Originally posted by gladosrev2

Originally posted by Fargol

I have absolutely no doubt I'd get crushed by the "masters" of games like Starcraft, but it has far less to do with skill (as I define the term) and far more to do with their experience with the game and how well they research the best ways to win.

So by your definition, no 'skill' exists then, in any game or sport.

If you were following my trail of thought, this is exactly right.

"Skill" doesn't actually exist, because it is something based entirely on perspective. It is a self-defined concept entirely dependant on what the perspective viewer sees skill as.

Although I cringe when saying this, *technically* it would be true if someone were to say that a Cash Shop winner (Pay to Win player who payed the most) has the most skill because in real life he makes the most cash or is willing to spend the most, and cash = skill. Perhaps even gambling addiction = skill.

As awful as it sounds, Player Skill in a Pay to Win game would be defined as the ability to spend more of your income or the capacity to have income. That would be Player Skill.

Unfortunately, if any player were ever to find out that [Class]] was Overpowered and Specializing in [Stun Mechanic] gives a major advantage and currently the [Special Item] multiplies with [Other Item] giving an unfair advantage that will later be patch fixed, Player Skill will go hands down to the metagame master.

"Skill" doesn't exist because it is an incredibly vague and self-defined term. Pro Players would laugh at casual gamers for thinking Skill is about accuracy, reflexes, and twitch aiming. They know it's about map control, game balance exploitation, and knowledge of the variables which determine the winner. Pro Play is often based upon fighting over these specific variables. It's not a coincidence that League of Legends is strictly defined as a 1 top, 1 mid, 1 jungle, 2 bottom (support/carry) champion matchup which is never strayed from, and often the deciding factor is champion composition or dragon gank, not player skill. League of Legends pro play is actually extremely predictable, with certian points of the game determining the match.

Originally posted by BlahTeeb

I don't think you give enough credit to player skills. Especially in gaming.

You seem to think they are a joke or some sort of gimmick. Well there are two things to consider before laughing or joking about professional gamers. First and foremost, professionals DO NOT sit at home on their couches all day playing games. There are various groups of players who give interviews and blogs and they show that it takes plenty of hard work and almost sort of a business ethics to even get to the top.

Secondly, the reason why they are so praised is because of where they are. You have to understand that these professionals, no matter how lame, are competing at levels way beyond what normal gamers do. To this you may laugh, but do understand, they are professionals because they have consitently outplayed the majority of the human race. Think about that, roughly 7 billion people on this world, and only a handful are capable of playing at their level.

It doesn't matter if you play a game or a sport, what matters is that even on this crowded ass planet, they can do something better than 99.9% of the people.

What's worse is that you undermine intelligence... do you really not understand that it takes a whole cluster of high intelligence to get as far as we did with the human race? It isn't just some guy who reads a textbook and scores a better grade, it's about some guy who thought of something that NO ONE else on the planet is able to think about. That is why professionals in ALL sorts of fields are praised.

Actually, I am pretty sure ALL pro gamers have sat for many, many, MANY hours "on the couch all day playing games." This is kindof a requirement to get good at the game. Most video games take a minimum of scores of hours to eventually learn how to min/max/exploit or "game the system" a.k.a. learn the best strategies, best weapons, and the true way to winning.

Proof enough are the pro play videos, tournament commentary, and one pro quake player here at mmorpg.com who states the same thing that I have stated before: it isn't about player skill (fast aiming, accuracy, instant headshots) but instead about map control, mental timers for power-ups, etc. Knowledge and Experience about the metagame, knowing the best strategies, the *only* way to really play, is superior to any "skill" involved (whatever the definition of "skill" means).

Secondly, pro gamers aren't really praised. Most people still tend to laugh at the idea of professional gaming, and that doesn't just include jocks, but even real gamers- the brothers in arms of pro players.

Finally, you say "Only a couple of people are capable of playing at their level" citing that among the 7 billion of people in the world, only a few can "pro play" but this is entirely silly.

