Originally posted by ChloroCat

 I've started to think that FTP will be the end of us old time mmo gamers. Look at the crap that has been released in the last year or so. The bugs..the hacking..the complete collapse of markets. If we want mmo's that are worth playing...we are gonna have to want it to be a sub based game simple as that.

 People think that game developers want to work for peanuts ??? The best games are sub. It's sad that most gamers today want it to be ftp. All I can say is Thx for....nothing. ....and get a job.

Are you sure that best games are for subs? like it or not but decision to stay P2P doesn't depend upon the companies but consumers.

When people don't want to pay monthly sub anymore and support the game then companies have to either go F2P or B2P. The only other option is to make a very small budget indie MMO and try to stay content with 50K player base on P2P model but we know even then people complain because small budget indie titles are not good enough and lack quality.

People want AAA quality MMOS too and don't want to pay monthly sub either..sorry but you can not have it both ways.

Originally posted by DrDwarf

First impressions...

It is pants.  

Graphics are rubbish....feels completely childish

Character creation is terrible ....

Waste of time mobs ... got no xp for killing mobs just quest completion (I think)  all chars rip through mobs in starter zones in a truly meaningless way.   Sure it has to be easy but this was pointless.

2 Character slots only on free version (over all servers) .. barely any more with paid founders packs costing £40-120

No drops from mobs or at least very few so .. forget gearing up by grinding option - at least in starter zone ..

Feels claustrophobic already

 

 

 

Is there any reason to play this game over others out there with much more class ?  

 

 

 

 

 

I didn't pay anything and i maxed out my character and got nice gear from PVP. If i wasn't jumping between various MMOS i would have got full glory PVP set.

So nope you don't always get what you pay for sometimes you get a lot more without paying anything.

Originally posted by Fendel84M
Ya, 70% wanted a wipe yet in game is packed full of people who aren't even talking about this crap. They are just happy to play again.

Players hardly talk about this issue in game. As if nothing ever happened. All the drama is for forums..in game people are just happy to play game again.

Originally posted by AG-Vuk

Originally posted by simplius

STO has evolved into a REAL AAA MMO, albeit a small one

they have squished a ton of bugs , and added some very nice features

and its one of the very few mmos, that allow you to customize your character over and over,

for a very small amount of in game credits

welcome to the big League STO

Yeah , I'll take issue with a few things here. AAA ? Seriously , ever dealt with customer service ? How about server loads ? Customization of Characters ? Really that's your criteria for AAA ? Seriously ? It's a nice feature, but the core mechanics are weak and the game is basically CO dressed up to be ST. I think people with an agenda push this game farther forward then it deserves. It has some nice parts and not discounting the fun factor. As far as space games go , it's a failure. Sorry but 2-D movement with a stepped vertical movement just doesn't cut it. In fact the same movement found in in CoX, CO. But , hey why let things like that get in the way of glorifying what is a best a mediocre game, from a mediocre company.

Hmm am i the only who can see the irony in this statement? 

Originally posted by taus01

Originally posted by dgarbini
I appreciate what they are trying to do, I really do.  I think some of the different play style mechanics are nice.  However I just cannot get past the art style.  This was the same problem with WOW.  I know WOW is a hit and it must just be me, but if they would have brought the art style in a different direction I would have been much more inclined to get on board with the project.  At this point I just cant.  Why do I even mention this, honestly I think the art style is going to be their biggest hurdle to 'appealing to MMO players across generes'.

 

I do hate the wow art style but somehow, even though this style is very similar, it has a certain quality and it looks damn funny. Nothing in wow makes me smile just looking at a characters animations. This however does.

I am a sucker for Craig McCracken cartoons.

I actually see no difference in WOW and Wildstar in terms of looks. Although, obviously in 2013 WIldstar would look a bit better but over all i don't see any major differences. When i first saw Wildstar video i was puzzled because i thought it was a video from barrens map.

