, no matter how long its content is designed to take. And that goes for any game you can point to, on the market now, in the past, or even in the future.

Are you aware that merely referring to something as a "grind" - aside from being subjective - does not automatically make it a bad thing? That it depends on the activity, and how it is to an individual? What you consider a horrible grind, someone else might find to be really enjoyable. I've known people who enjoyed grinding xp, because they could just relax and chill out, chat with friends in-game, or on voice chat, etc. It wasn't a chore to them at all. Are they wrong for feeling that way? Were they victims of a "money grab", even though they felt it was fully worth the cost?

Are you aware that in old-school MMORPGs, when people were engaged in a "grind", that they were - far more often than not - doing so with a group of others? That that interaction with others often became the main focus of the activity? That it was never just about the activity itself? That the content would, very often, become a background, against which a group of people were engaged in a shared hobby, talking, joking, getting to know one another, and generally having a good time? Perhaps that session of "grinding" would eventually lead to something else... like a dungeon run, or some questing, or exploring.. or whatever...

Are you aware that "not engaging in content when it begins to feel like a grind" is always, and always has been, an option? That there has always been other things a player could choose to do instead, if a given activity was beginning to feel "grindy" to them? I did this throughout my 7+ years of FFXI, and for over 4  years in Lineage 2.  I never did anything I didn't want to do, nor for any longer than I wanted to do it. Neither FFXI, nor L2 ever felt like a grind to me. Yes, I'm being serious. There was *always* a variety of other things I could do. The solution to the "boring grind", is to step off the treadmill, and stop grinding. Sadly, with the self-imposed attitude of "must get to level cap ASAP!" that's so ingrained in MMO players these days, such a suggestion must sound completely crazy. But it works. Every time. I speak from experience.

When people like you, and others, make the kind of arguments you do, they sound great on their face, but it's really such, such shallow thinking. You look only surface deep, and only through a very narrow lens that only supports your narrative. You never take a step back to look at the bigger picture. You never stop to think, well... wait... maybe.. just maybe there's more to this than I'm acknowledging. Maybe I should take some time to try and understand the other side's point-of-view, to understand how they see it, how they feel about these things, what their attitude and approach is to these things?

But see, I don't think that will ever happen with people like you... Your ego is too wrapped up in having to be right about everything, every time. You can't acknowledge a differing point-of-view, or try to understand how others think, and how the way you think about things doesn't really apply to others, because they don't share your perspective, biases, etc... Because if you did, then you'd have to admit that you're not right all the time, about everything. You couldn't write statements, declaring what the "fact" is... as though what is true for you is automatically true for everyone else. And well... we just can't allow that, now can we? Gotta keep up that image!



Originally posted by Dr_Shivinski

Everyone is always so focused on features features features. But no amount of features will make an MMORPG fun. Convenience and quality of life improvements will only get a game so far. But eventually the novelty of party finders, and easy questing will get old. Personally, I think they already have; many people just haven't realized it yet. Over time, people talk more and more about MMOs becoming boring and repetitive. Yet, they still want each new MMO they go to to be the same as the last 5 they played, because it's familiar, and predictable. The "most efficient path to end game" is easily determined. They don't have to learn anything new, or adapt to anything different. But they're also not getting anything new. It's the same old in a different skin, with a different gimmick or two tacked on. And that/those gimmicks make that MMO "the best on the market!", until the novelty wears off, and suddenly, it's more of the same. Because of all the focus on mashing a bunch of features into a game, the world of the game takes a backseat. We get small, instanced, bland, and quite frankly uninspired "zones" to quest through in a linear fashion. Yep. Worlds are, for the most part, just backdrops now. With the exception of GW2, whose world design actually does challenge and does provide off-the-beaten-path places to discover, I've not seen a MMORPG in years whose world played a major role in the game experience. And how could they? People are able to just teleport all over the place, when they're not hanging out in cities, queued up for a dungeon, which they're also insta-teleported to and from.

Everything has become a guided tour with features galore to rush to max level and become a loot whore. That kinda rhymed :p. And I agree. Just follow the quest markers along the yellow brick leveling path.

That is what developer's don't get anymore. It's not all on the Dev's though. We as players have come to expect all these features. All we ever talk about is what features we want to see when we talk about MMORPGs. "We want a sandbox/themepark/pvp/pve/ blah blah blah" How about we ask for what made this genre so amazing in the first place. Create a world. Create amazing lore than will actually captivate our imaginations. Make vast continents for us to explore. Fill in the features where they fit within that world. Well, if they gave us those things (which I'd also like), you'd get an inevitable wave of demands for it to have a lot of teleportation and fast-travel options. And those demands would come from people who think it's cool to say their MMO has this vast world with deep, rich lore - particularly when they're debating whose MMO is better here on, and feature bullet points are the ammunition.