The vast majority of these 7 billion do not have electricity, computers, video games, internet, or the cognitive ability or computer experience to play video games competitively. You do realize that 7 billion people are not rich europeans? That 7 billion people include all human babies, toddlers, children, pre-teens, teens, the disabled, and those so old they dont even know how to turn a computer on....right?

Of those 7 billion who do have electricity, the internet, gaming experience, etc. how many of those have the time to devote over 80+ hours required to become a entry-level pro at any specific video game? I am a highly inteligent player and 80 hours is the bare minimum I have ever been able to enter at an ENTRY LEVEL in ranked games. The bare minimum to be able to whipe the floor when I enter a FPS server, or the bare minimum to compete in ladder games in RTS. Even then, I am a newb pro, being completely decimated by people who have THOUSANDS of games under their belt, as opposed to my hundred.

You realize that to be pro, not only do you have to have an insane amount of experience in the specific game, but you have to play A LOT. A single RTS game can last 20 minutes to several hours. In Company of Heroes, it took me 120 to 200 games before I was able to win most ranked matches. Against any REAL pro, I'd lose like a level 1 newb because although I had 120-200 games under my belt, they would literally have 2000, 3000, even more. It is NOT a coincidence that the pro players have clocked more hours in their single game of choice than most people ever do in all their games COMBINED.

If you were to take every human being on the planet, give them a supreme education in computers, gaming, etc. Then allow them to play over 1000 games, read over 100 guides on the genre, get over 10 years of experience playing their genre casually, etc.... then your sudden "Few of 7 billion" will turn into "Most of 7 billion."

Skill is actually more often than not based on experience more than anything else. It is proven in many different research articles that experience suprecedes talent. A 20 year veteran doctor (someone who has been a doctor for 20 years) of mediocre talent and IQ will be far superior at their job than a 2 year doctor with a genius level IQ. "Player Skill" amounts to next to nothing compared to Game Experience, Game Knowledge. And what is game knowledge? game experience? It's knowing how to win. It's knowing the tricks, the strategies, the exploitation of the game balance to push everything to your favor.

I am not someone who loses easily in any genre he plays. Why? I have over a decade of hardcore gaming experience. Thousands upon thousands of hours logged in every genre, hundreds of guides, articles, and conversations logged. I downloaded League of Legends, sucked, got better, and then read a single guide from a pro player and instantly became significantly better. Yet people with 1000+ games still whipe the floor with me, because they have read more guides, more games, more conversations. Player Skill is rather irrelevant, as just as it is in WoW or other MMORPG's--- level (experience) and gear (knowledge) matter far more than Skill ever will. This is even true in FPS games.

If it weren't true and I were wrong, then my knowledge of FPS games wouldn't allow me to kill people easily, such as when I dodge behind a wall and rush towards another entry point, I instantly know (based on my assessment that they are good players) that they will KNOW I am headed there, with their guns ready. This is why I turn directly around and do the opposite of what they know what I'm going to do. Since I have more EXPERIENCE playing, not player skill, I sneak up behind them with a knife despite them being an excellent player. EXPERIENCE allows you to predict other players. When the enemy player is just as or more experienced than me, this plan fails because they have already assessed my skill level and know the trick I am going to pull, covering this area and killing me the moment I reveal myself or vanishing to fight another time. Because they know how to play. They know how the guns work, they know to run from a Shotgun and pick a better time to fight instead, they know to avoid until that grenade is used, they know to spam AR rockets because it's OP.

Originally posted by Moaky07

Geez....another thread created that is attempting to negatively stereotype  those that enjoy something the OP doesnt. Who wudda thunk it?

Rash assumptions from an ignorant person. I don't think I ever stated my own preference or opinion a single time in this thread. In fact, I merely stated that I, a roleplayer, often don't read the text. I never stated I did not enjoy it when I did, the reasons I skip the text, or if I had a desire or not to abolish writers in MMORPG's.

Typically the OP of many threads starts a conversation, not to discuss his own beliefs and force others in check with a closed mind, but to start interesting conversation and listen to other people's opinions or thoughts on the matter. This is often done through different tactics or strategies to get responses out of people.

