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All Posts by LeegOfChldrn

All Posts by LeegOfChldrn

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355 posts found

Instead of spouting the obvious (DAoC, UO, Shadowbane) I'll say something else I miss.


Was? Champions Online Beta PvP.

Before release, heroes felt like heroes. It was amazingly well balanced, the games were extremely fun, and no one was able to exploit the hell out of obviously overpowered abilities. Instead, everyone was incredibly hard to kill and each match felt incredibly heroic. A match would end with 1-3 kills maximum. At release, people died just as fast as any other MMORPG, and I left after the 1st month due to how horrendously unbalanced PvP was. Tier1 wasnt as bad (it was still bad) but Tier2 was so ridiculously unbalanced that anyone with EGO BLADES would literally kill a full tank in 2-3 hits, which is about 0.1seconds. Those with super strength couldnt even out damage regen.


To Come? My future PvP game, which wont release until after my PvE game :P

Darkfall 2.0, by the sound of it, will be released at the same time or shortly after Guild Wars 2.



Because it's JUST like a developer to release their revived reattempt at gathering subscribers at the EXACT point no one cares anymore.


Also, the timelines seem to match up IMO.

I really believe that there should be GM's running every server. The cost would be great, but the extra subscribers would make it worthwhile IF it was a feature that set it apart from other games.

OR, have would be as simple as this:


Take WoW, as it is.

Create a new server in WoW, with 2-4 GM's who run events at specific times during the day (Lunchtime, Evening, Primetime, and Late Day). Even if 4 GM's were hired, 1000 players paying an extra $15 would fix this.

With WoW's servers, I dont know the population, but perhaps it is 20,000 for this server. For $1 extra per month, with a minimum of 20k on the server, they could profit off of 4 GM's making 40k a year.


Do you think people would be willing to pay $1 extra a month for a server that always has 1 GM online 24/7? A GM that spawns special raids, invades towns, performs parties, offers contests, items, possesses NPCs, or participate in PvP, etc.

What if they were willing to pay $30 / month for a "Special Priviledge Server"? It actually would only cost $0.67 cents to hire 4 GM's @ 40k a year for a server of 20k players subscribing per month. So that's a profit of $14.33 per month extra for having this "special server."

A single $1 per month can make a HUGE difference. Imagine the features we could have if people were willing to pay $30 / month instead of $15. $16 instead of $15. $18 instead of $15.


All the rest of the servers could be normal, with $15/ month being the norm. If costs for GM's ever got too large, servers could get shut down and players get free transfers. Obviously it would be like any normal server shutdown for BLIZZARD, as ANY server that gets shut down probably means layoffs, server transfers, etc.

Yet if this was hugely successful and ppl were willing to pay $1, $5, or even $15 extra for special awesome servers, an overloaded population every night could slowly add more servers one at a time until populations are medium to high.


20k subscribers isn't that many for WoW, or a WoW server. You have to remember that Subscribers != Current Players. The amount of players on a single server is a very small % of total subscribers for that server.

In another thread I created, I had read a comment that was quite interesting. The person stated "Why does PvP always have to revolve around Combat?" They made a good point.


What other types of PvP would you like to see, besides pure combat? This could include features or designs which add PvE elements as well. For example, if there was heavy emphasis on Trade PvP (idk how that would happen!) then obviously a large part of the game would involve Trade PvE (harvesting, crafting, trading, etc.)

So what game designs would you like to see in a MMORPG, that might include untraditional forms of PvP?

What untraditional forms of PvP would be fun for you?

A lot of these "problems" aren't real problems for any real game designer. Without going further into the 'problems' I'll just address the "bigger problem" with what IMO is an obvious solution, showing that most of the "problems" stated in this thread aren't real problems at all.

For example, players possessing a large amount of monsters (larger than the party, or the entire dungeon) and all of them running to the front to roflstomp the players the moment they load in. This is the silliest problem, as the solution is simple: Don't let them do that. I honestly don't understand why so many people create problems with an idea and 'warn' designers but dont go and think abou the extremely simple solutions (such as "Just dont let them do that.")

It can be as simple as movement restrictions or the players can only possess monsters  within a radius of the players,spawn monsters at certain checkpoints, or as simple as making a timer for spawning.


This idea gets a lot of originality from the innovative design of Left 4 Dead's VS mode. To me, saying there are these "problems" and stating it would be like telling the Left 4 Dead developers that VS mode is a problem because players will possess the strongest zombies or horde and focus-fire the best players first, kill the players the moment they leave the building, etc. Silly stuff for me to hear.