Of course, many won't want to actually see or experience any of this awesome world themselves. They just want to brag about it. That is, unless it rewards good enough "exploration xp", and is a valid way to level up faster, because that's all they care about. They're playing Experience Bar Online, and who ever fills theirs and gets to the end the fastest, gets to start complaining about lack of content, how bored they are, and how much the devs suck, and don't know how to make a MMO! Yeah!



Originally posted by vandal5627


LMAO totally proves my point.  And no, longer is not synonymous to difficult.  You sir, are the one that cannot grasp that concept.  Taking a year to get to max level in a game is not difficult.  It's tedious.  Sitting in one spot for hours every day just to get partial level is not difficult.  Taking an hour to run from one zone to another is not difficult.  I could go on and on.

You know, reading posts like yours really makes me wonder why I even bother trying to communicate on forums at all.

In my post, which you quoted in its entirety and, presumably, (giving you the benefit of the doubt here) read, I said this...

"Here's the thing. I keep seeing the same strawman arguments being put forth, by a lot of the same names who've been making the same argument for a long time now - even though they've already been told the flaws in their thinking.

The strawman is that older MMO gamers felt "content being longer made it more challenging". No. No, and once more for emphasis... No."

That's a direct quote. Yet, you turn around, and accuse me of saying the very opposite.

Seriously, vandal... WTF?

As for the rest of your post... Look, if you want to have a serious discussion, and you want to address what I've said honestly... without throwing around red herrings and strawmen... then great. We'll try again. If your replies are going to be the same as your last, then just don't bother. I've got better things to do.


Originally posted by vandal5627
Originally posted by madazz

What I do see... a bunch of newbies who comment on things they don't know about. Half of you don't even know what MMO means. You guys didn't play the original games. You didn't know how much variety they offered. Today's games typically have less some how. All these "new" things, but they still have less. But hey, how would you know? You aren't a "vet". Enjoy your uninformed opinions.

Oh please, there are plenty of people that played those old games.  They just don't agree with the total exxaggeration from a small niche of people of how good the good old days were.  Opinions are opinions, people like you need to stop harping about how your opinion of good is better than others.

And who are you, exactly, to dismiss others memories or experiences as "exaggeration"? Why? Because you don't agree, so therefor, they couldn't have enjoyed themselves that much, and they must be exaggerating?

You don't know what others remember, nor how they remember it. So, you really aught to stop making comments that presume you do.

I did enjoy the slower progression of older MMORPGs. I did enjoy the slower leveling.  I did feel it was the golden age of the genre.

Here's the thing. I keep seeing the same strawman arguments being put forth, by a lot of the same names who've been making the same argument for a long time now - even though they've already been told the flaws in their thinking.

The strawman is that older MMO gamers felt "content being longer made it more challenging". No. No, and once more for emphasis... No.

For one, more challenging content is going to take longer by virtue of being more challenging. The more challenging it is, the longer it's going to take to complete. Something tha'ts easy takes very little time to finish. Something that's more difficult takes longer. I don't know why this is such a difficult concept to grasp for some of you. It's pretty self-evident. and applies in just about any situation.

For another, people are projecting their own biases toward newer MMOs onto older games. You have to realize, generally speaking, people weened on older MMOs did not gauge their enjoyment of a game on "how quickly they could finish content". It was not "all about getting to the end game". It was all about getting together with others and doing something fun for an hour or 4, whatever the activity happened to be. "The Real Game" didn't start at level cap. It started at level 1, and included everything the game offered... not just the stuff that got you to level cap the most efficiently. 

We were not on a narrow race-track to some finish line. We were in a virtual world, with tons of things to do.

Old-school gamers were, almost literally, all about the journey, not the destination. You'd reach the destination in time. The more important thing was to have fun along the way.

These days, people tend to gauge their enjoyment by how quickly they can level. Those days, people gauged fun by the encounters and experiences they had while logged in, whatever it was they were doing in that time.

In short... If you are looking back on older MMOs through the lens of the typical modern MMO gamer, then you are completely missing the point.

Now, what would be so much nicer - not to mention intellectually honest - is if, rather than trying to tell us why we liked the old-school MMOs, if you'd simply ask us. There are people on these forums who are quite capable of explaining themselves very well. They can give you examples. They can give you explanations. The thing is... you also have to be willing to set your own biases and prejudices and misconceptions aside, open your mind and actually read and comprehend what they are telling you. If you read what they're saying, and all you're thinking is "Nope. Nope. They just thought longer content made it more challenging", then  you've completely missed the point.


