Originally posted by dubyahite

Originally posted by Cameron27

I've commented on this before, but TOR doesn't feel any more massive than Diablo 2. I mean the group max is 4 players. Its a MORPG not MMOPRG.

The group max is 24 players. Most games group max is usually 40 or less. I wouldn't say 40 is MASSIVE. What is massive about these games is the amount of people playing concurrently in the same game world.

Is there some game out there I don't know of where you can have 2,000 people in a party? LOL

EVE Online fleets are capped at 256, and that is probably the game with the largest sized groups. Of course there are many battles with more than one fleet.

Anyway, is SWTOR an MMORPG? Of course it is! Are there MMORPG's which are more massive? Definatly.

However, so far, I think SWTOR is doing exactly what it is supposed to be doing, and what we expect it to be doing.

It won't be a freeworld sandbox like SWG Pre-CU-NGE or EVE Online, but it sure feels Star Wars, has a good story and a nice look and feel, it may not hold on to me as long as EVE did ( and to some extent still does ), but I am sure I will enjoy myself playing it, and when I finish the content, I can always go back to EVE :p

Finally, since it is a theme park already, LA can't mess up the sandbox :p It is time to let it go ( SWG pre CU-NGE ) and move on.

Dune ( From Frank Herbert ).

Originally posted by darthsihoron

The difference between RMAH and gambling is very simple. While winning money at gambling is based purely on chance ,winning money on RMAH  is also based on some economics and business rulles ( example: a fair price / offer and demand / rarity /etc) Thus if you put a good item for huge price no one will buy it ever. The main problem with RMAH is that it destroys the boundries between gaming and real life... Using real money to buy game upgrades is ruining the fairness of the game because not every user can afford that . So some players will start with an advantage that has nothing to do with their skills,intelligence or time played just with their bank accounts.

I completely agree with that, but too bad this is the way mmorpg's / online RPG's are evolving. The thing is, if you really want to ban all illegal RMT'ing, then you would need for everyone to have electronic ID's and you'd have to use these to be able to play.

This would seriously undermine the freedom we have on the Internet.

It is a balance between freedom and security, China, Australia, Dictatorships, Nanny states, be carefull with what you wish for.

Quote :

"Justice Min Il-young said that trading game money for cash should be punished only in cases in which it is obtained by online gambling games such as poker or other card games."

This clearly sets a precedent don't you think?

Also :

"Meanwhile, a court ruled in September of last year that profits from the trading of "cyber money" should be subject to 10 percent value added tax (VAT)."

So clearly, if they tax it, they are allowing it.

Furthermore in the original law from 2007 on RMT'ing, items and gold are looked upon as equivalent.

Also the law from 2007 tries to combat sweatshops, but that is not what we are talking about here.

So really I think Blizzard has a good case, even in South Korea.

After doing some more research the plot thickens.

So it was not allowed to do RMT in South Korea :

http://terranova.blogs.com/terra_nova/2007/05/s_koreas_bancan.html

A few years later the Supreme Court destroys this law and make RMT legal, except if it is based on gambling :

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2010/01/116_58775.html

http://koreajoongangdaily.joinsmsn.com/news/article/article.aspx?aid=2915126

However if you read this carefully, it may be on the edge. While I personally feel that items in the Diablo series are mostly found by skill, there is of course luck involved, while I personally don't view this as gambling, it may fall under the gambling law.

So the question is how exactly are loot drops done in Lineage? I haven't play Lineage long enough and too long ago to remember.

Here is a link to what this all started, there is a lot of speculation here.

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/biz/2011/09/123_95415.html

First of all, I really doubt that unidentified items would be allowed on the RMAH, Blizzard won't be that dumb, if they would allow that then it would be looked at it as gambling in most of the world.

Secondly, while thinking a bit about insertion fees and googling about it, they are allowed for Ebay, so they should be allowed for the RMAH as well. I do personally feel these should be token charges, to avoid spamming the auction house with crap, not a high sum that may discourage a legit seller.

Furthermore, from what I have read, RMT is alowed in South Korea, so I don't see the problem there.

