Trending Games | ArcheAge | Elder Scrolls Online | WildStar | Star Wars: The Old Republic

  Network:  FPSguru RTSguru
Login:  Password:   Remember?  
Show Quick Gamelist Jump to Random Game
Members:2,857,258 Users Online:0
Games:742  Posts:6,242,782
Recent forum postsRSS
Active threads
Cloud view
List all forums
General Forums
Developers Corner General Discussion
Popular Game Forums
Click a status to find game forum
Game Forums
Click a letter to find game forum
A-C
2029 Online 2112: Revolution 2Moons 4Story 8BitMMO 9 Dragons A Mystical Land A Tale in the Desert III A3 ACE Online ARGO Online Aberoth Absolute Force Online Absolute Terror Achaea Adellion Aerrevan Aetolia, the Midnight Age Age of Armor Age of Conan Age of Empires Online Age of Mourning Age of Wulin Age of Wushu Aida Arenas Aika Aion Albion Online Alganon All Points Bulletin (APB) Allods Online Altis Gates Amazing World Anarchy Online Ancients of Fasaria Andromeda 5 Angels Online Angry Birds Epic Anime Trumps Anmynor Anno Online Applo Arcane Hearts Arcane Legends ArchLord ArcheAge Archeblade Archlord X Ascend: Hand of Kul Asda 2 Asda Story Ashen Empires Asheron's Call Asheron's Call 2 Astera Online Astonia III Astro Empires Astro Lords: Oort CLoud Asura Force Atlantica Online Atriarch Aura Kingdom Aurora Blade Auto Assault Avatar Star Battle Dawn Battle Dawn Galaxies Battle for Graxia Battle of 3 Kingdoms Battle of the Immortals Battlecruiser Online Battlestar Galactica Online Battlestar Reloaded Beyond Protocol Black Aftermath Black Desert Black Gold Black Prophecy Black Prophecy Tactics: Nexus Conflict Blacklight Retribution Blade & Soul Blade Hunter Blade Wars Blazing Throne Bless Blitz 1941 Blood and Jade Bloodlines Champions Boot Hill Heroes Borderlands 2 Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel Bound by Flame Bounty Bay Online Brain Storm Bravada Bravely Default Bravely Second Brawl Busters. Brick-Force Bright Shadow Bullet Run Business Tycoon Online CTRacer Cabal Online Caesary Call of Camelot Call of Gods Call of Thrones Camelot Unchained Canaan Online Cardmon Hero Cartoon Universe CasinoRPG Cast & Conquer Castle Empire Castlot Celtic Heroes Champions Online Champions of Regnum Chaos Online Child of Light Chrono Tales Citadel of Sorcery CitiesXL Citizen Zero City of Decay City of Heroes City of Steam City of Transformers City of Villains Civilization Online Clan Lord Clash of Clans Cloud Nine Club Penguin Colony of War Command & Conquer: Tiberium Alliances Company of Heroes Online Conquer Online Conquer Online 3 Continent of the Ninth (C9) Core Blaze Core Exiles Corum Online Craft of Gods Crimecraft Crimelife 2 Cronous Crota II Crusaders of Solaris Cultures Online Cyber Monster 2 Céiron Wars
D-F
D&D Online DC Universe DK Online DOTA DOTA 2 DUST 514 DV8: Exile Dalethaan Dance Groove Online Dark Age of Camelot Dark Ages Dark Legends Dark Orbit Dark Relic: Prelude Dark Solstice Dark and Light DarkEden Online DarkSpace Darkblood Online Darkest Dungeon Darkfall Darkfall: Unholy Wars Darkwind: War on Wheels Das Tal Dawn of Fantasy Dawntide DayZ Dead Earth Dead Frontier Dead Island Dead Island 2 Dead Island: Riptide Deco Online Deepworld Defiance Deicide Online Dekaron Demons at the Horizon Desert Operations Destiny Diablo 3 Diamonin Digimon Battle Dino Storm Disciple Divergence Divina Divine Souls Divinity: Original Sin Dofus Dominus Online Dragon Age: Inquisition Dragon Ball Online Dragon Born Online Dragon Crusade Dragon Empires Dragon Eternity Dragon Nest Dragon Oath Dragon Pals Dragon Raja Dragon's Call Dragon's Call II Dragon's Prophet DragonSky DragonSoul Dragona Dragonica Dragons and Titans Drakengard 3 Dream of Mirror Online Dreamland Online Dreamlords: The Reawakening Drift City Duels Dungeon Blitz Dungeon Fighter Online Dungeon Overlord Dungeon Party Dungeon Rampage Dungeon Runners Dungeon of the Endless Dynastica Dynasty Warriors Online Dynasty of the Magi EIN (Epicus Incognitus) EVE Online Earth Eternal Earth and Beyond Earthrise Eclipse War Ecol Tactics Online Eden Eternal Edge of Space Einherjar - The Viking's Blood Elder Scrolls Online Eldevin Elf Online Elite: Dangerous Embers of Caerus Emil Chronicle Online Empire Empire & State Empire Craft Empire Universe 3 EmpireQuest Empires of Galldon End of Nations Endless Ages Endless Blue Moon Online Endless Online Entropia Universe EpicDuel Erebus: Travia Reborn Eredan Eternal Blade Eternal Lands Eternal Saga Ether Fields Ether Saga Online Eudemons Online EuroGangster EverEmber Online EverQuest Next EverQuest Online Adventures Evernight Everquest Everquest II Evony Exarch Exorace F.E.A.R. Online Face of Mankind Fairyland Online Fall of Rome Fallen Earth Fallen Sword Fallout Online Family Guy Online Fantage Fantasy Earth Zero Fantasy Realm Online Fantasy Tales Online Fantasy Worlds: Rhynn Faunasphere Faxion Online Fearless Fantasy Ferentus Ferion Fiesta Online Final Fantasy Type-0 HD Final Fantasy XI Final Fantasy XIV Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn Firefall Fists of Fu Florensia Flyff Football Manager Live Football Superstars Force of Arms Forge Forsaken World Fortnite Fortuna Forum for Discussion of Everlight Freaky Creatures Free Realms Freesky Online Freeworld Fung Wan Online Furcadia Fury Fusion Fall
