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MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

All Posts by Kickaxe

All Posts by Kickaxe

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89 posts found
Truly enjoyed reading these blog posts from Raph, remembering the greatness and awfullness of what I consider to be the very best MMORPG ever made--cause no other game has ever meant quite so much to me as Star Wars Galaxies. I'm pretty sure Raph Koster deserves much of the credit for making SWG innovative and compelling. So, thanks Raph for daring to be daring, even if it didn't quite all work out the way you wanted.

Great topic, Grak. I'm with you and Loke (from the replies) on this; cheating, the type that skews competition, is absolutely bad behaviour. Moreover, it's part of the reason we can't have nice things in our MMORPGs. It's part of the reason that games are overly streamlined and restrictive--to curtail the greed and grief of not only the shameless and selfish but also the apathetic and unmindful.

 

Full disclosure: I've used exploits to an extent that I felt I could rationalize. And I'm not sure my reasons could stand up to proper scrutiny; however, I have not and would not use cheats or exploits in competitive play. I realize that there's a broad area of interpretation that some might take liberty with there, but I think most of us could probably agree on certain types of gameplay within which it would be at least problematic if not downright unethical to use cheats or exploits to personal advantage.

 

I think we should respect the game and our opponents enough to allow as much of pure gameplay to decide outcomes as possible.

I could use that key if you still have it, Pron.
Originally posted by jusomdude

... It's all over when searching "WoW upkeep costs."

Info is a little old, but it's all we have to work with.

 

Perhaps.  But keep in mind that I'm not calling you a liar, only rather that a link or some other citation would be prudent--just to keep things honest and subject to review, if you follow my meaning.

 

I did use your search 'WoW upkeep costs' but only skimmed without seeing 1 or 2 dollars mentioned.  I did, however, see 200 million upkeep for the first 5 years reported by Kotaku in 2008 http://kotaku.com/5050300/how-much-has-wow-cost-blizzard-since-2004.

 

But then again this link casts some doubt: http://www.wowguideonline.com/blog/2011/03/25/digital-castration-world-of-warcraft-operating-costs/.  So hmmm.

 

Did you have something better than these?

Originally posted by jusomdude
Originally posted by fivoroth
You need a win win payment model. It should work for both the companies and the players. I Think people who play longer hours (e.g. 20 hours a week) should pay more than people who play less hours to balance it out. If you make it so that the $15 dollars you currently pay entitle you to 150 hours or something crazy like that then casuals will pay almost nothing and hardcore players will end up paying the same. That's bad for the mmo developer.

...I read awhile ago that WoW only needs $1-2 dollars of every sub for upkeep costs, and the rest is profit...

 

These type of claims should always include some sort of citation, don't you think?  Let's not be responsible for spreading misinformation, especially if it is related to MMORPGs.

I fear that just some dude in another thread or some other forums will be quoting you--without link--as an authority on the subject, otherwise.

Originally posted by azzamasin

Ever possibly think that people have been clamoring for an old school PvE centric sandbox with massive exploration?  Of course you didn't because like 99% of the posters on this site you only think of your own personal preferences.

 

Made up statistics.

 

Overly cynical.

 

Also, probably right (sorry OP).

Originally posted by DMKano

Ex employees are going to be extremely bitter.

This thread should not be on this site - because every company has nasty ex-employee glass door reviews.

Its pointless.

 

 

I absolutely disagree, DMK. If it's related to MMOs, even tangentially, it should be fair game for discussion here. As long as it is subject to reasonable moderation, as long as its presentation and arguments are decently sound and decently persuasive, then it should be allowed. If there is a fundamental undermining component in an argument--downsized employees often retaliate by badmouthing employers, for instance--then let's trust that the resulting discussion will give that aspect its due consideration. Whether or not the discussion is ultimately fruitful should be determined by the discussion and not arbitrary hard editorial impassable lines that preempt what I think is really the whole point of having forums here--debate and discussion on the subject of MMO's and related topics.

 

I personally find the Glass Door entries in question to be believable. I do not read any particular malice beyond what would be expected if what is being reported is true; moreover, the entries seem quite respectful and even considerate (especially regarding fellow employess). Also, I surely think it's hard to deny that Wildstar's many hiccups do not add some credibility to these type of behind-the-scenes insights. To be fair though, I will acknowledge that I would not qualify anything I read in the entries as proof positive that Carbine is a bad company, and I would urge others not to view it that way based merely on this evidence.