Needlessly gloating and pretending to be intelligent by sarcastically predicting someone who you arrogantly think is predictable...is simple childish at best. I'm sorry, but fail. Total fail.

If you would like to know my opinion, simply ask. Assumptions never do anyone good, especially if you're looking for evidence to support your assumptions. (Assumptions are not evidence enough to support your other assumptions, just in case you thought differently...)

Negatively stereotype? The only people I negatively stereotype are those who refuse to read. Since you assume I, the OP, do NOT enjoy reading quest text ("something the OP doesnt [enjoy]") I assume that you think I'm negatively stereotyping the readers and the more intelligent, mature roleplaying crowd. Quite the opposite of reality indeed....

Might I suggest re-reading the Original Post and making sure you void yourself of all assumptions first?

Originally posted by grimfall

Originally posted by Khrymson

 

So those of us that do read the text can answer the lazy fools in general chat later on.  What makes it fun though is to relay misinformation and make them waste even more time trying to complete select quests.  Although that doesn't work as well anymore since there are quest helpers in most MMOs now, but in the past it was too funny when misleading others.

LOL.  I think that the OP is mistaken about how few people read the text for quests.  I'd guess it's around 40%, depending on the game, the quality of the writing and the amount of text.

Seeing as how the vast majority of people who play WoW are children...

I really don't believe your "40%".

Any real evidence to suggest this imaginary number?

My belief is based on real evidence of the overwhelming amount of people I've talked to who all countlessly click through quests ASAP and never read them, not to mention the hundreds of conversations people themselves start saying how they never read the quest text, void of any influence from me.

Originally posted by ste2000

I always said that MMORPGs do not require Quests (at least not so many), it is a waste of development time.

They should implement more sandbox features in the games and just few MEANINGFUL main storylines, the rest of the content should be made by players.

I love RPGs and when I play the single player ones (Skyrim, Dragon Age, Mass Effect) I read all the quests.

In MMORPG I skip all of the reading, and if I can all the quests alltoghetr, as long there is enough group content.

MMORPG players who "love" quests and stories should stick with single player RPGs, maybe developers will stop creating MMOs which are played for 1 or 2 months only.

This guy wins this thread.

I'm not sure what to make of this thread.

I guess the person is happy? In my mind, I can only think "Uh...idk?" because there are millions of people who earn significantly more, billions who earn significantly less, and I myself would feel awkward if I were to brag about the said above wages since I make more by myself than they do combined, working probably 1/4th the hours?

And I don't even feel I make enough, lol.

Where are the rest of the bills? Taxes, Food Cost, Cost of Living, Gas Mileage, Electric Bill, Gas Bill, Water Bill, Bill Bills, Health Insurance, etc. etc.???

What about the cost of owning an expensive car (even a cheap car is expensive)? Cost of buying furniture? Repair Bills? Car Maintenance? Cost of having to buy appliances? Hire technicians to fix problems? Idk, it just seems like a ton is missing. Perhaps they have not yet moved in together, lived alone, or gotten on with life and its never-ending bills?

Rent, Car Insurance, Cell Phone? This sounds like the bills of someone who lives in a dorm or with their parents, lol.  Where are the real bills???

I agree with Aelfinn. Although it is very hard to resist, and depending on the show, I may or may not wait until the *perfect* time to watch it.

I prefer to actually wait until my favorite series is completely finished so I can watch all 12 episodes in a row, usually in a single week (or sometimes even over 2 day weekend marathon).

I love Game of Thrones and am VERY excited, but I will NOT be waiting for it to end before watching it. I love the series, but it isn't like the rest where I cannot wait for the next episode. It's one of my favorite shows, and it's amazing, but it isn't DEXTER or TRUE BLOOD, so I can wait.

As for Dexter / True Blood-- the best shows EVER, I wait until they're over first.

Betty White passed away quietly in her Hollywood home during the night. You will be missed, thank you for being a friend!

