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All Posts by Pratt2112

All Posts by Pratt2112

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Originally posted by DevilSeph

Where is our SC mmo :(


Hangin' out at the Bar with Starcraft Ghost, talking about "what could've been".

Originally posted by reeereee
Originally posted by azzamasin
Originally posted by Mikeha
Originally posted by azzamasin
Originally posted by Kaelaien
Is this game all pvp/rvr?

Yea it's ZERO PvE.  What a waste of talented material.  For the record, I think the game looks remarkably bad and the animations and physics look horrendous.



So this is just a PVP game?  Another one to scratch off my list!

PvP is a niche within a niche market and to make an MMO without PvE is to remove any vestige or semblance of the genre in which it attempts to call itself.  This game should be made into a Lobby based MOBA or some other such title but to label it as an RPG is a travesty to the RPG label.

This my friends is the saddest part of bitter vet syndrome. 


It's one thing to spend hour complaining about how WoW ruined MMOs and how MMOs are dieing.


Yet when an underserved niche is finally getting their own niche game you come here and fume about how it doesn't cater more to your particular niche.

Indeed. It's an example of this strange ego-centrism that's rampant among many MMO gamers.

If a MMO in development isn't catered specifically to their tastes, then it's no good. 

Nevermind that there are others for whom it's perfect, and specifically designed... those people are irrelevant. If it's not designed specifically for "me", then it's no good.

Also love how people are in the comments section of a video, about a game that is specifically about 3-realm competitive PvP - a fact we've known since the game was first announced, and which has been reiterated many times since.... and they're complaining about a lack of PvE. /facepalm

I wonder if these people would go into a vegetarian restaurant,and then complain about the lack of steak on the menu.


Originally posted by Hariken
Originally posted by bingbongbros
The game is still boring as all hell and the justice system is pretty lame and has no actual purpose to gameplay.

Agreed it feels like a game gimmick to me. And all the dead bodies every where kills it. And i have found my pet peeve about these new mmo's. I want my banks of hotkeys in my UI. Any game with limited hotkeys i will not play anymore. I want to setup how i play my game with all the skills i earned leveling up. That's the way i want to play an mmo. ESO is catering to the Console crowd with this setup not the PC gamer.

Can you provide screenshots of the 'dead bodies everywhere'? I'm sensing exaggeration here. I see 1, maybe 2 bodies at most, at a time... and that's only if I'm on the spot when someone's killed. It's not a constant thing by any stretch.

As for bingbong's statement about the Justice System having no actual purpose to gameplay. Are you familiar with the system, how it works, and the options it gives players (and this is key) of how they would like to play the game? It has as much purpose in the game as it does in any of the other Elder Scrolls games.

A player can (try to) be that thief who acquires their goods by stealing, then selling it off to make some money. In a roleplay sense, they can get revenge on that merchant who ratted them out that one time, etc. So, maybe it holds no interest for you, but it is far from having no purpose, or just being a "gimmick".

As for banks of hot-keys... well, then I guess ESO just isn't for you. And that's fine. Nothing is for everyone. There's no law in MMO design saying "Hariken must have their banks of skills available to them at all times". There are other MMOs that do allow you to load up your interface with every button you could possibly press... Perhaps you should check one of those out?

No more so than SE did with ARR, yet you can have access to up to 8 or 9 hotbars worth of skills. And you can access them all via a gamepad.

So, no... being designed for consoles has nothing to do with ESO's skills setup. SE has proven it's possible with FFXIV, as they have with FFXI for over a decade now, incidentally. So, yes... even a MMO intended for consoles can give players access to more hotkeys/bars. It's not a limitation of "consoles". It's a design choice by Zeni of how they want the game to be played. You've established that you don't like it, and as I've already pointed out, that's fine.  Nothing is for everyone, and there are plenty of other MMOs providing you all the hotkeys you could ever want to press. Perhaps you'd be happier playing one of those.

Originally posted by Hariken
Might be good in 6 months. Its just to buggy right now. I'm sick of all the bugs and freezes then crashes to login screen. Or just the long loading screens just to get into the game. It seems like with every patch it gets more buggy. I'm all done for now.

What bugs and freezes are you referring to? I've been back in ESO for a little while now, and I've had the game freeze once, though this was after alt-tabbing in and out of game several times in a row, so it wouldn't surprise me if that had something to do with it.

As for bugs, I haven't experienced any. The game overall has been very smooth and stable for me. Just the other day, I'd noted on TS that this game plays very smoothly, just about as well as FFXIV does. In fact, it's better in some ways. There were no disagreements or responses of "oh, it's very buggy, you just haven't experienced them yet".

I'm not saying there are no bugs, nor am I calling you a liar - I have no idea what you actually experience when you play.

But when you say you're "sick of all of the bugs and freezes", it makes it sound like it's something that's happening frequently to you. As I'm not having that same experience, nor is anyone else I know of in-game (friends, guild-mates, etc), I'm wondering if there's something else going on there. I mean, we're all playing the same game, with the same code, mechanics, same game versions, etc... So, it's not like people are playing different versions of the game.