Originally posted by danwest58
Originally posted by Hyanmen
Originally posted by askdaboss

It really doesn't matter that P2P "works" as long as the F2P/B2P + cash shop models gives the developer prospective extra bucks, then they will go for it because it is the *best* model.

This isn't even true. F2P/B2P + cash shop models gives the investors more money faster. Most MMOs are financed by investors. Investors don't want to wait for their ROI. P2P + cash shop models on the other hand gives a steady cash cow for in-house investors. In-house financed MMOs are not popular any more, but it doesn't change the fact a long-term steady profit can be better financially than a short-term financial success, especially for the devs (who have very little say when investors are involved). It is only the best model for investors, not the players nor the devs.

100% this.


It's so disappointing to see how many people believe F2P and, especially, Cash Shops exist for the benefit of the players.

Does it help that a lot of people seem to like being able to throw their money at a game to obtain/achieve things, rather than actually playing it? I suppose so, though I don't get it. When I decide I want to play a game.. I want to play it.

But then, that's been the case for a long time, now, going back to Ultima Online, and probably longer. People have been engaged in RMT, buying and selling in-game items, characters, items, services, etc. through eBay and other places.

And for well over a decade, developers fought it because they saw the negative impact it could have on the game. It's probably not coincidence that only after WoW blew up and started attracting more investors and companies to make MMOs, that there was a change in attitude about RMT, and suddenly companies started looking for ways to embrace it for themselves... ie.  They saw RMT as a way to make even more money, without expending any additional effort, and set about trying to tap into it. The result is Cash Shops.

They've done a wonderful job of getting their marketing and PR folks out into the field, arguing how Cash Shops are actually good, making it sound like it's a benefit to the player to replace a "restricting $15 monthly fee", with a cash shop where they could spend, literally 50 times that... but that's okay... because the game is free!

And people, lacking in the ability to look at things critically, as many are, bought right into it.

It's to the point now where people will mock pro-sub players for paying $15 a month to play a game... but then happily brag about how they spent several times that on cash-shop items (which would have been obtained in-game, and still insist they have the better deal.

Because logic!


Originally posted by Azaron_Nightblade
Originally posted by Malabooga
Originally posted by Azaron_Nightblade
Originally posted by danwest58

Subscription MMOs can Survive when publishers and investors sink $100+ Million into an MMO.  Its just too much dam money you will never get the investment out of an MMO unless you have a Cash shop.  Once you go F2P/B2P you have to figure out what players are willing to spend endlessly on in a cash shop so they make money.

Actually... not even that seems to do it.

SWTOR, ESO and Wildstar are all in that budget range, yet staying sub only games didn't cut it for them.

Of the recent big budget games only FFXIV is still holding the sub only flag high. So yeah, you're right - if that one decides to convert then sub only games are pretty much completely done for.

FFXIV needed a cash shop to help out, so its not sub only.

Ah, good point. I didn't actually know that it had one.

And WoW has one these days too. And EvE has the whole Plex thing or whatever it's called to allow big spenders to pump more money into the game.

Yep, the classic sub model is dead alright.

FFXIV did not need a cash shop.

ARR has been performing well above SE's own expectations for it, pretty much right out of the gate,  has remained highly successful since. This has been well-known for a while now... notwithstanding the claims of  people who prefer to live in willful ignorance.

A long time ago, it was asked in an interview if ARR would sell in-game items. Yoshi-P's answer was that there were no plans for one, but if players showed enough interest that they would consider it. 

I can't find the specific interview I'm thinking of now (it may have been during one of the early Q&As,when I think about it), but I did find another where he covers the same subject...

This is from an interview in March, 2014...

"Famitsu then asks Yoshida whether, if there’s demand from players to sell them items [in Final Fantasy XIV], he would do it.


“If it won’t have an effect on the game’s balance, and the demand is there, and we can deliver such items, then sure, I believe we’d sell them,” answers Yoshida. When asked about selling items that could change a character’s appearance, Yoshida also says that he believes that would be fine to sell.

Famitsu concludes the F2P talk by asking when Yoshida made up his mind on the subject of selling purchasable items.

“The demand from players [for them] are really high…” he replies.

“Even for one of the question items for our next Letter from the Producer, there was a question that asks ‘when will we be able to start buying items?’ and it had about 400 thumbs ups on it. I felt that the times sure have changed.”"

Original article here.

So there you have it... From the Producer/Director himself... If the demand was there, and it was feasible, that yes, they would sell in-game items, as there was a high demand for them by the players. 

At no point did he ever state that it was SE's intention to do it themselves. In fact, even when they announced the beginning of in-game sales, he put a lot of emphasis on "no pay to win". So he's clearly aware of what the implications are of a cash shop, and is wary of overstepping that line.