As in Left4Dead, the monsters are SUPPOSE to be significantly weaker than the players. The point is that they do damage over time, widdling down the player to prevent them from completing their objective. This eventually ends in a huge boss fight (the Tank) followed by a last desperate attempt to stop them.

Once again, this game mechanic might have problems but none of what was spoken here is a problem that can't easily by handled. Another simple fix to the majority of "problems" stated here would be to make the game VERY similar to Left4Dead, where a full group of players VS a full group of Monster Players, and they go through the dungeon.


Finally, I'd like to say that in MY system, besides some of the above simple solutions, there are other things I'd like to address. People would say the Monsters would just focus fire the Healer. Well...that is just a part of PvP... you can do whatever you want. That's kindof the point, and exactly what happened in DAoC. However, in MY games, I don't believe in healing.

My RPG designs tend to be far more lethal, with support characters providing alternatives to healing, healing spells being rare and extremely powerful (not often used), and player's wounds suffered in a dungeon would put them at a disadvantage, to the point that they might have their objective change from capturing treasure or completing a quest-- to escaping with their lives. Other alternatives of mine for healing would be tiers of health in which a healer cannot exceed once damaged past said tier. So a healer may heal 1000 HP out of 4000 HP, up until the player reaches 3000 HP and their health drops a tier, and so they no longer can be healed above 3000HP due to suffering a severe wound.

Such a system (limited healing) is perfect for Monster Play in Dungeons. The Monster's goal is to make the players either run away or to kill them, by slowly widdling them down until they unleash a devastating monster, sub boss, boss, or trap. To deny their dungeon experience, with a bonus for killing any hero before they escape. Each dungeon would have its own objective of course, making it clear to both PvP sides what needs to be accomplished for victory/defeat. This could become very interesting if the Monster's goals suddenly changed from killing the player to participating in the same dungeon against NPC monsters to reach teh same goal. A player band sets out in a dungeon of giant spiders to capture a powerful artifact. At the same time, a band of Orcs have entered at another entrance to get the same artifact.

PvP (as opposed to MvP) could be introduced as well, or even PvPvM, such as multiple player groups go into a dungeon to achieve an artifact, with the Monsters being played by players as well.


Whether or not ALL monsters would be playable, Monster Players would play as Monster Heroes (like in Left4Dead) and use weaker NPC monsters to assist them by patience, or a mix of both, I don't know. It's just an idea with a multitude of paths that one could take, with most of the "problems" being fixed by simply not allowing players to abuse or exploit the system. Small restrictions on movement or special ways of handling monster player spawns or limited population would resolve most of these problems.

I understand there are many players like me who love both, a lot of players who are hardcore PvP maniacs, and I assume a lot who don't like PvP at all and want a great PvE experience. I actually want to ask the players around here who aren't big fans of PvP, if this system is any different than other games with optional PvP (WoW, SWTOR, Rift, Everquest2). I'd also like to ask the big PvP fans here if this system would turn them off because it isn't full PvP, it isn't DAoC, it isn't Battlegrounds.


The Setting- a heavy PvE game like Everquest, Vanguard, WoW, UO, whatever have you. Whatever type you like; the important part is that it's mainly a PvE game. The dungeons, dangerous zones, etc. are a very big focus of the game.

The PvP- Instead of Battlegrounds, Frontier, FFA, or Flagging PvP....there is no actual Player vs Player combat. Instead, every dungeon, dangerous zone/area, has an option where players can play as the Monsters. Any dungeon in the game, players can spawn as a NPC horde member or NPC hero. Even the bosses are playable.

The Players, PvE, are not forced into this PvP. The players actually choose to go into a PvE dungeon or a PvP version. If the game is instanced, then there would be two instances for every dungeon- a PvE version and a PvP version. If the game is seamless, then some dungeons are PvP and some aren't.

Whatever the option, the system takes a heavy portion from LOTRO's Monster Play, but with a heavy mini-game with collectible monsters, monster points, equipable upgrades, and even Boss Tokens to play as epic dragons, etc.


The Restrictions-- Depending on the dungeon, the Monster Players may have restrictions. This can be anywhere from movement, population limitation (no more than 5 Monster Players in one area, or NPC's are "possessed" so if there are none available then you cant play). If the player idles, the NPC automatically takes an action to prevent idling for easy kills, or perhaps instead Monster Players are in additon to NPC's and killing them doesnt provide bonuses (so no exploitation) just increased difficulty for the dungeon adventurers (and with PvP option enabled, better rewards or PvP specific rewards).