So, at the very least, the experience you're describing is not typical.

Originally posted by gervaise1

So how to avoid the game being accused of only having "150 hours" of content? Of people posting - as they did - that they had finished after 1 day and that the game offered nothing at "max level"? The answer: make people play through all three factions content. They needed a "stick" and that stick was VR. And lo they were able to say that they were giving (some) people what they had asked for. The general view however - seems to be - that VR was not what people wanted.

People were stating that they finished everything in one day?

So basically, they ignored everything but the "fastest" and "most efficient" content, and rushed through it.

There's a term for people like that: 'Content Locusts'. In this case, they also have extreme tunnel vision.

Those aren't the people developers should be seeking to satisfy, because it's impossible to do.

They're like someone in an eating contest. They're not there to enjoy the meal. They're there to shove it down their throat,  clear the tray as fast as possible, and "win the game". Except that MMORPGs aren't a "contest", and there is no "winning" one. Except, of course, in their heads.

And then they come to forums and bitch and whine about "not enough content!". Except, of course, for everything else they ignored and passed up in their mad, myopic dash to some invisible finish line.

They are the last people folks should look to for a fair and informed opinion of a game overall. They've barely played it themselves.

Originally posted by Thebeasttt

Yeah, right...

Get some new completely clueless devs, they're obvously better than those who got some things right...

You don't even need to be a gambling man to know that hiring people that might be clueless is a hell of a lot better then sticking with the people who have proven clueless for the last decade.

Comments like these always crack me up, because they demonstrate how people will say whatever sounds good to them, without taking even a second to think about it critically.


FFXI is going on 13 years now. It's still subscription based. Still has a healthy and active playerbase, especially for its age, the type of game it is, and despite some of the poor decisions made by SE (which they've since admitted, such as going too overboard with the changes in Abyssea). It still gets updates. It's still getting yet another expansion... and it's actually doing well enough to warrant a spin-off game, and a port to a different platform.


How exactly, in your mind, does all of that add up to "people who have proven clueless for the past decade"?


How do people who are "clueless" manage to build a game that went on to be SE's most profitable game. How do people who are "clueless" manage to create a game where, despite doing "everything wrong", according to its non-fans, has managed to maintain more active players - paying a subscription no less - 13 years into its service, than many newer and, supposedly, better MMOs manage to hold onto after only their first few months?


How do people, who've been clueless for the past decade, according to you, manage to create and support such an undeniably successful MMORPG for ~13 years? Do tell. I'm sure there's many MMO devs who'd love to put that knowledge to use, to help their own floundering MMOs do better.


Have some individual decisions been questionable over the years? Yep. Abyssea looms heavily in this regard (and again, SE has admitted they goofed up with that expansion). However, they have been anything but clueless to have done what they have with FFXI.

Originally posted by feztonio
People say they don't like casual but when a game such as WildStar comes out at launch with it's 'HARDCORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!' total focus nobody likes it and many people bail and they have to casual it up and it's still floundering and not going so hot.

It's not that simple, though.

That's like yelling, "Cheeseburgers are awesome! Why can't someone make a cheeseburger with lettuce, tomato, pickel and ketchup! That's all I want!".

Someone brings you a cheeseburger, and it looks exactly like what you described... only it's under-cooked, the lettuce is wilted, the tomatoes are mush, there's only one tiny pickel, and the roll is going stale.

Now, would you say "well,  that proves it! Cheeseburgers aren't that awesome!"

No, it only means that particular cheeseburger was poorly made.

Merely "fitting the description" isn't enough.

In the end, execution is what matters. And it sounds like, however good it sounded on paper, the Wildstar folks made some poor decisions in their execution.

When people call for games that are "more hardcore", they tend to hearken back to how older MMOs handled things - less hand-holding, more options, more world, less themepark. When I look at Wildstar, I can't see anything that reminds me of any of the old-school MMOs I played.





Originally posted by Wizardry

What i found in FFXIV is having a more active player base means so little because like other games it is 99% soloing until everyone in a guild logs in to do the raid content,then they either file right out or continue back soloing.

If i didn't ever play FFXI,i would most certainly be playing FFXIV.If i quit right now i am not sure if i would return to FFXIV,i am looking for more of a newer game doing things FFXI way,i am not into WOWish type game designs or tons of soloing.The problem is that games that try to create more soloing are VERY shallow game designs with terrible systems,so it will be a long shot i find a newer ffxi before i die or give up on MMORPG's.

Now, to start, I agree with you 100% that, for me, FFXI is the best MMORPG I ever played - in its prime, before Abyssea and all the changes it brought, directly and indirectly. These days, I can't stand playing it - and believe me, I've gone back several times to try. But in its heyday? Yeah.. untouchable.

That said...

