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All Posts by Pratt2112

All Posts by Pratt2112

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Originally posted by scorpex-x
Originally posted by Dr_Shivinski
Originally posted by scorpex-x
Originally posted by SoloAnything Over 4 million lol vs eso switched to f2p to keep going as it failed.


You are confusing subs with accounts created (many of which are free to play accounts on the trial).

" This is NOT a current subscriber number, but rather the total number of accounts that have subscribed to the game at one point, not counting free trials." 

You're really determined to be wrong aren't you?


Not at all, if I was wrong I would gladly admit it.


Accounts created includes free trials and FFXIV v1 accounts, these numbers are not only grossly inflated but are irrelevant anyway because they are not subscriber numbers.

Yep. You're determined to be wrong.

They explain exactly what they mean right in the damn sentence, and you're here saying "Nope. They mean this" So, basically, you believe you know the basis for their info better than they do?

As for being "grossly inflated". So, I guess you have data to prove this as well, as in actual numbers, straight from SE themselves? I mean, I'm still waiting on the data for everything else you've claimed so far, and that's still forthcoming. Might want to start jotting this stuff down. The list of things you have to provide actual data for is getting lengthy. should start a Fictional Writing column, and give you one of the slots, under the "Fantasy Comedy" category.

They could call it "scorpex-x's Land of Make-Believe". Each week, you'd write a column, just making up random shit. Just you throwing out numbers and making claims without a lick of evidence to back any of it.

Originally posted by scorpex-x

500 k subs is a number quoted direct from Square Enix as of Januray of 2015, if you can find official numbers that are actually subscribers then feel free to post them.

Ahhh yes... shifting the burden of proof. The old "this is my claim! Prove me wrong!" routine.

Don't work that way. You're making the claims here, about ARR's versus ESO's subs. It's on you to back them up.

I'm not making any claims. I'm simply saying your claims are unsupported BS.

Now, had you said "as of January 15, 2015 it was "this"", while allowing for changes in the interim, you'd be in a better position.

But that's not what you said, now is it?

You've claimed - in the present tense - that ARR continues to maintain around 500k due to churn. That is a claim made of the state of the game in the present. For that claim to hold any water, you have to provide current data to back it up.

So, where's your data to back it up?

As I say no mmo gains subs in this day and age they decrease over time.

Except ESO, of course, right?

By the way, Eve Online says "Hi".

Also, first you say that ARR maintains around 500k due to churn. But now you're saying MMOs subs decrease over time... which would mean - according to your previous statement - that ARR should be *under* 500k subs, since they've been - again, according to your logic -  losing subs.

You cite data from Jan, 2015 to prove a point in your favor, only to turn around and claim old data doesn't matter when someone else does the same.

You seem to have a lot of trouble with consistency. Got a bit of cognitive dissonance going on there.

That's a common problem for people who make shit up as they go.


Originally posted by scorpex-x


This is like saying the United Kingdom is the most powerful country on the planet because it used to be.

You have the temerity to post that, after posting this only a  handful of posts back:

Originally posted by scorpex-x


Updated "January 5th 2015" from Square Enix themselves.


Square Enix tells MCV that the actual number of Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn paying subscribers sits at 500,000.


650k are the highest peak sub numbers Square have ever posted, and that was near launch.  MMO titles don't gain subs higher than launch anymore, churn rate with a steady decline is how every mmo works that isn't wow.

Oh sweet irony.

Well, since old data isn't relevant to you - and you've indicated as much yourself - I'm waiting to see your current sources, as of June 30th, 2015.

Originally posted by scorpex-x
Originally posted by Dr_Shivinski

Best Selling Video Game Franchises

Final Fantasy sales - 110 million

The Elder Scrolls sales - 17 million

You wanna try that again bud?

I'm not much of a Final Fantasy fan, but misinformation is the worst. 

A. Final Fantasy is a VASTLY more popular franchise than The Elder Scrolls, and that's fine. Not my cup of tea beyond FFXIV, but nothing to be upset about.

B. No one actually knows the subscription numbers for FFXIV, they have never released that information. The closes we have is something along the lines of 4.5 million accounts created, and the general consensus is that alot of those are gil-sellers, with the actual active user count at ~1 million. 

That is still just a guess from the community until Square actually releases the numbers.