G-L
GalaXseeds Galactic Command Online Game of Thrones: Seven Kingdoms Gameglobe Gate To Heavens Gates of Andaron Gatheryn Gauntlet Gekkeiju Online Ghost Online Ghost Recon Online Gladiatus Glitch Global Agenda Global Soccer Gloria Victis Glory of Gods GoGoRacer Goal Line Blitz Gods and Heroes GodsWar Online Golemizer Golf Star GoonZu Online Graal Kingdoms Granado Espada Online Grand Chase Grand Fantasia Grepolis Grimlands Guild Wars Guild Wars 2 Guild Wars Factions Guild Wars Nightfall H1Z1 Habbo Hotel Hailan Rising HaloSphere2 Haven & Hearth Hawken Heart Forth Alicia Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft Helbreath Hellgate Hellgate: London Hello Kitty Online Hero Online Hero Zero Hero's Journey Hero: 108 Online HeroSmash Heroes & Generals Heroes & Legends: Conquerors of Kolhar Heroes in the Sky Heroes of Bestia Heroes of Gaia Heroes of Might and Magic Online Heroes of Thessalonica Heroes of Three Kingdoms Heroes of the Storm Hex Holic Online Hostile Space Hunter Blade Huxley Icewind Dale: Enhanced Edition Illutia Illyriad Immortals USA Imperator Imperian Inferno Legend Infestation: Survivor Stories Infinite Crisis Infinity Infinity Iris Online Iron Grip: Marauders Irth Worlds Island Forge Islands of War Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted Jade Dynasty Jagged Alliance Online Juggernaut Jumpgate Jumpgate Evolution KAL Online Kakele Online Kaos War Karos Online Kartuga Kicks Online King of Kings 3 Kingdom Heroes Kingdom Under Fire II Kingdom of Drakkar Kingory Kings and Legends Kings of the Realm KingsRoad Kitsu Saga Kiwarriors Knight Age Knight Online Knights of Dream City Kothuria Kung Foo! Kunlun Online Kyn L.A.W. LEGO Universe La Tale Land of Chaos Online Landmark Lands of Hope: Phoenix Edition LastChaos League of Angels League of Legends - Clash of Fates Legend of Edda: Vengeance Legend of Golden Plume Legend of Katha Legend of Mir 2 Legend of Mir 3 Legendary Champions Lego Minifigures Online Lichdom: Battlemage Life is Feudal Light of Nova Lime Odyssey Line of Defense Lineage Lineage Eternal: Twilight Resistance Lineage II Linkrealms Loong Online Lord of the Rings Online Lords Online Lords of the Fallen Lost Saga Lucent Heart Lunia Lusternia: Age of Ascension Luvinia World
M-Q
MU Online Mabinogi Maestia: Rise of Keledus MagiKnights Magic Barrage Magic World Online Manga Fighter MapleStory Martial Heroes Marvel Heroes Marvel Super Hero Squad Online Marvel: Avengers Alliance MechWarrior Online Megaten Meridian 59 : Evolution Merlin MetalMercs Metaplace Metin 2 MicroVolts Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor Midkemia Online Might & Magic Heroes: Kingdoms MilMo Minecraft Mini Fighter Minions of Mirth Ministry of War Monato Esprit Monkey King Online Monkey Quest Monster & Me Monster Madness Online MonsterMMORPG Moonlight Online: Tales of Eternal Blood Moonrise Mordavia Mortal Online Mourning My Lands Myst Online: URU Live Myth Angels Online Myth War Myth War 2 Mytheon Mythic Saga Mythos N.E.O Online NIDA Online Nadirim Naviage: The Power of Capital Navy Field Need for Speed World Nemexia Neo's Land NeoSteam Neocron Nether Neverwinter Nexus: The Kingdom Of The Winds NinjaTrick NosTale Novus Aeterno Oberin Odin Quest Odyssey RPG Ogre Island Omerta 3 Online Boxing Manager Onverse Order & Chaos Online Order of Magic Original Blood Origins Return Origins of Malu Orion's Belt Otherland Forums OverSoul Overkings Oz Online Oz World Pandora Saga Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Panzar Parabellum Parallel Kingdom Parfait Station Path of Exile Pathfinder Online Perfect World Perpetuum Online Persona V Phantasy Star Online 2 Phantasy Star Universe Phoenix Dynasty Online Phylon Pi Story Picaroon Pirate Galaxy Pirate Storm Pirate101 PirateKing Online Pirates of the Burning Sea Pirates of the Caribbean Online Pixie Hollow Planeshift Planet Arkadia Planet Calypso PlanetSide 2 Planetside Planets³ Playboy Manager Pocket Legends Pockie Ninja Pockie Pirates Pockie Saints PoxNora Prime World Prime: Battle for Dominus Priston Tale Priston Tale II Prius Online Project Blackout Project Powder Project Titan Forums Project Wiki Project Zomboid Puzzle Pirates Quest for Infamy Quickhit Football