The thing is, FFXIV doesn't actively discourage you from grouping up. There many opportunities to group in XIV. The difference is, you don't have SE consistently dictating to you that you must group up. They provide a degree of mandatory group content, and then provide other content that can be done solo, or in a group. And in most every case, the players benefits more from doing it in a group, than they do solo.

Hunts are best done in a group, as your reward is based on the collective contribution made by everyone. So, group play is very important.

Leve Linking requires a group, and gives increased rewards as an incentive to do so. It's also a lot more fun as a group, particularly when the difficulty is ramped up :p. I did this last night with a few people, and it was a blast.

Doing FATEs as a group is a lot of fun, arguably more enjoyable than doing them solo.

That's just 3 examples of things you can do in a group, where it's not mandatory ... but is still very beneficial and even more fun than doing it solo.

The only content in the game that's specifically solo, are regular quests, and the duties they entail. The duties, however, are setup that way to be more of a challenge to the individual. You can't even bring your chocobo in with you. And of course, there's crafting; but I don't know of anyone who's ever actually asked for group-crafting - although multiple jobs will be necessary to work together toward a common goal, especially with specializations coming in 3.0. This will be especially so with building airships, etc.

So, while XIV doesn't force grouping on you as XI did... It still has plenty of opportunities for it. It puts that decision - to group or not - in the hand of the players.






Was hoping for some better replies in this thread, to be honest. Not sure if I should be surprised to find none, or not.

Instead... we have the usual case of people completely missing, or - more likely - simply ignoring the bigger point the OP is making because "they don't agree with it". So, instead they begin picking apart individual statements, completely ignoring the bigger point being made.

One example... the idea of "all mmo devs are in it for the money". That's an example of people disingenuously nit-picking on specific wording, rather than addressing the intended point. I know exactly what the OP meant by that statement, and I'm sure many others did, too. But it's not convenient to the narrative people want to follow, so they deliberately ignore the meaning of it, and pick it apart instead.

Yes... of course all MMO devs want to make money. It's how they get to keep making MMOs, at the very least. They're businesses, after all. The difference is... what is their prime motivation for wanting the money. There's two possibilities:

- They have a dream of making an awesome MMORPG, but to do so they need to make enough money.

- They want to make lots of money, and to do so they want to make MMOs.

Each of those starting points will tend to lead to very different types of games being made, with a very different focus:

  • A MMO designed solely around the goal of "wanting to make lots of money" is going to follow the "themepark standard" of the day. It's going to try and be as "mainstream" as possible, appealing to "everyone". They're going to play it safe, do nothing too far off the "beaten path", and ultimately produce more of the cookie-cutter sameness we've been served up for a decade now.
  • A MMO being designed around a vision/dream of a group of developers, is going to implement new/different ideas  which are not commonly seen in the genre. It's going to be designed for a specific niche of players, not for "everyone". See ArtCraft with Crowfall for an example of this. Pantheon is an example of this. Project Gorgon is an example of this.

This is what the OP was referring to. Again, I'm sure people understood that, but they can't acknowledge it, because clinging to their personal narratives and biases won't allow them to. They will never acknowledge any side but the one they favor.

Moving on...

I agree, OP. They don't - or at least very rarely do - try to make MMORPGs as huge, engaging worlds to get lost and adventure in. Now everything is a mindless routine of connect the dots, follow the deliberately placed arrows and !'s and ?'s to "win the game!".

First and foremost, the 'RPG' part has been all but eliminated from most of the genre anymore. The people calling the shots on most MMOs wouldn't know a RPG if it bit them.  I'm sure they excel at reading "market data" and spreadsheets and "bottom lines", though..

Once, people welcomed getting lost in a fantasy world, because it led to unknown adventures, unexpected encounters, epic memory-making experiences, and gave players the agency to decide where they wanted to go... what they wanted to do.. and in the order that they chose, without any invisible "guide" pointing everything out to them.

Now? MMO developers go out of their way to guide players as much as they possibly can, because "getting lost in the world" is considered a bad thing, to be avoided at all costs! Why? Well, because it might require players to use some initiative, to figure something out on their own ("where do I go from here?") and, well... we don't want that now do we? What are they gonna do... rely on themselves?! Are you nuts?!

No no...  That might prevent them from getting the rewards they want!  After all, the rewards are all they're playing for!

Just tell them exactly where to go. Tell them exactly who to talk to. Tell/show them exactly where their quest objectives are. Show them exactly what they have to kill/collect. Show them exactly what their "most efficient path to the end" is. Show them exactly where an enemy's attack is going to go, so they can be sure to get out of the way. After all, it's circles and lines on the ground that matter, not the enemy itself, right?

In a genre designed around the concept of ever expanding games with no end screen... the entire point of playing... is to get to the end as fast as possible! Right? Of course it is!

Oh, and make sure they never ever have to read, or pay attention to what's going on around them. No no. Just show them where to go, so they don't have to, and let them at it. You can even replace the quest NPCs with trash cans. As long as it has a ! over it, they're good to go. There are shinies to be acquired, and the End Game is all that matters after all!