Either way my main point here is that OP is hilariously wrong about the franchise popularity which is clearly displayed by the sales figures. Hell even my 60 year old parents know what Final Fantasy is. They thought Skyrim was a rimjob on a plane.

Compare Skyrim sales to FF13 sales.

Oh, okay. So an entire franchise's success rides on the comparison between two individual titles now?

Wow, you really do like to cherry-pick don't you?

FFXIV has NEVER gone over 650k subscribers, not even once.  It sits at around 500k subs currently since it has a high churn rate.

Please provide your source stating that it's never gone over 650k.

Please provide a source, newer than January 5th 2015, that it still sits around 500k subs.

For someone who continuously fails to back up their claims, you sure do make a lot of them.



Originally posted by mgilbrtsn

This is more about ARR and ESO and less about the franchises if we're going by the chart in the OP's opening.  The numbers on the chart only reflect that.  It's hard to say what it actually means in a larger sense.  Some of those games are likely more prone to store purchasing than internet purchasing (Particularly the kids games).  For instance, Yoshi's game is only console atm, so it's sale wouldn't be split between internet and console.

FFXIV has been on PC since 1.0's launch, and didn't come to consoles until after ARR's re-launch. It has never been only console.

Also, Scorp made the statement:

Originally posted by scorpex-x

Elder scrolls is simply a more popular franchise worldwide than Final fantasy.

Direct quote. His words.

He reiterated the same statement in a later post.

He's specifically comparing the popularity of each franchise (ie. all things FF compared to all things ES), not just one game in each franchise. And in that, he's full of shit.


Originally posted by scorpex-x

.....No it's not. I almost fell out of my chair when I read that.


Get ready to fall out out of your chair again, fall down the stairs and fly out the window then.

 I doubt anyone has any need to fear that happening.

The peak of subscribers FFXIV has ever, was 650k.  It has NEVER had sub numbers higher than that.

ESO had well over 770k subscribers.

Citations needed for both.

All I'm seeing is you throwing out numbers and conjecture asserted as fact. I see nothing to back it up.

Otherwise, that which is asserted without evidence may be dismissed without evidence.

ESO went b2p because those numbers were not good enough to sustain it, Square also has this problem but they don't approve of f2p.

Wrong and wrong.

1. FFXIV has been exceeding SE's expectations since ARR's launch, and has been performing excellently for them. HW continues to reap high praise and accolades across the board.

2. What he has said is that the subscription model is the most ideal for FFXIV as of right now, and there are a number of reasons as to why they feel that way, all of which have been discussed in myriad articles and interviews, for over 2  years now.

Example 1 

Example 2

Relevant Quote: We’re not fixated with a subscription model for A Realm Reborn, but I do feel that players can be assured that their game is stable in this way. To get as many people in the world to play the game, having it available for free is an effective method. We’d need to gauge the response and the needs of the market but we could consider free-to-play.

Example 3

Relevant Quote: “Really, you can just change your choices depending on the games. If demands change, you can also just change your choice. Rather than having a backward way of thinking like ‘I’m going to change it because we’re not making profit,’ go with a more positive one like, ‘I’m going to change it to increase the number of players.’ If there’s a misconception that I’m just persisting in subscriptions, then it’s wrong.”

That's just 3 examples of him discussing F2P,  and their reasons for going with P2P... and there are many more.

Take the time to educate yourself on these matters before coming here and spewing bullshit.

  As shown by the currently incredibly low subscriber numbers for FFXI (to the point they are stopping all content additions) yet it retains and will retain a subscription.

... You're kidding me, right?

Are you so desperate to trash FFXIV and SE that you are going to bring FFXI into it as well?

FFXI is a THIRTEEN YEAR OLD GAME. It has been highly successful for SE, and was their most profitable title for a long time. Many devs would love to see their MMOs do as well as FFXI has, for as long as it has.

It still has a large and dedicated playerbase.

Yes, they have decided that after 13 successful years, they are going to conclude FFXI's storyline on a high note, and more importantly, on their terms, in a way they feel is fitting for it. After that, it will be maintained over time, with over 10 years of content for people to play through. 

Of course, they are also moving the game to a new platform, as well as creating a spin-off game. So, the FFXI universe is going to live on.

Seriously, Scorp.... WTF is wrong with you?