R-S
R2 Online RAN Online RF Online ROSE Online Rage of 3 Kingdoms Ragnarok Online Ragnarok Online II RaiderZ Rakion Rappelz RappelzSEA Ravenmarch Realm Fighter Realm of the Mad God Realm of the Titans Realms Online Reclamation Red Stone Red War: Edem's Curse Regnum Online Remnant Knights Renaissance Repulse Requiem: Memento Mori Rift RiotZone Rise Rise of Dragonian Era Rise of Empire Rise of the Tycoon Risen 3: Titan Lords Rising of King Risk Your Life Rivality Rockfree Rohan: Blood Feud Role Play Worlds Roll n Rock Roma Victor Romadoria Rosh Online Roto X Rubies of Eventide Ruin Online Rumble Fighter Runes of Magic Runescape Rust Rusty Hearts Ryzom S4 League SAGA SD Gundam Capsule Fighter Online SMITE SUN Sacred 3 Sagramore Salem SaySayGirls Scarlet Blade Scions of Fate Seal Online: Evolution Second Chance Heroes Second Life Secret of the Solstice Seed Serenia Fantasy Seven Seas Saga Seven Souls Online Sevencore Shadow Realms Shadow of Legend Shadowbane Shadowrun Online Shaiya Shards Online Shattered Galaxy Sho Online Shot Online Shroud of the Avatar SideQuest Siege on Stars Sigonyth: Desert Eternity Silkroad Online Skyblade Skyforge SmashMuck Champions Smoo Online Soldier Front Soul Master Soul Order Online Soul of Guardian Space Heroes Universe Sparta: War of Empires Spellcasters Sphere Spiral Knights Spirit Tales Splash Fighters Squad Wars Star Citizen Star Sonata 2 Star Stable Star Supremacy Star Trek Online Star Trek: Infinite Space Star Wars Galaxies Star Wars: Clone Wars Adventures Star Wars: The Old Republic StarQuest Online Stargate Worlds Starlight Story Starpires State of Decay SteelWar Online Stone Age 2 Stormfall: Age of War Storybricks Stronghold Kingdoms Styx: Master of Shadows Sudden Attack Supremacy 1914 Supreme Destiny Sword Girls Sword of Destiny: Rise of Aions SwordX Swords of Heavens Swordsman
T-Z
TERA TS Online Tabula Rasa Tactica Online Tales Runner Tales of Fantasy Tales of Pirates Tales of Pirates II Tales of Solaris Talisman Online Tamer Saga Tank Ace Tantra Online Tatsumaki: Land at War Terra Militaris TerraWorld Online Thang Online The 4th Coming The Agency The Aurora World The Banner Saga The Black Watchmen The Chronicle The Chronicles of Spellborn The Crew The Division The Hammers End The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing 2 The Legend of Ares The Lost Titans The Matrix Online The Mighty Quest for Epic Loot The Missing Ink The Mummy Online The Myth of Soma The Pride of Taern The Realm Online The Repopulation The Secret World The Sims Online The Strategems The West The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt Theralon There Therian Saga Thrones of Chaos Tibia Tibia Micro Edition Tiger Knight Titan Siege Titans of Time Toontown Online Top Speed Topia Online Torchlight Total Domination Transformers Universe Transistor Transverse Traveller AR Travia Online Travian Trials of Ascension Tribal Hero Tribal Wars Tribes Universe Trickster Online Trove Troy Online True Fantasy Live Online Turf Battles Twelve Sky Twelve Sky 2 Twilight War Tynon U.B. Funkeys UFO Online URDEAD Online Ultima Forever: Quest for the Avatar Ultima Online Ultima X: Odyssey Ultimate Naruto Ultimate Soccer Boss Uncharted Waters Online Undercover 2: Merc Wars Underlight Unification Wars Universe Online Utopia Valkyrie Sky Vampire Lord Online Vanguard: Saga of Heroes Vanquish Space Vector City Racers Vendetta Online Victory - Age of Racing Vindictus Virtonomics Vis Gladius Visions of Zosimos VoidExpanse Voyage Century Online W.E.L.L. Online WAR (Warhammer Online) WAR2 Glory WYD Global Wakfu War Thunder War of 2012 War of Angels War of Legends War of Mercenaries War of Thrones War of the Immortals WarFlow Waren Story Wargame1942 Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade Warhammer 40K: Dark Millennium Online Warhammer Online: Wrath of Heroes Warkeepers Warrior Epic Wartune Wasteland 2 WebLords Wild West Online WildStar Wind of Luck WindSlayer 2 Wings of Destiny Wish Wizard101 Wizardry Online Wizards and Champions Wonder King Wonderland Online World Golf Tour World of Battles World of Darkness World of Heroes World of Kung Fu World of Pirates World of Speed World of Tanks World of Tanks Generals World of Warcraft World of Warplanes World of Warships World of the Living Dead WorldAlpha Wurm Online Xenoblade Chronicles: X Xenocell Xiah Xsyon Xulu YS Online Yitien ZU Online Zentia Zero Online Zero Online: The Andromeda Crisis Zodiac Online Zombies Ate My Pizza eRepublik

MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

All Posts by Kickaxe

All Posts by Kickaxe

4 Pages 1 2 3 4 »
79 posts found
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by svandy

It's an important distinction to make, although I thought it was pretty obvious from the start... maybe I just read more closely than others. 

yes, it was obvious from the start precisely because they stated exactly what the situation was.

Just some people are just ... well ...

 

announced today that the company sold more than $500 million of Destiny into retail stores and first parties worldwide as of day one, making the game the biggest new video game franchise launch in history.  

Based on extraordinary audience demand, retail and first party orders worldwide have exceeded $500 million for Destiny,



The OP's post shouldn't even be necessary.

 

I'm of the mind that Activision was likely counting on some mis-reading and the resulting mis-reporting of the announcement. Call me cynical but living and breathing makes me thus.

Ironically, from the very same site that the OP linked, reporting of '[Activision] sold more than $500 million worth of [Destiny] copies worldwide -- in just one day of sales' can be found. No sold in or sold through terminology used or, certainly not, explained.  Additionally, the same story claims that Destiny's budget topped $500 million, which represents another mis-reading of an Activision announcement. As most of us here know the $500 million figure was merely an estimate that included future investment in addition to the past and present costs of producing the game.

Many of the press and much of the game's potential consumer base are somehow easily distracted by the towering numbers being dangled before their eyes. Perhaps they deserve some censure, but at the same time I think we can acknowledge that they are being played, just a little bit at least.

 

Originally posted by gervaise1

...However Activision in their same announcement also claimed that Destiny was the biggest selling digital game ever. Who from - we don't know; could be Amazon digital pre-order could be via the Destiny web site. Digital pre-orders via e.g. Amazon may or may not be included in the $500M figure. Digital sales via the Destiny web site almost certainly excluded from the number...    

 

I'll admit that I have little knowledge of console politics, so perhaps I'm missing something; but are you actually suggesting that Activision's announcement of sales excluded digital sales from its own game's website?  I find that extraordinary. It's like they VGChartz'd their own sales figures?

Originally posted by bcbully
In all honest, are they really just merging down to 2 servers? Is there much more population than that?

Per data center, so 2 servers US and 2 servers EU, 4 all together world.  Sadly RP'ers were left out in the cold; no RP only realm cause not enough population to make that viable.  Predictably, RP'ers are the most likely segment of the game's population to express unhappiness over the change to mega servers.