And really, if you're running a business where you're already getting money for your product, and people are asking you for a way to allow them to spend more... are you going to turn them down?

Now, I know there are people in this thread who will say "You really believe SE wasn't planning on doing that anyway? Dur hur?". My answer to that is, I don't know. I don't work for SE, and I've never been in on those discussions. What I do know is that - as he's done with many other aspects of the game - Yoshi-P made a statement about the game, and his intentions for it... and then later followed through. What I do know is, that I'm going to take the word of the guy putting in the hours to develop the game, over the uninformed cynicism of someone on a message forum.

If there'd been a major backlash, or a high amount of resistance to the idea of selling in-game items, I doubt we'd even be discussing it right now, because it likely wouldn't exist.  Remember, SE is keen on not pissing off their players this time around.



Originally posted by General-Zod
People need to start using the "Search" field instead of opening the 100th discussion thread about something that's already been explained to death.

Start a new thread about a previously discussed topic, you're bitched at for starting redundant threads.

Search for an existing, older thread on a topic to add to, you're bitched at for necro-posting.

It's one or the other around here. Either way, you're gonna get bitched at by someone, whom had the choice to simply not click on the thread link in the first place.

Originally posted by Br3akingDawn
Originally posted by Viper482

The problem with this game is it forces you to run dungeons to get through the main storyline, if you are dps you can be in the queue for a very long time. Not only that, but while in the queue you cannot have your battle pet out to level because it considers you in a group (dumbest "feature" ever in an MMO).

So basically if you are not already 50 roll a tank or forget it. Oh, and if you roll a tank you better know every dungeon prior to running it, this community is terrible toward tanks.

Good luck with your game, the only people who will ever likely touch it again are people ready for this expansion. Yes author, I disagree 3 months is enough for a casual returning player to get ready for this.


Using the pet is an option, they do not force you to use a pet, they dont even need to make a pet feature but they did so you can have a choice to help you on your journey cause you cannot solo like every other mmo out there... oh and it takes around 2 days to get to 50 with leves and some dungeon runs.... and maybe some fates. so.. 3 months? thats plenty of time to catch up. now getting your Zeta.. thats a whole another story.

His point is that you can't queue up for a dungeon with a Chocobo out, as it considers you to be in a party, and you can't join a party if you're already in one.

So, if you're in a long queue, but want to continue questing, you can't have your chocobo out at the same time. You have to be solo to queue up.

It's a valid point, and I always found that annoying as well.

They could just as well have it where the chocobo is automatically de-spawned upon entering a dungeon, and either have it respawn when you're done with the dungeon, or require you to respawn it yourself, as you'd have to anyway.

It's a quality of life thing, to be sure, and I couldn't imagine why Yoshi-P would be opposed to such a suggestion, as he seems to be big on making things "less stressful" for the player - and he has a pretty broad definition of what "stressful" is.



Folks... come on. Some of you are being rather disingenuous.

I'm a fan of XIV, love the game and have had a lot of fun playing it. So, by no stretch am I a "hater" or whatever.

But some of the people in this thread are trying real hard to downplay the asshattery that takes place in XIV. I see some saying "no one said there aren't any jerks in the game", as a kind of "weasel word" tactic, but come on. Doing that is nothing more than giving one's self an easy "out" when challenged, because they know what they're saying isn't true.

There have been threads upon threads, on here, on the official forums, even on reddit, of people sharing horror stories of their treatment by other players, in dungeons, in world content, etc. etc. People have come right out and proudly declared themselves as being the very a-holes others are describing. I've experienced it more times than I'd like to admit, both personally, and through seeing others being rudely treated.

There's a lot of elitism in this game. There's a lot of obnoxious a-holes who wouldn't know how to behave decently if you gave them step-by-step instructions.

I took a long break from the game after a series of nasty encounters with such people, the final straw being 2 people right in my own FC, on Ventrilo. I'd been trying to get help with Turn 5 of BC, and was very swiftly talked down to, and told that they wouldn't waste their time with training me how to do turn 5, because they don't want to babysit anyone. But that they'd sell me a run if I could cough up a few million gil. This was FC mates, mind you. On Vent. I wasn't asking for a hand-out, and I wanted to earn the win myself. I just needed some help in doing so.. you know... like everyone else needed help getting through it. But no, for that, I was belittled by a pair of elitist pricks.

I've been in multiple runs of end-game content where people left because new players didn't already know exactly how the dungeon went, and exactly what to do - and we're talking storyline dungeons, where you are told there are new players in the group. The folks unleashed a swift barrage of insults to the "shitty noob", among other things, and then dropped out.