Originally posted by scorpex-x
Originally posted by SoloAnything
Everyone I know preordered heavensward months ago and 3 day early release for preorders proves that as queue to play was bigger then the regular release day. ESO has 1 server and looks populated FFXIV has 50 and I still get queue. Im guessing eso has 1/10th of ffxiv player base maybe less and it's a buy to play not a sub game.


When ESO still had a subscription it had more subscribers than FFXIV by a fairly large margin, as a b2p title it will have vastly more players now.  You need to understand that ESO has a mega server system with channels, final fantasy has a single server system. so number of servers is irrelevant.


ESO is a far bigger mmo, being b2p just cements that.  Elder scrolls is simply a more popular franchise worldwide than Final fantasy.

That list is for a single week, in a single region of the world, and doesn't indicate if it's for all sales, just retail, etc. That would be helpful to know from the start.

That said...

You're making an awful lot of broad assertions on the basis of such limited data. There's a lot of data showing the opposite.

For example... on, Heavensward, specifically, is in the top 20 twice. FFXIV shows up 4 times overall. ESO doesn't even make an appearance in the entire top 100. On, HW sits at #19, while ESO sits at #33.

So that's Amazon, in two major regions.

Looking at a large entertainment chain here in the US, Best Buy, we have this...

Heavensward sits at #6 out of the top 31 Best Selling games... with ARR sitting at #22.

Meanwhile, ESO isn't even on the list at all.

So... the data in that one chart, for ESO, doesn't really give the whole picture, at all.

Besides that...

1. ESO being B2P can't be ignored. Not having a subscription attached to it makes a big difference to a lot of people who, fundamentally, just do not agree with the subscription model. It's not a 1-to-1 comparison.

2. You claim that ESO had a significantly larger playerbase than XIV even when it (ESO) was still sub. Can you provide some objective and verifiable data showing this?

3. Further, saying ESO is a much larger franchise than FF is an awful big claim, and again...I would like to see some objective and verifiable data backing that up.

As it stands, you're putting an awful lot of hyperbole and PR spin on what is a pretty limited piece of data, and it makes the intent of your post seem suspect, at best - especially given your highly negative post history about this game.


Originally posted by JDis25

It really does suck. You have like 3 accounts with Square Enix and they are easily confusable,

Your FFXIV Character account which is like for the official forums and such.

This isn't exclusive to SE, nor even abnormal. Many MMOs I've played have separate logins for their forums. One, because the forum software typically has its own built-in login system, maintained in its own database, separate from the game (this is a good thing). Second, because it's better to keep that kind of info separate, for security purposes; it's suggested you use a different login for each.

Your SquareEnix store Account.

Because the MogStation is specific to FFXIV. The SquareEnix store account is general to all Square Enix products. Two different things. And again, keeping logins separate helps maintain more security; if one is compromised, the other is still safe.

Your MogStation account. Which is like a secret webpage to find unless you specifically google it. You have to jump through menus to get there from the ffxiv website.


"secret webpage", you say?

Specifically Googling, or jumping through menus?

Really? (modified to highlight the glaringly obvious MogStation logo/buttons)

That's funny, all I have to do is go to the official website, select my language (or any language for that matter), and the page in that screenshot comes right up.

Pro-Tip: A little fact-checking, before posting nonsense on a forum, goes a long way.


So, this goes to anyone who's played ARR since re-launch and has followed its progress over time, as major patches were released, etc... I suppose people coming later, when all the content was already in might sense it, too (if they do at all), but I don't think to the same degree as those who were there for the release of each patch...

Obligatory disclaimer: this is all my opinion of course. I'm just curious if others out there might be kinda getting a similar feeling.


Playing through to the (epic and heartbreaking... but hopeful) conclusion of 2.0's story, and now moving through HW's story, I kinda started thinking back over how the game has developed since its re-launch.

Thinking back, I feel like the first release, and the earlier 2.x patches/updates, felt like Yoshi-P and team kind of "finding their footing", working out what kind of game FFXIV:ARR would be; the kind of experience it would create. At a very high level, you can see that they sorta relied on a few core concepts, and worked those... such as the introduction of each primal. It was new content, but still grounded in the same overall idea, gameplay-wise. Same with how dungeons were introduced and then iterated through Hard and Extreme modes, etc. It feels, by comparison to HW, like they stayed kinda "restrained" in their scope, etc. Hopefully that makes sense (I haven't had coffee yet, so hopefully I'm not talking gibberish here lol).

