In summary: "improve CE's by giving us more crap." I guess I can see...where that would be nice? Collector's do tend to like lots of extra crap, and good for them!

In a way, games are already starting to do this ,by adding in-game gifts with CE's now. They give you in-game schwag like mounts, pets, better inventory, special buffs, and other such things, which, if you really like a game and want ALL THE THINGS, are pretty nice to have available.

I think a game that was advertised as "for adults" even without boobs, would draw in more kids and teens than any other demographic. Likely drug addicts as well, until they sell their computers for more cough syrup and choreboys. It's just how they roll. So instead you have to find games that have youth-reppelant features like: lots of text that you actually need to read, a lack of faqs/youtube guides, older with dated graphics, strategy, little to no blood splatter animations, no guns, no naked (or large and bouncing as you run) boobs, difficult leveling grind, and it should be b2p or subscription.

I played the WoW trial first a couple months ago, then I played the Rift trial. I'd played f2p mmos since 2005, including several hotkey ones.

Coming in to WoW as a new trial player, my first impression was basically, "I would really like to play this game soon but this p2p client is taking forever, and even though I followed their instructions, I am still having to restart the client every half hour! Even f2p games have direct downloads!" Eventually I got it dl'd enough to start playing, and I was first greeted with...some fairly ugly character models, the new races are apparently a lot better, but those were locked to me. Eventually I picked a human character and was greeted at the starting area by a bunch of npc's going through the same motions of killing wolves over and over again without doing any damage or dying themselves, making the same sounds over and over again. While not exactly surprising in an older game, it was...kind of embrassing to be honest. Like finally meeting this really popular person you hear so much about, that all your friends really like, and there she is...flashing her yellowed granny panties at you after you've just been introduced.

But I got over it and went about questing and...well, there's not a lot to say about that. the questing was the kind found in pretty much any other mmorpg I've played and it was pretty easy to get the hang of. The world that I went through was okay. It wasn't a terrible game, but nothing really sold it to me. I'd played games like this before, and for free. A friend told me that it was because all those f2p games copied WoW, and I can see that. And good for WoW! But the claim of "first!" couldn't really justify me subbing and buying the expansions.

I actually wasn't going to even bother playing the trial of Rift after that, because if WoW was what people meant by a "AAA" MMORPG, then I'd be happy enough skipping AAA's altogether, and playing the bunches of free MMOs available instead.

But one day I was a little bored, and time seemed to crawl due to an upcoming open beta I was looking forward to...and I decided to try Rift while I waited.

The download only took an hour.

Every class was available to me.

Good character models. Not APB:R, but not clunky or super limited either.

I am greeted in a lab after being raised from the dead in order to go back in time to help stop the destruction of the world. The NPCs are killing stuff, they help me if they're nearby, they die if I don't help them. And suddenly I'm playing a game that I don't feel like I've played over and over again, and then two days passed, I'd hit the trial cap, and hellyeah I was gonna sub.

The WoW trial felt a bit like they were throwing a dog a bone. And since then, I hear they've improved it, but it was too little too late, because the Rift trial wooed me. To the point that, if one had never played either before, it's difficult to understand why they'd pick up WoW now, rather than Rift, other than the "my friends are playing this" social aspect.

Originally posted by WhySoShort

All this said, I think an MMO with PvE that you can "win" or "beat" is poorly designed. 

Pretty much this.

in answer to the topic question: the point of cash shop-dissatisfaction for me, is when I feel I have to buy something in order to enjoy playing.

The cash shop is only as significant as you make it. Gear drops pretty easily, so for me, upgrading to 10+ has been more about farming crude onyx than using the freebie jellies still sitting in my inventory. I actually do have a fair amount of nx from playing Maplestory (I like having a looting pet when I play) and Vindictus (inventory space) and have yet to feel the need to spend any on Dragon Nest. Now this could be because of the nx leveling rewards, so I may be in a different frame of mind if those go away with the Sept. 28 official launch. (If so....well played, Nexon.)

First: small children rarely see things as "commericialized sell-outs" so you have a good point there. It's about perspective.

Second: I disagree that physical age is the issue, as I think it's more about gaming age. Because let's face it, the longer you play mmos (or anything really) the greater your risk is of catching cynicism, jaded mentality, and raging entitlement. Fortunately, these can be kept at bay by a willingness to chillout, relax, and just play games for fun without having to constantly compare them to a nostalgic ideal.

Moot point. Consoles have been trying to become PCs for years.

Originally posted by Jimmac

Originally posted by rissies

Originally posted by Jimmac

 We need something both new and better, not just new.

It isn't us. It's them.

"Better" is a subjective term in this case (unless going by player/profit data to measure how "good" a game is) so it actually is you. Not them.

You don't understand this conversation if you really think you just made some kind of a point. Whether the word "better" in my sentence was used subjectively doesn't affect my seceond paragraph you quoted.

This whole conversation is subjective opinion. I think mmorpg's are of much lower quality now than the big titles from long ago. I think gaming developers are making games that are worse. I think they could make games that I like, and that players such as myself like, but they choose not to for various reasons. My conclusion that games are worse now and that it is the gaming company's fault can only be based on subjective opinion. None of that at all leads to the conclusion that "it is me."

Please explain in great detail the logic behind your statement that a subjective use of the word "better" equals that the problem is me as opposed to the problem being the crappy games developers are developing. I cannot see how you made that jump in logic.