I've seen shitty behavior quite often even in the lower level dungeons, when vets are queuing up for "low level roulette", and just want to race through it... bitching at new players who, heaven forbid, haven't done it 100 times like they have.

Chat blows up fairly regularly into BS arguments over stupid crap, with people being jerks to each other.

It's calmed down over time, but for a while, ARR's community was the most toxic I'd ever personally encountered in any MMO,  including the go-to favorite for "bad communities", WoW.

So again... XIV itself is a great game. Its community can be nice, and for the most part, is. But there is definitely a significant % of assholes running around in-game as well, of the trolling type, of the anti-social type, of the condescending elitist type, of the "just plain miserable jerk" type.

Perhaps you don't notice it as much. Perhaps you haven't personally experienced it as much... and that's great. You've been lucky. But do not attempt to argue that it isn't there, or that no one else has, or will, experience it.

It doesn't matter that "other games might be worse", or "all games have their bad apples". You don't excuse bad behavior by pointing to equally bad behavior. A significant portion of FFXIV's community is toxic, and it absolutely is an issue when you're on the receiving end, or when such behavior is disrupting what could otherwise be a good time.

I understand there's this knee-jerk reaction where people want to defend the game they're playing, but the degree to which some are trying to downplay the toxic element in FFXIV's community is just plain dishonest.

Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

I knew it before I clicked this "thread" (not sure it deserves the name), but as usual, people tend to confuse "failed game" with "a game I didn't like but which is still a massive success".

I think you hopped on your high horse a bit too quickly there, Jean-Luc.
The thread isn't asking "top 3 games which failed". It's asking "top 3 games that didn't live up to their hype", hence "hype fail mmos". SWTOR definitely failed to live up to its hype, as did Rift, as did Warhammer Online, etc.
And anyway, even going by your point, you're still off-base with  your response, considering many of the MMOs listed never became a massive success and, in fact, several were ultimately taken offline. Some that are still running could hardly be called "a massive success".


Anyway, my list would be...

1. FFXIV 1.0. Though it had shaped up into a much better game by the end, with version 1.23, it was an unmitigated disaster, that failed to live up to anything, really. I was so disappointed when I finally got to play it, after being so excited for it.

2. Warhammer Online. I was really excited about this one, as I'm a fan (not hardcore, but a fan) of the Warhammer universe, and love the humor of it all, etc.

3. Horizons. The game failed to live up to the hype and expectations before it was even launched, as so much of it was gutted. If the game released per the original design, and other things went better than they did, it could have been awesome.

Originally posted by Alber_gamer
Originally posted by Pratt2112
Originally posted by Shadanwolf

I'm bitter. I feel I was misled(to state it nicely). ESO created expectations It failed to meet and I don't think it was unplanned. I stopped playing the game as soon as buy to play was announced. It was clear...for me...what this game was and was not.


Looks to me like you set your own expectations. You saw Matt Firor and assumed ESO would turn out a certain way with his involvement. You played Skyrim and assumed ESO would turn out a certain way based on that.

You created this "ideal dream game" in  your head, which happens to have not been the actual game the developers were making.

It sucks, but it's not their fault. They weren't  trying to create the game Shadanwolf wanted.

So, if you're disappointed, or "bitter", because it's not what you hoped it would be, then that's understandable. But to try and shift the blame for your own self-induced expectations on the game, or its developers is just plain dishonest. Zeni didn't give you those expectations... you created them yourself.

How about taking personal responsibility for your own misjudgment, huh?


Or we could blame sites like this that build unrealistic, inflated hype with dishonest reviews like the one that heads this thread.

You know, you really aught to work on that close-mindedness.

Not agreeing with a review does not make it "inflated" or "dishonest". It makes you intolerant of a differing opinion.

The review actually reflects the opinions/experiences of many people who are playing the game, both those who've played all along, and those who've come back.

If you can't deal with that... well... that's too bad. Maybe someday, when you've taken the blinders off, you'll learn to be more tolerant of differing points-of-view. 'til then, guess you'll have to deal with it.

Or, you know... go on to forums like these and whine about it.


Originally posted by Antiquated

Great business model, though.

"Let's try to get 'em back, after they've already left."

Yes. When a game is not what people expected/enjoyed over a year earlier, in beta.. and major changes/improvements have been made in the interim, offering people the opportunity to come back and see how it is now is actually a wonderful business model.

As it stands, people who played previously and didn't enjoy it have been coming back to check it out again, and are now enjoying it. Difference is, people in Beta didn't necessarily buy the game, and so this is a way for them to check it out without having to spend anything to do so. Again, sounds like a wonderful business model to me.

