I'd buy it as a hardcore gamer.  Why?

I'm non-biased, I haven't sold myself into the whole "lol nitneodoz! no games! for casual babyes!"

It's just like WoW where people created a false established general assumption of hatred.  I'll tell you what out of the three consoles, the 360 and ps3 has a bigger library in general, but the wii has some of the best, most memorable, and well... fun games!

Your completely right OP, the controller would be great for mmo gameplay.  In fact, i'd say hands down, the controller makes the wii u the -ideal- place for console mmorpgs.

Why they failed?  Because frankly, they are subpar games.

Really that's the reason.  Gamers these days don't have to settle for archaic gameplay, or clunky controls, or unresponsive abilities.

You can pack as many features in them as you want, but simply just playing online with people... ISNT ENOUGH.  You see all these games come out with interesting features and whatnot... and then you get the god awful combat.

That is why wow succeeded.  And honestly, Even the recently released popular rift, is still about on par(if not WORSE!) then WoW in terms of actual "gameplay"  It may have more interesting features and a better class mechanic, but that doesn't mean anything.

MMORPGS are still games first and foremost, and it feels like the game is the last thing made in them, which is simply unacceptable.

The answer? Combat and content.

Is the combat fun both pve and pvp? yes?

Is there enough content to not brickwall people too fast? yes?

Good game.

What happened to sandboxes?  The better question is what happened to mmorpgs.  At this point, us mmorpg fans can't be dividing ourselves up into oh... i want a sandbox, i want a pvp game... we are gonna be lucky to get another solid mmorpg that can contend.

Is anyone happy with the situation of any of the mmorpgs released since WoW?  I'm not. 

Best moment- A in game wedding to a real relationship in WoW, we didn't last long IRL, but that doesn't change the fact that in game, it was fantastic.  this was during wotlk so everyone was 80, but me and the guild I ran had the wedding in onyxia's lair(prior to her boost to a real raid boss).  We had a really nice ceremony, and then we all ran and killed onyxia in our tuxedo/dresses.  Everyone had such a good time, and it was just... nice.

Worst moment- This is a hard one....  I was running my own RO server(BAD BLADIN!) like 10 years ago. I had on average 30 players online with about 100-200 active players.  Not that bad.  But I was always active and worked with my players to make the server interesting and fun.

Well, I had a couple GM's which had a good time and well i got too close to one of them, me and her got along well, maybe too well, and I sorta flirted too much and she became way too attached to the server(and me).  And when i finally couldn't host the server anymore due to computer issues, she began to cry over msn to me, making suicide threats, and other horrible things thatd shed do to herself for me to open the server again.  I felt so bad, i caved in once, but my computer started to do the same thing again and again, and finally broke for good, I finally come back online, and i have a email from her, saying that she loved me, and that, since i had chosen to take it away from her, she was going to just give up in her life(i dont want to make her look too bad, but just so you guys don't laugh, or think shes retarded or crazy, she had some severe issues caused by her parents and "friends" that caused her to sorta retreat online, and i guess she found my server as a sanctuary, from the torture and misery she suffered from on a daily basis).  She never got on msn again, and she never responded to any emails. 

What people are failing to realize is, before WoW, sure there were other mmorpgs, but it was still different.

When a mmorpg comes out now, you can't go "oh its just released i know you played for a month and are out of content... itll get better!" or those lines, not because the other games were released better, but because they are better now.

Why would I, a player, honestly play a game that would be my style of game in a year, when i cna play a game that is my style now.

Heck even some of the "bad" mmo's that released and got bad reviews but patched up to being decent are a better game(inherently).  And it's why the mmorpg genre is going to die.  I know ill get argued with, frankly i don't care.  Can I ask you guys something, since WoW came out, there have been tons of anticipated games.  But what happened to them?  they just sorta... flittered off the radar, and the upcoming ones, which everyone says "are going to bring the genre back" are simply... the same old lines used for the last waves of releases.

At the same time we are getting a surge of SPORPG's becoming more of a trend, heck, evne wow is basically SPORPG, because the big "solo" complaint against it, is ignoring the fact that the game presents YOU as the hero.  Sure your online and other people are doing the same things, but it has a single player presentation.

It's being enhanced in upcoming games, and frankly if its successful diablo 3 will destroy most everything in terms of online play time.