Originally posted by Kickaxe
Originally posted by BillMurphy
Hey folks,

Currently on vacation with my family. I did not see Som's article until today. I can however say that WE DO NOT accept payment for reviews, but some companies have tried. Usually Eastern imported MMOs, and never a big AAA company.

And I know for a fact of two of our direct competitors who DO accept $$$ for their favorable reviews. I won't say who without proof to back it up. But they're not likely the kind of sites that most of our readers would visit outside of good Google Search returns. They don't have the community that Massively and MMORPG support.

And if those sites do it, it's highly likely that other sites across other genres and countries do as well.

So while you may not agree with scores we sometimes give, they've never been paid for.

For the TSW COLUMN: we honestly just see good traffic on those, as the game has a following here and abroad. Niche though it may be. We generally write what you guys read, so if people stop clicking TSW columns, we will move on.

Cheers! Now I'm going back to vacation.

PS - The column stays. Som is wrong about some thing's, but there's still plenty of value in this discussion. Go ahead and try to hash out what sites DO accept paid reviews.

 

I appreciate the condor of your reply, Bill. Respectfully, I would suggest that a change in title for the article would be good. Using the term myth is unnecessarily provocative and somewhat undermines the discussion to the extent that it suggests a position of total denial rather than one of good faith in the discussion.

Quoting myself for context.  

The article's title has since been changed; 'Issue' replaces 'Myth' (if my memory serves, that is).  I just wanted to recognize MMORPG.com for making this change which to me demonstrates goodwill on their part.

 

Personally, I don't believe this site or its writers to be corrupt--I don't believe that they take bribes in exchange for favourable reviews.  That being said, however, I do think that the reviews and articles here often have a strong fansite vibe rather than what I would expect of a game press site oriented to enthusiast level readership.  Moreover, at other times, and with reference to the OP article, I sense contempt for many of us who frequent the site--for those of us that tend toward the critical view (and not exclusively against the hostile or unhinged) of games and developers. Thus it appears at times that MMORPG.com and perhaps other similar sites is not holding itself up to an appropriate professional standard if it is to be considered a member of the games press (though perhaps I am wrong and MMORPG.com does not identify itself this way).

Originally posted by BillMurphy
Hey folks,

Currently on vacation with my family. I did not see Som's article until today. I can however say that WE DO NOT accept payment for reviews, but some companies have tried. Usually Eastern imported MMOs, and never a big AAA company.

And I know for a fact of two of our direct competitors who DO accept $$$ for their favorable reviews. I won't say who without proof to back it up. But they're not likely the kind of sites that most of our readers would visit outside of good Google Search returns. They don't have the community that Massively and MMORPG support.

And if those sites do it, it's highly likely that other sites across other genres and countries do as well.

So while you may not agree with scores we sometimes give, they've never been paid for.

For the TSW COLUMN: we honestly just see good traffic on those, as the game has a following here and abroad. Niche though it may be. We generally write what you guys read, so if people stop clicking TSW columns, we will move on.

Cheers! Now I'm going back to vacation.

PS - The column stays. Som is wrong about some thing's, but there's still plenty of value in this discussion. Go ahead and try to hash out what sites DO accept paid reviews.

 

I appreciate the condor of your reply, Bill. Respectfully, I would suggest that a change in title for the article would be good. Using the term myth is unnecessarily provocative and somewhat undermines the discussion to the extent that it suggests a position of total denial rather than one of good faith in the discussion.

Originally posted by Krimzin

It completely amazes me how many haters there are.

As Carbine said in the past.. 200k subs and they are profitable.
On Stormtalon the population is great. MMore than enough players to recruit from. Solid Auction House.

Will it ever be WoW, god I hope not. I dont think I could ever go back to the Boring Combat.
Could care less if there are 200k subs or 2million. As long as Carbine keeps moving forward the game will be fine. [emphasis added]

Can you provide a source for this claim?  I may have missed that interesting insight from Carbine or NCSoft but I believe you are simply quoting speculation by other forum posters.

Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by svandy

It's an important distinction to make, although I thought it was pretty obvious from the start... maybe I just read more closely than others. 

yes, it was obvious from the start precisely because they stated exactly what the situation was.

Just some people are just ... well ...

 

announced today that the company sold more than $500 million of Destiny into retail stores and first parties worldwide as of day one, making the game the biggest new video game franchise launch in history.  

Based on extraordinary audience demand, retail and first party orders worldwide have exceeded $500 million for Destiny,



The OP's post shouldn't even be necessary.

 

I'm of the mind that Activision was likely counting on some mis-reading and the resulting mis-reporting of the announcement. Call me cynical but living and breathing makes me thus.

Ironically, from the very same site that the OP linked, reporting of '[Activision] sold more than $500 million worth of [Destiny] copies worldwide -- in just one day of sales' can be found. No sold in or sold through terminology used or, certainly not, explained.  Additionally, the same story claims that Destiny's budget topped $500 million, which represents another mis-reading of an Activision announcement. As most of us here know the $500 million figure was merely an estimate that included future investment in addition to the past and present costs of producing the game.

Many of the press and much of the game's potential consumer base are somehow easily distracted by the towering numbers being dangled before their eyes. Perhaps they deserve some censure, but at the same time I think we can acknowledge that they are being played, just a little bit at least.

 

Originally posted by gervaise1

...However Activision in their same announcement also claimed that Destiny was the biggest selling digital game ever. Who from - we don't know; could be Amazon digital pre-order could be via the Destiny web site. Digital pre-orders via e.g. Amazon may or may not be included in the $500M figure. Digital sales via the Destiny web site almost certainly excluded from the number...    

 

I'll admit that I have little knowledge of console politics, so perhaps I'm missing something; but are you actually suggesting that Activision's announcement of sales excluded digital sales from its own game's website?  I find that extraordinary. It's like they VGChartz'd their own sales figures?

Originally posted by bcbully
In all honest, are they really just merging down to 2 servers? Is there much more population than that?

Per data center, so 2 servers US and 2 servers EU, 4 all together world.  Sadly RP'ers were left out in the cold; no RP only realm cause not enough population to make that viable.  Predictably, RP'ers are the most likely segment of the game's population to express unhappiness over the change to mega servers.

Surprise!  Another hype piece brought to you by MMORPG.COM.

 

I like the game too, guys; but, seriously, addon downloads?!  Don't mention that the number one spot is held by BijiPlates--a worthy addon is its own right but hugely bolstered in downloads by a bug in Carbine's base game ui that has rendered nameplates at best wonky but often altogether unavailable.  Unfortunately Bijiplates hasn't actually solved the issue (related to occlusion) but that hasn't stopped many of us from desperately trying many possible workarounds, with none actually overcoming the bug that has existed long ago in beta (at least 5 months ago by my calculations, having been in closed beta).

 

Give us some skepticism, MMORPG.COM; some journalistic integrity.  Leave the hype to publisher/developer marketing and fans (of the non-journalist type, if that wasn't clear enough).

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

Where developers use the box count as a measure of success..

 

Thats where player use the retention, or the numbers of players that are still playing after 3 months as a success or fail--

 

WoW started slow, but kept on slowly growing after the initial succes, i think thats what a healthy game requires,, that they keep selling boxes after the innitial week and continously have  new people joining the game, preferably more new people then people leaving for the time to come.. [emphasis added]

 

By the standards of its time WoW did exceptionally well at its release: http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/2004/Dec/1098177.htm

Originally posted by Daessar
So maybe I missed it, but I thought they were allowing numbers in your name, because of the Mechari .....guess not?

Nope, that option was removed.

Originally posted by kitarad
True dat but I felt there were trying to go back to the 40 man raid thing as a signature to their aim of going back to the roots and vanilla WoW.  It does not bode well then to dump it but otoh if the demand is just not there for 40 man raids they will probably say so and change the focus. As long as they continue to develop content for raiding it should do well IMO.

Good response, Kit.

It's always hard to distinguish between the marketing and the reality though.  I'm definitely in a wait and see mode.  Let's hope we continue to get interesting and truly challenging content--whatever the format may be.  I hope most of us can agree on that, at least.  