R.I.P. Betty White

Originally posted by Khrymson

 

So those of us that do read the text can answer the lazy fools in general chat later on.  What makes it fun though is to relay misinformation and make them waste even more time trying to complete select quests.  Although that doesn't work as well anymore since there are quest helpers in most MMOs now, but in the past it was too funny when misleading others.

lol, nice :P

I have looked all over google and am perplexed as to how warriors carry spiked weapons. Flanged maces, Morning Stars, Flails, Spiked Clubs, etc.

It is not as simple to just sheath it like a sword, nor can you simply place it on your back (and even if you did, what would hold it  on you?) but even in depth googling doesnt help because of the other types of "morning stars" or "mace" (pepper spray) that exist flood the results. I know there are some real life medieval weapons/armor experts here or historians that might know the answer.

What other goofs are in MMORPG's? I know of a few so far...

1) Platemail is super heavy and bogs you down with weight, making you slow and stupid. This is actually wrong, as I've been told platemail is almost like wearing light armor due to its flexibility, and that the rolls dodges and dives in video game cinematics are actually entirely possible in platemail. Chainmail, however, is very heavy!

2) Platemail and Chainmail are from two different eras.

(I learned this from this website, so thank you historians and experts! :P)

There are also ways to design a game to fix flaws in an otherwise interesting system.

For example, many people would state that others would hoard finite resources and eventually there wouldn't be any. Those without much thought into the design would even say that people would gather resources and unsubscribe, destroying said resources forever.

Fortunately for game designers, there is always a solution: the use of our brains.

There are many ways you could fix the flaws of finite resources. Just off the top of my head, I can think of several.

Permadeath, Full Loot, FFA PvP, Sieges + Characters or their Castles/Banks/Houses not being able to go Offline

Community Ownership + Some of the Above

Time Based Taxation- Easiest and best solution. Every day, week, month, [time] the "king" taxes everyone. If you hoard forever, you will eventually have nothing. You can hoard forever only if you work forever to regain what you lose. Taxation causes hoarding to instantly be eliminating, giving 100% insurance that the finite resources circulate. Players do not benefit from hoarding unless the strategy is immediate (a short amount of time hoarding to profit more than taxation).

Item Decay, Upkeep Cost, etc- Similar to taxation, but requires resources to prevent decay.

Originally posted by Pilnkplonk

Originally posted by Ankur

Originally posted by causs

Originally posted by LeegOfChldrn

 

*Snip*

Really, I find the whole concept of "Player Skill" pretty laughable. Most pro play in any game genre is almost entirely based on abusing exploits in game mechanics, min/maxing based on the (typically ONE) way to play the game. When I really think about it, all "Skill" is pretty meaningless and laughable, no matter what you're competing in or playing.

*Snip*

Say what? So you would say that in sports, athletes just exploit and use almost no skill? Because e-sports is exactly the same. And no, it's all skills. Look up League of Legends, Starcraft, DotA, Call of Duty, Unreal etc. And tell me they 'exploit'. Really.. some people.

Please don't compare a person clicking the mouse to athletes who acually make use of every muscle in their body and really really work hard physicaly and mentaly on daily basis. Sitting on couch on your ass whole day and clicking mouse doesn't make you an athlete. Jeez.

Don't be daft. Chess is an olympic sport.

We're not too far off making professional video gaming an olympic sport. I'm sure the pro tournaments with millions of dollars flowing through have really influenced things, even if only slowly.

Originally posted by laokoko

need more voice actor!

that would be nice actually.

Even more, it is very surprising how cheap voice actors are. If a large portion of a budget is wasted on voice actors, it's typically because they hire overpriced (well known, famous, popular) voice actors instead of people of equivalent talent with normal prices.

I once asked a professional voice actor who could do scores of unique voices himself, how much it would cost to provide voice acting for over 1200 lines of dialogue, and it came down to about $1200. So for that measily amount of investment I could provide full voice acting to scores of /emotes for tons of races/classes. He also stated that the more I needed, the cheaper it would get and vice versa.

Suddenly $1 per line becomes $0.50 per line. Fun stuff really, and incredibly cheap compared to what it would cost me.