So yes i find it very doubly standard to hate WOW for cartooon graphics and call it childish and then praise Wildstar in same breathe.

Fact is that it is just cool to hate WOW and people are just hugely biased towards it. And using its art style to hate it has become such a cliche over the years that when same people praise WIldstar for it looks it is bound to raise some eye brows.

Originally posted by AG-Vuk
Translation , we were looking for a way to squeeze more money out of the player base. We've added more stuff to grind and ultimately spend money for .

Its been 3 years...give it up!

As far as squeezing more money out of the player base.. welcome to F2P model. And if you dislike grind i suggest quit MMO genre all together.

Originally posted by botrytis

Originally posted by DocBrody

What a shame. And they gave away Secret World for like 10 bucks, which is a ten times better MMO.

50$ for GW2? No way I´m buying this. Didn´t even like the free weekend.

10X better? In which reality? It is a single player shooter that they tried to add MMO features too. It is an awful game.

Man you really need to leave other people alone whenever they mention that they prefer X game over GW2. No need to dog them down every time for it.

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by Whitebeards

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by Whitebeards

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

 

You can just Swap the EQ2 and GW2 order in your sentences and read it to yourself, Then you know what my point is.

The only difference is that many more players seem to prefer GW2 over EQ2

 

I think you didn't understand the irony that i was trying to bring forward with my sentence. More people prefer WOW over both EQ2 and GW2..what does that say about either game?

it says something about WoW being around twice the size of GW2 in the west and WoW being some 200 times bigger than EQ2 and GW2 being 100x bigger than EQ2.

No it says that only because a game is more popular doesn't mean it is better. You are trying to argue about subjective tastes here an argument you and others will never win.

That is why i mentioned WOW if we are just going to get into  'my MMO is bigger than yours'. If i go by your logic than WOW automatically is a better game because it is bigger and is P2P model and Anet knew they won't stand a chance. Hence, they went B2P to sell their game.

 

You came to this thread and said EQ2 and FFXI are better options since they have more content.

I just told you maybe the amount of content isn't what people are looking for but the type of content.

EQ2 and FFXI content isn't interchangeable with GW2 content, hence they can charge different prices.

It is true size alone doesn't mean everything, but on the other hand EQ2 and FFXI are games even older than WoW, that existed in a time a game was able to grow to WoW size.

GW2 exists in a much different time.

Read again that is not what i said. However, i did mention the opposite side of the coin when you and that other guy started with 'my game is bigger than yours so it is better' argument. I was playing the devils advocate and that is why i mentioned WOW.

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by Whitebeards

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

 

You can just Swap the EQ2 and GW2 order in your sentences and read it to yourself, Then you know what my point is.

The only difference is that many more players seem to prefer GW2 over EQ2

 

I think you didn't understand the irony that i was trying to bring forward with my sentence. More people prefer WOW over both EQ2 and GW2..what does that say about either game?

it says something about WoW being around twice the size of GW2 in the west and WoW being some 200 times bigger than EQ2 and GW2 being 100x bigger than EQ2.

No it says that only because a game is more popular doesn't mean it is better. You are trying to argue about subjective tastes here an argument you and others will never win.

That is why i mentioned WOW if we are just going to get into  'my MMO is bigger than yours'. If i go by your logic than WOW automatically is a better game because it is bigger and is P2P model and Anet knew they won't stand a chance. Hence, they went B2P to sell their game.

Originally posted by Kyleran
You have no vested interest in staying with a single game, especially with no up front costs, sub fees, and at the end of the day, any real purpose or accomplishment to strive for.

I admit now i have more choices without shelling out 15 bucks just to get access to the game but even earlier when all MMOS were P2P i atleast used to stick to one for minimum one month if not more.

Its crazy!!

Every time i sit down to play a MMO after a long hard day at work i just can not make up my mind regarding what MMO to stick to...atleast for a couple of days if not for weeks or months.