Monster Heroes suffer permadeath and are collectibles, upgradable, equipable, etc. You collect them like Pokemon and they come and go very often. They are purchased with Monster Points, upgraded with these points, etc. During normal PvE, in addition to treasure, players may be rewarded with Monster Hero collectibles or Boss Tokens. This is to encourage PvE players to try out PvP without any real loss (as they probably wouldnt care if they lost their Monster Heroes if they had 10 from adventuring and rarely did PvP.


This feature would be expanded upon to not only include player dungeons (where players make their own dungeons and collect monsters and treasure to fill the dungeon), player collectibles and monster points, dungeons, and free-roam monster zones, but the ability for players to participate in Monster Invasions of towns. A GM event or NPC event occurs where monsters invade a city, and players can pick either Monster or Player side (and they are locked out of the other side for the rest of the battle or for time restriction).


What do you PvPers think?

What do you PvErs think?

What do you PvE PvP players think?

Player acknowledge what type of player you are primarily (Mostly PvP, Mostly PvE, or a good amount of both)

What's the point? Really? Really? Seriously? Really?


I guess us gamers who play video games for fun are a dying breed.

I still find it hilarious that people don't realize you can get banned simply for being reported.

I haven't been banned since (I have rejoined the LoL community for the last 2 months) but my original ban was without reason.


What people fail to realize is that all you need to have done is


1) Get reported for no reason, typically by multiple people on a team (or a full team of trolls). Either for doing nothing, or for not switching lanes or giving in to newbie kid's demands and saying "No thanks."

2) Get a kid in the tribunal to judge your case. Instant vote ban based on # of reports in a single match. (People are very likely to ban if the entire enemy team reported them for no reason). This is a flawed system where kids can judge you.

3) Get a lazy Riot employee or the reality that they probably don't review or spend very much time reviewing banned players.



I originally never said a word outside of communicating with the team or saying to a kid "No thanks" or "No that is a bad idea." and was still banned without reason. While many here question if I was guilty or not, I knew I wasn't. I haven't had this happen again because in higher levels there aren't as many kids to falsely report you.

This game's community is still god-awful, but seems better as time went on half a year later. Like I said, this is mostly due to being higher level now.

LOL @ anyone who thinks this system is perfect and innocent people aren't banned on a daily basis. Kids report, Kids judge, and Kids condemn.

How many here are in favor of Attrition for Characters in a MMORPG?


Food & Water were a requirement in Everquest, and many players state that they loved this. They'd love to see this return.

WoW is hailed as casual-friendly for getting rid fo the requirement for food and water, much to the joy of many players.


What do you think?

What system would you add, change, or remove if you were to have attrition? Is it just for Food/Water, or should there be a plethora of options such as clothing, weather, etc.?

Originally posted by ActionMMORPG

So getting killed and losing all your stuff isn't an issue because all the stuff is replaceable.


The one failing I see in this is that players who died and got their stuff stolen are at least somewhat likely to turn off the game, cancel subscription, and find something else to play.


I can't see a game that has basic mechanics encouraging people to quit being described as casual-friendly.

People who play a game fully aware that they can lose all of their gear don't stop playing because they lost their gear or died.


People stop playing for far more reasons than that, including...


1) Lack of progression, which always occurs in a non-decay non-loot non-permadeath game. Eventually you hit max level with max gear. In a loot game you are always getting good gear, always progressing. In a permadeath game, you are NEVER not progressing.

2) Repeated spawn camping, repeated deaths, inability to win, repeated loss, extensive time wasting in repetitive losing.--- all in a short amount of time, or in an accumulating short amount of time many different times until patience disappears. Any game can encourage this, from softcore WoW to hardcore Darkfall. The only game that wouldn't encourage repetition in losing would be a game with permadeath, designed around players not dying easily. This would make losing in a permadeath game a rarity even for bad players, making it the only game that doesn't allow repetitive losing in a short amount of time. Of course, in that game a loss is WORSE so it might have equivalent frustration (dying 3 times in a permadeath might be as frustrating as repeatedly dying 300 times in WoW or losing 30 matches in a row).

3) Boredom. Can happen in any game, no matter what.

4) Performance Issues.

5) Other reasons.