Not that the game or content wasn't good or fun, it's a very fun experience. But, to me, it was definitely rough around the edges, some more than others.

As an analogy, it's kind of like a band releasing their first album... the music's good and there's definitely talent, but it's not fully "honed", yet. It might be a bit "inconsistent", with songs shifting between different styles as they try to find "their sound". By the second album, though, they've found their sound, and established their identity. Consequently, their second release could be much better, with a more established, refined sound, better songwriting, etc.

By the end of 2.55, it feels like SE found their footing; they'd found their sound, so to speak.

It's like "Okay, we've established a foundation, are familiar with the tools and technology, and know what we're doing with this game now... Now let's really dig in".

Personally, playing through Heavensward, I feel like they've elevated it to a whole new plateau. Everything.. the story, the writing, the characters, even the voice acting (which I found painful at 2.0's release), just about everything so far... It's just so freaking well put together.

Anyways... hopefully I explained that well.

So, anyone else have a similar feeling? Or not? Or am I just nuts? :p

For me, the things that make it attractive are (in no particular order of importance or "value):

1. A very, very polished experienced. Everything works/feels right. Controls are smooth, the game runs well and looks great, even on lower settings.

2. Attention to detail. There's so much of "the little things" that seem inconsequential on their own, but altogether, elevate a game and its environments from being merely a "functional  set piece" to being a "complete world". Eorzea feels like a complete world to me, even as I'm just running around in it, on my way somewhere, etc.

3. Beautiful looking game, with a wonderfully (re)designed world. Every time I pick up this game again, before long, I have a screenshots folder filling up. There are so many amazing sights that I'll just come across in my travels, that I have to stop and take screenshots.

4. Characters that are relatable, believable (flaws and all), memorable, and even likable. I won't go into spoilers, but when bad things happen to some of the characters in this game, I actually feel for them, like I would in a good movie or book.

5. Story. Wait... having just completed the 2.55 story arc.. I have to emphasize this: STORY.  OMFG... Story lol. I sat through the ending cut-scenes for 2.55 with my jaw on the floor, and I'm sure "holy shit..." was said aloud more than a few times. Seriously.. I can't emphasize this enough. I mean, there are high points and low points punctuating the entire storyline up to that point - with more than a little filler thrown in, admittedly - but man they really pulled out all the stops for that conclusion. Without saying too much (though others who've completed it should know what I mean), the way your character's journey kind of comes full circle and "ends as it began" is just brilliant.

Okay enough gushing about that lol. Seriously, though... this is SE story-telling at its best, IMO. My understanding is that HW's story continues to be epic as well.

6. Tons of things to do. Seriously, it seems very limited and simple at the beginning, and to be fair... it is. This is by design. The game is created with the idea that there's going to be a lot of people new to MMORPGs playing it, and they want to make sure those people understand the basics.

For experienced MMO players, this is going to be all very familiar and, thus possibly/probably boring. It's not going to throw much new stuff at you, and you're not going to be terribly challenged for the first 10-20 levels (that's not to say nothing interesting is happening.. it is). But stick it out. Don't worry about the mechanics and such, and just use that time to take in the world, the characters, etc. etc.

The game does open to you, little by little, and before you know it, you're going to be trying to sort through what you want to do first - unless you happen to be of the sort who only cares about "progression-focused" content - ie. raids.. in that case, your to-do list is probably a bit shorter.

7. All jobs/classes on one character. This is a great thing, IMO, because people come to know you as your character, and not just your class/job. It makes for better familiarity within the server community as well. And, it means that all achievements are tied to your character, and much of it will never have to be repeated (unless you voluntarily create an alt, of course... but you don't have to)

All in all, FFXIV:ARR is just a solid all-around MMO. And I don't mean that in a cynical, "for a themepark MMO" sense. I mean, in its own right, on its own merits. I'm not one to put weight in ad populum arguments, but I think there's something to be said for the idea that a sub-based MMO is not only surviving, but thriving in an environment that's grown mostly hostile toward P2P.  It speaks to the overall quality of the experience. Simply, a whole lot of people find it enjoyable, and worth continuing to pay for - and that's all it really takes for a P2P MMO to succeed.