It's a sad, sad state of affairs for the genre. It's pretty much completely lost its identity at this point. There are some who want to argue it's "evolved". I have to chuckle at that. Who knew that reducing an entire genre of games from worlds for players to lose themselves adventuring in, to a series of fast-track, on-rails "follow the glowing brick road!" could be considered "evolution!".

I'd say MMOs have devolved to their current state. As the OP touches on, the genre is now designed around people who don't like MMORPGs, or anything they were about. MMOs are now designed for people who want to play a single player game, with other people around to show off their new shinies to...

Vanguard - warts and all - was definitely one of the last of a rare breed. It was a MMORPG in every sense.





Originally posted by maji

The main reason why I don't like f2p games:

The developers don't want to create the best game possible (according to their skills, team size and whatnot) to attract players. Instead, they want to create a game that makes players unhappy or annoyed, so that they play money to get stuff in the game that fixes that. Example: bank space. It takes zero effort whatsoever from the developer to increase the bank space. Yet, in many games, they artificially restrict it, to annoy players, and make them pay money to increase it. They pay money not for content, or for the developers good work, or anything like that. They just pay it to get rid of an annoyance that was on purpose put into the game to make people pay.

The only f2p game I know that is not like this is DOTA2, because all players there are equal, no matter how much they spend. 

DOTA2 is also not a MMORPG, and so doesn't have to deal with all the things a MMORPG dev does.

As for the F2P thing, you are spot on. That's exactly what they do. They design the entire game around the idea of trying to entice and encourage people to use the cash shop as much as possible..

Inventory space is one great example. Give them very limited bank space, and then throw a ton of crap at them to carry around (quest items, potions, gift boxes which produce even more items, etc) so they have to either keep emptying their bags, or constantly limit what they pick up. The idea being... they'll get annoyed enough, want to buy a bit more "time" on having to deal with inventory limits, and pay to expand it.

Another is the time to level up, etc. They will make the earlier levels fast/easy, with lots of potions and freebies thrown your way, to get you invested in the game (as a player, not monetarily necessarily), and get you used to having HP and MP pots always on hand-etc. Then, at some point, when they figure they've got ya, they start to ween you off that stuff... the potions become less frequent and/or less potent... etc. Meanwhile, the mobs become tougher to kill, and the xp slows down. Looks like a great reason to buy those XP Strength boosters from the Cash Shop! Might as well throw in some of those Cash-Shop Exclusive HP and MP potions while you're at it - they're much better than the in-game versions, you can't get them any other way, and those mobs are getting tougher!

And thus those nickels and dimes add up... especially on the consumables.

That's the whole thing... design inconvenience and speedbumps into the game... then sell the "solutions" on the cash shop.

Someone once said on here, and I can't remember who, or the exact quote, but they were spot on:

It went something like this:

"All one has to do is take a step back to see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt".

F2P/Cash Shops in a nutshell.

And that doesn't even get into the other crap they pull, like obfuscating the amount people are actually spending by hiding it behind a "cash shop currency" system... or staggering the cost of items to always fall in-between the amounts you can buy at a time... so you almost always have to buy more than you need, and almost always need more than you have.... It goes on and on.


Originally posted by Malabooga


You just prooved that old school P2P games had extreme time sinks/grinds just so players pay 15/month longer and no other reason. It uses same principle as F2P games, sorry to burst your bubble.

It was aslo much worse in old school games because there was no option to pay OR invest extreme time in it you HAD to do both.

First of all... ALL MMOs - particularly MMORPGs - have time sinks and grinds. Every last one. P2P, F2P, etc.

But here's the thing..

Complaining that a MMORPG has content designed to take time to complete is like complaining that motorcycles are made with only two wheels, and no proper windows to keep the wind out. It's completely missing the point of what a MMORPG is... and it's amazing to me that people are still making this argument, so many years on. I'd have expected folks to have figured this out by now.

MMORPGs are not, and never were, designed as "finish it and move on" affairs. There is no "finishing" a MMORPG. They are intended to be long-term hobbies. Something you play for a long time - months or even years. They are the online computer analog to the classic tabletop RPGs, where a single adventure/campaign could last months.

Keeping people engaged for the long term is the entire point of a properly designed MMORPG.

The trick is... and this is the important bit... to make the content people are doing enjoyable enough to make them feel like it's worth their time and money, to keep paying that sub fee, and coming back month after month. If they're not enjoying what they're doing... it doesn't matter how long the content is intended to take... because they ain't gonna be there playing it.

You know what happens when a MMORPG has content that isn't designed to last for a while, and that can be done in very short time? You have a MMORPG whose population has completed almost everything the game offers, and begin unsubbing from boredom within the first few months. You have a MMO whose devs are looking at "alternative revenue models" to try and keep it afloat. You know... the very thing that's happened to the majority of MMORPGs to be released in the last decade or so since WoW hit the scene and inspired every other developer to play "Me, too!".