Losing your gear in a game where gear isn't as important? I have actually never heard of, encountered, or even assumed a player would quit because of this. Ultima Online had people lose some of the most valuable things, and that might make them really frustrated to quit for a few days or a week-- but quiting the game ENTIRELY? That requires something completely different: boredom, realization it is a waste of excessive amounts of time for less fun, etc.

If you like a game, you stay despite small frustration.

If you don't really like the game, you will leave for reasons far surpassing a little gear loss, or even permadeath.



The ONLY situation I can see someone rage quitting a video game is if they never realized it was a [FFA Loot, Permadeath, Harsh Death Penalty, whatever etc.] game.  They enter the game and dont realize they can lose their gear, so they quit. They enter the game and dont realize there is permadeath, so they quit upon death. This is based on ignorance, which is the player's own fault.

Any other time, they will quit because the game is boring, time sink requirements, or uninteresting gameplay. If the game takes 1 year to max a character AND is has permadeath, they will quit after death, but not because of permadeath. Because it's a bad video game that requires a RIDICULOUS amount of time sink to progress. If the game loses your gear, and your gear takes a month to get and you cant win PvP without that gear, you will quit bc of bad design. If the game has permadeath and the character creation process and low level gameplay is insanely repetitive and boring, they will quit bc of repetition and boredom. But if a game is fun, addicting, and a quality design-- it doesnt matter if you lose or win, you will keep playing until it gets boring.


Else the MOBA genre wouldn't be so insanely popular, despite it being one of the most frustrating genre of games in existence, with people extremely angry and violent because of the frustration involved with losing. Yet people keep coming back more and more, and instead of quiting they might just take a break.

Originally posted by bishbosh
Originally posted by Classicstar

Darkfall is very good playable as a casual you don't have to be a hardcore playing that game thats a mis assumption about the game.

doesnt it take years / hours of botting to get your skills maxed in that game?


Although this law is obviously not something that will stick around without being amended, I would really really wish a law would be established to start holding internet websites and game servers accountable for bullying that happens on their [virtual] property.

League of Legends (or any ARTS / MOBA game) as well as some of the nastier FPS games, all harbor some of the most vicious bullying I've ever encountered before. Communities that even Mad Max would consider vile. Bullying which is incredibly [virtually] violent and excessive, especially against children.

If laws or lawsuits started happening to sue RIOT games (League of Legends) for harboring bullies and creating a bully-friendly bully-supporting atmosphere (and the fact these bullies can infinitely come back, never being banned as accounts are free and there are no IP bans) I'd be really happy. Not because I'm offended or I am sensitive; quite the opposite. I am sick, literally sick, of these people bullying children. Especially when many of these children may have bully problems elsewhere and telling someone to commit suicide online SHOULD be a crime.


I am an extreme anti-bully supporter and would absolutely love some of the heavy-hitters (League of Legends, for example) to be sued and held accountable for their inability and ineptitude at preventing bullying. A simple (awful, slow) tribunal system is far from a solution, and can actually be a FORM of bullying (voting to ban all cases without rational; tribunal trolling). Facebook would also be a much much heavier target and one that deserves as such.

Even if anti-bullying measures destroyed massive online communities like Facebook or League of Legends in some ways, it may be good for everyone that accountability, anonymity disappearing, or smaller communities replacing larger ones begin to result from it. Facebook would probably have tigher restrictions on anonymity and more accountability. League of Legends would be the same.

The result would actually NOT be anti-business, as these large businesses (RIOT, Facebook) would actually be required to keep logs of bullying, trolling, chat, etc. (they already do, so no biggie) and then when a subpoena hits their floor they instantly rat out the players and their private information.

This is exactly the same thing that internet companies have to do when torrenters are caught with illegal activity. They either fork over the logs to the prosecuting attorney, or they get sued for the actions of their guilty customer.


So I'd love to eventually see people suing others for violent verbal bullying and abuse (such as telling others to kill themselves) and suing RIOT until RIOT gives out that persons public information, in which their anonymity is suddenly lost and a civil or criminal case begins holding them ACCOUNTABLE for their actions.

The internet isn't a magical place where people become inhumane emotionless insensitive warrior-felons. The internet has people who are just as real as everywhere else. You should be held accountable for your actions, and if you want to tell others to kill themselves, you should be held accountable.

Too bad we don't allow the Scarlet Letter in our society :(

Branded B for Bully!

Originally posted by tixylix

Why is everyone so sensitive on the net? Get over yourselves...