Interesting stuff all of this. Honestly I hope Blizzard will succeed, because I prefer this system over Microtransactions directly from the game companies and illegal RMT from scammers and botters.

Now there is another thing a friend of mine mentioned, what if you buy a dupe with real money and Blizzard zaps it? Or wont they zap dupes? Now then that would be pretty bad as well, so how are they going to fix that?

Originally posted by Ceridith

Originally posted by CyberWiz

Originally posted by Loke666

Still, Blizzard is too greedy in this case, the whole idea is just terrible, particularly for a game like Diablo. I used to think that SOE stations servers were bad but there you can at least choose to play on anothe server.

In a perfect world I would agree with you, but with all the illegal RMT going on, why should Blizzard not get a piece of the pie and nerf some illegal sellers while they are at it.

I hope that by having legal RMT, Blizzard will have the funds ( funds from D3 itself, so that it is profitable ) and the willingness to put in the effort to elliminate the botters and scammers as much as possible. They will have a vested interest in keeping the game healthy, unlike DiabloII where they have nothing to gain.

The thing is that even without the RMAH you do not have the choice to play RMT free because of all the illegal RMT.

The only other way to combat illegal RMT ( besides legal RMT ) is with a subscription fee, where Blizzard would have another way of funding updates, adn the fight against botters, scammers and RMT.

But if you look at WoW, where they really have put some effort in combatting this, they also failed.

So the pragmatic solution is :

- Make RMT legal

- Do it yourself ( Blizzard ) and make profit from it

- Use this profit to combat the rest of the illegal RMT market, together with the scammers and botters.

In a perfect world, illegal narcotics wouldn't be such a problem. But it's going to happen no matter how hard the US government tries, so why shouldn't they get a piece of the narcotics trade and compete against the illegal sellers?

Well you have a good point, and in fact alcohol and tobacco are a good example of regulated legal narcotics in the US. While Marihuana is an example in Holland and Belgium.

Yes, I realize that's a slippery slope argument at it's core, but my point is that one shouldn't forgo one's own principles simply because it's inconvenient and less profitable.

Besides, how exactly does Blizzard legitimizing RMT actually handle any of the ills that come from it? People's accounts will still be hijacked for their items, players will still scam other players, players will still have a monetary incentive to exploit bugs, hack the game, bot, etc. So Blizzard 'getting in on the RMT action' isn't actually combating any of the downsides to RMT, it's just shifting where some of the profit of it goes.

By legalizing RMT there will be at least a percentage of items that are gained by playing the game is it is meant to be played, so the AH will at least contain a good part of legal items, and most likely also a good part of illegal items. Blizzard can then spend the money earned to improve the game and combat the botters and scammers.

And that's why I think it's a purely greed motivated move on Blizzard's part. By making RMT acceptable they're by association also promoting all of the bad behavior associated with RMT. But they don't care, because they're making money off of it.

Well, again, straight microtransactions are worse imho ( and the only alternative for a F2P title, unless you go freemium ), because in that case they are conjuring items out of thin air, and the game no longer has to be played.

To conclude, I would prefer that Diablo3 would be a subscription game, with an even playing field, but nowadays I guess that is out of the question, so I prefer legal RMT between players over Microtransactions within a cash shop.

Originally posted by lizardbones

 

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Originally posted by Loke666

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Originally posted by CyberWiz
 

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If Blizzard implemented a Real Money Player Store(tm) system, instead of an auction, South Korea would still be considering a ban on the game. The issue is not the auction house. The issue is that the game itself is a form of gambling. When you kill a monster (pull a lever) you get a random drop (chance at earning money). You can't earn real world money by gambling in South Korea.

** edit **
@CyberWiz - gambling is an amoral activity; it is neither good nor evil. South Korea is concerned only with the effect on society, and they do not believe it has any positives. So it's illegal.

With D3, it just depends on how they view the game. Is is like mining for gold or gambling with a computer? So far, they have taken the view that video games and mmorpg in particular are like gambling with a computer. It's fine if you never take your virtual earnings and make real world money out of it, but as soon as you make real world money out of it, it's gambling.