Surprise!  Another hype piece brought to you by MMORPG.COM.

 

I like the game too, guys; but, seriously, addon downloads?!  Don't mention that the number one spot is held by BijiPlates--a worthy addon is its own right but hugely bolstered in downloads by a bug in Carbine's base game ui that has rendered nameplates at best wonky but often altogether unavailable.  Unfortunately Bijiplates hasn't actually solved the issue (related to occlusion) but that hasn't stopped many of us from desperately trying many possible workarounds, with none actually overcoming the bug that has existed long ago in beta (at least 5 months ago by my calculations, having been in closed beta).

 

Give us some skepticism, MMORPG.COM; some journalistic integrity.  Leave the hype to publisher/developer marketing and fans (of the non-journalist type, if that wasn't clear enough).

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

Where developers use the box count as a measure of success..

 

Thats where player use the retention, or the numbers of players that are still playing after 3 months as a success or fail--

 

WoW started slow, but kept on slowly growing after the initial succes, i think thats what a healthy game requires,, that they keep selling boxes after the innitial week and continously have  new people joining the game, preferably more new people then people leaving for the time to come.. [emphasis added]

 

By the standards of its time WoW did exceptionally well at its release: http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/2004/Dec/1098177.htm

Originally posted by Daessar
So maybe I missed it, but I thought they were allowing numbers in your name, because of the Mechari .....guess not?

Nope, that option was removed.

Originally posted by kitarad
True dat but I felt there were trying to go back to the 40 man raid thing as a signature to their aim of going back to the roots and vanilla WoW.  It does not bode well then to dump it but otoh if the demand is just not there for 40 man raids they will probably say so and change the focus. As long as they continue to develop content for raiding it should do well IMO.

Good response, Kit.

It's always hard to distinguish between the marketing and the reality though.  I'm definitely in a wait and see mode.  Let's hope we continue to get interesting and truly challenging content--whatever the format may be.  I hope most of us can agree on that, at least.  

Originally posted by kitarad
Isn't WoW already offering a smaller raid group size ? Why would you come to Wildstar then if you wanted that size ?

Surely you can imagine an answer to your question.  Action combat, WoW fatigue, Housing system, friends moving to Wildstar, new IP excitement, etc.

Originally posted by Kinado
Originally posted by JeroKane
Originally posted by kitarad

The thing is these guilds that enjoy this organization and challenge need only do it once a week .Currently not many games offer that and I do not understand what the problem is if this game does offer this content. Are we such petty people that we even begrudge players who enjoy this type of thing even if we do not to happily go and play this game . 

 

WoW may have done away the 40 man raids because it got tedious for a majority of the player base but Wildstar is not as large as WoW and I do not think judging from the server listing Wildstar is intending to rival WoW. They are producing a niche game and 40 and 80 man raids are for the very niche of the niche. We should be applauding game that are going back to Naggy,Vox Trakanon style raiding  Remember the weekend at Temple of Veeshan...... ahh those were the days. 

Which makes it even more unlikely they going to continue With it and continue releasing New 40man raids.

WoW had 10 million subs at primetime and raked in 150 million a month on sub fees alone.

And they still did away With it, as it wasn't financially sustainable to spend huge amounts of Money when only 1-2% of the entire playerbase participated in it.

It's not about having something against 40man RAIDs or that they shouldn't do it.

People just have to temper their expectations and not be suprised if Carbine ends up not making anymore huge RAIDs after launch, when only a handful of players do them.

Not sustainable? lol at 150 million per month any game is long long long past sustainability. WoW lost a lot of the core players when it started nerfing content that many people made a huge effort to overcome just so all of a sudden anybody could go in there and beat the bosses with little to no effort. A joke.

A good core of hardcore players is essential to any MMO, these core players will assure other newly players that the game they are investing time in, is worth playing for a long time. After knowing its worth it, its up to them to whether invest time in the game or not. Either way, it has that quality stamp on it already.

Thus, that 1-2% of the entire playerbase is more important than you might think.

However a MMO can't rely on hardcore Raid players alone, it needs shitloads of content for casuals and PVPers and still remain competitive. Hardcore players will just have that extra oomph on their gears. That extra hardcore level though is a way for everyone to know that there's much more to the game if they choose to invest in it. The ultimate carrot on a stick.

Nothing worse in a MMO than having that feeling of "Now what?" and there's nothing else meaningful to do.

As for 40 man raids logistically, its all about competition. If there are a lot of guilds competing, players will spread too thin and recruiting will be a nightmare. If there are few, recruiting will be very easy. Doesn't matter if its 20 man or 40 man. The only problem with 40 man is the higher AFK and disconnect probability in the middle of a raid.