People actually aren't that sensitive on the net.

The problem is that people like you act like everyone is suppose to be this rock-hardened felon internet user, completely justifying any trolling or hate-speech spewed out of your or any other real life troll's mouth.


When someone is offended by an incredibly offensive statement, which happens all the time on the internet (ranging from death wishes towards people's families or childre, to endless personal attacks or months of forum bullying) telling them "This is the internet, grow a thicker skin." is NOT, I repeat NOT a justification of one's actions.


A Jerk is still a Jerk, even in Jerk Town.

A bad person is still a bad person, even in Hell.

Telling someone "This is the Internet [A Jerk Felon Prison Town from Hell], don't get so offended." doesn't magically make you any less of a we-all-wish-you-were-hell-bound douchebag.

Originally posted by maskedweasel
Originally posted by Kyleran

If this passes I'm going to hell... er, jail I mean.

I'm pretty sure most people would... given they live in arizona.


Not sure how this would even work...  we already contend with moderators that are there to police their personal space of the internet,  so - what, they'll just round up the list of bans from, see who lives in arizona and then make some arrests?



Hopefully the moderators of every forum would be the FIRST to get banned. Those which trolled. That would mean many corrupted moderators elmininated, and ALL the moderators at to be imprisoned.

I'd fully support that law. is literally a bunch of young adults jacking off each other's ego's while thousands of teenager game-developer-wannabe's go because they think it's cool. All the adults stear clear from that website.

Originally posted by Hazelle

Calling in sick for a video game is a serious indicator that you have a problem balancing important things like real life from silly little things like games.

If you call in sick to play a game than it's unhealthy for you to be playing that game.

Or it's unhealthy for you to be working so much.

No one said that it is healthy to work 40+ hours every week, in typical 8 hour days, 5 days a week. In fact, some people would argue that it is unhealthy and taking off work to play games is a healthy move for most Americans.

No one ever said it was healthy, they merely said it was normal.


Please do yourself a favor and stop for a second, step out of these social norms binding you, and look at an abstract perspective of your own reality. Just because it's the "healthy norm" (a norm healthy people follow) doesn't make it healthy, it only makes it a norm.

Today I questioned if Intelligence is a real thing. I actually am leaning more on the side of intelligence not being real. That intelligence is actually nothing more than the development/health of the brain * learned information (knowledge).

I decided to start a blog about it here

Originally posted by oubers
Originally posted by Laughing-man

I was reading a thread based off a thread on MMO champion that was linked from WoW's site.

This thought occured to me, I myself remember back in the "good ol days" of how other players were very  helpful and how I myself was far more helpful to new players than I am now.

Did the success of MMO's, did the massive influx of players, devalue new players to us?

Do we treat new players worse because of simply HOW MANY there are?


If not then what is your theory?   I myself agree with the premise that people are less helpful to each other in MMOs than they were.



imho it is not exactly the number of people that matters here.....its the kind of people.

In the old days (going back to UO myself) all the people who played these games where adults, today the biggest group is kids who want to feel powerfull in this (anonymous) virtual world and they can get away with it......back in the old days of UO....people could call real people (GM's aka Game Masters) to resolve issues between players according the rules of the game.

These days when you report something you get an ingame mail saying (f*ck you) it is being looked in to, after that you dont even get feedback of what happend with it.

PS: I dont mean that all younger players are a-holes but lots of them love to get under the people's skin because you cant do anything about it......bullying isnt cool, but it still exists sadly. (one day they will grow up and realize it but that takes time).


Although I entirely agree it certainly feels that way, and I'd say it's more likely than not that you're right, but...

I am not entirely sure you are right to say that UO was mostly adults. When I played, I was a teenager, and I had a large amount of teenage friends who played as well. Even the oldest of my common friends were still only young adults in their early 20's, if that. Comparatively, finding a 30+ adult playing UO in its prime was rather difficult. It might have been because I was childish (being a child, of course) and I'm not saying I didn't know any adults, but the amount of 24-30 year olds were about as many as the 30+ year olds (including a 40+ and a 60+ year old!) and most were still in the age that is typical for gaming 13-28.


I'm NOT saying most weren't adults. I'm just saying that from what I know, it's POSSIBLE that most were actually young adults or teens, just the same as today. After all, I find just as many adults in WoW and SWTOR as I did in UO in its prime. This doesn't mean there were only kids in UO, but it DOES mean there are plenty of adults in WoW / SWTOR, and tons of them you can find online at any given moment.