 

Okay so South Korea considers any random drops in video games virtual gambling and you are not allowed to cash in in RL cash.

I think they are besides the point tho with their gambling law, because wether it is virtual or real, random or not random, it stays just as addictive. And it is the addiction that is the real problem in South Korea.

Oh well, we will see how this goes.

Originally posted by Loke666

Still, Blizzard is too greedy in this case, the whole idea is just terrible, particularly for a game like Diablo. I used to think that SOE stations servers were bad but there you can at least choose to play on anothe server.

In a perfect world I would agree with you, but with all the illegal RMT going on, why should Blizzard not get a piece of the pie and nerf some illegal sellers while they are at it.

I hope that by having legal RMT, Blizzard will have the funds ( funds from D3 itself, so that it is profitable ) and the willingness to put in the effort to elliminate the botters and scammers as much as possible. They will have a vested interest in keeping the game healthy, unlike DiabloII where they have nothing to gain.

The thing is that even without the RMAH you do not have the choice to play RMT free because of all the illegal RMT.

The only other way to combat illegal RMT ( besides legal RMT ) is with a subscription fee, where Blizzard would have another way of funding updates, adn the fight against botters, scammers and RMT.

But if you look at WoW, where they really have put some effort in combatting this, they also failed.

So the pragmatic solution is :

- Make RMT legal

- Do it yourself ( Blizzard ) and make profit from it

- Use this profit to combat the rest of the illegal RMT market, together with the scammers and botters.

Originally posted by lizardbones

 

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Originally posted by just1opinion

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Originally posted by Cavod
What really gets me about the whole thing is do you actually own the item when you purchase it?
 
Because like all MMOs already do, I'm sure Blizzard will retain the right of ownership to all virtual data.
 
So how can you possible sell something you do not own? 
 
I see lawsuits in the future of the RMAH.

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You have a good point.  That's exactly why gold selling is illegal, so what makes this different?  Either both should be illegal or neither.

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No, they don't have a good point. You're not buying and selling a virtual item; you do not own the virtual item. You're buying and selling a license to use the virtual item within the game.

Also, gold selling isn't illegal. Not even in South Korea. Gold selling violates the terms of service of most games in the United States. It's illegal to gamble online in South Korea, so anything you earn in a game that's like gambling (random drops) cannot be sold for real world currency. If you're not gambling, then it's perfectly legal to buy and sell virtual currency in South Korea.

 

After thinking more about this I can see the argument how D3 with the RMAH may be considered gambling if you really stretch it. You buy the box ( you put money into it ), you play the chance game ( killing monsters and hoping something will drop ) and then you may or may not cash in thru the AH.

However, if you look at it from a moral point of view, I do not consider it gambling.

You do not put money into it directly for getting the items, you "work" for it by slaying monsters. Compare it to the gold rush in the States, you went out looking for gold and you had a chance to find some. After that you could go auction your gold and with some luck you sell it for a good price.

Paying for the box is paying for the gameplay, not the chance of getting items and putting them on the AH, I feel that is stretching it.

So to me, from a moral point of view, it does not feel like gambling in D3 / RMAH.

The only thing I have a moral problem with is the fixed listing price, because there you put in money which you loose if you do not sell, and thus you are in effect gambling.

Originally posted by Requiamer

 

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Originally posted by TGSOL

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Originally posted by lthompson94

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Originally posted by just1opinion

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Originally posted by st4t1ck

Most video game auctions house's have the buy now feature. how can it be named gambling if i click a button pay the cash and obtain an item. 

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I think what you're not "getting" is the correlation to gambling.  It's gambling for the SELLER, not the buyer in this case.  The seller has to pay listing fees and possibly a separate item fee (I don't think we know this yet) and then they have the CHANCE to sell the item.  Essentially....I can see whereas people could look at that as gambling.

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When you take a collectable to an auction, you have to pay to have it entered and auctioned.  It might not sell.  This happens every day in every state in every city and has no correlation to gambling.
When you run an ad to sell something in the newspaper, it might not sell, but you paid for the ad.  This is not gambling.
Sure "you took a gamble," that doesn't make it GAMBLING in a legal sense of the word.
Please people give up, it's not frickin gambling. 