Are you certain though that 1-2% of hardcore players is preferable to let's say 15-20% slightly less but still decently hardcore?  We can move the dial slightly more or less in either direction but it seems somewhat arbitrary to me.  How do we come to the conclusion that 1-2% is the sweet spot?  Also, I don't think JK is suggesting hard content is undesirable, or that the devoted over-achiever is unwanted.

Originally posted by kitarad

If I had a penny for everytime someone has said they want to go back to vanilla WoW or Everquest when it launched I would have a lot of pennies but what I am saying is that there is a slice of the population who enjoy this. If a game is catering to a niche they will have to develop content for that niche if they want that niche to pay monthly. 

 

I think Carbine will continue to develop 40 man content because if they want those people to sub and play they will have to. They cannot afford not to since their population is not WoW size.

I think that merits a huge 'that depends' type response, Kit. Not that I don't see the strength of your view, but consider that Carbine's huge raid size marketing push may not be as effective as you might believe.  Perhaps other aspects of the game have had greater influence over their current upcoming playerbase.  Maybe a high percentage of raiders drawn to the game believe 40-man format will be abandoned quickly (even inevitably) in favour of what they view as the smaller yet better format of 20-man or even smaller sizes.  What if the playerbase, despite themselves, find that they prefer the 20-man raids?  Or what if Carbine notices 5-man dungeons and adventures appear to be the most popular group content and conclude that smaller group play is therefore most worthy of development priority?

What are the metrics?  We don't know.  I don't think even Carbine knows this yet.

Originally posted by stevebombsquad 

You can always tell the people that never actually raided by the comments they make.

Well, memory is malleable, and consensus is nearly impossible--especially it seems on the subject of MMORPGs. 

Perhaps we can agree that vanilla WoW was a time of innocence and naivete for mmo gamers; thus, hindsight is somehow through a distorted lens we all use.

Originally posted by Yoda_Clone
Originally posted by Kickaxe
Does anybody have a source for average retention numbers for MMORPGs?  I'm not having much luck finding anything terribly reputable.

Gamasutra used to have such numbers, but I haven't checked back on that site in years (used to be one of the original members).  They have long since reorganized their site several times and I have no idea what has been archived and what is still available for general search.

However, for a quick look, without even trying hard, I just googled "retention rates for MMORPGs":

For Social Games:
"An appropriate benchmark for duration is somewhere between two months and six months. That implies a churn of 15%-50% and a retention rate of 50-85%. According to flurry, for iOS and Android apps, 24% of customers continue using after three months. After 6 months, this percent shrinks to 14%, and, by 12 months, only 4% are left.
 
Raf Keustermanns of Plumbee also stated at the Social Games Summit 2011 that any dev should expect to lose 96% of their user base within 12 months. Playnomics have found that approximately 85% of players do not return after the first day."

From right here on MMORPG.com:
"...player retention rates, or even initial vs concurrent subscriber values, should be the governing factor in how successful an MMORPG is, because that by definition is how these games operate.

The example that many people seem to cite for 'failures' is Warhammer Online. They boasted 1.2 million boxsales, and the server closures and mergers was making headlines a few months later, and we can gather that the current subscriber base is somewhere around 300k, which is a comfortable operating margin for all purposes. Age of Conan went through a similar phenomenon, so let us say that the retention ratio for these games is .. 300,000 / 1,200,000 = 0.25."

(Academic study) Portland State University:
Long term study of behavior in Eve Online (beware: heavy reading)
http://www.thefengs.com/wuchang/work/cstrike/netgames07_long.pdf

(Academic study) University of Califoornia, Irvine:
Long term study of behavior in WoW (beware: heavy reading)
http://www.ics.uci.edu/~tdebeauv/files/2011-WoWretention.pdf

http://www.manaobscura.com/2012/01/20/swtor-the-retention-rate-question/
"...analysts have historically pegged Warcarft’s churn rate at around the same as Netflix with 4-5%. That article’s from nearly 5 years back though, so it’s unclear if this figure is still accurate. There’s also some research from Nick Yee (a research scientist at PARC). His own research (PDF link, ‘Building an MMO With Mass Appeal’, pg 292)  indicates that “only 40% of new subscribers remain in a game for more than two months”.

http://gamepolitics.com/2012/08/14/developer-thirty-percent-player-retention-rate-success-free-play-game
"Total War designer Jan van der Crabben offered a dire prediction for companies thinking of swimming in the free-to-play pond: expect a 70 percent drop in initial registered users.
 
From Gamescom:

"Crabben said that player retention is key to a free-to-play title's success and that most free-to-play games lose a freshly registered play in the first three minutes of play. If that player sticks around for more than four days, chances are he or she will be playing for a long time, Crabben says. Crabben added that a 30 percent retention rate for users should be considered very successful for any free-to-play game.
 