And hey... look how well it worked for SE with ARR. They did the exact same thing. Game failed on its original launch, so they invited back people to check out the new game, to give it a try, kick the tires, and see if it's something they could now enjoy.

Your cynicism is completely unwarranted.

Originally posted by Shadanwolf

I'm bitter. I feel I was misled(to state it nicely). ESO created expectations It failed to meet and I don't think it was unplanned. I stopped playing the game as soon as buy to play was announced. It was clear...for me...what this game was and was not.


Looks to me like you set your own expectations. You saw Matt Firor and assumed ESO would turn out a certain way with his involvement. You played Skyrim and assumed ESO would turn out a certain way based on that.

You created this "ideal dream game" in  your head, which happens to have not been the actual game the developers were making.

It sucks, but it's not their fault. They weren't  trying to create the game Shadanwolf wanted.

So, if you're disappointed, or "bitter", because it's not what you hoped it would be, then that's understandable. But to try and shift the blame for your own self-induced expectations on the game, or its developers is just plain dishonest. Zeni didn't give you those expectations... you created them yourself.

How about taking personal responsibility for your own misjudgment, huh?

Originally posted by trash656
10x better? 8.5? Are you serious? Remind me not to ever listen to the current reviewers here at That is over exaggerating it a bit don't you think? I'm playing it right now and what they have in now is what they should have had in beta. In their opinion, it's 10x better. Why is that a problem for you? As for it being what they should have had in beta... you know, I can't give these arguments much weight, because no matter what they add, and when they add it, someone's going to say "they should have had this at launch!". The point remains, the game has grown and improved dramatically since beta/launch. Skyrim and Oblivion still have more features then what ESO has and this is suppose to be an "MMORPG" They still haven't finished the entire crime system which I might add the single player games all had already. Plus they are still working on adding in the rest of the factions yet as well. So Until the crime system is done. Player Housing if Done. The Dark Brotherhood and the Thieves Guild is in I would say its an even 8.0.  So, all the ranting and histrionics in your post is over a .5 point difference in score? Seriously?

Do I even need too mention the game runs with the frigging Hero Engine? Not that can be changed now but it really boggles my mind how out of touch zenimax was when they developed this game. I mean hello MCFLY anyone home??? *knock Knock Knock!* Well, two things here.

1) It doesn't run on the HERO Engine. It's running on a custom engine they developed in-house. They prototyped on the HERO Engine. The final game is their own tech. Seriously, 5 minutes on Google - if that - would yield that information.

2) Even if it was still running on HERO Engine... So what? The game runs smoothly and looks great. I'm sure this is a case of clinging to "but SWTOR!"... but seriously... You do understand that how a game comes out has less to do with the tech used, than it does the skill of those using it, right?

A lot of the features they had in release they removed because they broke immersion allowing players to group up and quest together. Plus they did a half arsed job of doing the smallest dungeons ever seen in a MMORPG. I did one dungeon so fast with a group I think I broke a new record of 5 mins. The quest dungeon zones are also half assed done, even though they stated they made them bigger. They haven't. They lied. There is bigger dungeons in Skyrim then ESO. Gotta say... for someone who started off their post accusing of exaggerating... you sure do lay on the hyperbole rather thick, yourself.

ESO has a long long way to go still until it can even compare to what's on the market right now. And that's saying a lot because most of the MMORPG's out now are absolutely simplistic and down right dreadful and boring to play. ESO is "ok" but it isn't what you are claiming it is in this article. There's this word, "opinion". You should look it up.


Originally posted by Iselin

Originally posted by tixylix

It isn't an Elder Scrolls game, that is my problem... like there is no open sandbox world, it is totally linear and all the quests are just boring MMO quests. 

It depends on what you think makes one game like another. Just by virtue of it not being a single player game you could say it's not an ES game. Or by virtue of it not being Skyrim online you could say it too.

But I've played every ES game since Arena, 21 years ago... and they've all changed in minor and major ways.And everything about ESO feels like an ES game to me... the lore, races and the feel are ES through and through. It IS linear in some ways but also much less linear than the typical themepark. Other than the main story quests that are level-triggered, you can go off in whatever direction you want and either do or don't do whatever quests you find along the way. I don't even play it by quest hub: I go off looking for Skyshards and do side quests, dolmens and world bosses I find along the way, pick the locks of chests I find and harvest whatever resources I find to feed to my crafter alts... I train skills from my class and non-class skills and try different combinations for different styles... I DPS, heal and even tank with my Sorc... and you can do the same with any class by just using different gear and skill load-outs...

Yeah it's not a "true sandbox" with open world ganking and harsh death penalties and zero quests... I wouldn't play it if it was. But it sure as hell is an ES game.