Why?  because the mmorpg genre isn't new anymore, everyones experienced the mmorpg style, and while it's enjoyable, since even if your a loner, humans are social creatures.  But humans are also pack animals that tend to be self servicing within a mentally defined group of individuals.  A big example is at work, if you were working in a hospital(as i do) you'll notice that the staff seperate themselves from the patients and visitors, not just in conversations, but as well as in mentality, while not always visible.  And even more than that, the staff also seperates itself into it's own sections, such as nurses, doctors, security, but even further into maternity nurses, er nurses.  Sure bonds still exist outside it, but people place themselves mentally into the groups.

You see this in mmorpgs as well, WoW is a huge example, since guilds function the same way, you'll join a guild, but try walking down in dalaran, you'll see cool people, but in general youll walk by hundreds and hundreds of players, but you'll see someone you've never talked to in your guild in the auction house but feel a bond for him, through no association beyond being in the same guild.

This is why games which are taking gameplay as a primary concern, and then creating a system for social ties to be created and played as a player desires are going to become more mainstream.  Now just thinking of diablo 3 as a diablo 2 with better graphics may distort the picture.  The actual thing is battle.net, it is basically steam, except it works as part of the game rather than a program controlling games.  Play starcraft 2 for example.  You can go into single player and keep your online interactions.  You don't have to sacrifice social contacts for your own time to play the game at your pace.

Where am i going with this?  I'm going into the mindset of players.

Now that people have experienced mmorpgs, have mmorpgs they like, and have already altered themselves into the same mindset they share in real life, they no longer HAVE to accept the BAD THINGS.  They can get their social interaction without losing the gameplay.  They don't have to suffer bugs, server issues, lack of content, because they can get it in other games.

Can anyone honestly say that FFIV is a amazing game that is so solid in all aspects(or any single one strong enough) that it no longer has to worry about anything?  I'd laugh at that, as way too many people who were huge FFXI fans, MMO fans, have played it, and realized, this.... just isn't it.  It's not the next step in mmos, it's the same step done differently, and i've already done this step...

It's not even about the bugs, content, or anything of that sort.  It comes down to a big question mmo devs have to answer.

Is my game more FUN to play, in a % of the time played, compared to other games?  If it's not, then it's gonna fail.  And that's why releases which are stable, aren't enough.

If i have fun 30% of 10 hours of play in WoW, then a game I'm having fun 80% of the time in the same 10 hours, say DAOC, then i will obviously play daoc.  The reason people somtimes don't make the decision is, social ties, or feelings of connection toward the game itself.  But a new game doesn't have either of those. so not only does the game have to offer more fun over the same period of time, but it also has to have enough other fun, or bonds, or goals to break players from other games.

MMORPGS rely on a large player base as well, which can be a huge fault, since players don't NEED a huge playerbase, they just need... a playerbase to feel connected to in a game they enjoy.

Originally posted by twrule

That type of game would never work in MMO format because of it's nature:

The goal is to survive, so players will come up with systems to essentially ensure their survival (such as clustering into a few massive guilds, establishing recognized "safe zones" or finding tricks in the game mechanics to solve the problem.  If your entire goal is to survive rather than advance, the best you can do is sit in a place that's likely to be safe and stay there.  Hide-under-a-rock Online doesn't sound like the engaging experience you envision.  Sure you could put in incentives for people to venture out of their safe zones, but really, you'd just be doing the same repetitive tasks to that end.  And if it was open permadeath pvp, who cares because there is no advancement - if the player dies all you really gave the player was a new character with a "full stomach", ready to go hide again.  That means players would not fear death, which defeats the whole purpose of the game.

In short, you can have open pvp and permadeath only if you have a system for advancement.  It's all about what incentives you give the player.

i never said there was no advancement, just that it wouldn't be THE point of the game like  say getting the best gear or leveling to the max. Rather perhaps a system similar to UO's skill system.

The thing about hiding under a rock is that in the case of say a zombie apocolypse(again easiest to relate to).  There are plenty of reasons and ways to make the game dynamic or require player activity while still needing to move and camp.

For example a constant need for food, your character needs to eat, and say it degrades over time even while offline(but at a much slower rate, and caps at a low percentage say 10%) and you can plan out "meals" of food you own/have stored to eat while offline to keep a need to log in at a minimal.