He goes on to say that the reward system in games like World of Warcraft is the best method for retaining players. In Wow he says users "kill stuff to get better to get more abilities to kill more stuff."

Nice work, Yoda.  Unsurprisingly, my google search yielded the same results.  Kind of all over the place numbers of dubious or not generic enough nature to contradict or verify DMKano's 60% number, was my feeling in not posting those links.  That Portland University Eve Online study was an interesting read, though.

But I think there is enough data there to show DMKano was not pulling numbers out of nowhere, anyway.

Originally posted by gervaise1

Not that many people buy a beach pass at all.

No numbers for TESO of course but regarding "the nature of sub based mmos" based on actual numbers released by developers / publishers:

SWTRO: 2.1M sales, 1.7M subscribers of which "just about half" were recurring subs; so 850k/2.1M = 40.4%

WAR: 750-800k initial sales; initial subs 300k. So 40% and below.

AoC: 800-850k initial sales; no actual initial sub numbers but based on their revenue results (back in 2008) max. initial subs - assuming 100% of the increased revenue was AoC related was c. 375k. So about 45% maximum.

So no smoke. Infact SoE, on one of EQ1's anniversary's (5th?), said that monthly churn was 60%. That's 60% loss a month. Which is why there were so many new xpacs - to bring people back.

 

And "the nature of sub based mmos" is that numbers continue to fall with drops after +1 month, +3 months and +6 months - when sub 20% is the norm. Again based on published data.

Doesn't mean that TESO isn't a "great game" just that "most people get bored and move on".

 

Edit: in a Gamasutra article just before TESO launched the writer - a game dev involved in publishing - said that they were using a 20% initial retention figure in their cost modelling.

 

 

A Grim reality for MMORPGs, indeed.  I think however, that part of the current problem for new MMOs like ESO is that SWTOR and GW2, and to a lesser extent FFXIV and Rift--perhaps a few others, are actually doing decently well in player churn and acquisition.  Definitely hard for me to support that belief since their is hardly any good insider data available, but I sure don't have any impression that ESO is breaking any sales records.  Recent WoW numbers appear more stable than the last couple of years also.  So, maybe there's just less MMORPG inclined players for the newer offerings.  More speculations for our oversaturated in speculation discussions.  :p

Originally posted by CoffeeBreak
Originally posted by svandy
Originally posted by CoffeeBreak

It's really starting to make sense now.  A lot of the vague insults are from players that prefer Tab Target>Mash Rotation/Priority.

 

I have to comment on this. How is TESO's combat ANY different? instead of tab, you are putting a cursor on something that you CAN'T MISS. Your arrows and fireballs will literally arc to hit the target. The addition of block is barely felt and hardly enough to claim the combat is "different"

 

If you think blocking, dodging, and interrupting attacks that can take half your health pool in one hit is barely felt difference then there probably isn't anything I can say to convince you.  Maybe when you're level 5 it really doesn't make a difference, but considering 2/3 of the game is the veteran content it makes the difference between whether or not you get killed in 2 seconds or you win the fight.

 

Maybe in games with dodging and blocking or games with mostly telegraphed combat like Wildstar you still run up and facetank everything.   That is definitely an option.

 

Personally, I would play past the low level content in a game before spending large amounts of time posting complaints in forums for a game and pretending I knew what I was talking about.  But that is your choice.  

Not sure what you're saying here.  In 'games with dodging and blocking [and no interrupts] or games with mostly telegraphed combat,' you mean?  Wildstar interrupts are supremely important as they generate a state on mobs that increases their vulnerability to damage (termed moment of opportunity by Carbine).  Granted there is no active blocking feature, so a certain type of complexity is not present in Wildstar combat.  It makes up for it in different ways though.  No, facetanking is not going to be your primary method of mitigation, unless you like the respawn VO taunts very much.

I also think Svandy's reply is quite relevant.  Whether hotkey/tab target, active dodge/block, or straight up turn based style combat, the individual experience, at least generally, is going to vary.  I really cannot see how an argument that suggests one combat style is superior (in difficulty, complexity, etc) to another can be sustained, except according to taste.  Each style can be made difficult or easy (or even complex or simple), depending on the combat design beyond merely character ability activation and movement opportunities.

Of course none of this should remove from the possibility that ESO combat is experienced as fun, or challenging, or complex, or better than this or that game.  Allow inverse to be true too (even if perception rails as if at paradox).

Originally posted by ohioastro
Originally posted by DMKano
Originally posted by Horusra
Originally posted by DMKano

At this point the vast majority of those interested have taken a swim got out and left the beach.