Does it have things that make me scratch my head, or that I find outright annoying.. Absolutely. No question. But, for me, it's always a question of "does the good outweigh the bad, enough that I can enjoy it?". In this case, the answer for me is, absolutely yes. Without question. Of course, YMMV.



Looks like it could be some good, brainless, action-y fun. Sometimes I really like something like that after a long, grueling day at work. Helps blow off steam.


Couldn't help but get a tinge of familiarity from the cheesy one-liners, and generic "badass hero #24" voice acting.

Maybe Duke Nukem has a sister?

I'm not against the idea of this, but I am genuinely curious of something...

Why was this necessary?

Is there some lore/story related reason to make this a necessary change? Something that made this relevant to the world/lore/story of GW2?

Or is ANet doing this just to make some kind of statement? Is it out of some kind of cynicism, where they figure it'll get the game some press?

Are they riding the wave of publicity regarding Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner?

It just seems very forced and arbitrary to me; out of left field.



Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by CrazKanuk

I don't believe that what so ever. I think it's an excuse, just as any other. Suggesting that people "Just aren't ready for it" is a bit far-fetched. I think that the mentality has just changed. The demand isn't what it used to be, and I don't think people are going to just "come around". There are plenty of places that I could get an SWG fix if I really wanted. The fact that these places have server population of less than 1000, though, shows that it might be a niche, but isn't something you'd actually sink money into developing. Same goes for Pantheon. I think they began to crap their pants with their KS campaign. 

Now, if the gameplay is good, then I think you'll get fans wherever you go. I just don't think that there are as many people out there as you think who want a game about "Nothing". It's actually funny because I remember this Seinfeld episode back in the day where George had this idea for a TV show about "Nothing". It's kinda reminds me of sandbox games a bit.  

Either way, I think the way that Pantheon is going now is really the best way to do it. It's got to be more about passion than money because I just don't think the money is there the same way it once was. 

You're implying something changed.

But if you look back at the game we're discussing you'll realize we're talking about 2003's SWG.  WOW released in 2003 as a gameplay-focused game, contrasting against SWG's simulation focus.  Which game did better: WOW or SWG?

So nothing changed with players' tastes or mentality.  Players have always preferred a gameplay-focused game over a simulation. (For exactly the reason you cite: simulations often feel like "nothing".)

You're over-simplifying a bit, don't you think?

Do more people prefer gameplay focused games over simulations? Sure. I'd say that's arguably a fair bet to make, in any genre. Shooters tend to fare better than flight sims, etc. you could also point out that there's a market for people who prefer sims over gameplay-focused products. And of course, there are people who enjoy and play both equally (I'm in that camp, personally). At the end of the day, it doesn't matter - the existence of one does not disqualify the other. 

Also, there are many factors that contributed to WoW's success, as well as SWG's lesser success... and it goes beyond what style of game they were, in both cases.

That said, you're playing the WoW card to make a point? Seriously?

Comparing SWG to WoW as a way to prove people like gameplay over simulation is pretty lazy. You could prove just about any point by using WoW as your comparison. You could say "Warcraft is a more popular IP than Star Wars, because WoW's population is much bigger than SWTOR's". WoW's success has been so anomalous, and so beyond the norm, that to compare just about anything to it is pointless.

I'm sure you realize that.

Just stumbled upon this post, so pardon me for the "necro bump" :p.

I was initially interested in this one because one of the main guys behind it, Tim,  was very vocal and active in backing and talking about Pantheon. I really liked what he had to say, and he seemed to have a really good grip on what made those older MMOs special for so many who played them.

As I learned more about SoL, though, I became increasingly doubtful of some of the ideas and systems they had/have in mind (no idea if they've been adjusted since, but I doubt it).

If you read their various posts, or watch their podcast videos, Tim and co. make a lot of assumptions about exactly how people will play the game - and in very specific detail. They literally predict the exact things people will do, moment-to-moment or session-to-session.

They basically seem to assume everyone else will play the same way they do, and so are designing the game so basically, that's the only way you can play it.

What he/they seem to fail to understand (or just ignore), is that people are individuals, each  with their own agency. They're not going to adhere to this routine or script that they seem to have conjured up in their heads, simply because that's how they imagine people should or would be playing it.