Wonderfully stated, Iselin. My playstyle is actually rather close to yours - right down to playing a Sorcerer... though I haven't tried the "tanking" thing yet.

I can see how one could play it in a linear manner if they chose, as the main story does follow a path (as it should), and the game will send you off to a new area to continue it. So,  yes, you absolutely could play it as a typical linear themepark - but that's the major difference. Unlike most other MMORPGs, you have a choice to play it that way or not in ESO.

What Iselin describes is a totally viable way to play, with the whole sorta "bouncing around, doing whatever" approach. I finished up Stonefalls that way, just sorta bouncing around. I actually had to go back and finish some of the earlier quests, right outside Davon's Watch, because I somehow missed them when I first got there. Yet missing them didn't prohibit me from moving on to do other things at all.

I decided to venture into The Rift, at the ripe old "age" of 27, with level 40 mobs all around me. I was curious to see if they kept the same overall layout of Riften as in Skyrim, allowing for the 1000 years of history between them. They did, which was pretty awesome.

Point is, even as a level 27, there were quests available to me in Riften, and around the area. I could actually have given those a shot if I was suicidal enough. If I were in a total RP mode, I would have, since my character wouldn't know they were "level 27", versus "level 40" mobs. No meta allowed! But, I'm not in RP mode in this game, so I said "eh.. I'll save that for later".

Speaking of RP, and people who've said there is no roleplay in ESO. I have to beg to differ. I've seen a lot of RP so far.

For example, there was a group, outside one of the fortress areas (forget what it's called atm), but there were at least a dozen characters, and they were roleplaying out some scenario where new members were being accepted into their 'brotherhood' of sorts, comprised of werewolves. They were serious committed to it, too, as some idiot kept trying to disrupt them, and they just ignored him and kept going, without breaking character (kudos to them). I eventually sat down nearby and watched it play out for a bit. It was really cool. I love seeing other players get creative like that. Caught a screenshot of some part of it; I think this was a moment where there was a kind of ceremonial musical interlude or something.

But anyway, RP is something a player can do anywhere, at any time, if they have the imagination for it. Players who require props or special "roleplaying tools" to do so aren't very good roleplayers, IMO. That's not a problem with the game.

All that said, I'm genuinely seriously enjoying ESO, more than I have any other MMORPG since FFXI in its heyday (and that's saying a lot, considering XI is my all-time favorite of the genre). The quests are not generic "go kill 15 rats and return them to me" ordeals. Quests may require you to do that as part of them, but what sets it apart in ESO, is that's usually a minor step in a much larger quest. You have to, for example, collect "x", in order to do "y", so you can do "z"... and often times, the means by which you do the "collecting" has an interesting twist on it.

Point is, unlike in most MMOs, where kill/collect tasks are the quest - that's all you are doing - in ESO, they're a minor part of it, and it's always directly relevant to what the actual goal of the quest is. And anyway, I've yet to have to kill/collect more than maybe 8 of anything, so it's not exactly a "grind", either.

As an aside, on the topic of "grinding"... I also played Lineage 2 for several years - it was the PvP counterpart fo FFXI for me, and I loved it, in its heyday (C1 up to around Interlude were the golden times for me, especially C3). Lineage 2 was a serious grind, if you were only playing it to level. The thing is, the leveling in L2 served another purpose - it got people out into the world to interact, be it cooperatively, or competitively. It was not all about the grind. Grinding levels was a means to an end, not an end in itself. I loved the hell out of L2 back then. Can't stand it now. But anyway, back on topic...

I did a quest the other night, for example, where I had to help 3 students successfully pass their respective tests. One of them had to locate a special item, which was concealed in these chicken-like creatures. To find them, you have to use a wand on the chickens. The reaction when you use it is quite funny - let's say "feathers a-flyin'". However, you find that that task wasn't only for that specific part of the quest... It actually serves as foreshadowing of sorts, for something that will happen later in the story arc, when things take a turn for the serious.

Anyway, I honestly can't say enough good about this game. It's been a long time since I've actually enjoyed a MMORPG as much, and as consistently, as I'm enjoying ESO. I keep waiting for the moment where it all falls apart, and I realize it's not as good as it seems, but it's just not happening, and I am beginning to believe it never will, at least not for me. And yes, I say that full acknowledging that it's not a perfect game, and that it does have its issues. I don't expect "perfection". I expect "solid, engaging entertainment and fun" - and that's what ESO is delivering for me.

For me, while not a proper main series ES game (ie. it isn't Elder Scrolls VI), it captures a lot of the Elder Scrolls feel and setting for me. I feel like I'm in the Elder Scrolls universe, and there's an awesome "Morrowind" feel to it, there's this kind of pervasive "seriousness" to everything. Even when there's humor, it's tinged with a bit of darkness, and that's the feeling I always got from playing Morrowind. So, they've done an awesome job of re-capturing that for the EP in ESO.