How would you get food? finding non perishables, or by growing food through say seeds.  where do you find food? peoples houses, supermarkets, canning factories.  But each place would obviously be more/less dangerous.  Houses would probably be safer to explore in smaller(solo) groups and therefore would be more explored, and perhaps a player could "Tag" a house/building after leaving and say when the last time they went into it to loot it.  That way if it was recently looted you wouldn't want to go in, but some may not tag, or maybe even possible to remove a tag and then wait to ambush.

But say the supermarket would have a lot more risk, a higher concentration of zombies, and while possible to go in alone, it'd be really dangerous and you could get cornered easily or run out of ammo/weapons.  So you would have to go in with others, but would you want to go in with anyone? What if theres not much resources left inside, would they want to split it evenly, would they be helpful or would they run.  A big thing imho would be a lack of name/icon/identifiers.  So even when seeing a person you could not tell who they are, untill they introduced themselves, have cellphones/radio's that require charging and only work within ranges and not in certain places, have all sound(chat) coming from and near and to the player cause a sorta "attention meter" to zombies in radius.

If you've been given a name by someone(or possibly a nickname they gave you or you assigned to that person upon sight) then the further away you got the blurrier/jumbled the name got.

Have "safe zones" only be safe with player intervention, say instanced tutorial of a safe zone being destroyed and then escaping into the forest where theres a small camp(not sustainable for long term play) and then go from there.  Have player run towns where they could deny/allow access and actually allow players to sneak/break in and steal things, so perhaps you want to build fences or get a generator, or get weapons to defend, or find a good hiding spot, or even take over a building rather than build one.  The further you got from areas the safer it was but the harder it became to transport objects.  Perhaps giving all objects a realistic mass, no carrying 500 weapons and bullets, and then a mass of food, maybe pushing a cart, or driving a car, or hauling a truck or maybe even having a horse pull something, to get larger objects, materials, supplies back.  And if you wanted to have say a "bandit camp" then getting too far from town would make it harder for allegiances or security to defend you.

Just like how bandits can attack(pks) then say anti pks(security, police etc) could actually charge people for protection and set up patrol routes or guard duties, in exchange for say food or gas, or whatnot.

Theres plenty of other ways to do it and plenty of other things it would include, but that's just a basic "idea" that could make it work well.

The thought of just "cluster and survive" wouldnt really get you anywhere since the more people you have the more food youd need.

just to note i made the op in a hurry, and that i wasn't specifically talking about zombies or apocolypse but just as a general idea and it was the best way to describe it.

Basically i just want a different goal to a mmorpg besides just advancing and socializing.  I mean how many times have we all done it by now?

*edit*  and that champions mode sounds awesome  may have to resub.

The thought has always intrigued me, not in a way that people would want "hardcore open pvp permadeath" even though that may be a feature.

I'm talking about something similar to say the apocolypse or a zombie invasion.  while a big part would still be combat, the actual purpose would be something completely different.  Look at games like eve or darkfall, or even UO, the games purpose is all advancing, earn money here, earn skill points this way, etc etc.  And sure the death penalties can be harsh, that's not the games purpose.

A good example would be say imagine the sims in dead rising infinite mode, you had to eat, find shelter scavenge for parts and weapons, form alliances depend on other players get betrayed etc.  With surviving being the main aspect, with say penalties for dieing, such as a hard reset on your character.

I'm not going to outline a entire game here, i could but that's pointless, but I'm tired of seeing mmorpgs come out where it's always about advancing, or socializing, some other purpose or something you work for, even while advancing or socializing, and i think surviving would be great.

Tired of guilds who are nothing but chat mechanics.

Tired of friends who are people you meet once and at to your list if you ever get stuck on a dungeon or quest.

Tired of well just advancing.

A lot of people would call me a sandbox fan.  I am but not in the way they want it, nor in the way it is now.  To me games like oblivion etc aren't even sandboxes because it's not "do whatever whenever" it's not linear, but it's still a set amount of content to be done and when done it's done.  Even the original SWG sure you got wars and the like, but there still was a limit to how far you could go doing what you wanted to do and once you reached a certain point it was just like wow, where your play generally devolved into earning money, and then pvping.   Sure you can quote me going to cantina's and needing other professions.  Sure.  That's fine, but it's still the same routine.