Yet, the game is being built around those very assumptions/predictions. In a sense, they're setting up their own self-fulfilling prophecy, where people will play the game exactly as they imagine, or darn close, because it's designed to make sure people play it that way. And if people don't want to play exactly the way Tim and co. want them to... well, then you don't play at all. Those are your options.

I just really feel like their choices, and the assumptions they're making, are going to bite them in the ass...  if the game releases at all.

Originally posted by Horusra
Originally posted by DMKano
Originally posted by Horusra
Originally posted by Kiyoris
Originally posted by Horusra
subscription model.

There is no subscription.

None now....lets see in the future.


If you don't plan on running any MSoffice apps and just windows 10 OS as it is - there will never be a subscription for the OS you get now. People need to drop this myth. If you get msoffice business and other ms add-ons that have a yearly license cost then yes you will have to pay for that.

M$ has yet to prove they do not do everything with a dollar amount in mind.  Whether that be upfront or in the future.

They plan on making money by selling you apps via their App store, and - likely - by gatherin and selling data on you, your interests, browsing/shopping habits, etc. to marketers/advertisers. I'm sure it's not just coincidence that Windows 10 seems to have an awful lot built into it based around "knowing everything about you" - including what you look like if you use their facial recognition.

They spin it as "look at this nifty new technology that makes your life more convenient and computer navigation more effortless!" What they're really saying is "Look at all these ways we gather valuable information about you that we can sell and turn into $$$$$ for ourselves!"

They're getting a bit too "clingy" for me. I consider it intrusive, and that's why I won't be using it as my main OS any time soon.

I have nothing to "hide", and it's not paranoia... I just don't want every freaking thing I do, watch, search for or listen to to be thrown back at me in the form of "marketing!" Yes, I know someone's going to say "well you may as well get off the Internet because blah blah blah". Yes... I'm aware of that. You don't need to tell me. I still find it annoying.

It's obnoxious enough that Google has themselves wired into everything, and they do that kind of crap all the time. Everywhere I go, I'm seeing ads that happen to be related to something I'd just recently searched for, read, listened to, watched, etc.. I've read they scan emails through gmail for any "buzz words" they can capture, and turn into targeted marketing. It's fucking obnoxious. It's like the internet has become one giant "Marketing Department".

Bill Hicks (RIP), nailed it in this bit. - WARNING - very strong language. Don't click if you're easily offended by vulgarity, etc.

I'm working on learning the Control Pad with Yaw setup. Tried just basic Control Pad, but was having trouble with that. Yaw definitely helps.

Beyond that, just working through the tutorials. Been working on learning the controls and such for a few days now. I'm getting antsy to jump into the actual game :p

[mod edit]

Actually, you only need to have the preview on  your system now.

Reading the news, it looks like a clever way for MS to get people off those older OSs entirely.

Click Here

I gave this a run on my laptop last night. Came off in about 20 minutes. Put Ubuntu on, instead.

Windows wouldn't close by clicking the 'x', it would randomly not read the keyboard, and I'd get a critical error any time I tried to log out.

This is the most recent build.

Yeah, hopefully they have that sorted by the time it goes retail.

Nice looking OS, though. Very clean, and it felt pretty snappy.

For now, I'll stick ot Windows 7 on my main, and Ubuntu on my laptop. Though I'm considering Ubuntu on my main, and I can run Win7 in a virtual box.

So, I'm fairly new - okay, very new - to the Space Sim/flight genre...

Obviously, that's going to come with a learning curve in terms of learning how to control a ship, etc.

I played Oolite a bit, to get a general feel for the kind of game Elite: Dangerous is, and I really like the "open space, do what you want" sorta approach. Unfortunately, it didn't have good support for controllers, so I just used keyboard.

In this case, I want to use a gamepad (I have a flight stick,but my desk setup just is not good for it, for now).. and am going to go with a 360 gamepad.

I've looked at a few online, but am unsure which setup to go with.

Is there a setup someone could recommend (by linking, etc) that would be a good sorta "here's what you'll need to get the basics down" sorta approach? I don't mind systems-based stuff (extending/retracting landing gear, guns, UI stuff, etc) to be keyboard based.. I just want to have  smooth, intuitive feeling control over the flight/navigation controls... the things I'll be using constantly.

Basically, a good starting point to build from.

Thanks :)



Short Answer:

If designed to interact and work off each other from the beginning, and not compartmentalized into their own "space", yes, absolutely.