Originally posted by fivoroth

Originally posted by Ankur

Originally posted by fivoroth

Lol w0t? It's only FPS. Go play Starcraft 2 and lets see if you can get into grandmaster league. But again I am pretty sure I will be the one laughing when you can't even get into gold league. That game is all about player skill. 

/facepalm

You just proved what he was saying.

So his theory that there's no player skill and that people only exploit the game is proved by my Starcraft example>?

You might want to take a step back and try to find in my post where I stated "there is no player skill" in video games.

1) I never said there is absolutely no skill. Please do not jump to rash assumptions and instead read and comprehend what you read as it is stated. If someone says "There is almost no skill involved..." they are not stating there is no skill involved. The word "Almost" changes the sentence and actually communicates that skill IS involved.

2) Multiple times in this thread I have made it clear that "Player Skill" is based on perspective and isn't a real thing because the definition if self-defined and different for every game.

3) Once more, since I believe you need to read it, I never said there is no skill involved at all. Instead, I stated that there is more skill in exploiting the rules (often mathematics / combat calculations)  than there is in what people typically believe is player skill (fast clicking, reaction time, memory management, whatever).

4) Typically, Pro Players of RTS games are NOT also Pro PLayers of FPS games. Very often pro players of one specific game do not qualify for the end of tournaments for a different FPS game. (Just the same as basketball players who turn into golfers do not have equivalent success in the latter than they did in the former).

Should I even go on? You have already proven me right with your post and shown yourself to fail to understand what I have even stated. Nowhere will you find me stating what you claim, that "there's no player skill and that people ONLY exploit the game".

Originally posted by Worstluck

Pretty tall soapbox mate.  I hope you have some thick glasses in order to see us down here!

 

How you went from talking about how WoW pvp is finely tuned to the downfall of our public education system is beyond me.  I suppose on second thought those two statements are somewhat related.

 

EDIT:  Oh looks like you removed the wow pvp stuff.  Ahh well.  Have fun!

My apologies, I did not remove anything but finished my rant. I had posted far too early by accident as in the middle of my post, my cat clicked "Post Message" before I was finished.

Originally posted by Ankur

Originally posted by causs

Originally posted by LeegOfChldrn

 

*Snip*

Really, I find the whole concept of "Player Skill" pretty laughable. Most pro play in any game genre is almost entirely based on abusing exploits in game mechanics, min/maxing based on the (typically ONE) way to play the game. When I really think about it, all "Skill" is pretty meaningless and laughable, no matter what you're competing in or playing.

*Snip*

Say what? So you would say that in sports, athletes just exploit and use almost no skill? Because e-sports is exactly the same. And no, it's all skills. Look up League of Legends, Starcraft, DotA, Call of Duty, Unreal etc. And tell me they 'exploit'. Really.. some people.

Please don't compare a person clicking the mouse to athletes who acually make use of every muscle in their body and really really work hard physicaly and mentaly on daily basis. Sitting on couch on your ass whole day and clicking mouse doesn't make you an athlete. Jeez.

The sole fact you consider athletics a "higher skill" or real skill compared to mouse clickers proves my point.

What determines "Player Skill" is perspective, is a joke, is laughable. Someone who is stronger than other people is suddenly more skilled than someone with experience playing 1 specific video game alot and abusing mechanics with some talent involved? (The talent of abusing those mechanics, of course).

Although I do applaud you for showing this poster that Athletes cannot exploit or min/max (although they sometimes try, with steroids, or intense training) and Athletics are more about inante (body) talent/composition more than about experience/knowledge of metagame.

Athletes do not exploit and use "no skill" because you cannot alter physics, which make up the majority of the game rules. You can, however, exploit the hell out of computer program code because it DOES have specific well defined rules. They also do not use "no skill" and exploit when they play sports or olympic feats simply because "Player Skill" isn't real. It's simply a concept which is laughable at best.

Throw a pro football player in a battlefield, and soon his "player skill" is nothing compared to the veterans alongside him.

Throw a Starcraft 2 champion in a bakery and ask him to make an amazing tasting pie.