Don't get me wrong it can be great fun, but it's not what i'm after.

A game where i had to worry about dieing everywhere i go, not just by players but by monsters, give them reasons to NOT KILL, and to kill.  Rather than the reason to not kill being "going red".  Where you aren't safe and you can't plan out game experience, where supplies are not infinite and can be harder to find if your unlucky.  Where things you own and use are not infinite and are not easily obtainable.  You got a gun? awesome, where are you going to get bullets?  monsters don't carry them, you aren't going to find many in most buildings, does the gun help you live? sure, but maybe using it all time isn't your best option maybe you should play riskier because you want to avoid the bigger risks.

If a game is free to play, it has to be supported either by ads or a cash shop.  It's sad but it's true.  Unless the developer lives off of box copies or sponsorships for say tournaments etc then how are they gonna pay employees? loans, mortgages? how long will those last?(don't mention indie games please, those are indie for a reason)

And for subscription based games, like let's use wow for example.

Renaming? Recustomizing? Faction switching? ignoring cost of developing the features(yes these costed money to make, they aren't free, and it's not as easy as just adding a line of code as some people would have you believe) they are things they don't want people to do on a regular basis, and as such have added a fee, why not just add a cooldown you ask? Well what if they have more than one character, how many people would switch each cooldown just because.

Server transfering. This should be obvious, same as the above, and the potential for abuse.

But what about actual in game items?  Pets, mounts.  Let's take the recent mount addition 25$ for a flying horse.  Reasons for it.

1. Cost of production, why not just add it to the game like other mounts(ignoring other mounts they put into the game right?).  Thematic reasons, who gives it, what do we have to do to make it hard to obtain, so not everyone will get one?  You have to get it modeled, skinned, animated, tested, coded, etc.  I know people who bought it, they like it, theres a market for it.  But would it have been made otherwise?

Probably not. And why not? Again.  Lack of a thematic reason.  The only people in wow who would give such a mount would be maybe the dalaran mages, and even then eh.

And does it break any gameplay mechanics?  Maybe saves a few gold on characters who need to buy mounts, it goes at speeds of mounts you already own.

Basically every single item, mount, weapon, monster, armor, weapon costs blizzard $, why? because it takes time out of a employee's schedule.  You have 3 people make a mount takes 3 days, even at minimum wage that's about 500 bucks and i bet you the people working there make a lot more than minimum wage.

A lot of people just don't understand that EVERY SINGLE THING that does not belong in the development plan, bugs, testing, all cost extra money.  Does blizzard have it in spades? probably but it's not like theres just some dude whos getting all the profit, the more blizzard makes, the more it can expand itself, the more it can fund other products.

Game stops turning as big a profit, it doesn't matter to the higher ups their profit margin won't change.  What will change is the employees and the consumers experience.  That's why i think it's rediculous when people always hope for something to toppel wow, and while ideally it would be neat to have another good game, but really it's not a great thing since it would affect the employees and players who still like it.

i wouldn't say i let a poop sock come into the equation, but when i was runing a guild last year, i let my social contacts get the better of me, and actually fell prey to a online romance.  It was great, it became too real, the real life situation was simple, I was lonely(no family, rl friends were having their own lives and romances), and well she had a kid, and just got divorced, and father was getting custody blah blah, drama happened. 

Invited her to come live with me, and when she did, we hit it off, but she was all drama'd out over leaving her kid that she actually moved up to alaska to follow her ex, because she couldn't handle not seeing her.  found out 3 months later she was staying with him, and she got kicked out because he moved his new gf in, so she went back home, and transfered to a new server probably to go try to get another person to escape with, since despite the warnings(which seemed like bitterness and jealousy at the time) she tried to do the same thing to 3 people.

So while i didn't lose anything, and it actually prompted me to get back into the dating world(where i met my ex who i still live with, and my current fiance) I still refuse to take any sort of online friendship or relationship too seriously because in real life, everyones different and relying on them to say get a place together(as roomies) or move near them(as friends) would just be a mistake since it just doesn't translate.

Originally posted by Alberel

Originally posted by japo

Quests have always been the staple of Role Playing games....whether they be table-top, single player, or MMORPGs.

They will never go away because that's what these games are all about.  Remove the questing and all you're left with is players standing in the same area farming the same mobs over and over again for XP.