Notice how old-school P2P MMOs never had that problem? How, so long as they were good enough to keep people interested, they ran for years and years... well over a decade in some cases... How some are still going to this day with a subscription, and doing fine? There's a reason for that. It isn't because "the content was a boring grind". Because, so long as the game offered content you enjoy... it wasn't.

And don't give me the "Well, they only survived because there weren't as many options" nonsense.

1. There were several options, each very different from the other - because back then, MMO devs strived to make their games as unique as possible.. not like today, where the idea is to make them as similar as possible. Anarchy Online, EQ1, FFXI, Lineage 1/2, AC1, DAoC, UO... beyond the shared foundation of being a "RPG", all those games were very different from each other.

2. If someone couldn't find a MMORPG they liked, there was always the option to not play one at all.  You know, play something else with multiplayer instead.

3. Most of the MMORPGs that launched back then continued on into the post-WoW world... maintaining a playerbase, and a subscription... despite the amount of "other options" having multiplied several times over. There are many people who have stuck with those games... as well as new players who have come along despite having many more options to choose from.

So, sorry to people who love to pull it out as an Ace card, but the "oh well people only played those because there weren't as many options to choose from" argument is bogus and easily debunked.

But back to the main point...

ALL MMOs are designed to last a player a long time. One of the core points of a MMORPG is that it doesn't end. There is no "You Won! The End" screen. The adventure continues for as long as the developer keeps it going, and for as long as people want to play.

If what you're doing in a MMORPG feels like a boring grind to you... that's not a sign of the game not being designed well. It's a sign that it just isn't the MMORPG for you, and you should maybe try out others and find one that's more to your liking.

And by the by... if you're seriously complaining about the grind in a P2P MMO.. Try playing through a F2P MMORPG for the long-term without buying anything from the cash shop. Then talk to me about grind. F2P MMOs are extremely grindy by design. Why? Well.. they need something to get people buying those XP potions and other "convenience" items from the cash shop!



Originally posted by Torval

You're kind of creepy digging up the past and trying to throw it in my face. You think you know it all and come across as pretty high and mighty, but you're not. How convenient for you that you get to hide behind a new account name and take pot shots at other people from the safety of your anonymity.

I don't really owe you an explanation of why I've changed, but I have. In short my feelings and perspective then isn't the way I feel and think now. I've changed.

Totally predicted this response; it's the default "go-to" reply when ever someone uses someone's own words to call them out. "Oh, you're stalking me! That's so creepy!". Only it isn't. Not at all. It's an indication that some people pay attention, and can remember what someone has said in the past". Nothing more.

Recovering posts as evidence is no more than a few Google searches - just like we do when looking up quotes from developers, etc. Yet, no one ever calls that creepy... when it's exactly the same thing.

I remember people's names, and their overall "tone" and opinions on various subjects as well. Again, it's a sign of someone actually paying attention to what they're reading.  This is actually a good thing.. considering how few people seem to actually do that, and just respond half-cocked, without even knowing what the hell they're replying to.

Like I said, I remember people's names, some more than others, and I become familiar enough with their overall arguments over time where,  if someone who has a history of consistently arguing in favor of something, suddenly starts saying things that completely contradicts that... I'm going to notice. I'm sure many around here do as well.

If you've changed your mind in the interim, then great. You're entitled to do that. But don't attack someone else and accuse them of "stalking" you simply because they saw a conflict in your statements, and were able to find previous statements that contradict them.  That reflects more poorly on you than it does on them.

Originally posted by observer
Originally posted by orbitxo

F2p has killed AAA mmos. = in a bad way-their maintnance and updates are far in between. i dont blame them with their small staff.

B2p is ok= with purchasable DLC.

Sub is best = by a long shot! with alternate models.

I disagree.  If anything, F2P saved many MMO's, and it's sustaining the genre itself.  Sorry, but WoW, FFXIV, and EvE, aren't going to keep the genre afloat much longer, especially as time goes on.

AoC, Lotro, EQ2, Swtor, Rift, Tera, Aion, etc..

All of these started off as subscription based models, then went F2P to save themselves.  MMO vets need to concede that subscription based models were always fleecing them for a monthly rate, without providing quality content.  If sub models were so great, people would've stayed around.  At least with a F2P game, you can spend your money when you want, and not be charged a flat fee.

Sounds like some serious wishful thinking going on here.

MMO vets don't need to "concede" anything. We weren't being fleeced, because we knew what we were getting, we knew exactly what it would cost us, and we knew that what we got for that payment is exactly what everyone else got. It was a level playing field (cheating notwithstanding; that's not part of the game design), and everyone had the same opportunities to do and achieve whatever they chose to do, or not to do. There was no nickel-and-dime schemes. No cash shop with a game designed around it, enticing us at every opportunity to "spend a little more".