Ask a Counter Strike champion to play Call of Duty and do just as good.

Tell a League of Legends player to play a low ELO gimped champion and win entirely because of "player skill".

Player Skill is irrelevant when those units in a video game mathematically calculate a loss before gameplay occurs. And to be honest, if Pro Play in League of Legends is almost entirely about "denying" a dragon or "getting lucky on a gank" and a few key events determine the winner, it's obvious that the goal is about exploiting Gold Accumulation far more than it is about "Player Skill" and that "Player Skill" can more specifically be defined as "Deny Skill" far more than it would be considered the ability to accurately, quickly, and intelligent play a character in a fight.

You're the best of the best of the best? I'm sorry, but you have a knife. I'm holding a gun. Game over.

Originally posted by causs

Originally posted by LeegOfChldrn

 

*Snip*

Really, I find the whole concept of "Player Skill" pretty laughable. Most pro play in any game genre is almost entirely based on abusing exploits in game mechanics, min/maxing based on the (typically ONE) way to play the game. When I really think about it, all "Skill" is pretty meaningless and laughable, no matter what you're competing in or playing.

*Snip*

Say what? So you would say that in sports, athletes just exploit and use almost no skill? Because e-sports is exactly the same. And no, it's all skills. Look up League of Legends, Starcraft, DotA, Call of Duty, Unreal etc. And tell me they 'exploit'. Really.. some people.

Watch some pro play FPS games. The players actually have mental timers on when certain weapons/power-ups respawn, and base their gameplay on that.

The commentators will literally say that solely based on (insert power-up) being denied by their opponent, the player won the game.

While it is certainly true that some games are different than others and require different skills to play competitively, there is always an exploitative min/maxing.

Take League of Legends for example. A game where min/maxing and exploiting game mechanics is more obvious than other games. In Pro Play, certain champions are forbidden. I am not even talking about the bans of powerful champions. I am talking about the fact many champions are a joke to play in pro tournaments, because they are inferior champions. Now take mechanics: such as stuns. It is not a coincidence that many of the more popular champions in tournaments can stun. Being able to stun is a very, very powerful mechanic.

If you think that "player skill" is the majority, then pro players wouldn't find certain weapons, champions, items, etc. to be a joke. It is NOT uncommon to find professional gamers all using the same weapons, same tactics, same strategies, same counters, same tricks, same exploits, same "player skill", etc.

Pro play isn't even about the ability to get instant headshots off with quick reaction, as much as it is about knowing the metagame, game experience with the mechanics, and experience with how the game plays out based on min/maxing the code underneath.

Originally posted by fivoroth

Lol w0t? It's only FPS. Go play Starcraft 2 and lets see if you can get into grandmaster league. But again I am pretty sure I will be the one laughing when you can't even get into gold league. That game is all about player skill. 

LOL........ the epitome of what I am talking about :)

I always thought it was funny when people almost raged when talking about "Player Skill" as if people incapable of faster mouse clicks or accurate reaction FPS skills are inferior to someone with a talent for theory-crafting or min/maxing their character specialization, balancing their budget / earning gold for their item accumulation, or simply someone who spends more time in the game than others.

Typically this idea that "Player Skill" is solely derived from FPS skillz br0 came across my mind when thinking of the forums just before Darkfall's initial release, people bashing "carebears", and the constant "bro" crowd which states that ALL mmorpgs would be 100x better with FPS aiming and untargeted spell casts like a FPS game.

Really, I find the whole concept of "Player Skill" pretty laughable. Most pro play in any game genre is almost entirely based on abusing exploits in game mechanics, min/maxing based on the (typically ONE) way to play the game. When I really think about it, all "Skill" is pretty meaningless and laughable, no matter what you're competing in or playing.

Even in real life, intelligence makes one man no more valuable a human than the next. Although the world seems to be impressed by people who can jump higher, run faster, or solve complex math problems rapidly, those people are no more important (arguably less) than many of the "lesser" capable grunts working jobs which are requirements for what society considers "modern living" such as electricians, chinese factory workers, farmers, and plumbers.