But anyway.. I've rambled on enough lol.  Good times.

Originally posted by Zeblade

Sorry but you have to wonder if people ever played this when it was PAY TO PLAY.

Well it more dead now then ever. Ten times better.. wow have no idea what he is playing


Are you standing off in some remote corner of the world, where no one goes, facing the wall so you can't see anyone?

Because short of that, you're flat out lying, plain and simple. The game is far from dead, and there's no way you can honestly say otherwise. It's quite active. Every time I'm logged in, chat is active, there are people everywhere.. towns/cities are hopping. Bleakrock has new players all over the place.

Better question is.. what game are you playing? Assuming you're actually really playing at all.

Originally posted by Bulldoze

"SOCIAL - 7: This score is actually lower than the original review, mainly because while the Guild and AvA systems are still fantastic, there are not a lot of people using the LFG tool and most of the game’s leveling content is a solo affair. A group finder for dungeons and other content could go a long way here."

Surely people using chat to recruit players for dungeons rather than using a group finder is more social? I actually prefer the manual method of forming a group for the social reasons. Every game I've played that has a group finder has minimal social interaction, maybe the occasional "Hi" at the start

I had that exact same thought. Adding a Group Finder eliminates people's need to communicate and reach out to other players. That wouldn't improve the social aspect, it would hinder it.

I see people in chat constantly, looking for people for various content, among other things.

Let people continue actually talking. Enough with this "You never have to speak a word to anyone.. just let the game do all the sorting and arranging, and you just run through and collect your loot". This is one of the things that's been hurting community in MMORPGs in recent years. They need to reduce the amount of "automated everything", not increase or sustain it.

It's not going to kill people to communicate with fellow players once in a while.

That said, for the review overall, I agree with it pretty much. I am having a blast with ESO now; playing every night, loving the quests, the storylines, the characters, etc. It's so awesome to see/hear characters who speak like people ... saying things, and reacting to things the way you'd expect a person in their situation (however extraordinary) to.

For me, it's the first MMORPG I've played in a long time that actually deserves to have 'RPG' in its acronym.

The combat, for me, is lots of fun. I prefer mages to melee this time, around... at least for my current main character. But I do have a Nightblade fresh off of Bleakrock, whom I'm looking forward to getting into some mischief with.

For those hemming and hawing over the fact that a game they don't like got a positive review... Oh well? I'm sure you'll get over it?


Originally posted by SavageHorizon
Originally posted by Warjin

Why not just hook your computer up to a big screen download controller support mod or addon and save your self $20.00 + Xbox/PS4 network user fees?

I mean if you really want to throw money away my paypal email is please feel free : )

The only reason I see someone buying the console if you allready own a computer version is because maybe the computer you own might not be up to par, other then that I really don't see the point, the controller, big screen, voice chat can all be done on a computer, this is not 2003, so WHY?


And who gives a flying feck what you think, who are you to dictate how others spend their money.

Wow.  Overreact much?

Do you notice the question marks in his post? He's asking a question, not 'dictating'.

And even if he was trying to "dictate" something to others... So what? Would you feel obligated to go out and do as he said?

Relax. It's just a message forum.

Originally posted by rastapastor


30 hours of additional gameplay is humbug? As i recall, they said that about paing 15$ for skins or some sort fluffy stuff, not actuall meaningful content. They also said, if they do paid DLC it will be great value for money. Completly new explorable map and story content for 20 hours of gameplay and antother story worth 10 hours of gameplay, both 30 hours of additional game time for 25$ is justified. Remember, its bussines, they too have to eat and feed their kids You know. I am not a fanboy, but paying for ACUTALL content not some effin skin...EKHM, Star Citzen and its starship for 250 dollars lel.


Not to mention that recent released games even combined together, for instance The Order and BloodBorne dont have 30 hours of gameplay :).

Don't forget recent developer statement, that The Witcher 3 alone will have 200+ gameplay if we want to do most of the stuff that bad?

Yeah, what CDProjekt is doing is nothing even remotely similar to what they took a stand against.

Anyone who takes 5 minutes to do a little review of what they were arguing against, and comparing it to what they're doing with their own games, would realize that. Assuming they're intellectually honest, and not just looking for something to complain and cry "foul" about, that is.

Not to mention that I don't understand how a person can confuse DLC - what CDP is against - with full on expansions with another 30 hours of  content...which is what CDP is doing.

Have we really gotten to the point where people can't even make that simple distinction anymore?


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