You know what I consider "fleecing"? Saying "yes! come play our game for free!", and then designing the game with built-in speed-bumps and inconveniences,and items you know people will want... designed specifically to drive people to spend money on virtual trinkets and items "to make the experience more fun". What I find to be "fleecing", is deliberately hiding the actual cost of things behind a "cash shop currency" system, to obfuscate exactly how much is being spent on individual items over time. What I find to be "fleecing" is deliberately staggering the cost of items against the amounts of cash shop currency that can be purchased at one time, so players will almost always have to buy more coins than they need for one purchase, while being left with not enough to buy something else, requiring them to buy even more... The examples go on and on.

For over a decade, I never once even thought about how much I was spending while playing a P2P. Because I already knew. I paid $14 for the month, and wouldn't be billed again for at least another 4 weeks (or whatever). How much I had spent, or could spend, or might spend, or wondering whether that pack of heal potions, or that faster but temporary mount was worth it never even crossed my mind. I never had reason to stop and wonder "how much have I spent on this cash shop so far?" None of that crap was even a shadow of a thought in my mind.

All I had to worry about was:

"hmm... I really like that chest armor piece, should I go for it now, or wait 'til I have more time, and maybe invite a few folks along who might want it, too?" or...

"Man, I love that faster mount... but I'm still 10 levels short, and need more money to get it. Okay, I'll work on some crafting, so I can make more money and have enough to buy it by the time I'm able to ride it" or...

"Eek... these mobs are hitting hard and my HP potions just aren't quite cutting it. I need to buy some stronger ones... Let's see, my Alchemy skill isn't high enough yet to make them, so maybe I can find someone in Guild who can... otherwise I can just buy them from the Auction house"

The examples go on and on and on...

Those are my concerns in a P2P MMO. Everything is in the context of what my character is, or has in the game. How much I have in my bank account never comes into play.

There's never any concern of "hmm.. can I justify spending $10 on 1000 cash shop coins, when I only need 200 for those potions, and I already have 100..."

Because P2P is simple, straight-forward and transparent. $14 (or $15, or $10, or whatever) a month, done. I was able to just dive in and play. I didn't have to wonder if it was worth spending money in the cash shop, because the game made it available as a reward, or otherwise, by actually doing content. You know... playing the game? The whole reason you're supposedly there in the first place?

Sorry, but your assertions about us "vets" being "fleeced" by P2P is plain, flat wrong. 100%. Stop pretending to know otherwise. We understood how the P2P model works. We understood what we were paying for. We understood that once we paid our monthly sub, what we did or didn't do, or achieve, or obtain was entirely up to us. We still understand that.  Obviously, you don't.


No game is going to "keep the genre afloat". Each game succeeds, or fails, or merely limps along, on its own merit. The failure of one game has nothing to do with the success of another - and vice versa. FFXI, FFXIV, Eve,WoW and other MMOs that are still doing fine on subscriptions are doing so, and will continue to do so completely separate from what's going on around them. Several MMOs have already been doing this for years.

As has been said by numerous people now, in the industry and out, Subscriptions are a perfectly viable revenue model for those MMOs that are designed around them - and designed well.  I know people like you hate to hear that, and want to pretend that somehow P2P is some great evil to be wiped out. Well... sucks for you, I guess?


And seriously, could people please stop with these "predictions" about how P2P isn't going to last or whatever? For crying out loud... People like you have been saying this for the past several years now. You continue to be wrong. Year after year.

Or is the idea that "eventually I'll be right, and then I get to gloat!"?

I mean, if you're going to make predictions about something that "will eventually happen... somewhere down the line", then hey... I can make a prediction, too... "All MMORPGs will eventually go offline". There. Now all I have to do is wait long enough, and I'll be proven right!


Originally posted by JDis25

F2P is the future because there are just  too many options. Devs have to try to get people into their game. Sure you can have a $30 million dollar AAA MMO, but unless you can get people to buy it and subscribe for awhile in an already super competetive market, you won't make any money.

Yes, we've been hearing how "subs are dead" and "F2P is the future" for several years now. All those people were wrong, and continue to be.

It was predicted by John Smedley, an industry vet who's been around since pretty much the beginning, that SWTOR would be the last AAA MMO to release with the subscription model. He was wrong.

I suspect 5 years from now, we'll still see people proclaiming P2P as "dead" and "F2P is the future!".

Subs will continue to be profitable so long as they meet one very key requirement, which I touch upon in correcting your statement below...

Required Sub is not profitable in today's market if your game isn't well enough designed to maintain enough subscribers and remain viable.

FFXI, FFXIV, Eve, WoW, DAoC... and others I can't remember at the moment are all still going quite well with subs. Why? Because they're good enough games that offer a value deemed worth a monthly sub to an adequate number of people to support their continued development and support.

Most all MMORPGs that started as P2P but switched to F2P maintain a monthly membership option... Lineage 2 is the only one I know of that hasn't. Why do you think that is? Why would they retain the option for a revenue model so many  deem "dead" or "dying" or "not viable" (albeit entirely on the anti-P2P side, of course)?  Hint: It's not because "subs are dead".