Just last week i started playing AION, i hit lvl 30 on fast track server, thought this time i will surely hit level cap (something i rarely do these days) and see some higher level content. And then yesterday and today i spent majority of my time playing STO new expansion. Similar things happened to me last month when i was jumping between AOC, TSW and GW2. 

As a result i have mid level characters across all the MMOS including EQ2, CO, Tera, Defiance, AOC, TSW, Vanguard, AION; DDO, LOTRO, SWTOR...phew!! (pardon me if i forgot some other names).

Only MMO i managed to hit cap recently  was in NW and GW2 that also because leveling is quite fast.

So what i am saying is that anyone else having this problem where they are finding it harder and harder to stick to one MMO? not because you are not enjoying it but because you have too many MMOS to choose and play from?

I keep getting distracted and at this rate i don't think i will ever be able to see higher level content.

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

 

You can just Swap the EQ2 and GW2 order in your sentences and read it to yourself, Then you know what my point is.

The only difference is that many more players seem to prefer GW2 over EQ2

 

I think you didn't understand the irony that i was trying to bring forward with my sentence. More people prefer WOW over both EQ2 and GW2..what does that say about either game?

Originally posted by saurus123

Originally posted by SavageHorizon

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by Wizardry

EQ2 FREE

You could wait buy SC on double or triple days and buy enough un-lockers to fully enjoy the game for years and over several players.This is a MUCH more robust game giving over 300+ dollars in free xpacs.EQ2 has everything,housing,mounts,guild halls,better graphics,tons of classes,seriously it is miles the best option out there.

I bought a new FFXi account 15 bucks,again an extremely robust game,over 200 bucks in free xpac content.Yes it has a sub fee,but paying 50 to a game you might quit in one week or even 2 months is not a good bargain.This is especially since the game has so little content,your getting 1/4 the game as other older games.

This has nothing to do with what i think of GW2 personally,but a game like this at this stage with no xpacs is not worth more than 20 bucks.Even at 20 it would be a tough sell to me,especially with so many f2p games out there doing basically the exact same things.

On the other hand there is a reason those other games have to give, in your own words, hundreds of dollars worth of content for free.

Like static combat, worse graphics (I like that little remark of FQ2 graphics beating GW2 graphics), traditional text questing (as in outdated).

 

You assume that like you everyone else is bored of traditional questing, you know the marker over the type like GW2 has with hart npc's. And you also assume that people are fed up with tab targeting combat which in case you have forgotten, GW2 has.

EQ2 wipes the floor with GW2 is everything than perhaps graphics, it has so much to do in the game it actually makes GW2 look sterile.

 

and yet me and many other players i know couldnt stand the EQ2 for more than 1 hour

it doesnt matter if theres much to do if the game have crappy combat, quests, lore and world

 

graphic isnt important for me if i dont have fun i dont play the game

 

 

I also know a lot of players who would prefer EQ2 over GW2 any day only because of sheer content and feature it provides for players.

But any ways your point is? you and your friends dislike EQ2 so somehow it has to have some universal effect?

Originally posted by Vahrane

Originally posted by Whitebeards

Originally posted by Vahrane

Originally posted by Whitebeards

Originally posted by Vahrane

 

 I edited my earlier post with an example. You missed it. Go back and read it.

 One example of heightened complexity offered by initial mmorpg experiences included UO's skill based system which allowed players, for the first time, to pursue characters that were crafters or thieves and not just fighters. Bread and other food objects could be poisoned with various levels of poisons created by player alchemists. The aforementioned poisonous food could then be left out for an unsuspecting victim. The ability to kill someone with a piece of bread  is far beyond the kind of gameplay  we have today.

Oh boy..so this is what you consider as 'heightened complexity'? 

By the way UO doesn't make entire genre.

   Give me a better example from NW? It's not the best but it sure as hell beats the click-fest, excuse for D&D that is NW. Can these games ever get as complex as a pen and paper session? No, I highly doubt it. It does seriously seem that games are moving in the opposite direction though. I think the most interesting combat tactic, that even borders on complexity, that I've heard about from NW is knocking adds off cliffs during boss fights. 