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As someone who doesn't like the RMAH or what it represents, I have to agree. I just don't see how this is gambling. It seems you REALLY have to twist the definition to even come close to making it apply.

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I fail to see how it is not gambling. The simple virtual aspect of the goods make it gambling since you have no real value put into any of the objects. You don't know if tomorrow it will still exist, maintain its value or whatever, a game could close tomorrow and have your money sink in lala land. Their value is highly volatile. And it is a kind of volatile no other product can reach, even stuff that have no reality like a book or an idea isn't as volatile as a virtual item.

I do not agree that the virtual aspect of the goods make it gambling. That would mean that regular microtransactions, bought directly from a game company, would also be gambling.

You invest real money and time in every mmorpg, and you always have the risk that the game gets closed, that does not equal gambling imho.

For me gambling is putting money into something with the possibility of gaining more money based on chance.

Now I also acknowledge that various governments widened their legislation to cover all the angles, and that the RMAH may fall into grey areas.

All tha being said, it would be a real shame if the RMT AH gets canned and a microtransaction scheme would replace it ...

Originally posted by sldrop

Originally posted by Lanfea

if you are really interested in this subject and open to some very good arguments, take your time and read this:

http://daeity.blogspot.com/2011/09/diablo-3-and-illegal-online-gambling.html

 

and i like to add that there is another legal problem with the RMAH within D3 if we compare it with an internet portal like eBay. you have to be 18, at least in many european countries, to sell on eBay. so it might happen that blizzard is forced by law to ensure that every user of the RMAH is over 18. not really a problem on the first look, but do you know the administrative work behind confirming the age and what permissions and security measures you need as a company to get a hand on this data and this for every damn country?

 

to be honest it would be a huge failure if blizzards law department didn't thought about this before they implemented the RMAH into their game.

nice read

http://daeity.blogspot.com/2011/08/rmah-is-gambling-indeed.html

By changing loot tables and random chance algorithms, Blizzard can alter volume. Volume or rarity = more listings = gambling by the players (but this is not a gamble for the house) = more listing fee revenue (the house always wins)

Selling an item is a game of chance, there's high risk involved, there's monetary loss involved due to random chance, and it's gambling. If the Auction House is changed so that there is only a cut after a successful auction, then it is not gambling. On a related note, EBay charges fees  however the fee is refunded if your item does not sell.

The article was indeed interesting, although I don't agree with the author's conclusion that in moral terms RMT between players using an auction house = gambling.

However he did make a point that charging a listing fee regardless of selling the item or not, resembles gambling, so on that point I stand corrected, and Blizzard should take that measure out.

Originally posted by just2duh

 LOL that's rich, considering mostly all illegal gold/item selling that plague our MMO's come from Korea/China.

This :p

At least with Blizzard it is out in the open, and they could tax it if they want.

Originally posted by Ceridith

Originally posted by lizardbones

 

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Originally posted by kitarad
Houses get put on the auction blocks too and unlike poker there is an actual virtual item here that you spent time getting. It is not based on chance. They will probably tax it.

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People keep bringing this up. Nobody is transferring ownership of anything. Players are not actually buying virtual items. In theory, the government might attempt to assess a sales tax for services, but these are private sales between individuals, over the internet, probably across regional lines. No sales taxes will be taken.

However, in the United States, if you earn money, you may need to submit a personal income tax form, even if you are underage. If you earn more than $600 a year, and you have other income (from a job) where you would be paying income tax, you'll need to put that money earned on your income tax forms. That's where the government is going to collect money.

** edit **
Also, the South Korean government banned another game type thing that wasn't a gambling machine. They banned it because people acted like it was a gambling thing. All that's needed is for the people who would be playing to treat the RMAH like a way to gamble or as if they were gambling, and the South Korean government will ban it.