One of the strongest... if not the strongest example which directly refutes your claim... FFXIV.

Despite a horribly failed first attempt, in a genre whose customers are famously unforgiving of failure, and there are no second chances... at a time where a successful P2P MMO is the exception, not the rule.... at a time people, like yourself, keep chanting this mantra of how "P2P can't work, and F2P is the future"... SE managed to not only successfully rebuild and re-release FFXIV they exceeded their own expectations. FFXIV continues to do quite well for SE... as a P2P MMO, in the current market. Against all odds... with a lot going against it, and very little going for it... FFXIV has succeeded wonderfully.

And before someone says "but but... FFXIV added a cash shop! They can't do it on subs alone!" Wrong. They added the cash shop because people requested it.  It's something that was touched upon back when ARR was still in development. Yoshi-P was asked if the game would have a cash shop.

Yoshi-P's response was basically that they didn't have any immediate plans to add one, but if enough people were interested, that they would certainly consider adding it. Well, people asked... and SE accomodated them. Remember... FFXIV has been doing better than they expected. Per the article I linked above, they've been making more money since ARR's launch... before adding a cash shop was even mentioned. Those facts might be inconvenient to an anti-P2P'er's narrative.. but they're the facts regardless.

So, you and those like you can post on here, declaring "required sub is not profitable in today's market!" all day long... You're wrong. Or if I'm being charitable... you're missing a huge part of the picture. It absolutely can work, and it absolutely does work.... if the game is good enough.

Now, because I know some folks on these forums likes to say "but FFXI, Eve, etc.. are old games that paid off their development already" - I'll just address that now.  It's a non-sequitur.

Older MMOs may have paid off their initial investment. The expenses don't just "disappear", though. They continue to run. They continue to receive support, updates, new content, etc. It's not like all expense of running a MMO stops once development costs are paid up. They continue to cost their developers money, and hence they must continue to earn their developers money. So yeah.. please don't waste my time with that BS.

At the very least, use your brains and think through these arguments a bit more before clicking that reply button. Make sure you're thinking through all sides of the situation... not just the side you happen to favor.


The problem I have with marketing is the sheer deceptiveness of it. It's one thing to make something you actually have sound really exciting. It's another to take something you have, and trump it up to sound like something you don't, and never intended to.

Too many developers want to serve up a plate full of blandly seasoned hamburger meat, while their marketing depts. make it sound like they're offering you the tastiest, juciest filet mignon you'll ever have.

Someone mentioned how, basically, people tend to interpret what marketing says, and can make something out to be more than it is. Partially true. People love to drink their own kool-aid, which is basically "I really want this game to be like this"....

However, the marketing dept. has a lot to do with that, as they are in control of how vague or specific their marketing is. They could control those inflated "dreams of the game that could be", if they released more specific details of "the game that actually is". Make no mistake... marketers love the idea of people imagining a game that "could be"... because the player's basically selling themselves on it. The marketers just need to keep tossing fresh wood into the fire to keep it burning. And when the game released isn't anywhere near what the players imagined, and all the outrage starts? The developers' hands are clean... after all.. they never said any of that.

Case in point... Developers who come out and say their MMO has 5,000,000 Registered Players! Sounds really impressive, right? The thing is, 'registered', does not mean 'actively playing'. All they're saying is "since our game has been available, 5,000,000 people have registered an account". That says absolutely nothing about how many are actively playing the game now - which, at the end of the day, is the number that matters. The number of "actively playing" is not going to be nearly as impressive as number of "registered players", so they find a way to use the bigger number instead.

While technically true... it's deceptive. They know and expect that people are going to interpret that number as meaning "wow... 5 million people are playing this? I gotta check it out!". After all, people do love being  a part of the latest "big thing". The player is completely wrong in believing there are 5 mil. active players... but as long as that thought came from the individual's own mind 'misinterpreting the info', and not from the developer's 'mouth'... they're in the clear.

Or, how developers - like Blizzard with WoW - have put out ads for their games that say 'FREE TO PLAY!' in huge freaking letters... and then, below it, in much tinier letters, say 'up to level 20'. Again... they're techincally being honest... But that is blatantly deceptive marketing. They are clearly trying to bury the "up to level 20" part, in hopes people won't see it.

Their goal is to get people through the door... the more the better, with the idea being that people will play, and once they hit that wall of "pay up or go home", they'll be enjoying themselves enough to take the plunge. Of course, if the player goes into the game believing the entire experience is F2P (because they missed the 'up to level 20' - exactly as Blizzard intended), and then is angry to find out it's not F2P at all... but just a limited trial... well, Blizzard's hands are clean. After all, it says 'up to level 20' right on the ad! They can't be held accountable for people not seeing the tiny "up to level 20" beneath the ginormous "FREE TO PLAY!" in their ad... 

And I won't even get into the disgusting hyperbole put out by some of these devs. I'm not talking about players who take what the developers say and then magnify it... I'm talking about the devs themselves. Some of the ridiculous crap coming from EA and Bioware ahead of SWTOR's release comes to mind.