Long Answer:

Lineage 2 handled it beautifully, because they built a MMO with PvP/Competition at its core, and then designed everything around that.

Every activity, even PvE in some way influenced, or was influenced by PvP.

For example.. Raid bosses. Very much PvE content, yet encouraged competition/PvP as people wanted the drops they could give (e.g. so-called 'boss jewels'). This made them contested, and when one of them was up, you could almost guarantee PvP would be drawn around them. First with a race to see who could assemble enough people to take it down.. and then with inevitable PvP breaking out between rival groups, both wanting to take it down.

I remember one of the big bosses back in the day, Baium, was actually "held captive" (so to speak) on my server (Hindemith), by one of the major powers on the server. He was part of a quest chain that required you to get up to him (no easy task in itself, being at the top of a tower with 14 mob-packed floors), and stab him with this special dagger, and then get out of dodge (though most just died lol). Well, during that time, you couldn't get near him, unless you paid these people guarding him. If not, you were dropped. Eventually, the rest of the server got fed up and a group decided to deal with it... and he was eventually "released" again.

There's always been competition over the premium xp'ing areas in-game, so you could often find small skrimishes break out over them, which could then escalate into large scale PvP battles that could go on for an hour or more at a stretch as more people from each side went out to join the fray.

Back when Catacombs and Necropolises were in the game as normal content, they were part of a larger system known as "Seven Seals", and played into a rotating competition that entailed PvE content (going into them and killing mobs for "sealstones" which could then be turned into certain NPCs. There were also "festivals of darkness" which were wave-based PvE encounters, where you'd bring a group in to a room, and had to coordinate to take out waves of enemies that became progressively larger and tougher to take down. You went as long as you could, to score as many points as you could... The team with the highest score at the end of the qualifying week had a nice bonus of points given to the side they chose (Dawn or Dusk), and that could (and has) swayed the results - I'll give an example of that in a bit.

People could signup to fight for "Dawn" or "Dusk", and whoever had the most points at the end of the qualifying period would win, and receive buffs... while everyone who went with the losing side could get a debuff if they went too close to these NPCs/Creatures that showed up for a week afterward. This was entirely PvE content, but it also influenced castle sieges, as castles would receive certain buffs or debuffs depending on whether they'd gone with the winning or losing side.

So, basically.. if you were a castle defender/holder, you wanted your side (Dawn, IIRC) to win. If you were attacking, trying to take the castle away, you wanted Dusk (again, as I recall) to win. 

Now, back to the seven seals.. For a long time, it was assumed Dawn is going to win. Everyone would automatically go with Dawn, every two weeks, because the buffs were good, and ti was better to be on the winning side, to avoid the debuff, etc. It was pretty much a self-fulfilling prophecy... everyone went with Dawn because everyone went with Dawn, because everyone went with.. you get the idea.

Well, I remember one time, a large alliance (Divine, on Hindemith) totally trolled the server, by snatching up Dusk at the last minute. They'd turned in a ton of sealstones, and submitted the highest Festival of Darkness score at the last moment. So, for a week, they and anyone on their side had these nice buffs, while everyone else had a debuff.. not to mention the effects on any castle they wanted to siege.

The server was *pissed* at them for that, but really.. they'd done nothing wrong. In fact, they'd done something brilliant. They'd actually played the system exactly the way it was intended to, and basically "won the server" for that week. People took it for granted that Dawn would always win, and Divine used that against them. You better believe people kept a close eye on that stuff after that :p.

And on and on...  The whole game, literally, was comprised of content that worked off the interplay of PvP and PvE.

Seriously, L2 gets a lot of flack as a "grindy game" and being "bot infested". Both are true (though I think anyone who sees it only as a "grind" hasn't truly experienced what L2 can be - not that I don't understand it.. It can be a high wall to get past). Bot infested is absolutely true, to the extent where RMT pretty much controlled the economy in that game - especially with crafting mats - and it was freaking ridiculous; a huge failing of NCSoft.

BUT... all that notwithstanding, in terms of the game's core design, I've never, personally, played a MMO that not only managed to make PvE and PvP work in the same game, but to actually make them work off each other so well. In that way, NCSoft absolutely nailed it, and I keep waiting for another developer to do something similar. Sadly, devs keep wanting to compartmentalize each style, keeping them separate.


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