You were stating an opinion as fact. (Which you have gone on to correct by using the phrase "I think..." in your response.) I had assumed that the second portion of your statement was in reference to the first (games are not getting better, the fault of this lies with "them" rather than our own personal perspective.) If I had assumed wrongly and the "It isn't us. It's them." is in reference to a completely different topic, then I do apologize.

Hey now, I like Rift's world and storyline, I find it way more engaging that most of the generic fantasy backdrops you find in MMORPGs.

But anyways.

Dear solo-ruined-my-game-QQers: go ahead and blame solo players for your MMO woes. Then, once your done, blame those who don't roleplay while playing MMORPGs. Then, when they're out of the picture, blame those who aren't in the same age bracket as yourself. Or have the same amount of free time as yourself. Or financial status as yourself.

But really? If you don't feel a game is social enough? Go try Farmville, I hear it's great. Huge community. Stop expecting games to go back in time to their so-called "golden years" just so you don't have to ball up and actively seek out in-game friends on your own.

Originally posted by Murugan

Yes solo players RUIN MMO's, you have no business playing an MMO if you are not willing to group with others you are a leech and are taking up the spot on limited servers of someone who actually could play with others/contribute to the community.

 

Solo players make me sick.

Yeah, MMO's should totally follow a socialist regime.

I think another factor to the "dying" social aspect of MMOs is that fact there are a lot of MMOs avilable now. If people don't like a game or get bored? Rather than just sticking with it out of lack of choices, they move onto the next game. There's a lot of options out there now, and more coming in every month.

But not really, it's like the console wars ~ or 50 cent vs Kanye ~ blu ray vs HD ~ and all those sorts of shenanigans. Bsaically it creates a larger ruckus over the products involved, and the companies releaseing the games will get a chance to say that they are the "winner" ~ not that any will concede to being the "loser" ~ just they'll be spinning their game's strong points against the immediate competition, even moreso than usual. "Best PVP in 2012" ~ "Largest Launch of 2012" ~ "Most Critically Acclaimed of 2012" ~ "'Beats the competion in crafting by a mile...' - some buy with a blog on a website, 2012"

It's not a bad thing, really. To go into a big hype-fest like this, the publishers have to have a metric crapton of confidence that they'll be able to take something from the competition, rather than the other way around.

also: 2011 has really been a big year for f2p games ~

Videogames in general are easier now than they were, not just MMORPGS (though there's always, of course, shining exceptions.) Since gaming is now more mainstream and being treated as full-on, consumer driven, businesses - game devs end up having to listen public and publisher feedback, as they're trying to draw in a larger audience, often by making the overall games easier (and hopefully adding in hard mode where they can.) Which isn't to say that difficult games don't come out, they're just more of a niche genre now rather than the industry standard.

Originally posted by Jimmac

 We need something both new and better, not just new.

It isn't us. It's them.

"Better" is a subjective term in this case (unless going by player/profit data to measure how "good" a game is) so it actually is you. Not them.

Permadeath? I scoff at this bland notion. A Song of Ice and Fire has much better options than that.

It already has a table top rpg and a card game ~ and I believe at least one vidya game in the works, so...it could happen, though it would take years to come out and we can only hope that the internet with all its mmorpgs doesn't get 2012'd.

(To be honest, I do think it would be a better mmorpg than single-player console game)

I'm fine with quests, they've just been dumbed down a lot ~ so they content is limited to a few types of scenarios and their main challenge is basically either the patience it takes to kill 1000 thingies (at worst imo) or just not dying (better, but it's kinda cheap to only use high level mob levels to create a challenge) ~ or inbetween (basically no challenge at all and you're done in a couple minutes)

And I am guilty as hell of taking advantage of dumbed down quest systems, because if there's quest auto-routing? I will use it. I will use te hell out of it.

I think, oddly enough, Maplestory has a good (though underused) thing going with it's jump quests. They can be annoying as hell, but they can definitely offer a certain amount of challenge (and frustration, and tears) ~ and I think it would be nice if more mmorrpgs had platformer-style side-quests. Not an entire game built around them, but here and there.

Another quest style that would offer challenge, but would likely be limited to more "niche" games, would be getting rid of quest icons and the simple summary (go kill x many of the x's over by x) and instead have players be given a problem/situation from NPCs and then try to figure out the correct solution (what's needed and what to do with the what and where to get them) ~ and shifting them on a regular basis as well. So maybe the grocer was running low on oil on monday, but on tuesday everything';s fine with him, move on, but next sunday he's being needy again. Eventually patterns and walkthroughs would emerge, but as I said..it would be pretty niche, since it's basically the same as old RPGs (which were pretty niche even in their heyday) ~ so I think a lot of players wouldn't want to spoil it by cheating.

I just dislike seeing games c/ping human/dwarf/elvish race characteristics from the generic fantasy handguide. Ear shape is purley cosmetic, backstory and homelands are not.

It would be nice if the "peak" he was talking about was the game itself, rather than various sets of numbers. maybe it was just the context of the conversation, but when I saw the...

'World of Warcraft has not reached its peak'

I was thinking I was going to read about how they were going to up their game to compete actively with the upcoming AAA's.

Dragon Nest is a pretty fun game, has one of the most friendly upgrade systems I've seen ~ and the characters (even some of the monsters) are downright charming. Can't wait for Saint's Haven to be avilable ~ !

Yes, instituting your own death penalty would make things inconvenient and hard. Imagine that.

But anyways:  http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/06/09/e3-2011-first-look-at-wizardry-online/

I think more may simply give players the option to play in a perma death mode, like DDO or Shaiya.

However, you can also just institute your own perma-death play style in any mmorpg, you can pull the cord on a downed character just as easily as the game itself could.