Originally posted by kitarad
Isn't WoW already offering a smaller raid group size ? Why would you come to Wildstar then if you wanted that size ?

Surely you can imagine an answer to your question.  Action combat, WoW fatigue, Housing system, friends moving to Wildstar, new IP excitement, etc.

Originally posted by Kinado
Originally posted by JeroKane
Originally posted by kitarad

The thing is these guilds that enjoy this organization and challenge need only do it once a week .Currently not many games offer that and I do not understand what the problem is if this game does offer this content. Are we such petty people that we even begrudge players who enjoy this type of thing even if we do not to happily go and play this game . 

 

WoW may have done away the 40 man raids because it got tedious for a majority of the player base but Wildstar is not as large as WoW and I do not think judging from the server listing Wildstar is intending to rival WoW. They are producing a niche game and 40 and 80 man raids are for the very niche of the niche. We should be applauding game that are going back to Naggy,Vox Trakanon style raiding  Remember the weekend at Temple of Veeshan...... ahh those were the days. 

Which makes it even more unlikely they going to continue With it and continue releasing New 40man raids.

WoW had 10 million subs at primetime and raked in 150 million a month on sub fees alone.

And they still did away With it, as it wasn't financially sustainable to spend huge amounts of Money when only 1-2% of the entire playerbase participated in it.

It's not about having something against 40man RAIDs or that they shouldn't do it.

People just have to temper their expectations and not be suprised if Carbine ends up not making anymore huge RAIDs after launch, when only a handful of players do them.

Not sustainable? lol at 150 million per month any game is long long long past sustainability. WoW lost a lot of the core players when it started nerfing content that many people made a huge effort to overcome just so all of a sudden anybody could go in there and beat the bosses with little to no effort. A joke.

A good core of hardcore players is essential to any MMO, these core players will assure other newly players that the game they are investing time in, is worth playing for a long time. After knowing its worth it, its up to them to whether invest time in the game or not. Either way, it has that quality stamp on it already.

Thus, that 1-2% of the entire playerbase is more important than you might think.

However a MMO can't rely on hardcore Raid players alone, it needs shitloads of content for casuals and PVPers and still remain competitive. Hardcore players will just have that extra oomph on their gears. That extra hardcore level though is a way for everyone to know that there's much more to the game if they choose to invest in it. The ultimate carrot on a stick.

Nothing worse in a MMO than having that feeling of "Now what?" and there's nothing else meaningful to do.

As for 40 man raids logistically, its all about competition. If there are a lot of guilds competing, players will spread too thin and recruiting will be a nightmare. If there are few, recruiting will be very easy. Doesn't matter if its 20 man or 40 man. The only problem with 40 man is the higher AFK and disconnect probability in the middle of a raid.

Are you certain though that 1-2% of hardcore players is preferable to let's say 15-20% slightly less but still decently hardcore?  We can move the dial slightly more or less in either direction but it seems somewhat arbitrary to me.  How do we come to the conclusion that 1-2% is the sweet spot?  Also, I don't think JK is suggesting hard content is undesirable, or that the devoted over-achiever is unwanted.

Originally posted by kitarad

If I had a penny for everytime someone has said they want to go back to vanilla WoW or Everquest when it launched I would have a lot of pennies but what I am saying is that there is a slice of the population who enjoy this. If a game is catering to a niche they will have to develop content for that niche if they want that niche to pay monthly. 

 

I think Carbine will continue to develop 40 man content because if they want those people to sub and play they will have to. They cannot afford not to since their population is not WoW size.

I think that merits a huge 'that depends' type response, Kit. Not that I don't see the strength of your view, but consider that Carbine's huge raid size marketing push may not be as effective as you might believe.  Perhaps other aspects of the game have had greater influence over their current upcoming playerbase.  Maybe a high percentage of raiders drawn to the game believe 40-man format will be abandoned quickly (even inevitably) in favour of what they view as the smaller yet better format of 20-man or even smaller sizes.  What if the playerbase, despite themselves, find that they prefer the 20-man raids?  Or what if Carbine notices 5-man dungeons and adventures appear to be the most popular group content and conclude that smaller group play is therefore most worthy of development priority?

What are the metrics?  We don't know.  I don't think even Carbine knows this yet.

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