I don't need to give an example because i don't even believe in this 'heightened complexity' thing you are going on about. MMOS were never as complex as you are trying hard to prove they were. And the example you gave from UO just proves my point.

      I didn't say they were highly complex initially! I said they were more complex than what we have now! Formerly, there was a greater (heightened) sense of complexity in older mmo games. Now you're arguing a completely different point and I'm starting to doubt you really had a point to begin with. It's a completely opinionated argument anyway. I feel the way I do and you have no real feeling beyond the enjoyment of linking random gifs after peoples posts.

I took your comment the way you wrote it. You said this genre used to be about 'heightened complexity'. Now you can back peddle and change your original statement but that is what you wrote. So nope i wasn't arguing a different point but the only point you were trying to make about this 'genre'.

Don't get upset now because i questioned what you said and asked you to back it up. And yes i know it is an opinionated argument but that doesn't mean others can not question your opinions. 

By the way i only posted animated GIF for your post....so i don't know who are these other 'peoples' you are talking about.

Originally posted by Vahrane

Originally posted by Whitebeards

Originally posted by Vahrane

 

 I edited my earlier post with an example. You missed it. Go back and read it.

 One example of heightened complexity offered by initial mmorpg experiences included UO's skill based system which allowed players, for the first time, to pursue characters that were crafters or thieves and not just fighters. Bread and other food objects could be poisoned with various levels of poisons created by player alchemists. The aforementioned poisonous food could then be left out for an unsuspecting victim. The ability to kill someone with a piece of bread  is far beyond the kind of gameplay  we have today.

Oh boy..so this is what you consider as 'heightened complexity'? 

By the way UO doesn't make entire genre.

   Give me a better example from NW? It's not the best but it sure as hell beats the click-fest, excuse for D&D that is NW. Can these games ever get as complex as a pen and paper session? No, I highly doubt it. It does seriously seem that games are moving in the opposite direction though. I think the most interesting combat tactic, that even borders on complexity, that I've heard about from NW is knocking adds off cliffs during boss fights. 

I don't need to give an example because i don't even believe in this 'heightened complexity' thing you are going on about. MMOS were never as complex as you are trying hard to prove they were. And the example you gave from UO just proves my point.

Originally posted by Vahrane

 

 I edited my earlier post with an example. You missed it. Go back and read it.

 One example of heightened complexity offered by initial mmorpg experiences included UO's skill based system which allowed players, for the first time, to pursue characters that were crafters or thieves and not just fighters. Bread and other food objects could be poisoned with various levels of poisons created by player alchemists. The aforementioned poisonous food could then be left out for an unsuspecting victim. The ability to kill someone with a piece of bread  is far beyond the kind of gameplay  we have today.

Oh boy..so this is what you consider as 'heightened complexity'? 

By the way UO doesn't make entire genre.

Originally posted by Vahrane

Originally posted by Whitebeards

Originally posted by Vahrane

      Since you're 23 did you play UO during it's heyday or much further into it's development? It's been a shell of it's former self for years and has been more about hunting down items like a Diablo title. If you played UO at its initial release you'd have been 4 years old. Somehow I don't believe this.

You are exaggerating yet again. UO isn't shell of its former self. And i can bet you that those who played UO when it first came out would disagree with you still about 'heightened complexity'. 

Like i said earlier you surely do love to exaggerate a lot.

   More BS from your end. How about you answer my question this time? Exaggeration is subjective.

Umm burden of proof is on you my friend. I never claimed anything here. So please tell us how and what made UO so complex that you claimed that this entire 'genre' was about 'heightened complexity'? you can not just say stuff like that on open forums because someone will surely ask you to back up your claims with atleast a bit of factual information.

By the way UO is just one MMO and surely doesn't make the entire genre. Here i will post your original comment again to make things clear....

"Maybe some people had really really low standards to begin with but this used to be the genre of heightened complexity."