In EQ players actually had to look for quests since there were no giant arrows pointing the quest givers out.  Those who were too lazy, or just didn't want to search, found a camp and farmed mobs all day.

To me.....that is a grind and that goes against what these games are.

I have a better idea....how about we get rid of XP for killing mobs and earn XP only for crafting items and for the first time your  PC completes a quest and visits an area.  No more grinding mobs and no more grinding quests.  Or ,better yet, do it the Oblivion way.  Experience is gained only by using your skills.

There's actually another option here that EQ2 managed quite well in some of its early dungeons. Despite its name, the game was never really quest driven, they were just sort of something in the background that you'd do specifically for the rewards or as was convenient, rarely for the xp.

Make a non-instanced dungeon that's non-linear and deep enough to accomodate multiple groups. Throw in a number of boss encounters all over the place that drop unique loot. Have the dungeon get progressively harder the deeper you go. Put a door/portal/something on the lowest level that allows access to an instanced encounter with an extremely hard boss (think raid tactics here but using only a single group).

There you go, no quests and no camping. People will fight their way through the dungeon and get xp from fighting the mobs on the way so that they can face the boss at the end. It worked brilliantly in EQ2 yet I've never seen its like since.

It's content like this that allows a non-quest based game to work. When someone says to scrap quests they expect there to be other content and mechanics put in place like this to accomodate for it.

Well i lost my response to this so i'll sum it up.

I love eq2 dungeons, they are a blast.  But the game itself suffered because the higher level you got, you ended up getting WAY too many buttons to press in a average encounter, and all of them did so little damage but needed to be pressed to form your rotations or keep you going, that it was bogged down.  My favorite dungeons in mmos are in eq2. But mainly the 10-30 ones, after that it sorta dulled out and by the time you were 50+ it just felt tedious, i remember playing my necromancer, and casting like 6 dots, 2 temporary pets, commanding my pet to attack, my life drains, creating hearts, nukes, aoes, and repeating it every single pull over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.  Yes you do the same thing in other games but in eq2 it just felt boring, because it was so dull and there were so many moves there was no impact from any of them except say your bigger long cooldown attacks.

coming into this thread late but my thoughts is this.

Nostalgia.  Good? Bad? Fantastic? Awesomerific? no. it's simply nostalgia.

A lot of the adventure and exploration and all that about older games was the fact that at this time it was still a new aspect, the thought of going online playing with thousands of other players was unique, fresh, interesting.  You met people there who became real friends(or enemies), and it was great. 

But besides video games the internet itself has evolved, before even logging onto games, people these days check facebook, chat on messengers, send emails, text messages, get on ventrilo etc.  That when they log into the game they already have a giant social block sitting at their computer.  When they get into the game the fact that there are other people there, is null and void, and frankly isn't that important.  The feeling the older games had, is gone, and is never coming back, at least untill we reach the plateau of say virtual reality, where the feeling of newness and freshness has reset.

That's the beginning of the death of the older games.  You see, just social things won't carry out a mmorpg anymore.  It has to have combat and gameplay to back it up.  You complain about it being too fast paced, but really, can we go back to the way it was before?  No.  Because now that theres better combat options a slow paced dull chat reliant combat system will be the downfall of a game.  Even for veterans simply because despite all the talk, still want a game that is fun to play.

Questing is both a bane and a blessing, quests are a good thing because they give you something to do besides kill x rats to level then go kill x bats to level.  Looking at older mmos such as EQ and DAoC, sure the social aspect was there, and it was fun.  But for the PvE aspect of both, it mainly involved being the role needed, then letting your tank pull mobs to the group while you killed them for a set amount of time, often times people switching out with guildies or friends for a certain amount of time while holding the camp.  Then when you finally lost your tank/healer and couldnt bring another in through your group you moved on somewhere else or disbanded.  It was a different way to play, but i think nostalgia is clouding just how fun it was.  It wasn't that much fun.  Sure it was more social throughout the entire game.  But I can't even begin to count how many times i was grinding at a camp in a older mmo with my group, in DEAD SILENCE, while the tank constantly pulled stuff to us.  Heck it was even worse in EQOA which was the same archetype as the other games, just a console version(it was really fun).