So I'd argue that perhaps things haven't changed and there are just as many adults today as there were 10 years ago, and just as many kids. I believe we might only see more children in other games because there are MORE children (and MORE adults; more PEOPLE) but while adults are silent, children are typically vocal-- making there SEEM to be more children than adults, when there are simply more PEOPLE and the adults are just quieter.

I'm sure I wasn't the only teen or young adult setting off purple potions and throwing them at players and then running away to avoid the guards as I giggled to death.

Originally posted by 4bsolute

Did you really say "milk dry the niche market"?

I believe you did not mean to say "milk dry" - because that would mean a developers purpose is to extinguish all space left for possible customers.

On top of that you can not "milk dry" niches, because then niches would not be niches anymore.

The word "niche" means a smaller group who's interests are not shared by a majority.

To actively intervene with this market (which is no real existing market) would mean you transform a niche product/group of people to something popular.

If something is in a niche means, that means it is in a STATE of not-so-big interest. That state can alter. But you can not "milk dry a niche".

And again, on top of that "milk dry" is a negative term of abusing. Why would you do something like that? Are you an american economist? LOL

You are correct in saying that "milky dry" is a negative term of abusing. That is EXACTLY why I used it. If you don't get it, explaining won't help. It's quite obvious why I stated asking why a AAA company refuses to milk dry the niche market.
 Another equally successful negative term of abusing would be to parasite a piece of the market until it is shriveled and dead.


I'd also like to inform you that "niche" doesn't necessarily mean small. Niche Marketing, which is what people refer to when they talk about business and niche MMORPG design concepts, includes the "Mainstream niche".

Mainstream is typically very large. Also, a niche market can be quite large, or else MTV wouldn't be so popular or successful.


"Large" and "Small" portions are entirely self-defined as well, so there is little meaning in self-proclaiming a design concept to be "niche", as if it could not be successful or profitable. What is "Large" in one context could be Tiny in another. A market being "large" or "small" is rather irrelevant (not to mention vague in definition). If there was a universal amount of market that is the 'whole' then large or small would be better defined. Unfortunately, one cannot merely say "All MMORPG gamers" make up all of the market. WoW gamers aren't even necessarily 100% of the market. The % of actual gamers in the market is impossible to predict or measure. Even so, comparing to a game as big as WoW may be irrational definition in business when games do not reach WoW-level of populations and instead should be compared to realistic population expectancies. Even so, the WoW figure is blown out of proportion with the large majority being Chinese players who don't even play or pay the same way.

In the end, "Large" or "Small" needs a context, and that context is not universally defined, thus "niche" cannot be universally defined unless it is acceptably small by all context's definitions. This is certainly not so, as EVE does quite well.

Originally posted by Konfess

For most people being polite and helpful is a sham.  Eventually we all revert to our true colors.

I find most people in WoW are helpful.

Even a lot of the trolls who insult you will actualy help you out if you /tell them "Seriously though, can you help?"


I am itching to do real scientific research just to prove the overwhelming amount of players who are helpful in WoW, just to prove a point.

Unfortunately, I don't believe that facts would actually convince anyone differently of what they already forsee.

Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by LeegOfChldrn
Originally posted by nariusseldon


The minimum entrance fee to make even a decent MMO is high. You have to have server, back-end, game client and so on. So you need at least millions, if not 10s of millions to get have a prayer.

The initial investment is too high for small investors.

Plus, the risk is high. There are much BETTER options (like single player games) for small, independent developers.

This actually isn't true.

There are people who have developed MMORPG's (albeit crappy ones, or unpopular ones) for free or relatively low cost (< a few thousand).

If you don't believe me, there are actually MMORPG's made using engines like TORQUE or UNITY, with placeholder graphics sold by said company, and they actually are active MMORPG's.


You don't need any money to make any game. You need the money to hire people to make it for you, make it quickly, make it with flash graphics, do complex mathmatics for physics, e

We are talking about commercially viable games serving PAYING customers .. even niche ones.

You can't make any money, even from a niche market, with placeholder graphics, and no content. Look at all the mods of various games done on the cheap .. 99.9% are not viable commercial products.

You can't make money with bad graphics and no content?

Wow, I guess someone should email MINECRAFT and tell them they aren't commercially viable.

My god, QUICK, inform Notch that his money is not real! SOUND THE ALARMS! Minecraft is actually highly unsuccessful!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


^ a post as ridiculously asinine as yours.

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