So, I'm with the OP on this one. Marketing/PR - as it's being managed by many developers/publishers.. is absolutely harmful to the genre... to the players, and to the developers. When the number of players who are fed up with the deceptive, double-speak, "technically true, but dishonestly represented" BS hit critical mass.. you better believe the devs will start to feel it... if they haven't already.



Originally posted by Malabooga

you have account on official forums with same name.

Anyone can go check your posts on official forums, well not removed ones obviously, but regular ones will suffice.

... which really doesn't answer their question.


As for being critical on these forums...

It's very hit or miss. Some posts that are completely harmless are edited/removed, while others that are flat out trolls/flames or what-not are left alone... even right in the same thread. Posting here can be kinda like negotiating a mine field.
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by apb2011
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by apb2011

Example: Skyrim = Huge World

Skyrim = sandbox 

Skyrim isn't a sandbox.  The overwhelming majority of content is static and unchanging.  It's developer-created themepark rides for you to ride on.  Writing addons is sandbox content.  Stacking cheese wheels is sandbox.  A handful of quests which make very minor changes to the game world are....well, they're sandbox enough.  But the majority of the game is themepark content.

Remember that while most sandboxes are open world, not all open world games are sandboxes.  Sandbox means player authorship (you know, sand that you can change.)

But back on topic, what sandbox or MMORPG even has a smaller world than Skyrim?  Skyrim's world isn't all that big, and I can't think of a single MMORPG (sandbox or not) which has a smaller world.

All the Elder Scroll games are sandbox, except of Elder Scrolls Online which is 100% themepark.

Not really... Axe was pretty much spot on. There's little in TES games that resemble true sandbox games, SWG being an example of such.

Sandbox implies some form of manipulation in the hands of the player, Sandbox does not mean doing what you want, that would be non-linear/open-world design..


Ugh... Is this thread going to derail into yet another debate over what is or isn't a sandbox?

Please say it isn't...


So, I'm not playing FFXIV, and Triple Triad doesn't really interest me personally... but it's cool that they got it in finally. I know a lot of people were looking forward to it.

That said, I'm having a hell of a laugh at people implying Triple Triad is a Hearthstone copy...

Too funny.

Originally posted by Cecropia
Originally posted by Malabooga

Actually evolution is very very appropriate word.

consider humans equivalent to WoW. There are strong indications that number of speicies is vestly smaller than it was before humans appeared and they continue to dissapear, while humanity yet has to witness actual evolution and cretion of new species.

WoW wiped out almost everything that was before, and those continue to die.

On MMOs there were many WoW clones but they all withered away, they evelved in a dead end, and there are some games that evolved and brought foundation for further evolution.

And yeah, its not for you to decide where evolution goes, and it usually doesnt take already rejected stuff along for the ride.

Oh yeah, it's happened before our eyes quite a bit actually. You just never seemed to have received the heads up. Evolution is truly an awesome thing to observe.

Indeed. Not intending to derail the thread, but simply to illustrate your remark, Cecropia.. here's a link to 8 examples of evolution witnessed in action.

Awesome stuff.


Originally posted by Cecropia

'They also in their wisdom say: "Every game is an RPG now,".'

That's funny because we have a few round here that insist every game is an MMO. Are we eventually going to reach the absurd point that every game is an MMORPG? Wouldn't shock me.

"Well... in every game, you like... play a role right? -slurp-drool- And like... games have a lot of people playing them... probably -slurp-drool- at the same time even... So... yeah.. -slurp- obviously Super Mario Brothers is a MMORPG. -slurp-drool- Who says MMORPGs need all those people have to be playing together in the same room -slurp-? And maybe they have their iphones on while they play... so they are online... -slurp- It's obvious. Man you guys are dumb... -slurp-drool-"

Silliness aside...

I agree very much with the "easy to learn, difficult to master". I think maybe some people are taking the idea of "games being too hard to learn" as meaning "we have to make the entire game easier". That's not the case at all.

Axehilt gives an excellent example with Chess.  The basic gameplay of Chess could hardly be simpler - there's only a handful of rules to learn, really. But, sit down with a master level player... or even just a really good one..and then tell me if being easy to learn makes Chess at all "dumbed down".

One example of a game that's easy to learn would be the Zelda games, I think. It takes mere moments to learn all you need to know to play the game. As additional skills become necessary, the game teaches them to you, and they are, again, simple to pick up.  Yet, the challenges the game throws at you remain challenging, and it's how well you are able to apply what you've learned that determines your success with it.

Another example is the original Castlevania. It was very easy to pick up and learn. I was barely a teen when that game came out, and I was able to pick it up very easily. But man was it a difficult game to beat.

So, when I see someone - even from EA - saying "our games are too hard to learn".. I don't get the impression that they mean "we have to make our games easier overall". They're just looking to reduce the learning curve in order to get into and begin playing them.

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