Exploration and adventure, this is really dead.  I remember back when i had to do something or look for camps or any of those sorts of things, or going by co-ordinates, it was genuinely fun.   But it was also really boring.  How much of my time was spent running around to places, looking for things.  Now theres gonna be websites with guides on which mobs are the best to grind with which group.  Where certain drops are, where npcs spawn that drop rare items.  This is really a dead thing.  Some games are even just adding it to the UI simply because it's modded in or websites do it so much that offering it as a feature to everyone is just the next step.

Then we get into activities.

Everything in mmorpgs translates into the following

Combat

Chatting

Traveling

Trading

Crafting

Gathering

EVERYTHING you do falls into this.  And they all involve enhancing your character to a point where they are stronger or richer or more important. 

Sandbox or not, your doing the same things for the same reasons.

Honestly i really REALLY REALLY enjoy forming groups and going into dungeons or group areas for no reason other than to go, for exp, drops, and just for the sake of doing it.   It's why i really was interested in vanguard(before i played it) and really enjoyed DAoC.  I remember forming a guild in DAoC where we didn't RvR but we just sorta "explored" the game world together.  It was fun, because at the time it was still all new and exciting.  These were still the new glory days of mmos.

Now when i log into games(even daoc) it doesn't even FEEL the same anymore, not because of the games themselves but because I(and the general community) all have evolved, no longer does seeing a group mob, or a giant monster still effect us the same way it used to.  No longer is running into a raid boss still as frightening or exciting.

In the beginning WoW was really similar to EQ, it was a evolution, a lot of people were against it, because it became "easier" but what people failed to grasp, was that, this was the next step.  A lot of things that people "liked" about older games were things that were limited by technology or development time, and when wow added in quests or soloability(which older games tried to add later on, when they realized it was a hit) it suddenly became "Easier" not just from difficulty, but because of ease of play, it became less of a hassle to do the same things.  And it was a hit. 

I'll say right now, that my ideal mmorpg, is not fantasy, is a sandbox, and involves player decision more than anything else.  But will it ever exist? no. 

I've posted this many many times, but heres my opinion.

Class based is better when both are done right.

Why?  Why would limiting classes be better than a free system?  You can argue that in a skill based game, you can be more unique.  This is true, but at the same time... not.  Sure you can choose what armor type you want, what weapon you want to use, and what spells you want.  But almost all of it suffers in the process, sure you get more choices, but each choice generally is very similar, and very balanced to the point of being more aesthetic than anything.  You can scream till you are blue in the face that two handed weapons+heavy armor+healing spells, is a lot different than two handed weapons+medium armor+damage spells, but in the end, you still are falling into roles.

Support

Melee

Range

Caster

Healer

you can only combine those so many ways with the same skillsets, sure people will vary, but is it really that amazing?  Look at characters in past skill based games, like say... UO.  How often did you see a character that wasn't purely built for a purpose, you can argue about choosing crafting and the like, but they ALL had alts that took care of the non combat stuff, very rarely, did you see someones active fighting character have half his skills in crafting.

You can say "but bladin, a wow paladin can be made by choosing heavy armor, two handed swords, and healing" and i'll say, no it really can't.  Paladins priests druids and shaman all heal, but none of them heal the same way, and even in the class itself they have different styles and ways to heal in different specs(mostly self healing outside of healing spec but still).  Does the paladin melee the same way as a arms warrior, or a death knight?  

They all share the same weapon types, but why don't they play the same?

The answer is, when you lock a class to a limited set of skills abilities, items, talents, you can then add MORE into that class, that makes it unique or different, or fun.  Then you can in a skill based game.  And there are tons of classes which could never be reproduced in a skill based game.  Classes such as

Necromancer- Age of Conan

Druid- World of Warcraft

Bonedancer/Necromancer/Heretic/Theologist(probably wrong name but if you played you should know it)- Dark age of camelot

Mastermind- City of Villains

Etc etc.  Theres tons of others, but these are all examples of characters that CANT exist in a skill based game, because it becomes impossible to add the full flavor/uniqueness into skill based games.

At the end of the day, you just get better/more fun/more flavorfull characters from class based games. 

PvP has never been even 20% of the main focus of this game, I don't see why players were shocked by anything.

if you haven't tried it, I think city of heroes would fit the bill exactly.