 

When push comes to shove, it's the government instated law that determines what ownership of virtual goods for players, not an EULA. Many nations are in the process of writing new legislation pertaining to virtual ownership of goods and taxation there of. Governments could very well give ownership and property rigths to players, but the catch is that they will be subject to taxes. And with good reason, it's a quickly growing industry that has so far largely escaped taxation.

That's the fire that Blizzard is playing with by legitimizing RMT in Diablo 3. When it was against the EULA to pariticpate in any form of RMT, the strong case could be made agaisnt ownership of virtual property by players. When the opposite occurs, and sale of virtual goods for real money between parties occurs but is avidly promoted by Blizzard, it implies a level of ownership on behalf of the seller -- you can't legally sell something you do not own.

Time will tell how it unfolds, but I can't help but feel that Blizzard is shooting themselves in the foot, not to mention the rest of the industry, for their RMAH money grab.

Well Blizzard may be shooting themselves in the foot with this in regards to legislation, but I for one applaud them for this bold move.

I hate microtransactions a lot more than I hate player run RMT. With player run RMT at least someone is still playing the game.

Originally posted by Wizardry

Originally posted by SaintViktor

Looks like it could be the begining of the end of the RMAH. Stay tuned.....

 

Source: http://diablo.incgamers.com/blog/comments/korea-may-ban-d3-over-real-money-trading

I commend them and was just the other day i was saying that perhaps our fuiture lies with Asian developers.We are talking not only common sense but morals.Some of these big develoeprs like Blizzard are so entrneched with their fanbase,they feel they can do whatever they want,it is time the players let them know we are not their slaves or sheep to be herd around.

This would be a HUGE step for gaming if a giant like Blizzard was turned down face first  and told we don't like your ideas.We need SOE to be slapped around a bit as well,we are headed down a VERY bad path that leads to total nonsense when comes to gaming, a casual past time.

So our future lies with Asian devs who basically invented microtransactions and RMT? Great.

Between microtransactions and player run RMT I will choose the latter every time.

Originally posted by SaintViktor

Originally posted by thegypsyking

Originally posted by RefMinor
I am surprised the US will allow what is potentially a gambling shop.

The RMAH has nearly zero similarities with gambling, that's a pitiful comparison.  All we can do is wait to see how Blizzard creates what could be the new MMO standard, or the fatal flaw with D3.

 Oh really, then tell us what it is then because bidding on items on an AH is gambling.

Lol, okay, so bidding on items is gambling? Gee, then Ebay is the biggest gambling site on the web, strange that no one ever think about that.

I am a purist at heart, and I think a game should be a game and therefore I think RMT and microtransactions are to be avoided in games, because then you are no longer playing the game but paying to win.

And in that regard, Blizzard's WoW is one of the few examples left of an mmorpg that you don't have to pay to win.

However, the sad truth is that if Blizzard can not control the illegal RMT, no one can. They can do their best to minimize it as a whole and after that minimize it's impact.

Minimizing it's impact is what is key here, and by allowing players to legally buy and sell their items, a whole lot of the scamming and account hacking will be avoided. Every item a player buys legit from another legit player, is an item less for the botters and scammers.

Now labeling the D3 Auction House as gambling, especially by gamers here on the forums who should know to some extent what they are talking about, is a travesty of the truth. The only reason I can think of why someone would slander D3 and the RMT AH like that is because they have a hidden agenda to try to remove the RMT from the AH at all costs, grasping at any straw they can find.

Clearly they way it works in practice is that you "work" for your loot, and after a hard days "work" you can sell the stuff on the AH for RL cash.

The argument that you pay for the box is rediculous, but if that is the only real argument, then make the game free to play. At that time it is nothing more than a second job, like hunting deer and hoping to find a fine specimen of antlers.

Hmm,

But if WoW would be killed, then were would all the noobs go?

Let's pray it won't get killed any time soon :p

Originally posted by MertzaSkertz

 

 

It is also in the progression. The talent tree has been severely dumbed down and it is pretty straight forward which gear is the best rather than having a huge line of gear that is equally balanced.

 Agreed, the talent tree was severely gutted, which is a shame, it really gave players choices, and I really tried to do various different builds, often off the beaten path.