I created this thread initially from reading another thread where someone (of many I've seen before) upset that time invested in MMORPG's is more important than other forms of skill. Although I severely dislike games which make players more powerful based solely on their time (as opposed to decisions, talents in other areas, etc.) if I were not a quick reaction player with a lot of gaming experience across all genres, I'd probably think very positively of time progression. After all, why is it fair that one man rofl-stomp others in PvP simply because their brain works differently than yours? That's hardly fun or entertaining. You could however argue the opposite-- why should they beat me when they are clearly inferior players? To each his own, and honestly I'd love to see games which promote a little bit of everything, which I think is what the mainstream has done.

WoW PvP is a great example of this fine tuned balance, IMO. In WoW, a player can be the best solely by time invested (level, gameplay experience), by reaction and FPS skills (such as the difference between those who click to cast and those who WASD or use a gamepad or gaming mouse or complex macros),  by simply being the overpowered class (especially in low levels, some classes are rofl-stompingly ridiculously unbalanced), or by getting the right gear or having the right social connections to achieve all of the above.

My biggest problem though, are the min-maxers who exploit EVERYTHING they can for easy wins, despite it taking a large amount of the fun (challenge) out of the game. Those who not only are great players with tons of gaming experience, but also stack this high advantage WITH overpowered classes, AND heavy time investment, MULTIPLIED by gear perfection, twinking, etc.

It is one thing to have tons of different ways to be great at a game. It is entirely another to stack every single advantage on top of one another becoming an overwhelmingly powerful force that can singlehandedly change the battlefield and make the experience of the other 1-19 players an absolutely boring, frustrating, or needlessly unchallenging waste of their time.

WIth this said, WoW is also a great example of a system where someone obsessed with winning at all costs against opponents who provide 0 challenge can rofl-stomp their way to ruining everyone else's fun.

This complaint I am making reminds me of a FPS game I was playing. The server was full, and everyone would normally have a blast but this 1 person was so good, so experienced, with so much a better score than everyone else (they would kill others the moment they'd appear) that the entire server, including his own team, voting to kick him and succeeded. I was the one who initiated the vote. Why? Because out of the 12 people playing, only 1 was having fun while the rest of the 11 were playing on an entirely lower level. This 1 player literally was "so good" he ruined the game for everyone else. His team never got to kill anyone or even fight, because he would kill everyone all across the map. The enemy wouldnt even get to play, as they'd die the moment BEFORE he'd even appear on screen. The moment this player was kicked, against his wishes, everyone started having a blast, providing each other with very challenging gameplay. Even though there were several clear bad players and several clear good ones, the differentiation was not as massive anymore, and even the bad players could have fun enough.

Finally, I'd just like to add that even though I am a huge nerd, I still think people who "pro play" any video game are a laughing stock and a shame on the gaming scene solely because they are exploiting game mechanics and programming balance instead of providing themselves with a form of entertainment focused on having fun as opposed to competition. Although it is fun for them (the only reason I dont think ill of them or suggest NOT having said tournament) I still think it is all quite the joke.

Of course, this is also coming from the same person who thinks those who worship celebrities and make sport players their personal heroes are what I would call the "bottom of the gene pool". No offense, but LOL @ being payed millions and become worshiped for being able to run really fast or catch a ball better than other people. Although I am probably an "elitist" I think that REAL heroes deserve the credit and self-obsessed people who do nothing for society but "pro play" do more harm than good. I mean, it's not like the best teachers are payed millions of dollars and drafted to "pro teach" or anything. Right? Right? It's not like public education suffers due to low pay and atheltic scholarships often trump any form of intellectual persuit. Right? Right? Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

Originally posted by Thrennie

Yet another two from blizzard kinda got me laughing.

 

http://eu-blizzard.com/en-gb/games/zergotchi and http://eu-blizzard.com/store/details.xml?id=221003857

http://eu.blizzard.com/en-gb/games/zergotchi/

http://eu-blizzard.com/store/details.xml?id=221003857