IMHO it'd work, even if it was turn based.  But the best way imho would be where you had wasd control over the trainer and whenever you got into a battle you'd throw your top ball and take control over the pokemon and battle'd like wow with individual skillbars for each pokemon.  Like having 1-4 be powers 5 be a assigned pokeball, 6 be pokemon switch menu, 7 being items(disabled in some matches) and 8 being retreat(disabled in some matches)

For me, it's just because I don't get any thrill in being set back a long amount of time for a death.  And I feel no joy in setting anyone else back.  I love FPS games, and I love the pvp in games like daoc, and wow.  I get just as much thrill as i did when i played EVE and UO.

FFA PvP with full loot requires you to have a desire to set other people back rather then just winning.  And a lot of people just don't feel it.

It's not some secret mystery thrill that people don't know about. . Some people may like the game but not be interested in that aspect.

Sooooo I've read this entire thread... and I have yet to see a fan say what makes the combat good.  Besides "you wouldn't know if you haven't played it.

I've seen the same thing as other mmos listed only phrased in a way to seem unique. Cycling injured people in and out?  That's the same thing as someone injured running back to the group while other people are constantly going in/dieing.  It's pretty basic to retreat when you are injured.  It's nothing revolutionary.

I've seen dissing on auto attack.  Really.  Do you people honestly think auto attack games are just auto attacking someone over and over.  Try being competitive in WoW arena's, if you want to hit the 2000+ brackets you have to play really well.  just "auto attacking" is a joke.  Let me ask, and I want a honest answer.  What do you do in darkfall, besides circle around someone trying to hit them from behind, or running in and out of melee range "boxing", or firing potshots from range. 

You can add more and more people to your combat, but what changes in the actual combat.

You get people who then throw to strawmans "ships and mounts and city sieges zomgozgzogzo"  Great you have other places to do combat.  Let me ask this. how does that affect the actual combat?

I want a detailed answer from a fan, what amkes darkfall combat anything special.  Targetting?  Don't make me laugh, for melee the targeting is the exact same as click and target games, you just have to face the person and be in range when you use your abilities. 

Originally posted by MindTrigger

Originally posted by Bladin

I wonder when people realize, that they don't even really want a game, but want another life.  And realize companies are making games now and not life sims.

You're gonna be waiting forever, because your game is never gonna be made, and to make matters worse.  Any game who tries to be like it, will be a joke in the genre.  Roma victor is a example of a indie attempt gone bad.  ryzom never hit a market and didn't it actually die for awhile?  Then theres darkfall, which is like a giant skating around on lawlskates.

 

I shouldn't even reply to you but what the heck, I'll help you develop your critical thinking and debate skills.

Are you aware of a very successful niche game called EVE?

Am i aware of the only space/sci fi mmo worth playing?  Yes I am.  Come back when the market has a overabundance of games in this genre then we can talk about eves success.  It's a lone wolf, not only in it's sandbox, but it's genre.  And that helps it far more then any of its features

Judging by some of the posts against MMORPG's of more depth and challenge, many of you cut your teeth on the simplified games that have been available for the past 5 years.  It's not like I am asking for something that has never been done before, because innovation is clearly too much to ask for from dev companies these days.  What I want is a return to some more depth that the older games in the genre had while keeping the good modern features and polish.  Contrary to what many of you believe, it's quite possible to play a sandbox game without giving up your life.  It just takes longer to accomplish things when you play a sandbox casually, but it is no less fun. The only people who complain about this are the ones who want to rush to level cap as fast as possible.  I don't game like that.

So we talking muds here or is there some other game besides uo, because im missing these super indepth games of the past

There is plenty of room for more complex mmorpg's, and you can still continue playing your theme parks. That is, until everyone else becomes sick of the one-dimensional theme park gameplay as well, and judging by the comments I am seeing on sites OTHER than this one, such as Reddit and Digg, more and more people are getting sick of the same regurgitated mmorpg formula every day. I personally believe the main reason the masses put up with these weak games is because they are completely unaware of what is possible in them, having not been around long enough to experience the 1st and 2nd generations of the genre. Since WoW was released, there simply hasn't been a modern, complex, AAA sandbox mmo. SWG was the last one made, and it's over 5 years old now.