(such is the nature of sub MMOs - retention rates suck, 60%+ never go beyond the first month)

 

Is it fun making up numbers?

Is it fun not accepting reality?

 

Do you work for them and have hard numbers?  Because otherwise you're blowing smoke.

You guys are coming at DMKano pretty hard on this.  I find him to be one of the better posters on these forums, even if strongly critical at times.  Thus, I generally assume he has some substance to his assertions.  In this particular case I believe he is referencing a somewhat popular view that retention rates for MMORPGs are somewhere around 30% (fairly sure this is information derived from Blizzard regarding WoW).  So, DMK was being generous in his '60%+' number, if--big if, of course--you accept his assumption as anything approaching fact.  Keep in mind that he's not suggesting he has insider knowledge directly related to ESO data, but rather general data that can reasonably, though speculatively, be applied to all MMORPGs.

Does anybody have a source for average retention numbers for MMORPGs?  I'm not having much luck finding anything terribly reputable.

Originally posted by xdarkaix
Maybe it was just me, but he looked high off his ass during the whole thing, and he was half-assing the whole thing, he has no real interest in the game in the first place, so I don't really care about his review of the game in this case, having played the game myself I don't agree with most of what he had to say.

Not just you.  I like Joe, but he looks drunk or high in this video.  A bit embarrassing, really.

Helluva a lot of insane in this thread.

 

So there were some previews of a game's early levels.  Some of those previews were negative.  Maybe the full game will elicit a different response from those same previewers.  Maybe not.  We can only wait and see.

 

In the meantime shouldn't we pile as much baggage onto this topic as we can muster?

 

Ya, I know; it's history repeating itself.

Originally posted by didjerama

SWTOR is imbalanced as imbalanced goes. They admitted themselves they balance around lowest common denominator, not actual power of class/build. So if enough bads play certain class it will get buffed regardless if its op already in skilled players hand.

Ironically best balance was at launch and it only went downhill from there. PvP in SWTOR is sideattraction for PvEers, another gearset to grind out, nothing more.

In other games at least there were more viable classes, in SWTOR there are alpha classes (warriors/operative heal) and everyone else. Im defeated 90% times in PvP by - smash/sweep. [emphasis added]

I expect that you will have difficulty producing a source for that claim (highlighted).  I'm sure that it does not exist.

Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by Distopia

I consider jumping to conclusions freaking out, as with all things I'll wait and see.

I think it's better to be proactive and push for answers so people don't have to jump to conclusions.  You're just as guilty because you're concluding there isn't a problem until one makes itself known.  I'm open to possibilities either way, but I'm generally unwilling to give any game dev the benefit of the doubt when it comes to marketing.

Let them speak clearly about it.  Firor has been unwilling to do that and has said two different things in two different articles.  Did neither of the articles I linked cause you any concern or raise any questions?

Questions sure, I'm still unconvinced the game is even worth a sub, yet I'm not here saying it is or it isn't. Because I question it, I'm not seeing a whole bunch of questions being asked here though. I'm seeing a whole bunch of declarations.

Questioning may be good.  Fine.  But speculating should be acceptable, too.  And it's fine if you want to be a cautionary voice; if you're saying, 'keep an open mind; don't be dogmatic in your opinions.'  However, simply offering questions is hardly worthwhile when there is no response--or, at least, no timely response, until all is said and done.

 

To be fair, I'm sure that I'm not contradicting your intent, Distopia.  I think that you are referring to the more precipitously passionate voices.  But I thought some clarification was in order, nonetheless.

 

 

I really don't think that these publishers and developers do themselves any favours when they coyly let slip that an item mall will be appended to their sub plus box price payment model.  It is truism to say that they need money to operate but it has become apparent that some of the competition has demonstrated continuing viability under less steep payment models to their customers.

 

Yet somehow sub plus box price plus expansions is not enough to provide for services such as name changes and server transfers?  Or even more disappointing perhaps that additional items--weapons, armour, mounts, etc--cannot somehow be attainable solely within the game world, because additional income is so obviously a must that corrupted immersion is a justified cost?

 

It's getting difficult to sustain an argument that the sub model isn't simply about greed, with actions like these.  No item mall whatsoever is the way to go if you want to be taken for your word when you suggest scrupulous reasons for going sub model.

Originally posted by Razeekster
I am so happy to hear this. I am getting so sick and tired of nickel and dime cash shops. Guess what this means? NO HAVING TO PAY FOR EXTRA BAG SPACE OR FOR EXTRA HOTBARS (looking at you SWTOR)!
 

You are excited to pay a subscription cause it means you can avoid the free-to-play pitfalls of a game that also has a subscription option to avoid said pitfalls?

4 Pages 1 2 3 4 »