I'm sick of video games in general, i only post here for the lulz now.  Why hasn't there been?  I hear this arguement coming in all the time. most blame it on wow or a change in the market which causes developers to destroy their dreams to cater to them.  What exactly has happened to games?  they've evolved, move on,  Don't get me wrong, I love the old school games as much as anyone, but plain adventure games are dieing.  As well as old rpg mechanics, when was the last time you drew a map for your rpg?  Or wrote down monster/item stats, or these various activities. What is missing from mmorpgs?

The real question is, why don't i like everything added to mmorpgs.  If wow was designed without levels.(woulda actually been easier for them to make) and then switch off quests, how is it different from UO?  Player housing?  Is that the only thing that made UO UO?  No what made UO was UO it had nothing to do with skill leveling(which wow was originally designed on btw) Neither was it the crafting or the graphics or the exploration, it was the entire game.  Same for asherons call, AC was AC, if you take the features and move em, it won't be AC.

But the modern "easy" or "linear" games actually all contain everything the "more advanced and free" games had.  Only with a lot more stuff added on.  It's kinda funny that when you take everything out of wow, you end up with a game thats eactly what people want.

 

You are probably new to the genre in the first place, so you wouldn't know first hand how it has devolved since wow invited the masses to play. I welcome the them, and they can have their games. All the rest of us want is something a bit more interesting and challenging. If you read my entire post above, you would see I am a casual gamer, and I am not looking for 'another life'. I simply refuse to believe that just because the mmorpg genre has been dumbed down by greedy non-gamer owned corporations, that someone can't come along and do something different. CCP has done it successfully with EVE, and there is room for more niche games.  What will be funny is watching all the naysayers jump on the bandwagon once a great sandbox is finally released.

 Again eve wins because of it's singularity.  If eq2 was the only fantasy mmo out there, i could easily point to that and say "look fantasy does just fine too".

Eve simply doesn't have any contendors.  But let me ask you this. What do you do in eve.

Earn Isk

Spend ISK

Earn ISK

Spend ISK

That's it.  Every single thing you do in the game revolves around these 2 aspects of the game.  All non combat activitiy is to earn isk.  All combat activity is a way to possibly earn isk, but also a way to spend isk(losing ships) to give oyu a need to earn more isk.  

How is this any different then a themeparks style of kill monsters, earn money/items, kill monsters, earn money/items. The arguement that will come to your mind, is you are free to do it however you want in EVE.

But this is simply blind logic.  You are still bound by the laws of the developer.  Supply and demand are both controlled by the developers, they are the ones that set the value of the market and the economy, if a item was really rarer then it should be, the price would go up and and the developers would change it if that wasn't their intention.

You still are being controlled and guided, your free market was all designed and planned by a bunch of guys sitting in cubicles, just like my content was planned.  Every single way you can earn money was planned, just like every monster i kill was planned.  What are you going to do, choose to do something completely different?  You can't because that doesn't exist in the game.  You never "HAVE" to do anything, well i never had to do anything in wow, i never had to quest, i never had to go certain zones, I could, and I could go to higher zones and die.  but does not being able to go winterspring at level 1 really affect me?  Not really no.  I'll go there eventually, your not going to start playing a sandbox, and immediately run 10000000 miles from town.

It's the illusion that you "could if you wanted to"  That you desire. 

I'll say it.  IF you take WoW

Remove quests

Remove level scaling(but keep skilling up)

Add back in spell skills

Add skill/spells to skill ranks

Allow everyone to access the skill lines.

remove talents

remove quests

remove instances

remove gear beyond white

remove 70-80% of the monster population.

And you get pretty much UO.  Isn't it kinda odd, that the only thing added to the game was small minor adjustments, but rather stripping out a ton of stuff actually made it like UO?

Frankly I've been playing mmorpgs for way too long and i look at it from a more cynical perspective.  I said it before in a darkfall thread.

"Who cares if i own this land"  "Who cares if our guild has a town"  "Who cares if i have a ton of money"  It's just not important.

I personally want to capture the feelings i got when i played VTM:B for the first time in mmorpg form.  And thats the feeling of being engrossed in the world and its storyline  with it's atmosphere and the like.  But it's more then just a sandbox, in fact its probably the exact opposite of a sandbox.  I really don't know what I want in a mmorpg, but i know its not UO, and I know its WoW/EQ.